It may be time to rethink a little (Savannah Monitors) [Archive]

crocdoc

02-20-12, 08:40 PM

The contradiction is him stated that savannah monitors don't eat rodents in the wild, and if they do, it's a very rare occurance. Then he turns around and says to feed rodents to captive savs.

He doesn't recommend they are the diet, just an occasional addition. His very words preceding that were "a diet of invertebrates, provided generously".

I don't have an issue with that.

Wayne, your comments highlight where being a keeper is different from offering advice as a non-keeper and why I mentioned we should be mindful that Daniel has never pretended to be a keeper. He refers to captives as 'lizards in boxes'.

Most of us here know, from spending time on these forums, that the majority of captive savannah monitors are not supported properly and it's usually best to keep things as simple as possible. Grey areas are generally not a good idea for new keepers, as a 'moderate' amount of something can be misinterpreted in such a way that it becomes the dominant part of the diet. A healthy, well supported savannah monitor would have no issues with the occasional rodent in its diet, but for a poorly supported monitor the extra fat and other goodies may speed up what is already an inevitable early death. In that I agree with you totally.

Daniel's comments weren't based on the assumption that the monitor was going to be kept under substandard conditions. He's not a keeper and wouldn't spend enough time reading forums to know that was the 'norm'. All he knows is that most captives he's seen are grossly obese and lethargic, so he was suggesting an appropriate diet based on what he knows of them from the wild. I wouldn't see that as hypocritical.

I've got two opposing attitudes in my head when it comes to 'rules' in monitor keeping.

1. Part of me knows that absolute rules are appropriate for many beginners, because grey areas can be dangerous. I believe in the K.I.S. strategy (Keep It Simple), so sometimes words like 'never' and 'always' are appropriate.

2. Another part of me hates absolutes, because it can get people stuck. The big lace monitor/nest box argument with FR on the other forum wasn't about what was best for the animals in question - it was about was his absolutist stance on 'whole cage nesting'. He was going to stick by his guns, even though that stance had killed his females and went against their natural biology. I've done (and still do) quite a number of things which go against the accepted dogma for monitor keeping and they've all worked really well for me. Consequently, I think once keepers get a bit of experience behind them they need to be able to think for themselves about what is appropriate and what isn't.

BarelyBreathing

02-20-12, 09:42 PM

crocdoc

02-20-12, 09:48 PM

You'd be surprised at what people think is "once in a while".

Haha, I wouldn't be surprised at all. I saw a phenomenally bad case of MBD on an Australian forum caused by someone feeding it it chicken breast "once in a while". It turned out 'once in a while' was every meal, with the exception of the odd mouse every few weeks.

infernalis

02-20-12, 09:48 PM

Crocdoc- Don't get me wrong, I agree with you. I still think it's a bit hypocritical that he said that, but that's my opinion.

I deal with a lot of rescued savannah monitors, and I see first hand how people misconstrue "feed on occasion" or "for treats only". You'd be surprised at what people think is "once in a while".

So 3 times a day isn't a treat?:p

A big crunchy organic shrimp twice a day would be a treat, and at $10 a pound, they are just that, a treat.

mo9e64

02-20-12, 10:10 PM

beardeds4life

02-20-12, 11:10 PM

So 3 times a day isn't a treat?:p

A big crunchy organic shrimp twice a day would be a treat, and at $10 a pound, they are just that, a treat.

twice a day? that seems more than a treat! when someone says I should feed my animal ....... as a treat I would feed one MAYBE two a week

infernalis

02-20-12, 11:27 PM

I am surprised by these responses as i thought feeding the occassional rodent was never a controversial subject.To me this was pretty consistent position by Daniel Bennett.

CrocDoc's statement about absolutes and rules is an area that interests me because it shows how different aspects of husbandry used in different ways can affect the outcome in a positive or negative way.

Absolutely Moe, Glad you could join in.

See people like most of us here can moderate intake with common sense, meaning we could control ourselves and say feed a mouse every other Friday for instance and stick to it.

But 99% of the other folks out there would start to do it every Friday, then every other day, and uh oh, I'm all out of roaches, but I do have a big bag of mice in the freezer, and suddenly that person is taking the easy way versus the appropriate way.

Oh jeez, I don't really feel like gathering slugs up today, so I'll just head on over to the freezer and grab a couple mice out.

Heck I know it rained out today, but Family Guy is on, so I'd rather not hunt any night crawlers.

Just used up the last of my organic shrimp, don't have $10 to go get a pound, or don't feel like heading out to the store.

Etc.. Etc..

I see exactly where Crocdoc is coming from.

And then toss in my point about the animal not being correctly supported, we all know most of them are not, hell I was arrogant and believed Chomper was being supported correctly, my refusal to feed him rodents was probably the only reason he made it 5 years instead of two.

Skumbo

02-20-12, 11:37 PM

So 3 times a day isn't a treat?:p

A big crunchy organic shrimp twice a day would be a treat, and at $10 a pound, they are just that, a treat.

off-topic, but this was your 10,000th post ;)

BarelyBreathing

02-20-12, 11:41 PM

Absolutely Moe, Glad you could join in.

See people like most of us here can moderate intake with common sense, meaning we could control ourselves and say feed a mouse every other Friday for instance and stick to it.

But 99% of the other folks out there would start to do it every Friday, then every other day, and uh oh, I'm all out of roaches, but I do have a big bag of mice in the freezer, and suddenly that person is taking the easy way versus the appropriate way.

Oh jeez, I don't really feel like gathering slugs up today, so I'll just head on over to the freezer and grab a couple mice out.

Heck I know it rained out today, but Family Guy is on, so I'd rather not hunt any night crawlers.

Just used up the last of my organic shrimp, don't have $10 to go get a pound, or don't feel like heading out to the store.

Etc.. Etc..

I see exactly where Crocdoc is coming from.

And then toss in my point about the animal not being correctly supported, we all know most of them are not, hell I was arrogant and believed Chomper was being supported correctly, my refusal to feed him rodents was probably the only reason he made it 5 years instead of two.

This is exactly it. The entire reason why I am so hard headed about telling new keepers not to offer rodents. There is no benefit to offering them rodents. The best diet is a natural diet.

mo9e64

02-21-12, 07:45 AM

infernalis

02-21-12, 08:00 AM

The thing that doesn't make sense to me is that an animal(Sav) is studied in the wild and labelled in an absolute what it is.Too me it was never about diet or being right it was for people to see that these animals have more potential.But we always let poor results blind the fact that we might have had the wrong set of conditions.Too me CrocDoc's statement which i have read numerous times by Frank Retes as well,RULES can be broken through a grasp of how things work together(through experience).

The part that makes no sense to me Moe, is if current "experimentation" or "bending rules" are all resulting in failures, then why not just go back to square one and copy the master.. Mother Nature herself.

Because so far, mother nature seems to be the only successful sav keeper around.:confused:

Lets just look as some scary numbers, using the Cites database the USA alone imported 149,634 Savannah Monitors over a period of five years.

Nearly every single one of them are now dead. :(

Something HAS to change, if that number was Dogs or Cats the entire industry would have been shut down, it would be all over the TV news, animal lovers would be picketing outside the point of arrival in Miami. Well you get the general picture (I hope).

jarich

02-21-12, 08:24 AM

Im not sure either, but it seems like from what I have read of Daniels comments on other forums that the reason he mentions feeding the occasional rodent is due to the poor condition of readily available invertebrates. Its a good thing to keep in mind that as we are telling people to feed inverts we should also be giving a good amount of time to telling them that crickets and roaches raised on oranges or potato slices are not good enough either (which is the majority of pet store inverts). Its very simple (and cheap!) to feed a calcium rich diet to the inverts and therefore bump up the nutrients they pass on to the monitors. This then takes away the need to supplement with the occasional rodent. Raising earthworms on calcium rich soil actually makes them a better source of calcium than a fuzzy, and gives them a better calcium to phosphorous ratio. And if we need to supplement, an anole or tree frog gives two to three times as much calcium with only a third of the fat.

I think Wayne is absolutely right. No amount of captive husbandry by anyone has produced animals as old as they should be consistently. Between all of us varanid enthusiasts we only know of a few examples of Savs over ten! Therefore tinkering with what we know to be their wild diet seems reckless and somewhat arrogant. That being said, I think it may be best to focus on specific nutrients that are problematic, namely fat in this case, rather than saying that a rodent fed very occasionally is the issue. I dont think that a mouse per say is an unhealthy food, but given the difficulty we have with husbandry it can so quickly become an unhealthy diet. Its because of this that I never would recommend feeding them. Its not that under the right conditions they can eat them, its that under the right conditions there is no need to feed them what is obviously not their normal prey.

mo9e64

02-21-12, 08:43 AM

i think Sav's survive despite mother nature,she can be a bit@# sometimes LOL it's funny how we see things differently

infernalis

02-21-12, 09:05 AM

i think Sav's survive despite mother nature,she can be a bit@# sometimes LOL it's funny how we see things differently

This just confuses me, we have established that the only place they seem to thrive is in the wild, this comment seems to point the other way around? or have I just not had enough coffee yet?

Skumbo

02-21-12, 09:41 AM

i think Sav's survive despite mother nature,she can be a bit@# sometimes LOL it's funny how we see things differently

Savs are what they are because they have adapted to the environment they are suited to, therefore recreating that environment would be the most ideal, would it not?

BarelyBreathing

02-21-12, 12:29 PM

Savs are what they are because they have adapted to the environment they are suited to, therefore recreating that environment would be the most ideal, would it not?

Ding ding ding!

But instead, there are people who insist on keeping them in desert set ups in fish tanks with screen tops, and feeding them rodents.

jarich

02-21-12, 12:33 PM

The other thing Moe is that we try to create the same environmental conditions as in the wild, which I know you ascribe to. So why wouldnt we do the same for the other aspects of husbandry? If mother nature is what you refer to as regards their enclosure, why not in terms of diet?

mo9e64

02-22-12, 08:09 AM

Some of the environmental conditions Sav's have they have adapted to survive-are these conditions we want to recreate.Even scientists would agree that most neonates in the wild will die before reaching maturity for a number of reasons nature being one of them.This is where we differ in opinion,i think all monitors strive for some basic conditions,but have evolved to deal without their particular niches with adaptation.I don't care if i am parroting that,it just makes sense to me.There was a comment made about Sav's not being a Desert Monitor,but would you not keep a Desert Monitor basically the same way as a Sav?

BarelyBreathing

02-22-12, 09:41 AM

Why would you keep a desert dwelling monitor in the same conditions as a monitor who thrives in a semi humid environment?

infernalis

02-22-12, 09:49 AM

would you not keep a Desert Monitor basically the same way as a Sav?

No I would not.

I would keep a desert monitor in a recreation of a desert.

Correct me if I am wrong, I think I may get what you are trying to say... but then again you and I seem to get our wires crossed too often.

My intentions would be to recreate nature, but during an ideal season, not recreate a drought season or a flood season.

Sure most Savs out there in nature can survive a drought, the problem with captivity is that way too many newbies keep their Savs in a perpetual never ending drought, that's why it takes a couple years for the illness to manifest.

I will parrot myself, People keep their savs in a "beef jerky machine"

My ideal goal here is to see my new sav live to get old, really old.

infernalis

02-22-12, 10:02 AM

Wow, our threads here are getting popular with the outside world...

Savannah Monitor Husbandry | The Reptile Report (http://thereptilereport.com/savannah-monitor-husbandry/)

http://www.varanus.us/reports/RR1.gif

mo9e64

02-22-12, 08:27 PM

So instead of getting myself in trouble-I'll ask you guys how you would set up a enclosure for a Desert Monitor?What would be different?

BarelyBreathing

02-22-12, 08:40 PM

Substrate and humidity levels, for one.

jarich

02-22-12, 09:16 PM

That really does seem like an odd question to ask Moe. Of course you would set up a desert species different, just like you would feed a frugivorous or partially herbivorous monitor differently that you would a strict carnivore.

I find the idea that all monitors can be kept the same so strange. No one would suggest that ball pythons be kept the same as green tree pythons or pilbara pythons. Why are some monitor keepers suggesting that all monitors are the same? Methinks it might be a justification for those arguing about Savannahs when they don't even keep them.

crocdoc

02-22-12, 09:40 PM

I find the idea that all monitors can be kept the same so strange.

What, like forcing lace monitors to nest in the ground to prove that they are 'just like every other monitor?'

Oops, I wasn't going to mention that any more, was I... :)

BarelyBreathing

02-22-12, 09:52 PM

What, like forcing lace monitors to nest in the ground to prove that they are 'just like every other monitor?'

Oops, I wasn't going to mention that any more, was I... :)

Lol.

But yes, I just got into it with somebody on another forum who insisted that all monitors were the same. I later asked him if somebody could keep a green tree monitor with a pygmy desert, and his response was "no, of course not!" Ha.

infernalis

02-22-12, 11:26 PM

So instead of getting myself in trouble-I'll ask you guys how you would set up a enclosure for a Desert Monitor?What would be different?

Great question..

Let us discuss Varanus griseus konieczny, A species found in the deserts of Pakistan and India.

They live in a very dry, very hot environment, in sandy deserts, so I highly doubt that you could get one to thrive by providing the same exact environment as a Nile or Sav.

If you really find all thing Varanus fascinating, there is no shortage of things to read Moe.

Rather than wasting my time reading Franks nonsense, I prefer to do some good old fashion research.

No, I do not take everything I read on the internet as gospel, Common sense has to be used, and credibility of the author is also important.

