2010 Tiger Jag, yay or nay?

[Necrias]

I was going to wait till this season's babies hatch and get a coastal tiger jag from Anthony Cappionetto, but it would sure be nice to cut a year or two off this breeding project...

However, I don't have "the eye" yet for carpets like I do burms, but this looks like a sub-par male that wouldn't be the greatest fr breeding purposes, what do you guys think? Jump on this or wait? He's priced at $600.

[youngster]

YAY! He looks awesome, but in the end, do whatever you think is right.

[Necrias]

YAY! He looks awesome, but in the end, do whatever you think is right.

I agree he looks awesome, if he was just going to be a pet I would be all over it, but don't want to flood the market with yet more "average" looking carpets. I hate seeing when people jump on a cheap JCP and it ends up not getting nearly as bright as they expected.

[Trent]

Thats a sweet carpet.

[red ink]

What are you trying to get out of the breeding plans?

How do you want the hatchies to look?

What are you planning to pair it with if you get it?

[millertime89]

I'm not exactly sure what a great looking tiger jag is supposed to look like. Especially since its a coastal. I personally think he looks great, but morelia have not been my focus as of late.

[Necrias]

What are you trying to get out of the breeding plans?

How do you want the hatchies to look?

What are you planning to pair it with if you get it?

Will likely be paired with:

Bredli (some of the coolest Jags I've seen have been Bredlis)

JCP (mainly to see how the tiger gene affects the pattern)

and either a Tiger Jag sib or Caramel Coastal

Based on the look of the offspring I will decide where to go from there

[Caylan]

With proper quarantine I don't seem him doing much good this season, but no reason not to pick him up for next. He looks really good, and I don't know the market for a tiger jag, but with jags still around 200, the price doesn't even seem bad. Worth looking into more in my opinion.

[red ink]

Will likely be paired with:

Bredli (some of the coolest Jags I've seen have been Bredlis)

JCP (mainly to see how the tiger gene affects the pattern)

and either a Tiger Jag sib or Caramel Coastal

Based on the look of the offspring I will decide where to go from there

K thanks for the info... based on the info you have given (and I hope this next bit does'nt offend you). It seems to be a trial and error part on the breeding. In which case "if" your just checking to see what it brings out in those combinations then I would say YES to that JAG as it looks healthy enough. As all it seems is your after the jag gene.

[Necrias]

With proper quarantine I don't seem him doing much good this season, but no reason not to pick him up for next. He looks really good, and I don't know the market for a tiger jag, but with jags still around 200, the price doesn't even seem bad. Worth looking into more in my opinion.

My Bredli won't be ready till next year anyway, so it would work out perfectly. From what I've seen, hatchlings go for 500-800 depending on quality, and since this male is relatively close to breeding that is a very fair price.

K thanks for the info... based on the info you have given (and I hope this next bit does'nt offend you). It seems to be a trial and error part on the breeding. In which case "if" your just checking to see what it brings out in those combinations then I would say YES to that JAG as it looks healthy enough. As all it seems is your after the jag gene.

Not offended one bit. I am going for the jag gene for three reasons:

1) I love the look of some jags. Some are absolutely breathtaking and I would like one simply as a display animal.

2) I love highly variable clutches. Since both the Tiger gene and the Jag gene are so highly variable, especially in the case of integrades, I expect some awesome clutches. Hell I almost picked up a Green Granite burm at the local petshop today to pair with my Hypo Albino just so I could breed the triple hets back and see the huge variability!

3) I can make more money off them. I know how bad that sounds, but I am working with very limited space, so I need to maximize efficiency if I can't maximize production. I'm not in this purely for the money, I love the hobby as a whole, but considering how much time and money I have invested I would like to see some return.

Thanks for the responses guys, I will start the process of asking questions to the breeder.

[Will0W783]

He is a very clean tiger coastal jag- the jaguar gene originates in the coastal locale of carpet python. A pure coastal jaguar (tiger or otherwise) will have a creamy, buttermilk-like background. They will not have the blinding neon yellow of jungle jags or IJ jags.
My advice- if you want to keep pure locale lines, as in make more coastal jaguars, then this is a very nice snake. However, if you are looking to produce bright yellow babies, then you will need to invest in a very high quality jungle carpet as well, and most likely won't get bright babies out of the first breeding- it is usually 75% or 88% jungle jags that are the brightest.
Alternatively, you can get a female Irian Jaya carpet- IJ jags tend to have the brightest yellows of all the jag creations.

[UwabamiReptiles]

Thats a very nice tiger jag if that is the set of genes you want to work with. Its best to try to figure out exactly what you want to produce and then get all the ingredients if you will. In my own experiences, if you have too many ideas then you'll end up getting animals that you'll end up not using. Just another bit of advice that I've learned, if you want to start a breeding project, get your females first. Nothing is more frustrating than having that male you really wanna breed and no female.

Just out of my preference, out of the possible pairings you listed, I would keep everything coastal and breed to a caramel. Then down the line you can get super tiger jags, super caramel jags, and everything in between. But I would keep the coastal blood pure just to save headaches with trying to sell for example: jungle x coastal sibs.

With all this said, if you want to work with tiger jags, the one you are looking at is a nice one to start with IMO. Can't wait to hear what you decide to go for.

[red ink]

My Bredli won't be ready till next year anyway, so it would work out perfectly. From what I've seen, hatchlings go for 500-800 depending on quality, and since this male is relatively close to breeding that is a very fair price.



Not offended one bit. I am going for the jag gene for three reasons:

1) I love the look of some jags. Some are absolutely breathtaking and I would like one simply as a display animal.

2) I love highly variable clutches. Since both the Tiger gene and the Jag gene are so highly variable, especially in the case of integrades, I expect some awesome clutches. Hell I almost picked up a Green Granite burm at the local petshop today to pair with my Hypo Albino just so I could breed the triple hets back and see the huge variability!

3) I can make more money off them. I know how bad that sounds, but I am working with very limited space, so I need to maximize efficiency if I can't maximize production. I'm not in this purely for the money, I love the hobby as a whole, but considering how much time and money I have invested I would like to see some return.

Thanks for the responses guys, I will start the process of asking questions to the breeder.

I would try and get a high quality "pure" coastal or tiger coastal to mate with that tiger Jag. This way you are getting pure tiger coastal as well as tiger Jags from the pairing.

[Necrias]

He is a very clean tiger coastal jag- the jaguar gene originates in the coastal locale of carpet python. A pure coastal jaguar (tiger or otherwise) will have a creamy, buttermilk-like background. They will not have the blinding neon yellow of jungle jags or IJ jags.
My advice- if you want to keep pure locale lines, as in make more coastal jaguars, then this is a very nice snake. However, if you are looking to produce bright yellow babies, then you will need to invest in a very high quality jungle carpet as well, and most likely won't get bright babies out of the first breeding- it is usually 75% or 88% jungle jags that are the brightest.
Alternatively, you can get a female Irian Jaya carpet- IJ jags tend to have the brightest yellows of all the jag creations.


Thats a very nice tiger jag if that is the set of genes you want to work with. Its best to try to figure out exactly what you want to produce and then get all the ingredients if you will. In my own experiences, if you have too many ideas then you'll end up getting animals that you'll end up not using. Just another bit of advice that I've learned, if you want to start a breeding project, get your females first. Nothing is more frustrating than having that male you really wanna breed and no female.

Just out of my preference, out of the possible pairings you listed, I would keep everything coastal and breed to a caramel. Then down the line you can get super tiger jags, super caramel jags, and everything in between. But I would keep the coastal blood pure just to save headaches with trying to sell for example: jungle x coastal sibs.

With all this said, if you want to work with tiger jags, the one you are looking at is a nice one to start with IMO. Can't wait to hear what you decide to go for.

Thank you for all the help, everything everyone said will be given equal consideration, such a great forum! You have especially convinced me to go for the caramel, though I'm not too partial to their looks, I think lots of interesting stuff can be done with them. One last question:

What are the best lines of Jungles (in the US)? I have a carpet breeder here in town that I talked to, he has some beautiful carpets, but is known for being "shady" with regards to advice and sales. I have been told VPI jungles are some of the brightest, they just take longer to color up, but he told me that VPI's "suck". He does have some very bright jungles, but wants $350 for babies, and this seems incredibly high (again, I'm relatively new to carpets). Ideally, I would buy an adult breeder or sub-adult this summer or next, so I don't have to play the guessing and waiting game with regards to color and brightness. I am asking you guys which lines I should look into, regardless of whether I get hatchlings or adults.