Less than honest people have no credibility.;)

mo9e64

02-23-12, 07:51 AM

BarelyBreathing

02-23-12, 09:18 AM

So what you're saying is that you can put a green tree in with a pygmy desert? I'm sorry, but you're mistaken. The amount of humidity one needs (or doesn't) would kill the other.

infernalis

02-23-12, 02:39 PM

I never said exact,the desert environment is more than you think,it's not the dry hot dry areas that allow Desert Monitors to survive.I think that the issues people face with many species of monitor is not understanding how monitors interact with their environment.If you think Sav's can live in substandard conditions for years think about a creature that has adapted to maybe a harsher environment.I might be wrong but i think people simplify environments.Each environment brings about different elements that the monitor of that environment has to face.What is the most basic element life needs- water-that's what all monitors need.Some have adapted to live periods of time with less and some haven't had to adapt to that challenge.All i'm saying is take out the extremes of their environments and monitors requirements are pretty similar

I'm not stabbing at you personally, but what you just said is simplifying environments at the highest level.

Desert Monitors have been observed to go into a state of hibernation during periods of time when conditions are not exactly what they need.

There is no way anyone is ever going to convince me that an animal who's physiology is specifically adapted to arid sandy environments could even begin to thrive in a moist swampy environment, or that a Monitor who is specifically adapted to live in a moist swampy environment would thrive in a sandy arid setup.

We can go the other extreme, if anyone believes that an Ornate would thrive in a cage specifically set up for a black tree monitor is clearly not thinking things through.

Rain Forests are not deserts are not Savannas. each of these environments have completely different levels of humidity and rainfall.

mo9e64

02-24-12, 09:23 PM

I didn't take that personally Wayne- we just see things differently.Moe

infernalis

02-24-12, 09:25 PM

I didn't take that personally Wayne- we just see things differently.Moe

Honestly Moe, it would get kind of boring if we didn't..:)

As long as we can keep it friendly, a little debating keeps things lively.

I bet if we were in the same room, we wouldn't shut up about monitors for like the longest time.

bodiddleyitis

03-05-12, 03:49 AM

Yeah, as I just said to you, I'm completely aware of Bennett's hypocrasies. He says savs don't eat rodents, then recommends feeding them. He says they don't do well with stress, then recommends force handling them and forcing them into unnecessary baths. I really hope you're not considering this diet. :sad:
" Daniel Bennett .........is clueless when it comes to captive care. He doesn't keep them."

I think this is a bit harsh and I'd be grateful if you'd provide references for the "forced" bathing and handling directions. I don't have a problem providing captive care advice in my monitor lizard books because 1) the captive care advice in almost all mainstream monitor books is appalling and abhorent, despite the fact that they are written by people a lot of "experience" and 2) before I wrote my book in 1995 I had spent 8 years visiting and talking at length to every monitor lizard breeder I could find anywhere in the world. Considering that it was written before the revolution in monitor husbandry I'd still stand by most of it, especially the stuff about looking after feeder animals and I'd like to think it didn't make the lives of any captive monitor lizards worse as a result of their owners reading it.

I probably wouldn't have written another book including captive care if it wasn't for Sprackland's Savannah and Grassland Monitors book published in 2000. If you read that book you'll probably understand how angry I was. Ravi was an experienced savannah monitor breeder, we both got heaps of advice from lots of other breeders and we wrote a book about Savannah monitor lizards based on what we knew about them in the wild and in boxes. I tried to word it in a way that ten year old kids would have no problem understanding, but reading monitor forums I often wonder if I have perhaps performed that task very poorly.

You also need to bear in mind that most savannah monitor owners are under 22 years old and have bought the animals as pets. They are not going to start a cricket farm to feed them and they are not going to breed their lizards. The diet we suggest is one that will minimise the general risk of malnutrition. If we suggested a diet without rodents that would INCREASE the risk of malnutrition.

I don't think hypocritical is a fair thing to say about me. Plus you might notice that there are at least five savannah monitor lizards books that vastly outsell mine on Amazon, maybe you should devote your efforts to dissing them first.

infernalis

03-05-12, 04:07 AM

Like I stated on HC, there is a pattern I am seeing, 10 people read the same study papers and form 10 different hypothesis of what they just read.

crocdoc

03-05-12, 05:27 AM

Plus you might notice that there are at least five savannah monitor lizards books that vastly outsell mine on Amazon, maybe you should devote your efforts to dissing them first.

Which is a shame, because I think the book you and Ravi did on savannah monitors is one of the (if not the) best books on monitor care out there and I am always recommending it to newcomers.

infernalis

03-05-12, 05:31 AM

Which is a shame, because I think the book you and Ravi did on savannah monitors is one of the (if not the) best books on monitor care out there and I am always recommending it to newcomers.

You are not alone there Crocdoc

KORBIN5895

03-05-12, 06:26 AM

Welcome Daniel!!!!! It is a pleasure to have you here. I am pretty stoked to have one of the biggest proponents in the sav fights. I am also very glad that it's not the other gent" or ape as he prefers to be called. I am looking forward to you sharing more of your knowledge.

mo9e64

03-05-12, 08:07 AM

Daniel,when i first read your book,it was nice to see the plain talk.It was a good starting point where those with more advanced husbandry could guide us through getting through more detailed husbandry practices.The sad part is the direction people took your book-and you even stating what you just did i don't see this debate ending soon.

By the way CrocDoc-Lizardheadmikes comments were the first i've seen where discussions from other forums crossed to Varanus.net.The hypocricy is so great here-this kind of commordery is practiced here everyday.Infact a group of you came to Reptile Canada to trash me which you denied,a lie-which i ignored thinking maybe at one point people would end this childish behaviour

We are more than what we are perceived on the internet-you know when things go to far when things like i should punch in you the head are takin' literally-depending where you come from there are different ways of saying this i say 'i feel like smackin you'-don't educated people like scientist know how to take things in context.I'll agree considering the discussion a better choice of words would have been better.Daniel do you believe he meant to literally to strike you-when you met him in person did he seem like a violent person?

bodiddleyitis

03-05-12, 08:52 AM

.Daniel do you believe he meant to literally to strike you-when you met him in person did he seem like a violent person?

No of course not, he's actually one of the nicest men I've ever met. That unpleasant internet persona is just just a cover. I don't understand it but that's the way it is. I'm very sad about it. Let's not contaminate other forums with it.

mo9e64

03-05-12, 10:29 AM

I said awhile ago people have been blaming you for others misinterpretations of your field work-so it is refreshing you are here so people can get it from the horses mouth.

infernalis

03-05-12, 10:43 AM

I said awhile ago people have been blaming you for others misinterpretations of your field work-so it is refreshing you are here so people can get it from the horses mouth.

I know, isn't it great:cool:

And Moe, I sincerely apologize to you right here publicly about any disagreements you and I have had in the past about mice.

A whole new day is upon us, let's proceed with enthusiasm and let the muddy water stay under the bridge where it belongs...

Gregg M

03-05-12, 11:01 AM

Daniel, it is good to see you posting on the forums man. Me and John Adragna were just talking about the time we took you to the Hamburg PA reptile show when your savannah book first came out and all of those thugged out monitor keepers swarmed you so they could get a picture with you. LOL.

Ok, back on topic.
One thing I have seen in this thread that I do not agree with is that rodents should be offered as a treat only. There are not many varanids that specialize in certain prey items and even those that do are still oportunistic and will eat pretty much anything they can overpower. When they do come into contact with rodents, I am certain a wild savannah would never pass up the chance to eat it. I am also pretty sure that in favorable conditions, a savannah would be able to pick off more than one rodent a week. They will also eat other verts like snakes and lizards. I do not think it would be a good idea to offer or suggest people offer a strict insect diet. However I also do not believe their staple should be rodent based.

BarelyBreathing

03-05-12, 12:17 PM

I address them as they come up. In this case, it just so happens to be about you.

You think calling you a hypocrite is harsh? Then please explain to me how this is the second time in a week how I have to point out something you've said that you claim you didin't say (the first being your statement that savs haven't been found in rodent holes). Here.

daniel_bennett: whole animals, no processed meat, in the wild they only really eat invertebrates, but a mixture of insects and mice seem to work fine

daniel_bennett: in fact its probably the most specialised of the African monitor lizards as far as its diet is concerned

If they aree the most specialised of the African monitors as far as diet is concerned, why do you recommend feeding them a diet that is outside of their dietary range?

daniel_bennett: so I think you would need to force it to accept handling

daniel_bennett: once they get used to it they are very good with people

These were found in one conversation.
kingsnake.com - Chat Transcript - Daniel Bennett on Savannah Monitors (http://www.kingsnake.com/articles/Kingsnake/DanielBennett.html)
I find that if people familiar with keeping these animals in captivity read it, they will find plenty of other problems with your suggestions.

Gregg M

03-05-12, 12:54 PM

If they aree the most specialised of the African monitors as far as diet is concerned, why do you recommend feeding them a diet that is outside of their dietary range?

To be fair here, everything we offer these animals in captivity is outside of their range of nature. Everything from food to soil types. You can come close to their natural environment but never replicate it perfectly.

Daniel also states that they do not eat rodents often. He never said they were void in their diet completely.

The insects we offer in captivity are a substitute for their actual diet in the wild. We can only offer what we have available to us. We have brown farm raised cricket and a few species of roach that are NOT native to Africa. If you really want to replicate their natural diet, I suggest you start breeding some African scorpions and snails to use as feeders.

Lets not forget the fact that savs do indeed take rodent and reptilian prey in the wild as well. Ever feed a live snake to a savannah? I have and I can tell you they know exactly what to do when it comes to killing it quickly and eating it. If you have ever seen one kill and eat a live rodent and a live snake, you would see that the killing methods are quite different. This tells me that they are evolved, opportunistic feeders. The fact is, where they come from, insects and molusks are very abundant hence the reason why they make up a lot of their natural diet.

BarelyBreathing

03-05-12, 01:03 PM

He claims that in one study of two hundred specimens, only one specimen was found to take a rodent. Keep in mind, that this was the only time that any rodents were ever found in the diet, and this definitely wasn't the only study done.

Our job as keepers (of any species, not ust savannah monitors) is to get as close as possible to their natural environment. This means providing the correct temperatures, humidity levels, substrate type, and diet. No one part of this is more important than any other part.

And yes, I have experience feeding snakes, as well as frogs and lizards, to monitors.

And while African snails are illegal here, I do breed other snails to suubstitute.

crocdoc

03-05-12, 01:26 PM

By the way CrocDoc-Lizardheadmikes comments were the first i've seen where discussions from other forums crossed to Varanus.net.The hypocricy is so great here-this kind of commordery is practiced here everyday.Infact a group of you came to Reptile Canada to trash me which you denied,a lie-which i ignored thinking maybe at one point people would end this childish behaviour
Moe - I wasn't criticising him for coming from varanus.net to defend FR, I was merely explaining his motives to show that the basis was 'personal', despite him saying explicitly 'this is not personal'.

When you were attacked on Reptile Canada it was because you couldn't understand why everyone didn't want to immediately accept your regurgitation of FR's rants, despite you having very little personal experience with monitors. However, no one told me to go over there to attack you - I just saw your tanty to FR about it. You have the same problem that lizardheadmike has - you're a nice guy, but your admiration for FR stops you from being able to see anything clearly. If you pulled your head out for a minute and took a breath of fresh air, perhaps you'd understand why everyone is so tired of his ____. It's old, really old.

you know when things go to far when things like i should punch in you the head are takin' literally-depending where you come from there are different ways of saying this i say 'i feel like smackin you'-don't educated people like scientist know how to take things in context.I'll agree considering the discussion a better choice of words would have been better.
Moe, no one took him literally but no one has to to recognise that as an incredibly inappropriate thing to say on an internet forum. Especially in the context. He was called out on a deliberate distortion of truth and his only response (rather than an apology) was "I should punch you in the head". REALLY?

Seriously, Moe, pull your head out of there and get some sun on your face, it isn't good for your health. We know you admire him, but we're not going to see him in the same glowing light you do.

jarich

03-05-12, 01:36 PM

To be fair here, everything we offer these animals in captivity is outside of their range of nature. Everything from food to soil types. You can come close to their natural environment but never replicate it perfectly.

Daniel also states that they do not eat rodents often. He never said they were void in their diet completely.

The insects we offer in captivity are a substitute for their actual diet in the wild. We can only offer what we have available to us. We have brown farm raised cricket and a few species of roach that are NOT native to Africa. If you really want to replicate their natural diet, I suggest you start breeding some African scorpions and snails to use as feeders.

Lets not forget the fact that savs do indeed take rodent and reptilian prey in the wild as well. Ever feed a live snake to a savannah? I have and I can tell you they know exactly what to do when it comes to killing it quickly and eating it. If you have ever seen one kill and eat a live rodent and a live snake, you would see that the killing methods are quite different. This tells me that they are evolved, opportunistic feeders. The fact is, where they come from, insects and molusks are very abundant hence the reason why they make up a lot of their natural diet.

Where they come from, rodents are very abundant as well Greg, so Im not sure that logic really works. I was present when someone fed a live mouse to a sav. It was actually the first thing that lead me to question them eating rodents as part of their diet. It didnt seem to me that it was very good at killing it, compared to larger monitors or other reptiles. The fact that they will take it doesnt mean much either. They will eat anything you give them, including dog or cat food. I think there is a guy online with videos of them eating scrambled eggs. Doesnt mean that they should be fed those items or that it is the healthiest item to feed them either. Just like their captive environment, we should always try our best to go further towards their best needs. Just because we cant exactly replicate it doesnt mean we give up on trying. ;)

As to the comment about replicating their natural diet, here is a thought. We see that savannahs are specialized to a type of prey, but unspecialized within that type of prey group. Here is what I mean. They are specialized invert eaters, however the variety of inverts is not specialized. Often individual savs, with no vertebrates in their stomachs have over 30 different types of inverts in them. To me that says feed them inverts, and keep the variety up!

Again, Ill make the comparison Ive made many times. I think rodents are a little like bacon. Bacon isnt bad for you in and of itself, but if youre fat its not helping, and I doubt you will ever hear your doctor say, "hey you should eat more bacon" :D

infernalis

03-05-12, 02:10 PM

He claims that in one study of two hundred specimens, only one specimen was found to take a rodent. Keep in mind, that this was the only time that any rodents were ever found in the diet, and this definitely wasn't the only study done..

All I really want to point out with this, is that study was conducted on Juvenile monitors, babies..

I'm just trying to approach all of this with logic and reasoning.

So if a baby were to stumble upon a nest of pinkie rodents in the wild, chances are the mother rodent would defend said nest with her life, therefore the small Savs would not be "unopposed" in it's attempt to eat the only size rodent it could fit in it's mouth.

BarelyBreathing

03-05-12, 02:26 PM

All I really want to point out with this, is that study was conducted on Juvenile monitors, babies..

I'm just trying to approach all of this with logic and reasoning.

So if a baby were to stumble upon a nest of pinkie rodents in the wild, chancer are the mother rodent would defend said nest with her life, therefore the small Savs would not be "unopposed" in it's attempt to eat the only size rodent it could fit in it's mouth.

Yes, correct, but again, this wasn't the only study done, and other studies have been focused on a larger age range.

bodiddleyitis

03-05-12, 05:33 PM

I think maybe you just don't understand the way I write. It was in response to a question "How should you approach handling? Wait for it to come to you or can that only be achieved through daily handling when it doesn't seem too keen on it" well of course they are not keen on it and of course you would have to force them. If you think that's me encouraging people to force lizards into being handled you obviously have a problem with my language, I don't think many other people would interpret it like that. He didn't ask "should I handle my lizard" he asked "will it come to me for handling or will I have to force it?"

I said that savannah monitor lizards do not SHARE burrows with rodents (as far as I am aware). You said they do, and now you say that the reference to this is in the paper(s) that you have seen but can't remember where they are and don't recall the names of the authors exactly.

If you spent any time at all looking at the diets of wild monitor lizards you would see that they are often not optimal. I know of populations of biawaks that live largely on toads or ranid frogs; they are skinny and small and full of parasites. There are other populations that feed on turtle eggs, and some that live on human corpses and excrement, roadkill, dead fruit bats in caves. Those are "natural diets" but nobody in their right mind would recommend them as food for captives. The only way you could possibly feed imported savannah monitors a "natural" diet would be to ship in wild freshly caught prey items from Ghana every week, sprinkled liberally with local soil. You couldn't breed those prey species in the US because the captive raised ones would have a very different chemical composition to the ones in the wild for obvious reasons. Or at least the reasons should be obvious, but I have a feeling it won't be.

I'm not aware of people finding 30+ species of inverts in a single stomach, unless that is from Cisse's work in Senegal. I'm not aware of other field studies of exanthematicus except his and mine, I'm really hoping there are others out there but I find it strange that nobody can actually produce a citation. If you do a field work and you don't find stuff it doesn't mean it doesn't occur, only that you haven't found it. It's not an absolute science but it requires more field work to prove or disprove general theories about diet, not speculation. For this reason I'm getting rather tired of having this argument. You seem incapable of understanding what I write, which might be my fault. I think at this stage you need to produce these mystery papers and details of how the reptile place you work in has raised exanthematicus to F2/F3 on a diet of invertebrates alone. This is revolutionary stuff and if it's true it will show that savannah monitor lizards can be kept indefinitely on such a diet. It won't mean it's the only diet that's suitable for them, but it will mean that the diet you espouse has been proved to work. If anybody else knows of a similar situation let's hear from you. I'm keeping an open mind and waiting for you to produce something substantial to back up your case. Let's see the papers and details of this sensational breeding achievement, then your position will make much more sense. Until the papers and details of this f2/F3 breeding are available I don't think there is much point in continuing this conversation, but I'm looking forward to its resumption.

KORBIN5895

03-05-12, 05:47 PM

Daniel could you please point me to where someone has claimed to raise three generations on an invertebrate diet I missed it and can't find it. Is calling you Daniel OK?

jarich

03-05-12, 05:57 PM

Oh come on, this is supposed to be my nice forum. I feel like some ole lady now telling everyone to chill all the time. I do really hope this can remain an open and forward debate and not a harsh back and forth.

In reference to the thing I said earlier about the 30 inverts in one specimen; the reference is one Im sure you know, Losos and Greene (1988). I know some of their collection sources are questionable, but he states there were numerous exanthematicus with a very high number of inverts like that.

infernalis

03-05-12, 06:02 PM

I have to take the standpoint that was brought up on another forum, Most of the Savannah monitors sold in pet stores wind up in the possession of very young people who are beguiled into believing they have an easy to care for animal that will do "just fine" in a large aquarium with a screen top and basking lamp.

Maybe I am strange, as I am 47 years old and enamoured by this "beginner's lizard", maybe Chomper stole my heart, who knows.

Back on topic, these young people need to learn to provide suitable environmental parameters, AKA build a decent cage and fill it with a suitable substrate to keep their animals alive and healthy.

So at this point in my never ending learning process, I feel the best advice we can give these younger keepers as far as diet is concerned it to make sure rubbish like dog food, scrambled eggs, cat food, wild caught frogs, etc.. are absolutely not offered.

By stating "I feed frogs" it is all but encouraging people to go forth and scoop up frogs off the ground as free food items. After all how many of these people have access to captive bred frogs? and since it is well known that frogs are a primary host to the flatworm parasite, this is just really bad to even suggest.

At least a bag of frozen mice from a reputable company like rodent pro will be chemical free and parasite free. Therefore much safer than kids grabbing frogs off the ground.

Gregg M

03-05-12, 06:57 PM

Where they come from, rodents are very abundant as well Greg, so Im not sure that logic really works.

At the risk of sounding a little bit like a jerk LOL, When was the last time you were in Afirca, more particularly where savannahs live? How do you know how abundant the rodent population is? Also keep in mind that most rodents are nocturnal from that part of the world and the varanids are diurnal. They paths may not cross often if there is in fact an abundance of rodents that share the same habitat.

I was present when someone fed a live mouse to a sav. It was actually the first thing that lead me to question them eating rodents as part of their diet. It didnt seem to me that it was very good at killing it, compared to larger monitors or other reptiles.

You and I have had very different observations then. I have seen it hundreds of times. When I first started keeping monitors, there were no big frozen rodent companies. I will not say that your observation is wrong, just different.

The fact that they will take it doesnt mean much either.

Actually it does mean a lot. The fact that they will eat rodents without hesitation, even fresh wild caughts, means that they must come into contact with, and feed on rodents.

They will eat anything you give them, including dog or cat food. I think there is a guy online with videos of them eating scrambled eggs. Doesnt mean that they should be fed those items or that it is the healthiest item to feed them either. Just like their captive environment, we should always try our best to go further towards their best needs. Just because we cant exactly replicate it doesnt mean we give up on trying. ;)

Yes, they will eat anything in captivity. Again this just further proves they are opportunistic as well as specialized. The odd scrambled egg every once in a while would be fine. They will eat eggs if they come across them in the wild. Obviously not cookrd though. LOL

As to the comment about replicating their natural diet, here is a thought. We see that savannahs are specialized to a type of prey, but unspecialized within that type of prey group. Here is what I mean. They are specialized invert eaters, however the variety of inverts is not specialized. Often individual savs, with no vertebrates in their stomachs have over 30 different types of inverts in them. To me that says feed them inverts, and keep the variety up!

I agree. However, those different inverts have very different nutritional values. These inverts are also eating plants and animals that are indigenous to the environment. Their gut loads are different from farmed raised brown crickets and such that we offer here. So again, we fall short of providing them with a "natural" diet. I am a huge advocate of a varied diet and it seems you are as well. Crickets, and a couple of different species of roach make up a huge part of our varanids diets. However, we also offer rodents as well. In my opinion, a 40% rodent based 60% is a very good ratio.

Again, Ill make the comparison Ive made many times. I think rodents are a little like bacon. Bacon isnt bad for you in and of itself, but if youre fat its not helping, and I doubt you will ever hear your doctor say, "hey you should eat more bacon" :D

That is a very poor comparison. Rodents are a whole food item, not a fatty strip of flesh from a certain part of a pig.

IIf you spent any time at all looking at the diets of wild monitor lizards you would see that they are often not optimal. I know of populations of biawaks that live largely on toads or ranid frogs; they are skinny and small and full of parasites. There are other populations that feed on turtle eggs, and some that live on human corpses and excrement, roadkill, dead fruit bats in caves. .

Daniel, do not forget about the numerous populations of Varanus salvator that live in and around garbage dumps.

BarelyBreathing

03-05-12, 07:03 PM

You seem incapable of sticking to your story. Seriously. Now are you saying to force handle them or not? People who keep monitors know that force handling is NOT the way of going about it, and instead you should use food to your advantage. Clearly, you aren't familiar with the behaviors of captive animals.

There was a conversation between you and Andrew Bentley on another forum, and now you're saying you aren't familiar with his work? Perhaps he was using a display name, much as you go by BoDiddleyitis, I go by BarelyBreathing, and so on and so forth.

So what you're saying to me is that because we cannot produce the exact diet that the animal eats in the wild, we should give up trying and feed them junk food? I'm sorry, but that makes little sense.

Korbin, it was I who stated that. For more information, just ask.

Savannah monitors will also readily eat items such as pencils, paper clips, and shoe laces, as was noted on several forums. Clearly, they must come across these things in the wild, and must eat them semi regularly, because they sure knew how to eat them in captivity.

bodiddleyitis

03-05-12, 07:10 PM

Daniel could you please point me to where someone has claimed to raise three generations on an invertebrate diet I missed it and can't find it. Is calling you Daniel OK?

You can call me anything, I am getting used to it! Barelybreathing said this, on a different forum, but maybe it was two generations not three, either way it is new and exciting if it can be verified. I gather it's bad form to link from one forum to another but it shouldn't be hard to find.

Gregg M

03-05-12, 07:11 PM

So what you're saying to me is that because we cannot produce the exact diet that the animal eats in the wild, we should give up trying and feed them junk food? I'm sorry, but that makes little sense.

I do not recall anyone saying that. Rodents are not junk food and are a natural part of most varanid diets.

There are some aussie species that specialize in lizards like V. tristis. How many keepers do you think offer lizards as prey at all, much less as a staple.

This is captivity and there is only so much that can be replicated.

Savannah monitors will also readily eat items such as pencils, paper clips, and shoe laces, as was noted on several forums. Clearly, they must come across these things in the wild, and must eat them semi regularly, because they sure knew how to eat them in captivity.

Sorry, this is a bit silly and has nothing to do with the subject. You have to agree.

I found this sitting outside of a savannah monitor burrow.

http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/p72/p721011/p72101100129/8292332-a-red-leather-beautiful-worn-fashion-boot-seen-from-the-side-vintage-look-without-laces-in-the-cente.jpg

infernalis

03-05-12, 07:12 PM

You can call me anything, I am getting used to it! Barelybreathing said this, on a different forum, but maybe it was two generations not three, either way it is new and exciting if it can be verified. I gather it's bad form to link from one forum to another but it shouldn't be hard to find.

You may link anything you like, if it supplements the conversation.

bodiddleyitis

03-05-12, 07:17 PM

BarelyBreathing

03-05-12, 07:21 PM

I actually said that they are breeding them into a fourth generation. They are working on a study right now, but it won't be published until 2013, I believe.

And actually, my statement was a direct response to this:
Actually it does mean a lot. The fact that they will eat rodents without hesitation, even fresh wild caughts, means that they must come into contact with, and feed on rodents.

So again, the fact that they will eat pencils, paper clips, and shoe laces without hesitation must mean that they come into contact with, and feed on pencils, paper clips, and shoe laces in the wild, right?

And, it's been proven that savannah monitors have a very low tolerance for fatty foods. Rodents are notoriously high in fat, thus, junk food.

infernalis

03-05-12, 07:40 PM

I know it's not right to compare snakes to monitors, however for the sake of conversation I will use this example, it is not intended to mean they are interchangeable, merely an example.

It is a well known fact that I breed Thamnophis (Garter snakes) I study them in the wild, I own, maintain and build habitat and am very well educated on the species.

In the wild most garter snakes are opportunistic specialists, they eat earthworms, tadpoles, toads and small minnows.

The California species Thamnophis Infernalis & highly threatened Thamnophis Sirtalis tetrataenia live almost solely on California red legged frogs as their diet.

I have bred for multiple generations several different species of Thamnophis by feeding them mice, Many of the members of this forum have seen countless photographs of me feeding ground up pinkie mouse flesh to my snakes with no ill effects on the animals health, including Thamnophis Infernalis.

I have very knowledgeable colleagues in Europe who have had wonderful success breeding tetrataenia on a diet of mice as well. (They are illegal to posses in captivity in the USA) for multiple generations.

Now if one were to adhere strictly to this naturalistic approach, we would be feeding these captive animals very nasty food items laden with parasites.

Tadpoles, frogs, toads and minnows are high risk carriers of internal parasitic worms, with this in mind any sensible keeper will avoid them at all costs.

Some people who try to adhere to the "natural" approach will feed Tilapia and salmon, now Tilapia is not even native to the north American continent, and please someone show me a small colubrid that will catch and consume a salmon??

The point I am trying to make in this long winded post is that substituting food items has been common practice in the reptile trade for many years.

It has been my most heartfelt opinion for a while now that it is incorrect environmental parameters that is killing Monitors, a lot more so than prey choices.

BarelyBreathing

03-05-12, 07:43 PM

It has been my most heartfelt opinion for a while now that it is incorrect environmental parameters that is killing Monitors, a lot more so than prey choices.

That's been my opinion for a long time, Wayne, and I don't think anybody would argue with that.

KORBIN5895

03-05-12, 07:50 PM

You can call me anything, I am getting used to it! Barelybreathing said this, on a different forum, but maybe it was two generations not three, either way it is new and exciting if it can be verified. I gather it's bad form to link from one forum to another but it shouldn't be hard to find.

Lol! Anything huh? ;) They call me Kevin or Dumber around here.

The link should be fine. I don't visit too many other forums unless someone reports some extreme stupidity then I go check it out. You could also pm me.:

bodiddleyitis

03-05-12, 07:52 PM

Ok, well I suppose it's best to wait for this paper and the other ones about wild savannah monitor lizards that I've never seen. 4th generation is very impressive, completely unheard of and WHEN it's published maybe it will revolutionise savannah monitor keeping.

Re. Losos and Greene; it's an excellent paper, but they didn't distinguish between albigularis and exanthematicus (nobody did in those days) and as I can recall it wasn't possible to work out which species they were talking about. Luckily the savannah monitors in Ghana didn't have such a wide diet, otherwise I would have had a nightmare working out which species were involved!

infernalis

03-05-12, 07:55 PM

That's been my opinion for a long time, Wayne, and I don't think anybody would argue with that.

So why are we all up in arms over the prey choices.

I have also started thinking very much that had I not shoveled so many shrimp laden with phosphates in front of Chomper in a quest to avoid mice, maybe he would still be here today??

I will probably be beating myself up over him forever, I only wish I had paid closer attention to the label on the bags before.

My snakes stopped dying for "unexplained" reasons too once I desisted using frozen fish and switched to ground mice mixed with organic trout flesh.

infernalis

03-05-12, 08:10 PM

So again, the fact that they will eat pencils, paper clips, and shoe laces without hesitation must mean that they come into contact with, and feed on pencils, paper clips, and shoe laces in the wild, right?.

I have an answer for that, Chomper used to pick up plastic and paper off the ground all the time too.

Feeding response is triggered by scent, now let's be realistic, not everyone washes their hands like an obsessive compulsive, so the most likely scenario is scent transfer.

Each time Chomper tried to eat paper or plastic items from the ground, I could see traces of slug goo on the items he was trying to eat.

It is common knowledge that slugs and snails are drawn to paper and plastic left on the ground.

so it stands to reason that if any keeper were to feed their snakes, monitors or other pets mice, and handle said mice with their hands, then subsequently tie their shoes, write down notes in their feeding ledger, or sit at their desk while still having scent on their fingers, it will then transfer to the item they just touched.

Surely Savannah Monitors do not crave conifer trees??

http://www.chompersite.com/outside/images/tree.jpg

bodiddleyitis

03-05-12, 08:11 PM

So why are we all up in arms over the prey choices.

Because there's a fundamental flaw in the reasoning that captive animals should be fed a "natural diet". Lots and lots and lots of monitor species have been bred to countless generations on a diet of invertebrates and rodents. The same hasn't been demonstrated for an invertebrate only diet. Recommending an invertebrate only diet to most owners of savannah monitor lizards will cause far more problems than it solves (mealworms, frogs, snails etc). When there is a competent monitor breeder demonstrating that an invert only diet can sustain captive monitor lizards through a reproductive life without any mammals in the diet then it becomes good advice, until then it's just an opinion that is wide open to misinterpretation.

Trent

03-05-12, 08:15 PM

Because there's a fundamental flaw in the reasoning that captive animals should be fed a "natural diet". Lots and lots and lots of monitor species have been bred to countless generations on a diet of invertebrates and rodents. The same hasn't been demonstrated for an invertebrate only diet. Recommending an invertebrate only diet to most owners of savannah monitor lizards will cause far more problems than it solves (mealworms, frogs, snails etc). When there is a competent monitor breeder demonstrating that an invert only diet can sustain captive monitor lizards through a reproductive life without any mammals in the diet then it becomes good advice, until then it's just an opinion that is wide open to misinterpretation.

The most common sense post in this entire thread!

BarelyBreathing

03-05-12, 08:19 PM

Yes, that makes sense to me, Wayne, lol.

But I must argue this. I do wash my hands like an obsessive compulsive, because, well, I have obsessive compulsive disorder. I was my hands before and after I touch any sort of food (animal or human, it doesn't matter), before and after I touch my animals, even before and after I touch my computer. I also wash them several times in between, because I don't like to have risidual "feelings" on them (for example, if I touch a carpet, I can "feel" the carpet for a long period of time after that, and, even though it's in my head, I must wash my hands to rid myself of that feeling). And, I most definitely wash my hands any time before I touch my camera. Why do my monitors try to eat that? Why do they go for the zippers off of clothes that just came out of the wash?

By the way, I love that picture. It makes me giggle.

And to Daniel-
I really can't go into to much detail, but, while it will be noted what the diet of these animals is, it won't be about diet.

BarelyBreathing

03-05-12, 08:22 PM

When there is a competent monitor breeder demonstrating that an invert only diet can sustain captive monitor lizards through a reproductive life without any mammals in the diet then it becomes good advice, until then it's just an opinion that is wide open to misinterpretation.

Explain this:

I posted this on the thread in another forum that you and I have been a part of. This is a captive bred similis baby produced on an invert diet.

http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m611/SnakeShed/Reptils/_DSC0028.jpg

Or... perhaps I'm mistaken and it's a unicorn.

bodiddleyitis

03-05-12, 08:23 PM

The most common sense post in this entire thread!
Thanks, and my last word on the subject until some evidence is presented to the contrary. I have a visitor who says that arguing on the internet is like trying to make a cat laugh..........

Trent

03-05-12, 08:25 PM

Thanks, and my last word on the subject until some evidence is presented to the contrary. I have a visitor who says that arguing on the internet is like trying to make a cat laugh..........

So very true!

bodiddleyitis

03-05-12, 08:26 PM

It's picture of one lizard. Get the breeder online and let's get some primary evidence. Until then, good night

BarelyBreathing

03-05-12, 08:26 PM

It's picture of one lizard. Get the breeder online and let's get some primary evidence. Until then, good night

You're talking to the breeder.

Gregg M

03-05-12, 08:36 PM

Explain this:

I posted this on the thread in another forum that you and I have been a part of. This is a captive bred similis baby produced on an invert diet.

http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m611/SnakeShed/Reptils/_DSC0028.jpg

Or... perhaps I'm mistaken and it's a unicorn.

All I see is a photo of a head of a V. similis (which is actually Varanus scalaris). No hatching photos or feeding data on the parents?

Who bred this species in captivity? I do not know of anyone who has done it with any regularity.

Besides all that, you are showing a small odatria species with different dietary needs.

infernalis

03-05-12, 08:38 PM

I have a visitor who says that arguing on the internet is like trying to make a cat laugh..........

I heard a different one, but it's not as polite. :cool:

crocdoc

03-05-12, 08:42 PM

I actually said that they are breeding them into a fourth generation.

Who is 'they'?

KORBIN5895

03-05-12, 08:43 PM

The most common sense post in this entire thread!

Hey! Some of mine are really good too!

You're talking to the breeder.

Oh well that puts a new spin on things.

KORBIN5895

03-05-12, 08:44 PM

I heard a different one, but it's not as polite. :cool:

PM it to me. I am really bored.

Gregg M

03-05-12, 08:46 PM

Who is 'they'?

I was wondering myself. Savs are very rarely ever bred in captivity. So for there to be 4th generation CBB savs that would be a pretty big deal in the varanid world.

crocdoc

03-05-12, 08:47 PM

I have a visitor who says that arguing on the internet is like trying to make a cat laugh..........

I can't make a cat laugh, but I can make one sound like a dog.

All you need is kerosene and a match. Douse the cat in the kerosene and light the match.

WOOF!

(I should add that I wouldn't really do this to a cat, just in case someone takes this literally)

KORBIN5895

03-05-12, 08:57 PM

I can't make a cat laugh, but I can make one sound like a dog.

All you need is kerosene and a match. Douse the cat in the kerosene and light the match.

WOOF!

(I should add that I wouldn't really do this to a cat, just in case someone takes this literally)

Hahaha! Priceless.

That last part is a real shame though.

infernalis

03-05-12, 09:12 PM

Although most of us have seen this, I will post it again.

Here we can witness the behaviour of Chomper when he sees a snake.

I would not have allowed him to eat her, just in case that question arises.

9Ab-Rohb7L4

In this video, he tracks down a slug (Terrestrial Mollusk)

56a93F4DiUg

I will forever miss these times out back.

BarelyBreathing

03-05-12, 09:28 PM

All I see is a photo of a head of a V. similis (which is actually Varanus scalaris). No hatching photos or feeding data on the parents?

I will be posting more pictures shortly. Ask away. :D

Who is 'they'?

I volunteer at a reptile conservation facility. This is currently one of their projects. I can't go in to further detail without written permission, first.

Gregg M

03-05-12, 09:37 PM

I will be posting more pictures shortly. Ask away. :D
I did ask away. LOL.
Looking foward to the photos.

I volunteer at a reptile conservation facility. This is currently one of their projects. I can't go in to further detail without written permission, first.

You are talking about an at least 8 year breeding project on a species very infrequently bred in captivity. What are they doing with all the offspring? Savs can lay upwards of 30 eggs. I would imagine that they are not keeping them all as 8 years worth of producing savs would take up a HUGE amount of space. Yet there are virually no CBB savs anywhere to be found?

BarelyBreathing

03-05-12, 09:46 PM

I did ask away. LOL.
Looking foward to the photos.

You are talking about an at least 8 year breeding project on a species very infrequently bred in captivity. What are they doing with all the offspring? Savs can lay upwards of 30 eggs. I would imagine that they are not keeping them all as 8 years worth of producing savs would take up a HUGE amount of space. Yet there are virually no CBB savs anywhere to be found?

You've got to be more specific. What information would you like to know about the parents? I have a trio of these guys, one male, two females. I believe this little guy was produced by the smaller of the females, although I originally thought it was the larger. I came to this conclusion because one of my females and my male look almost the same, but the smaller female is a bit darker than them, and this baby is the darkest I've ever seen. The parents are housed together in a 6x6x8 enclosure that offers so much cover I rarely get to see them. There are two basking spots, one at 137f and the other is at 125f. They have a UV-B bulb, 10.0, in the enclosure placed at the higher of the basking spots. There is a humidity gradient of 65% to over 90%, depending on what part of the enclosure you're measuring. Substrate is Eco Earth and children's washed play sand, just under a foot deep, with leaf litter on top. I have two nesting boxes, both are hidden in resin and foam "trees". Diet is mostly roaches, crickets, earth worms, locusts, and slugs.

Again, I can't speak much about this project until it's findings are published. However, most of the eggs were not incubated, or incubated partially.

Gregg M

03-05-12, 10:46 PM

You've got to be more specific. What information would you like to know about the parents? I have a trio of these guys, one male, two females. I believe this little guy was produced by the smaller of the females, although I originally thought it was the larger. I came to this conclusion because one of my females and my male look almost the same, but the smaller female is a bit darker than them, and this baby is the darkest I've ever seen. The parents are housed together in a 6x6x8 enclosure that offers so much cover I rarely get to see them. There are two basking spots, one at 137f and the other is at 125f. They have a UV-B bulb, 10.0, in the enclosure placed at the higher of the basking spots. There is a humidity gradient of 65% to over 90%, depending on what part of the enclosure you're measuring. Substrate is Eco Earth and children's washed play sand, just under a foot deep, with leaf litter on top. I have two nesting boxes, both are hidden in resin and foam "trees". Diet is mostly roaches, crickets, earth worms, locusts, and slugs.

How many eggs and what was the hatch rate? Any photos of them hatching?
Photos of the set up would be awesome too.

Again, I can't speak much about this project until it's findings are published. However, most of the eggs were not incubated, or incubated partially.

Well that is a bit counter productive for a reptile conservation project, no?

BarelyBreathing

03-05-12, 10:54 PM

How many eggs and what was the hatch rate? Any photos of them hatching?
Photos of the set up would be awesome too.

Well that is a bit counter productive for a reptile conservation project, no?

Unfortunately and admittedly, this was the only hatchling. The fault was mine, as I didn't incubate properly in the end.

I have a whole post about it on another forum. I will try to find it and link you to it. I have another post (including pictures of the parents and their enclosures) on a third forum. This one might be more difficult to find, because that site is completely not working now. I will post pictures if I can't find that thread.

I just got a new computer after my old one broke, and honestly, I'm still going through files. I'm only about 1/8th of the way through, and don't expect to be done within the next week or so, so please be patient. When the company put my data back on the computer, they pretty much gave me one big folder, and nothing is organized. I have literally hundreds of thousands of pictures, and to clarify the chaos, imagine this:
DSC000001
DSC000001(1)
DSC000001(2)
And so on and so forth.

And yes, I do think it's a bit counterproductive when you are aiming towards producing babies, but this isn't the goal here. I think it will all be clear soonish.

Gregg M

03-06-12, 12:30 AM

Unfortunately and admittedly, this was the only hatchling. The fault was mine, as I didn't incubate properly in the end.

Are you certain that it had nothing to do with the fact that you only offered insects? I would say with those results you were not at all successful in proving that you can successfully breed on an insect only diet. Not to sound harsh, but one single hatchling from a trio in a species that lays multiple clutches a year is a failure and proves the opposite of your theory.

I also do not understand how you did not incubate properly "in the end". Can you explain?

I have a whole post about it on another forum. I will try to find it and link you to it. I have another post (including pictures of the parents and their enclosures) on a third forum. This one might be more difficult to find, because that site is completely not working now. I will post pictures if I can't find that thread.

I just got a new computer after my old one broke, and honestly, I'm still going through files. I'm only about 1/8th of the way through, and don't expect to be done within the next week or so, so please be patient. When the company put my data back on the computer, they pretty much gave me one big folder, and nothing is organized. I have literally hundreds of thousands of pictures, and to clarify the chaos, imagine this:
DSC000001
DSC000001(1)
DSC000001(2)
And so on and so forth.

And yes, I do think it's a bit counterproductive when you are aiming towards producing babies, but this isn't the goal here. I think it will all be clear soonish.

I will be looking foward to the photos when you get things sorted.

crocdoc

03-06-12, 02:32 AM

The hypocricy is so great here-this kind of commordery is practiced here everyday.Infact a group of you came to Reptile Canada to trash me which you denied,a lie...

I hadn't quite remembered exactly which thread you were referring to (there was a similar one on this forum, I believe), but as you were calling me a liar I went over to Reptiles Canada to refresh my memory. There's no need for me to repeat what I'd already told you when you had accused me of lying then, for my answer hasn't changed. Your problem is that you've been hanging around a compulsive liar for so long you assume that everyone else lies, too.

On another note, in that thread I stumbled across a statement I made which is particularly apt given the current conversation going on over on BS.com.
What's angered me most about the parroting of other people's opinions is that along with it comes one particular person's dislike of field biologists. I've seen Daniel Bennett's name thrown about in a disparaging way because he's stated that the wild population of savannah monitors he studied did not feed on rodents. Just because many monitors can be raised on rodents in captivity does not mean that's what they feed on in the wild. Captivity does not change the wild and putting down someone's field study in an attempt to prove one's own opinion is of no advantage to anyone.
(link: Mythical Monitor Madness - Reptiles Canada Forums (http://www.reptilescanada.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55599))

Kind of like claiming that studies on wild monitors which have shown they nest in termite mounds are invalid because one doesn't want to use a heated nestbox in their enclosures, eh. :)

jarich

03-06-12, 07:49 AM

At the risk of sounding a little bit like a jerk LOL, When was the last time you were in Afirca, more particularly where savannahs live? How do you know how abundant the rodent population is? Also keep in mind that most rodents are nocturnal from that part of the world and the varanids are diurnal. They paths may not cross often if there is in fact an abundance of rodents that share the same habitat.

You and I have had very different observations then. I have seen it hundreds of times. When I first started keeping monitors, there were no big frozen rodent companies. I will not say that your observation is wrong, just different.

Actually it does mean a lot. The fact that they will eat rodents without hesitation, even fresh wild caughts, means that they must come into contact with, and feed on rodents.

Yes, they will eat anything in captivity. Again this just further proves they are opportunistic as well as specialized. The odd scrambled egg every once in a while would be fine. They will eat eggs if they come across them in the wild. Obviously not cookrd though. LOL

I agree. However, those different inverts have very different nutritional values. These inverts are also eating plants and animals that are indigenous to the environment. Their gut loads are different from farmed raised brown crickets and such that we offer here. So again, we fall short of providing them with a "natural" diet. I am a huge advocate of a varied diet and it seems you are as well. Crickets, and a couple of different species of roach make up a huge part of our varanids diets. However, we also offer rodents as well. In my opinion, a 40% rodent based 60% is a very good ratio.

That is a very poor comparison. Rodents are a whole food item, not a fatty strip of flesh from a certain part of a pig.

Daniel, do not forget about the numerous populations of Varanus salvator that live in and around garbage dumps.

I havent been to Africa for at least five years, but I really dont think we need to argue about whether or not rodents are prevalent in the grasslands and farmlands of western Africa, do we?

Either way, it seems that rather than saying inverts are a poor substitution, we can see that poorly raised inverts are a poor substitution. We know that in the past, before proper nutritional information was known, indeed it would have been difficult to raise a monitor to breeding multiple generations on such poor quality inverts. That you have farm raised crickets and roaches with questionable nutritional content seems like the problem, not feeding inverts themselves.

This is something that is easily remedied with proper nutrition for the feeder insect. You see, we learned as a community that inverts raised properly pass on that nutrition to the predator, so I think it may be time to reconsider your ideas about feeding an all invert diet. Maybe 20 years ago it was true that an all invert diet wasnt nutritious enough. It doesnt seem like it is true now. After much research into these prey items there does not seem to be much nutritional difference regarding vitamins and minerals between the two food items, if raised properly. The main difference seems to be with the fat.

Which brings me to the bacon comparison; I think they are a good comparison because of fat content and quality. Youre right in saying bacon is a fatty piece of meat, and so are farm raised rodents. They are roughly 30% fat (inverts are anywhere from 1% fat to 15% fat by comparison). And just like bacon, they arent the good kind of fat. One of the major differences I have found aside from sheer fat content, is the quality of that fat. Bacon is a source high in saturated fats, and so too are rodents. Inverts and fish are a source of unsaturated and polyunsaturated fats (ie the good kind). So you are taking an animal that is adapted to extremely low levels of saturated fats and giving it a diet of 30% saturated fats. Present scientific data shows that across all animal groups that is not a good thing. (check out your cat's and dog's food, even those are trending towards omega 3 and 6 fats!) Then we go to data that shows that the fats in frozen meat oxidize and degrade quickly and easily (as well as Vitamin E) and you have an even worse nutritional source of fats.

So now it seems like the rodents may be the closer comparison to your 'garbage dump' water monitors regarding a dietary source. What if all this time we have been feeding them meat that just makes them fat, much like a bunch of American kids? American kids breed to generations of grandchildren, and live to be 80 or more sometimes, but I dont think anyone would argue that American children are as healthy as they could be.

You see, no one is saying monitors cant be raised on rodents. What we are saying is that as we learn more, it seems like rodents just arent the best source for them. The idea is that we learn from new information, and I think that applying new information here means we attempt to now feed an all invert diet and see if it works. Thats all Im saying. You say there are no monitors that have been raised on an all invert diet? Great, show me anyone who actually tried recently. Show me someone who tried raising them on healthy nutritious inverts and then failed. I think that you will have a very hard time coming up with those individuals, because we all dislike changing an easy routine. What I see is people who have made the assumption that inverts cant possibly be as nutritious so they arent going to test the theory.

As for the argument that inverts are too hard to raise for a young kid who owns a monitor, thats silly. I presently raise roaches, earthworms, hornworms and just recently crayfish for my monitor. I buy crickets and gutload them for a day before feeding. I have raised rats and mice in the past and have to say that there isnt anything as easy as raising inverts. Good grief, what breeds more than roaches?! Im not sure why people keep saying no young person would be able to do this. The proper nutrition for inverts is cheap and simple as well, so that rules out that argument.

Science is about testing theories and finding out. If you rule out a theory before it even has a chance to be tested then the question is about the closed nature of your mind, not the theory. I have one monitor, so Im testing it. Greg you have many from the sounds of it. Have you ever tried raising a monitor on an all invert diet (and by all invert, I mean a variety of nutritionally raised inverts)? If not, then why not? I think the only real way this debate could ever be put to rest is for someone to raise a group of monitors in identical habitats, with different food sources. If I didnt live in NYC I would do it myself, but real estate is a little pricey here for that (and I dont think my fiancee would take kindly to every square inch of our apartment going towards monitor enclosures...much to my chagrin). What do you think?

mo9e64

03-06-12, 07:52 AM

I actually agree with Daniel's field research-and have stated for quite some time that people cannot distinguish his research and how it relates to captive diet.I said basically Frank takes out peoples misinterpretations of Daniel's research on Daniel,apparently I do find time to take my head out of Frank's hindend to be objective.My thread on reptile canada relates to this current discussion as it talks about the diet biase i claimed about savannahmonitor.org which based on Daniels comments has some base to-

CrocDoc You used observations from the wild to simulate conditions in captivity-are you saying all that a Lace Monitor is what can be written in a book-probably not.There are aspects of nature we can improve on or try to simulate in captivity-my stance is to say there is more to monittors than what we observe, be it diet or whatever if i am wrong that is the direction you need to go-not distorting my view point.

crocdoc

03-06-12, 09:09 AM

CrocDoc You used observations from the wild to simulate conditions in captivity-are you saying all that a Lace Monitor is what can be written in a book-probably not.
No. I am saying that one can't make categorical claims about what happens in the wild based on captives faced with limited choices. There are a small number of things which can be guessed at, based on the behaviour of captives, others that cannot. It's a fun guessing game, but it's purely theoretical and academic until proven to be true through observations in the wild. That sort of conjecture doesn't invoke my ire as long as it is recognised as conjecture and not pushed as fact.

What I find annoying is when people state absolutes about wild monitors based on their observations with captives and then denigrate all field biologists for not agreeing with them. Just because something works in captivity doesn't mean that it happens in the wild. Be happy that it works with your captives, there's no need to attack field biologists for not finding the same thing in their wild subjects or to attempt a rewrite of the world's knowledge base of that species' habits in the wild.

I said basically Frank takes out peoples misinterpretations of Daniel's research on Daniel

I can't recall you saying that, but I'm glad we agree that's not appropriate behaviour.

BarelyBreathing

03-06-12, 11:15 AM

Are you certain that it had nothing to do with the fact that you only offered insects? I would say with those results you were not at all successful in proving that you can successfully breed on an insect only diet. Not to sound harsh, but one single hatchling from a trio in a species that lays multiple clutches a year is a failure and proves the opposite of your theory.

I also do not understand how you did not incubate properly "in the end". Can you explain?

I will be looking foward to the photos when you get things sorted.

I've been having a lot of incubation problems. I've had multiple clutches before this one (and I have a doreanus clutch cooking), but I have never seemed to get incubation right. One time it was unplugged, and I didn't notice until the eggs went bad. I've had fluccuating humidity, too.

These eggs all made it to crunch time. They candled well, showed developing animals, all looked great. Then the first one hatched, and in my excitement, I pretty much destroyed the humidity levels in there by continuousuly opening it to check. This was pretty much detrimental on the eggs, because I already have an incubator that isn't stable.

When I finally gave up and cut open the eggs (three and a half weeks after the first hatched and they were showing signs of going bad), the babies were pretty much fully developed.

I've tried different brands of store bought, and I've tried making some. I suck at making them, let's just say that.

Also, just to make things clear, my animals are regularly checked by a vet.

infernalis

03-06-12, 11:25 AM

Gentlemen, I had hoped this was not going to spill into this thread, honestly I did, but now a few things have already been said that do require clarification.

I just reread that thread on reptiles Canada, and here are a few excerpts that shed light on what is happening right now....

I wrote an opinion from Frank Retes,with 30 years of experience.I thought your monitor looked good, but he said he's too heavy for a monitor that length. If he says something with his experience can you not say he might know what he's speaking of.Nothing personal,this is just a counter argument that it's possible to get obese from an all invert diet.

Everyone would be a lot happier to hear your opinion coming from you. Stand up for what YOU think, and don't belittle yourself because someone else feels differently. It makes you appear to be a mindless robot when you allow what someone else thinks to push your own personal thoughts off to one side like that.

It's nice to have someone of CrocDocs experience on this site-my opinion is officially negated.I wanted to get rid of my opinion anywayshttp://www.varanus.us/smile/sick.gif

Here it is again, only this time you switched sides within two posts.. Please do not allow other people to take over your point of view.

Varanus.net it's outside your comfort zone.

Why would anyone, anyone at all feel comfortable where Frank not only edits his posts, but with his moderator status has been known to repeatedly edit and delete other peoples posts at will.?? That's just lunacy, FR can keep his forum, I'm not interested.....

I said basically Frank takes out peoples misinterpretations of Daniel's research on Daniel.

This may be true, but as the thread on KS clearly displays, Not even Frank himself "inerpets" the research correctly himself, He confused a Juvenile with an adult, and he somehow confused Bature Ali with Mr. Bennett.

http://www.varanus.us/frank/fibber.gif

Gregg M

03-06-12, 01:20 PM

I've been having a lot of incubation problems. I've had multiple clutches before this one (and I have a doreanus clutch cooking), but I have never seemed to get incubation right. One time it was unplugged, and I didn't notice until the eggs went bad. I've had fluccuating humidity, too.

These eggs all made it to crunch time. They candled well, showed developing animals, all looked great. Then the first one hatched, and in my excitement, I pretty much destroyed the humidity levels in there by continuousuly opening it to check. This was pretty much detrimental on the eggs, because I already have an incubator that isn't stable.

When I finally gave up and cut open the eggs (three and a half weeks after the first hatched and they were showing signs of going bad), the babies were pretty much fully developed.

I've tried different brands of store bought, and I've tried making some. I suck at making them, let's just say that.

Also, just to make things clear, my animals are regularly checked by a vet.

I know a lot about incubation. My business partner (best friend for years) John Adragna and myself designed and produce a product for incubating eggs called the SIM container. We have tested many methods, ratios, and so on.

From roughly 20 years (give or take) of incubating reptile eggs of many species, I know that most times when embryos go full term and die, it has very little to do with the actual incubation and more to do with the female who laid them. I suspect and would bet my last dollar that the all invert diet may have had much more to do with you dead in eggs than you incubation technique.

I do not think opening the tubs and incubator to check on the eggs was detrimantal to their development. No one you know is more impatient when it come to incubating eggs than me. LOL. I used to open containers to check on eggs every couple of days. These days I am much better at keeping my hands out of the incubator but that was not always the case. I earely ever lost good, strong, viable eggs.

Believe me, I am not having a dig at you or saying anything bad about your husbandry. I am just trying to get some facts out on the table so we can somewhat figure out what is going on. I have read a lot of your post and it is clear you have a good grasp on these lizards so please do not take what I say as an insult even if it can sound harsh at times.

I will soon be making a thread on our product and how we incubate our own eggs in the incubation section of this site. Since we have tuned our methods, we have pretty much had a 100% hatch rate with all species we work with.

And to be honest, I have very little faith in vets. What kind of check ups do your animals get? Anything short of blood work will not be able to tell you what the calcium levels are in the blood or what vitamins and minerals you adult breeders may or may not be lacking in.

BarelyBreathing

03-06-12, 01:40 PM

I've used a makeshift SIM, Gregg, actually directed by you on another forum. I couldn't get the temps stable. I'm at the point where I really need to rethink the location of my incubator, because right now they are in a very drafty part of the house. The problem is, unless I move some enclosures around in my basement, I don't have room anywhere else.

I'm sure it was the humidity this time, because there was almost none at the end of incubation, as well as them being exposed to the draft that I have already touched on.

What about my invert diet do you suspect? They are fed items high in calcium, are exposed to UV-B, are fed high protein, as well. Their diet is nutritionally complete, as stated by my vet. And yes, I trust this vet fully, because this is the vet that is staff at the aforementioned reptile house I volunteer at.

I would absolutely love a thread about incubation from you, because I get eggs on a regular basis, but haven't grasped incubation at all. To be quite blunt, I suck terribly at it.

As for the check ups, as I've said, they are from a vet that specializes in reptiles and has done plenty of field work (beaded lizards and gilas, as well as venomous snakes), and works with monitors on a daily basis. My vet keeps black tree monitors. I do a lot of rescue work, so I have the vet come up semi regularly. Tests have ranged from x-rays (most of the animals who come in from rescue have MBD, and when I first got my black throat it was thought that he had a mild case. He didn't, he was just weak from improper husbandry), to blood work, to basic physicals. I've had every single one of my females blood tested after they lay their third clutch of the year (because I'm fully aware of the stresses that egg laying has on a female), and so far I have only had one problem with the monitors I keep personally. This was my doreanus female, and I can touch on this if you ask, but it will probably be a longer post that has little to do with this subject.

bodiddleyitis

03-06-12, 02:04 PM

I know that most times when embryos go full term and die, it has very little to do with the actual incubation and more to do with the female who laid them. I suspect and would bet my last dollar that the all invert diet may have had much more to do with you dead in eggs than you incubation technique.

I'd agree with this on the basis of monitor and skink eggs I have found in the wild and incubated. I leave them on a shelf in half a coconut shell with a bit of dirt and forget about them until somebody sees baby lizards running about or I look inside and find empty egg shells. My incubation technique is almost as bad as Bature Ali's who incubates his wild dug eggs in a big wooden box full of sawdust. I've never had one not hatch, and nearly all of Bature's do. When they don't hatch he blames ants. On this basis I presume that eggs from wild (healthy?) females will almost always hatch unless they get flooded, overheat or get eaten by something.

crocdoc

03-06-12, 03:37 PM

From roughly 20 years (give or take) of incubating reptile eggs of many species, I know that most times when embryos go full term and die, it has very little to do with the actual incubation and more to do with the female who laid them. I suspect and would bet my last dollar that the all invert diet may have had much more to do with you dead in eggs than you incubation technique.

I agree with both Gregg and Daniel that incubation is highly unlikely to be the problem, but am inclined to disagree with Gregg (and would happily take his last dollar ;) ) on it being due to the invert diet until that is tested and proven. The most likely scenario is nesting and the length of time it took the female to lay eggs. Having eggs go full term only to have the embryos die in the egg is a classic sign of poor nesting. Can you recall how long it took for the females to lay after the first sign of mating activity (I realise this is tricky in a secretive species) and where the eggs were laid?

When it comes to testing the limits of eggs, I've inadvertently tested all sorts of crazy parameters. I've had my incubator drop from a cosy 30C to a chilly 15C (neighbour disconnected my electricity while I was overseas), I've had the incubator go up to a potentially lethal 39C (heat wave last summer), I've dropped an entire egg box full of eggs (and, fortunately, perlite which cushioned the impact) from chest height onto a hard concrete floor (butterfingers while showing off to a well-known BBC producer) and have dropped a freshly laid egg onto a ceramic tile floor and then watched it bounce back up a few cm before finally rolling away (I was stealing eggs from the nest box with the female was watching, when she decided to rush forward and I had to get my hand out of there quickly).

All of those eggs hatched - the only one still untested is the very last bounced egg, still incubating (along with the rest of its clutch-mates) as I type this. 'B2' has a lot of curious people waiting for an outcome.

The moral of the story is that healthy (ie properly and quickly laid) eggs are incredibly tough.

BarelyBreathing

03-06-12, 03:49 PM

Crocdoc, I only SEE them on average once a month. I have never seen them mate. I have never seen them lay. The only reason I knew there were eggs was because I reached my hand in there and felt them. I also believe that I didn't collect them right away after they were laid.

If I have nesting wrong, please tell me how I can improve. They have plenty of options to lay on the ground, and a great temperature and humidity gradient, as well as nest boxes.

The eggs were laid in the warmest nest box (the one closer to the basking spot). There were a few that were collected in a corner on the ground, just below the leaf litter.

crocdoc

03-06-12, 04:14 PM

If I have nesting wrong, please tell me how I can improve. They have plenty of options to lay on the ground, and a great temperature and humidity gradient, as well as nest boxes.

If I can help I'd be happy to, but I'll need a lot more detail. For example:

The only reason I knew there were eggs was because I reached my hand in there and felt them.
Start with describing 'there' in detail. If you could give a full description of the nest boxes, substrate, temperature gradient etc. I may be able to help and I'm sure Greg will be able to assist with his observations as well. I haven't bred this species and don't know their particular requirements, but some things are basic across many species.

infernalis

03-06-12, 04:21 PM

seems like we are wandering quite a bit from the topic here, would anyone object if I shaved this off to a thread of it's own?

It certainly seems to merit it's own discussion.

bodiddleyitis

03-06-12, 04:21 PM

ut the diet biase i claimed about savannahmonitor.org which based on Daniels comments has some base to-

I'm not comfortable with the dietary recommendations on that website, I honestly think giving "invertebrate only" advice to young, poor, novice keepers will cause more harm than good. The emphasis needs to be deep substrate and adequate thermal spectrum and humidity. This "no rodents" stuff is distracting from much more important issues. The owner of the website is aware of my concerns about this and the "selective" references and partial personal communications that are used. It is a great website but, as evidenced here and elsewhere, this rather extreme dietary position distracts from it.

infernalis

03-06-12, 04:39 PM

I'm not comfortable with the dietary recommendations on that website, I honestly think giving "invertebrate only" advice to young, poor, novice keepers will cause more harm than good. The emphasis needs to be deep substrate and adequate thermal spectrum and humidity. This "no rodents" stuff is distracting from much more important issues. The owner of the website is aware of my concerns about this and the "selective" references and partial personal communications that are used. It is a great website but, as evidenced here and elsewhere, this rather extreme dietary position distracts from it.

Thank you, as it was sadly proven, Chomper was given a diet of invertebrates and passed away in five years.

My errors were shallow dusty substrate, insufficient thermal options, utter lack of decent humidity and undoubtedly an overload of phosphates from frozen seafood in a quest to avoid rodents.

A tremendous amount of time and effort not to mention money was put into the new enclosure to ensure a better chance for survival when the new baby arrives in the next few weeks.

http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/varanid/90184-littlefoot-s-digs-day-3-a.html - My enclosure thread

The more I study the biology / physiology aspect, I am finding that many factors including but not limited to proper nutrition can and will lead to gout and renal failure.

In his final days, the sickness got extremely ugly, that poor animal suffered in ways I hope to never witness again as long as I live.

The knowledge that tens of thousands of these beautiful animals are dying the same gruesome way guts me from the very pit of my soul.

I intend to dedicate as much of my time and resources that I have to give in getting the message out there that these animals simply MUST be housed correctly regardless of food item choices.

BarelyBreathing

03-06-12, 05:04 PM

I'll start a thread when I get home, Wayne, so I can run through with my temp gun and such.

Gregg M

03-06-12, 05:49 PM

I agree with both Gregg and Daniel that incubation is highly unlikely to be the problem, but am inclined to disagree with Gregg (and would happily take his last dollar ;) ) on it being due to the invert diet until that is tested and proven. The most likely scenario is nesting and the length of time it took the female to lay eggs. Having eggs go full term only to have the embryos die in the egg is a classic sign of poor nesting.

Dave,
You can not possibly know what you are talking about. I am right and you are wrong. LOL.

On a serious note, I do not believe that a strict insect diet is enough to support consistantly successful breeding results. If there is any way it could, an exceeding amount of insects woud need to be consumed. especially during vitellogenesis and shelling.

jarich

03-06-12, 06:05 PM

Ok, this thread just got way more interesting with all the talk of incubating eggs. Even Im tired of hearing my own crap. ;)

Anyway, I just had a thought about Savannah monitors and their place in the hobby. I have a feeling that they are sort of the perfect lizard for the job unfortunately. Generally they are an active, cheap exotic that gets sold as an easily cared for pet. Whether its a mouse or a few crickets that they are told to throw in, its pretty much all the same. Simple, inexpensive and cool to show your friends. They are hardy, so they take at least a few months in the most horrible conditions, and possibly a year or more in substandard conditions, to die. By that time the impulse buy has worn off, and just around the time they start to get annoying (ie you might have to keep paying attention to cleaning their 30 gallon tank) they die. But they die far enough after being bought that the impulse buyer can think it was its time, or they had worms, or whatever else they might have heard to alleviate their responsibility and guilt. They rarely die immediately, so the pet store doesnt get any slack. Perfect. They are the pet equivalent of a purse or earrings, nothing more than a cheap accessory. Quickly bought and quickly forgotten. I think this is largely true because of their price. If they cost $300 a piece or more, like a lot of other monitors, you can bet there wouldnt be as many dead ones, no matter what the diet was.

While I know it can be a pain, maybe Australia has the right idea on such a tight lock down of their borders. I gotta be honest, its times like these that I cant help but think the exotic bans in the US might just be the best thing to happen to the hobby in a while...

infernalis

03-06-12, 06:28 PM

Gregg M

03-06-12, 06:29 PM

Ok, this thread just got way more interesting with all the talk of incubating eggs. Even Im tired of hearing my own crap. ;).
Ah, good natured debate is always a good thing. I have not seen you spout off any crap. It is nice to be able to throw ideas back and forth without seeing who can piss at a greater distance. LOL

Anyway, I just had a thought about Savannah monitors and their place in the hobby. I have a feeling that they are sort of the perfect lizard for the job unfortunately. Generally they are an active, cheap exotic that gets sold as an easily cared for pet. Whether its a mouse or a few crickets that they are told to throw in, its pretty much all the same. Simple, inexpensive and cool to show your friends. They are hardy, so they take at least a few months in the most horrible conditions, and possibly a year or more in substandard conditions, to die. By that time the impulse buy has worn off, and just around the time they start to get annoying (ie you might have to keep paying attention to cleaning their 30 gallon tank) they die. But they die far enough after being bought that the impulse buyer can think it was its time, or they had worms, or whatever else they might have heard to alleviate their responsibility and guilt. They rarely die immediately, so the pet store doesnt get any slack. Perfect. They are the pet equivalent of a purse or earrings, nothing more than a cheap accessory. Quickly bought and quickly forgotten. I think this is largely true because of their price. If they cost $300 a piece or more, like a lot of other monitors, you can bet there wouldnt be as many dead ones, no matter what the diet was.

I agree with this paragraph and it is not just limited to savs. It is also much easier to push blame on an animals than it is to admit to ones own sucky husbandry.

While I know it can be a pain, maybe Australia has the right idea on such a tight lock down of their borders. I gotta be honest, its times like these that I cant help but think the exotic bans in the US might just be the best thing to happen to the hobby in a while...

This I do not fully agree with. Regulation? yes. An all out ban? I can not support that. The bans that are being presented have little at all to do with the actual animals anyway.

With that being said, I find it odd that people talk about their "right" to keep reptiles and what not. I do not see reptile keeping as a "right". To me it is a privilege. I do not think that every Tom, D!ck, and Harry should have the privilege of owning reptiles.

My apologies to anyone named Tom, D!ck, or Harry. LOL

Most of these people go into instant denial when I show them my cage and tell them they need one like it.

Ah, what do you know Wayne? You are just another one of us inexperienced keepers. LOL

crocdoc

03-06-12, 10:37 PM

Dave,
You can not possibly know what you are talking about. I am right and you are wrong. LOL.

Ur knew to this hobbie. Success. Show me results. I have bread these to 2,450 generations. Success. Show me results. I started in 1952, long afore I was borned. Success. Show me results. Once, on a 2 week trip, I tracked one of these lizards for three years, watching everything it ate and riting down every clutch of eggs it layed. I followed its babies, too, until they were adults and bred. I followed all of them for five years. I'm really really good at tracking them, not like scientists. Success. Show me results. U no nuttin. Success. Show me results. HAHAHAHAHAAH. Sir.

This I do not fully agree with. Regulation? yes. An all out ban? I can not support that. The bans that are being presented have little at all to do with the actual animals anyway.
I think part of the reason for the current bans is having so many years of absolute freedom, without any regulations. Had regulations been implemented earlier, there wouldn't be such an all out push for bans now. I had this conversation with several people many years ago, long before the first ban and even talked about the likelihood for bans once trouble starts (like the unfortunate incident of the two year old being killed by her mother's boyfriend's python). The response I always got was about freedoms and rights.

Which leads me to the next thing:
With that being said, I find it odd that people talk about their "right" to keep reptiles and what not. I do not see reptile keeping as a "right". To me it is a privilege.
Spot on.

BarelyBreathing

03-06-12, 10:48 PM

The only thing I have to comment about "rights" is, what about the animals' "rights"? Does the animal not have a right to be free? If the animal does need to be locked up in a cage, doesn't the animal have the right to keepers who understand and care for it, who are prepared and capable of looking after it, and have an enclosure better than a glass fish tank?

BarelyBreathing

03-06-12, 10:49 PM

By the way, I know I said I would make a thread tonight, but I still haven't found but a few pictures. Gah!

Gregg M

03-06-12, 11:08 PM

Ur knew to this hobbie. Success. Show me results. I have bread these to 2,450 generations. Success. Show me results. I started in 1952, long afore I was borned. Success. Show me results. Once, on a 2 week trip, I tracked one of these lizards for three years, watching everything it ate and riting down every clutch of eggs it layed. I followed its babies, too, until they were adults and bred. I followed all of them for five years. I'm really really good at tracking them, not like scientists. Success. Show me results. U no nuttin. Success. Show me results. HAHAHAHAHAAH. Sir.

Dude, U spelled success wrong.

The only thing I have to comment about "rights" is, what about the animals' "rights"? Does the animal not have a right to be free? If the animal does need to be locked up in a cage, doesn't the animal have the right to keepers who understand and care for it, who are prepared and capable of looking after it, and have an enclosure better than a glass fish tank?

I love animals of all kinds, but to be quite honest, I do not believe that animals have "rights".

By the way, I know I said I would make a thread tonight, but I still haven't found but a few pictures. Gah!

We aint going anywhere. LOL. I am sure I can forgive you if it does not go up tonight. LOL

millertime89

03-07-12, 12:36 AM

I'll preface this by saying I do not keep Savs or any monitors, but am basing my (limited) posts in this thread on what I've read about them and other species. So I ask you to take what I say with some trepidation and feel free to correct me, but you'll find that I'm one of the more open minded people out there in regards to MOST (but certainly not all) topics.
On a serious note, I do not believe that a strict insect diet is enough to support consistantly successful breeding results. If there is any way it could, an exceeding amount of insects woud need to be consumed. especially during vitellogenesis and shelling.

I'm glad you mentioned this, because as I read the previous page this is something that came to mind. Animals need to build up a fat store (I believe its fat) prior to breeding, this then helps them to produce the most viable eggs/offspring. I was wondering if it was possible to give monitors sufficient fat(?) stores to support continued multi-clutching.

Heddy I really hope you sort out your incubation problems. If you're still having problems when I next make it to the area (September for sure, about time I make it back up there!) I'll gladly help you rearrange so you can move your incubator to the basement.

Gentlemen (and lady) please keep ban discussion to this thread.
http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/giant-python-discussion/89933-one-only-python-ban-thread-22.html#post697471
In fact, I welcome discussion as its the only way that we can come to reasonable solution to the problems in the industry. I will apologize in advance as it is something that I feel passionately about and have gotten nasty at times, but I try to stay levelheaded.

I would like to say I've read every post in this thread and look forward to reading the continued discussion, so please carry on as I feel it will be beneficial when I finally feel I am ready to own a monitor of my own.

jarich

03-07-12, 07:25 AM

infernalis

03-07-12, 07:35 AM

Sand? really? Hmm...

Sandy, not sand.. there is a difference.

I thought it might be useful to show a couple of pictures of the substrates that wild savannah monitor lizards live on. The philosophy that conditions in the wild should be replicated probably doesn't apply here because without a very substantial root structure I think these soils would be much too sandy for an enclosure. I'm posting them because I had a few questions about savannah monitor lizards living on "sandy substrates" that some people seem to have interpreted as meaning sand like at the beach or in a desert!

http://library.mampam.com/images/bokonpeatgh94s1.jpg

http://library.mampam.com/images/GHANA0151.jpg

Gregg M

03-07-12, 07:46 AM

I cant offer any proof regarding egg productive capabilities as I only have a male, but he is in no danger of being too skinny on inverts. Earthworms have a pretty decent amount of fat (around 12-15%), as do roaches and crickets depending on what you feed them.

Its not about being fat. Its about having enough stored energy to produce eggs. Also, you can not compare male to egg laying female. I agree that a mostly insect diet would be fine bur not a strict insect diet.

Also, how big/old is your boy?

mo9e64

03-07-12, 07:52 AM

Back to the diet aspects of Savs-when i was saying rodents should be a choice-i also agree with a comment that CrocDoc made about rodents being a dangerous in the hands of beginners.If someone gets successful result in which ever diet-it's not as simple as duplicating the diet but getting similar conditions they were successful using that diet.

Those that use the wild as a template-do you not see the negative impact of their environment.The reality is survival in captivity is dismal,but with proper husbandry you can control conditions so their growth rate and longevity can be greater than wild populations.

About monitors in captivity;Humans are selfish and they justify their actions-i am a hypocrite,as much as i want to say i'm doing it for the monitor the 'keeping aspect ' is all about me.The fact that you keep them properly and possibly breed them just makes it more positive outcome.If you say that you are keeping them because of habitat destruction,or too breed them to take stress off native population,deep down just admit it-it's because they intrigue you.Banning them from export/import would just save us from ourselves-it's their future to win or lose-if you really want to save them ,save the habitat-put pressure on importers/exporters.This is not an absolutist opinion because i do believe that some actions,projects are about survival of a species.

jarich

03-07-12, 08:02 AM

Its not about being fat. Its about having enough stored energy to produce eggs. Also, you can not compare male to egg laying female. I agree that a ostly insect diet would be fine bur not a strict insect diet.

Also, how big/old is your boy?

No, I understand, and sorry for simplifying it down to being fat. Its just that I cant see it being a common problem with monitors in captivity not having enough energy on either diet. Again, Im not against the odd rodent here or there and I can see that being an easy option for an egg laying female. I just wonder if it has been shown anywhere in a breeding program that they actually dont get enough energy from inverts. Again, I know that is arguing from a negative position (arguing from a lack of proof) but I hear it said so many times that inverts arent enough energy for breeding, yet have never heard of anyone actually trying it, aside from Barelybreathing.

Mine is only about a year old, and about two feet long

infernalis

03-07-12, 08:18 AM

Those that use the wild as a template-do you not see the negative impact of their environment.The reality is survival in captivity is dismal,but with proper husbandry you can control conditions so their growth rate and longevity can be greater than wild populations.

Bravo... This is absolutely correct. In captivity any animal that can be kept free of parasites and predation can and will outlive it's wild kith, provided proper care and environmental parameters are met.

About monitors in captivity;Humans are selfish and they justify their actions-i am a hypocrite,as much as i want to say i'm doing it for the monitor the 'keeping aspect ' is all about me.The fact that you keep them properly and possibly breed them just makes it more positive outcome.If you say that you are keeping them because of habitat destruction,or too breed them to take stress off native population,deep down just admit it-it's because they intrigue you.Banning them from export/import would just save us from ourselves-it's their future to win or lose-if you really want to save them ,save the habitat-put pressure on importers/exporters.This is not an absolutist opinion because i do believe that some actions,projects are about survival of a species.

Again very true, we are motivated entirely by our selfish desire to posses what we are fascinated with.

That attribute is what makes us human, and it will never change.. so with that in mind, what MUST change is making this flaw in human nature as comfortable for the animals as we can.

infernalis

03-07-12, 08:20 AM

Mine is only about a year old, and about two feet long

And with your eagerness to absorb information, ask questions and challenge illogical statements, I feel yours will outlast many others.

BarelyBreathing

03-07-12, 11:54 AM

millertime89

03-07-12, 01:46 PM

Average life span of a wild monitor: 20-30 years.

Debatable at best. I would say the more appropriate statement would be "Average life span of a monitor in optimal conditions: 20-30 years."

jarich

03-07-12, 01:55 PM

And with your eagerness to absorb information, ask questions and challenge illogical statements, I feel yours will outlast many others.

Thanks man! I appreciate the kind words

bodiddleyitis

03-07-12, 02:59 PM

Average life of a monitor in captivity: 1-5 years. Average life span of a wild monitor: 20-30 years.

Sorry but that is absolute nonsense. Do the math(s). Even if they didn't reach sexual maturity until they were ten and they only bred twice in their lives, I think you will find that after 50 generations the weight of monitor lizards would exceed the weight of the planet they live on, or something like that.
I think you have some rosy view of wild monitor lizards living in some Arcadian paradise, dining on the finest foods and living to a ripe old age. In fact they are scabby, they have ticks, the ones that live on snails and frogs are riddled with parasites, very few survive a year and, assuming a stable population, only two of a female's offspring from her entire reproductive life will survive to reproduce themselves.

Where do you get this stuff from? Disney?

Trent

03-07-12, 03:39 PM

Sorry but that is absolute nonsense. Do the math(s). Even if they didn't reach sexual maturity until they were ten and they only bred twice in their lives, I think you will find that after 50 generations the weight of monitor lizards would exceed the weight of the planet they live on, or something like that.
I think you have some rosy view of wild monitor lizards living in some Arcadian paradise, dining on the finest foods and living to a ripe old age. In fact they are scabby, they have ticks, the ones that live on snails and frogs are riddled with parasites, very few survive a year and, assuming a stable population, only two of a female's offspring from her entire reproductive life will survive to reproduce themselves.

Where do you get this stuff from? Disney?
Very well said...quite refreshing to have you here!

infernalis

03-07-12, 03:47 PM

So just out of curiosity, what could one expect, if the most ideal conditions were provided?

bodiddleyitis

03-07-12, 04:32 PM

As a maximum rather than an average? I think in captivity 20-30 years has been recorded for both big monitors (griseus) and Odatrians (scalaris). For wild monitors it's very hard to estimate. It was done for niloticus in Chad I think, by staining the bones prior to killing them and then cutting the bones and counting growth rings. I am quite certain that there were one or two male butaan at my study site that might have been over 50, but that is based only on the fact that I recaught one after 8 or 9 years that had hardly grown, and still looked relatively youthful. At least one of those old men is dead now. Crocdoc is probably a better person to ask, he sees a lot more lizards than me.
Some of the larger bodied species reach a size where they don't have any natural predators; at that stage they will only die when they get sick, starve or have an accident. I suspect it also depends on the rate of metabolism; animals that spend a lot of time inactive might not age as fast as those that are busy every day. Guess guess guess guess guess......

infernalis

03-07-12, 05:41 PM

Crocdoc is probably a better person to ask, he sees a lot more lizards than me....

He has reported to us right here seeing the same Lace monitors around him some for a dozen years.

crocdoc

03-07-12, 06:08 PM

Interesting discussions.

Moe, I agree with you about people's purported motives for keeping monitors and chuckle (or facepalm) whenever I read about people's desires to 'save' monitors from habitat destruction or the leather trade by keeping them in captivity. There's no tacit agreement between the leather industry and live collectors such that when one is removed from the wild to become someone's pet the leather guys kill one less. It is additive - one is removed for the pet trade and one is killed for leather, totalling two. My favourite posts are the ones from people that think Australia should export monitors so that they can 'save' them from cars (after they've seen a photograph of a road-killed monitor) or cane toads. Collecting them just adds an extra pressure on the population, because then the monitors have to deal with cars, cane toads and the pet collectors (this is just an example, for I don't really think cars are a serious threat to their populations).

As Wayne said, people keep monitors because there's a human desire to possess things we find beautiful or fascinating. If someone wants to do 'good' by the wild monitor populations, I always suggest that they breed their captives, not to be re-released into the wild but to supply the market for pet monitors. Otherwise the market will just get them from the wild. If people don't want to breed them and just want a pet, endeavour to get a species that is captive bred. It's not that I think collection from the wild can't be sustainable if it is done properly and is carefully monitored (excuse the pun). Unfortunately, many collection techniques aren't very sustainable and some populations may be too small to start with for ongoing collection.

Daniel, I agree with you that monitor recruitment is pretty low and if someone were to take into account all of the babies that die within the first year when calculating longevity, the overall average would paint a picture of a short-lived animal. As you've said, though, with some of the larger species once the hatchlings reach adulthood they do have a good chance at living a long time (unnatural death from humans, cars and cane toads aside). Lace monitors are one of those species and I've been blown away by how stable their populations are in the areas I've been casually watching and photographing them over the years. Not just the animals that come in and out of the picnic area I frequent near my home but a population living on the large property of friends on the south coast. I started photographing the ones near me around 12 years ago and am still seeing some of the same animals 12 years later. Much like you have observed with butaan, the animals I've been watching and photographing were adults 12 years ago (one of them an old looking adult) and most haven't grown noticeably in that time - so unless I coincidentally arrived on the very year they slowed in growth, this suggests they were that size for a while before I first saw them and were all at least 10 years old then - making even the youngest ones over 20 years old now. I do see subadults or juveniles now and then, but the vast majority of the animals I see, both near me and on the property down south, are adults that don't seem to change from year to year. When I read David Carter's thesis on lace monitor reproduction I can recall him finding something similar. He was capturing the adult monitors in his study area to determine reproductive state and to place transmitters on some and consequently had the opportunity to measure them. None showed a significant amount of growth during his four year study, suggesting that they've been in that same stage of life for a while.

For the monitors in the park near me, I suspect one of them is at least 30-35 years old and suspect they can live to be over 40.

Interestingly, when I was in Queensland last week I spent a few days with Tim J and naturally we did a fair bit of herping. The weather wasn't ideal for monitors, but on the one sunny day we went looking for monitors. He said that almost all of the lace monitors in his area (and there are a lot of them) are small and appear to be juveniles to subadults. True to his word, the four we saw on that one sunny day fit that description, with only one animal being a small adult at best. There is either relatively high recruitment going on there (perhaps a few good, wet years 3-4 years ago) or something is knocking off the adults.

bodiddleyitis

03-07-12, 06:37 PM

Could it be food or parasites keeping them small? Salvator sp. in forests tend to be very small, whilst the ones in the mangroves are huge. The forest ones seem to subsist on a rather meager diet, but they are also exposed to a lot more predators I suspect. Also they don't seem to last more than 3 or 4 years, based on a very limited set of recapture data. What I've never seen in the wild is a really old female, but I guess they don't get old by making themselves visible to the likes of me! Other than repeated sightings of the same individuals there isn't a satisfactory way of aging monitors that I am aware of.
Tim J: that lad has such a pair of eyes on him. When he came to the Philippines he spotted a pair of lizards mating on a tree from far away in deep twilight. I could hardly see the tree....

crocdoc

03-07-12, 08:12 PM

These ones were mostly young. I've seen small adults before and they usually look older, darker and more weathered, albeit small, whereas these ones still had the bright colours and pristine skin of youth. I managed to get decent photographs of one and a fleeting shot of another that looked near identical in size and appearance.

Here's the one I managed to get a lot of reasonable photographs of. It appears to be a female, so it's never going to get very big anyway, but it's still not quite adult size.

http://www.pbase.com/crocdoc/image/141821218.jpg

I don't know what butaan are like (I would imagine they are even more flightly), but seeing any female varius is a bonus, never mind an old one! Females are very elusive and will almost never be seen using the same techniques one would see the males (ie just walking around). They see us long before we see them and quietly disappear up the far side of a tree. The times I've seen adult females have usually been when I've been sitting perfectly still for long periods while waiting quietly for something else (such as the nesting heath monitor I posted photographs of in another thread). Here's one I photographed while doing that a couple of years ago. It was really dark, which normally suggests an older animal, but it could just be hypermelanistic.
http://www.pbase.com/crocdoc/image/122348646.jpg

This is the only (I think) female I've seen occasionally patrol a picnic area. It's tiny, yet has the dark, faded pattern of an older adult. The first time I saw it I thought it was a juvenile, but then I saw the very same animal two years later and it hadn't grown at all.
http://www.pbase.com/crocdoc/image/117207700.jpg

Compared to an adult male:
http://www.pbase.com/crocdoc/image/117207699.jpg

bodiddleyitis

03-07-12, 08:22 PM

I don't know what butaan are like (I would imagine they are even more flightly), but seeing any female varius is a bonus, never mind an old one!

They are a complete nightmare! I suppose females take fewer risks and that's why they aren't seen as often. Great pics as always!

millertime89

03-08-12, 01:14 AM

Where do you get this stuff from? Disney?

Easy there tigre.

millertime89

03-08-12, 01:26 AM

crocdoc

03-08-12, 03:27 AM

However that brings us to a stalemate when countries ban the capture, keeping, and exportation of their respective monitor species.
How is that a stalemate? You've lost me there.

infernalis

03-08-12, 05:22 AM

How is that a stalemate? You've lost me there.

Me too.

Damming up rivers, mining, deforestation for farming and urbanization is wiping out habitat and claiming critters faster than our thirst for captive exotic animals.

bodiddleyitis

03-08-12, 05:47 AM

Me too.

Damming up rivers, mining, deforestation for farming and urbanization is wiping out habitat and claiming critters faster than our thirst for captive exotic animals.
Not in the case of endemic species that live on very small islands where the gravid females are specifically targeted.
The argument about habitat destruction being the real culprit is used over and over again by the animal trade to detract from conservation concerns. But for species like melinus, reisingeri, boehmei, spinulosus and beccarii it's a smokescreen that could have the most horrible consequences.

infernalis

03-08-12, 06:03 AM

Not in the case of endemic species that live on very small islands where the gravid females are specifically targeted.
The argument about habitat destruction being the real culprit is used over and over again by the animal trade to detract from conservation concerns. But for species like melinus, reisingeri, boehmei, spinulosus and beccarii it's a smokescreen that could have the most horrible consequences.

Why are gravid females targeted?

By smokescreen I assume the "pet profiteers" lay blame on habitat destruction to cloud their impact?

crocdoc

03-08-12, 06:44 AM

Why are gravid females targeted?

So they can get eggs and then sell babies as 'CB'.

bodiddleyitis

03-08-12, 06:51 AM

Why are gravid females targeted?

By smokescreen I assume the "pet profiteers" lay blame on habitat destruction to cloud their impact?

This is a very important point and, having nothing to do with savannah monitors, I'll address it in a separate post.

BarelyBreathing

03-08-12, 12:44 PM

Sorry but that is absolute nonsense. Do the math(s). Even if they didn't reach sexual maturity until they were ten and they only bred twice in their lives, I think you will find that after 50 generations the weight of monitor lizards would exceed the weight of the planet they live on, or something like that.
I think you have some rosy view of wild monitor lizards living in some Arcadian paradise, dining on the finest foods and living to a ripe old age. In fact they are scabby, they have ticks, the ones that live on snails and frogs are riddled with parasites, very few survive a year and, assuming a stable population, only two of a female's offspring from her entire reproductive life will survive to reproduce themselves.

Where do you get this stuff from? Disney?

You really need to mind your attitude.

There have been several monitor reasearchers who have tracked monitors living to be around that age. Crocdoc is one of them.

millertime89

03-08-12, 02:44 PM

stalemate, we can't take the burden of survival off of the wild animals because we can't take the wild animals into captivity.

bodiddleyitis

03-08-12, 03:23 PM

You really need to mind your attitude.

There have been several monitor reasearchers who have tracked monitors living to be around that age. Crocdoc is one of them.

Maybe you don't know what average means?

crocdoc

03-08-12, 03:25 PM

stalemate, we can't take the burden of survival off of the wild animals because we can't take the wild animals into captivity.

Yes, but the drift of my post was that you can't take the burden of survival off of the wild animals even if you do take them into captivity.

You really need to mind your attitude.
There have been several monitor reasearchers who have tracked monitors living to be around that age. Crocdoc is one of them.

BarelyBreathing, I suspect Daniel was jumping on your use of the word 'average' rather than 'potential'.

Average life of a monitor in captivity: 1-5 years. Average life span of a wild monitor: 20-30 years.

crocdoc

03-08-12, 03:36 PM

Damn - you must have snuck in your post as I was typing mine, Daniel! The little timestamps on the left hand side suggest this was the case.

Gregg M

03-08-12, 04:54 PM

What I meant to say was "the average life of captive monitors is less than five years, where as wild monitors can live up to 30".

I do not think we can ascertain either way what the "average" life expectancy would be for a varanid in captivity or in the wild. A captive monitor in ideal conditions would have no less chance of reaching aduthood than a wild monitor. If anything, I would be more inclined to think a captive varanid would have a slightly better chance.

Also, we can not say that just because a lace may have the potential to live up to 40 years, it means all species have the same potential.

BarelyBreathing

03-08-12, 05:04 PM

But the fact of the matter is very few people can provide ideal conditions, nor would they be willing to.

crocdoc

03-08-12, 05:14 PM

A captive monitor in ideal conditions...
Ah, but what's being discussed here is that they rarely encounter anything approaching ideal conditions in captivity.

Also, we can not say that just because a lace may have the potential to live up to 40 years, it means all species have the same potential.
No one is saying that - both Daniel and I have said 'some large species'. However, I can assure you that even if a savannah monitor's potential lifespan is far less than that of a lace monitor, 99.9% of captives don't approach anywhere near their potential.

I think a lot of reptiles have much longer potential lifespans than we realise, not just monitors. A good friend here in Australia who is an excellent keeper (and not at all prone to lying) has had bluetongues live for 38 years and a water dragon, wild caught as an adult (so it was already a few years old when acquired), live for another 29 years. Here's the clincher - he has a Cunningham's skink that he got from someone else in 1968. The other keeper had owned it for a few years (4-5) and it was a wild caught adult when he first got it, so probably already a few years old. Last week I was having dinner at this friend's place and there were a couple of biologists/herpetologists there. When the conversation got onto longevity, I asked him about the Cunningham's. I hadn't asked about it in years and had assumed it had died ages ago, so my question was worded "how long did that Cunningham's skink live, in the end?" His answer was "to tell you the truth, I haven't seen it for a couple of months so it may finally be dead, but I've thought that before and have dug out its enclosure to find it fat and happy" (it is housed outdoors).

Even if that skink is now dead, it has lived for at least 50 years. I'd be really surprised if the potential lifespan for a savannah monitor, a much larger reptile which also takes longer to reach sexual maturity in the wild, would be only 10 years. It will probably not be anywhere near 50, but surely a lot longer than captives are currently living.

Gregg M

03-08-12, 05:37 PM

Even if that skink is now dead, it has lived for at least 50 years. I'd be really surprised if the potential lifespan for a savannah monitor, a much larger reptile which also takes longer to reach sexual maturity in the wild, would be only 10 years. It will probably not be anywhere near 50, but surely a lot longer than captives are currently living.

I want to see some data and proof. Can you provide a receipt from when your friend bought the skink, Sir? Can you provide the feeding records from the last 50 years, Sir? LMFAO...

I understand what you are saying Dave, but can we really formulate an average life span in the wild or in captivity? Thats what I was getting at. Has there actually been any (and I hate to use this word LOL) data compiled from keepers around the world?

I do not feel that there is much difference in the number of animals that live to their potential in captivity to those in the wild percentage wise. And in my opinion, there are too many variables in both situations to even get a round about number.

crocdoc

03-09-12, 01:49 AM

It's a tricky one. Higher survival rate of hatchlings in captivity because there are no predators, but once they reach that size/age at which they'd be smooth sailing in the wild they start dropping off in captivity. I think more wild ones reach their potential than captives, in terms of longevity, especially when talking about savannah monitors and Niles.

infernalis

03-09-12, 02:21 AM

It is my goal (weather I can reach it or not is another question) to keep the new one alive for so long that no one believes me when I tell them about it.

BTW - I was just watering my enclosure and I have a whole bunch of crickets running around in there, I have not purchased any crickets, the cricket eggs in the sod I harvested from my lawn have hatched!! there is a whole micro ecosystem in that cage, and it's flourishing!!

Of course, next week when I drop a baby monitor in there, that micro ecosystem is going to get eaten quickly.

Freebody

03-09-12, 07:36 PM

my 2 cents..... sure savs eat rodents in the wild, i agree savs are oportuntic feeders, mine will eat anything im sure, mine tries to eat the the sofa for crying out loud lol and sure conditions are harsh in africa so sure they would need to adapt, but heres the problem i see with this, 1 savs in the wild can afford to eat rodents, ie Trash food like are potatoe chips we all love, but <<<< the freaking are in the wild running god knows how much distance burning off all that **** food and avoiding the bad side effects, a body builders diet would kill a couch potatoe, but works out fine for the lifter, 2 is the same as i just said, they can afford to eat the tasty not so good for them junk, and 3, treat your sav as you would your child, i have seen miricale stories of infants survival horrific events, many people have suffered child abuse and all sorts, and survived and even lead a succesfull life, BUT!! Just because maybe you could treat it like **** and it could even survive just fine perhaps, Why the hell would you want your child/sav for say, to go through that??? so why would you not just try your best to give it as close to the natural living conditions as posible with out argument? sounds like kinda a crazy argument ? dont mean to sound rude, im really not trying to, just keep reading these 3 points over and over and it boggle my mind, im not by and sence of the word a pro keeper, as im sure when im old and grey i hope to be still learning about my passion as im sure we all, i love the sav threads here, but sifting through this to get the diamond in the rough is a little hard some times :) oh and whats the title of the book i should read, im interested in reading this book, and learn more about wild savs? thanks.

infernalis

03-09-12, 08:08 PM

Freebody

03-09-12, 08:31 PM

sweet thanks wayne, thats the one i was looking at. looks like that sav pic is in the wild, wonder why its so skinny and gaunt looking, i bet it didnt make it more than a few weeks after that photo :( If i ever seen one looking like that in person and it wasnt at a rescue place or somthing, someone would not be walking away from that meeting, and im sure it would not me me.... really sad.

bodiddleyitis

03-09-12, 09:24 PM

Ha ha ha ha ha, I left that one for the crow to pluck ;)

"sure savs eat rodents in the wild, i agree savs are oportuntic feeders"

Savannah monitors aren't opportunistic feeders in the wild. They are after very specific types of prey and none of them are rodents. I think that's because they couldn't compete with all the other animals that are feeding on rodents; if they come across small enough rodents of course they will eat them but the search patterns they use turn up a rather narrow range of invertebrates, snails, and frogs with the odd reptile egg and that's what is in their guts almost all of the time. Of course the range of the species is very wide and our sample sizes are very small, but so far its feeding ecology looks rather specialised compared to opportunistic monitor species.

I think that you can recognise, or define, opportunistic monitors in the wild, by seeing if they are attracted to rotten carrion. If you try to bait monitor lizards with carrion in Africa you will get niloticus but you will not get exanthematicus. If you did it in Malaysia you would get biawaks and bengalensis but you would not get rudicollis and you probably wouldn't get dumerilii either. If you did in the Philippines you would only get biawaks. It's a useful definition because it's a very easy test. I'd guess that if you did it in Indonesia you wouldn't get prasinus type animals and you have some surprise non shows amongst the others.

What do we know about the natural diets of these monitors that can't be attracted with bait? Of course their range is wide and our sample sizes are very small but they seem to have very tight dietary niches compared to their opportunistic counterparts. There's a conspicuous lack of what I would call snake food.

Incidentally; these non carrion eating monitor lizards tend to perform poorly in captivity, especially the ones that live in wet forests. In contrast the carrion eaters are generally considered quite easy to breed.

How such idle speculation can be applied to the feeding