[UwabamiReptiles]

My personal preference is a Andrew Hare line jungle. Some of his jungles are out of this world. If just do a search for jungle breeders, you will see how many are out there. Each breeder will breed for a specific characteristic so saying which line is the "best" is gonna just a matter of preference.

Here are a few breeders, I'm sure more people can list others but here's off the top of my head.

Andrew Hare
Will Bird
Will Leary
Mike Curtain
Morelia Trophy Club
there's more but I'm drawing a blank now, hope this helps.

[UwabamiReptiles]

Bryan Hummel and Jordan Russell too.
They have nice jungles.

[MoreliAddict]

if you're sure it's a subpar example of the morph i'd wait. prices are always going down and you're not too far off from a baby granite:D

[Necrias]

Well I pulled the trigger... here he is, 2010 coastal tiger jag from Kerry King! He was obviously quite angry about being in a snake bag for almost 24 hours, as soon as I let him out he went straight for my face! But after a few minutes of gentle handling and a couple nips on the arm he calmed down nicely, not aggressive at all. You can tell from the pic that he would rather not be in a tub, but he has to stay in the quarantine rack for a while.

Also went ahead and purchased 1.1 2012 caramels, along with 0.1 2011 holdback 50% diamond jag. have to wait for my new rack to come in first though!

[Strutter769]

The world could tell you I'm not a python guy, but *that* is one amazing snake! Just awesome!

Best of luck on your breeding plans.

[marvelfreak]

Congrats! Nice looking Jag. I have one question. What makes it a Tiger Jag?

[marvelfreak]

Congrats! Nice looking Jag. I have one question. What makes it a Tiger Jag?
I ask because my Coastal Jaguar looks almost identical to yous.

[shaunyboy]

I was going to wait till this season's babies hatch and get a coastal tiger jag from Anthony Cappionetto, but it would sure be nice to cut a year or two off this breeding project...

However, I don't have "the eye" yet for carpets like I do burms, but this looks like a sub-par male that wouldn't be the greatest fr breeding purposes, what do you guys think? Jump on this or wait? He's priced at $600.

thats a very nice looking,clean,crisp/bold patterned jag,with a nice symetrical head marking,IMO,he's a very nice example,regardless of being priced lower,mate

do you have any pictures of a $900 example,for comparrision ?

cheers shaun

[millertime89]

wait wait wait wait.... caramel carpet or ball?

[UwabamiReptiles]

Thats a nice tiger jag, Kerry King has some great animals.

[shaunyboy]

Congrats! Nice looking Jag. I have one question. What makes it a Tiger Jag?


its a polgenenic dorsal stripe thats past on to the hatchlings chuck

Luke Snell does a lot of work with tigers.he has his own bloodline

i'll pm you a link on tigers mate

cheers shaun

[Necrias]

Congrats! Nice looking Jag. I have one question. What makes it a Tiger Jag?

As Shaun said, it is a polygenic "gene" whose expression is dependent on the presence and expression of other related or competing genes.

wait wait wait wait.... caramel carpet or ball?

Carpets! I am focusing mainly on carpets (and possibly other Aussie pythons), burms (full and half-dwarf), and BRBs, but my girlfriend is really trying to push me to BPs too.

[shaunyboy]

if you're sure it's a subpar example of the morph i'd wait. prices are always going down and you're not too far off from a baby granite:D

^^^^^
although true on morph's in general.....

imo,TOP quality examples in the CARPET world,always HOLD their higher prices,there just isn't enough TOP quality examples going around,for a price drop mate

that said,there are a slight improovement on availability,it's just not enough imo,for a significant price drop

cheers shaun

[Xanafein]

Im just gonna throw it out there but that stunner would look great paired with a GTP....

(braces for hybrid impact)

[exwizard]

Necrias! Hey good to see you here. Hope things went well at the show yesterday. :) That Tiger Jag looks awesome. Just curious, did you get these snakes from the show or directly from Kerry King?

[Necrias]

Im just gonna throw it out there but that stunner would look great paired with a GTP....

(braces for hybrid impact)

I completely agree :eek: as long as the surviving babies are healthy I see no problem with hybrids. Sometime down the line I may pick up a GTP or two and try my hand at carpondros and jagpondros.

Necrias! Hey good to see you here. Hope things went well at the show yesterday. :) That Tiger Jag looks awesome. Just curious, did you get these snakes from the show or directly from Kerry King?

I got the tiger jag directly from Kerry, the caramels (just recently hatched) and D jag (2011 holdback that he didn't have room for) are from Laucke Hooper, who has some amazing caramels. Not sure on my plans for the male caramel or the D jag yet, we will see what opportunities pop up over the next couple years!

And it was very nice meeting you, will definitely be down to pick up some rats in the next couple weeks!

[Ikester1981]

WOW!! and what a trigger you pulled! I definitely love the reduced pattern, and am looking forward to the caramel baby. post pics asap. IMO chris behoff has some nice JCP's cbreptiles.com and andrew hare. reptilesbyah.com. if it were my money I'd get the hare line snake if you check he had a wicked looking yearling for sale just recently. check out mojoreptiles.com too. I am a die hard carpet fan and have my own project waiting in the wings my self. its hard to say about HIGH yellow but refined breeding will surely increase your chances. usually a diamond is in there some where to provide the CLEAN color and TIPPING. inside the black on jcps. have fun!!!

[Ikester1981]

In fact I was just on kingsnake and chris B has a CRAZY jcp male and there is another beautiful jcp from MTC lines.

[Xanafein]

I completely agree :eek: as long as the surviving babies are healthy I see no problem with hybrids. Sometime down the line I may pick up a GTP or two and try my hand at carpondros and jagpondros.



I got the tiger jag directly from Kerry, the caramels (just recently hatched) and D jag (2011 holdback that he didn't have room for) are from Laucke Hooper, who has some amazing caramels. Not sure on my plans for the male caramel or the D jag yet, we will see what opportunities pop up over the next couple years!

And it was very nice meeting you, will definitely be down to pick up some rats in the next couple weeks!


I already Picked up a GTP for that plan, my fave combinations where usually a jayapura or Biak GTP with a jungle carpet, or a jungle jag

Unfortunately with carpondros and jagpondros I've noticed its kinda hit or miss, a few of the ones ive seen had a bit to much going on with their pattern for me to really love em :|


On topic, That is a stunner of a tiger, But methinks i would have only paid around 450 for him, Unless its a female in which case id say 600 is justified.

A lot of Kerry Kings animals are a bit overpriced and i honestly think its because of who he is. (that's not to say his animals aren't amazing)

[shaunyboy]

On topic, That is a stunner of a tiger, But methinks i would have only paid around 450 for him, Unless its a female in which case id say 600 is justified.


imo males are worth more than females mate

you buy a female you get " 1 clutch " per breeding season

you buy a male you get " as many clutches " as you want from him

a single male carrying a particular morph or gene,can breed with mutipule females in a season,where as a female can only give you a single clutch

the reason why males hold more value than females

cheers shaun

[red ink]

imo males are worth more than females mate

you buy a female you get " 1 clutch " per breeding season

you buy a male you get " as many clutches " as you want from him

a single male carrying a particular morph or gene,can breed with mutipule females in a season,where as a female can only give you a single clutch

the reason why males hold more value than females

cheers shaun

Yep any co-dom or recessive mutation males will always be worth more...

Wether it's the albino gene you are after or in this case the Jag gene as you said 1 female = 1 clutch, were as 1 male = multiple sired clutches

[MoreliAddict]

ugh you're all making me want to pimp Spot out one day :rolleyes:...

[Necrias]

I already Picked up a GTP for that plan, my fave combinations where usually a jayapura or Biak GTP with a jungle carpet, or a jungle jag

Unfortunately with carpondros and jagpondros I've noticed its kinda hit or miss, a few of the ones ive seen had a bit to much going on with their pattern for me to really love em :|


On topic, That is a stunner of a tiger, But methinks i would have only paid around 450 for him, Unless its a female in which case id say 600 is justified.

A lot of Kerry Kings animals are a bit overpriced and i honestly think its because of who he is. (that's not to say his animals aren't amazing)

I also think IJs and Bredli Jags would look amazing paired with a quality GTP!

And I actually think I got a helluva deal on this guy, being a 2010 he should be breedable this next season, plus he is an upper tier example with little neuro issues and fantastic feeding response (he just took a FT med rat immediately! Yay!). There are a small number of better examples out there, but this guy beats 90% of them, plus I trust Kerry's husbandry and am not worried about the health of the animal. There were some Tiger Jags at the Des Moines show this weekend for 150-300, but none of them came close to this specimen.

Can't wait to cross with a caramel and produce specimens like this: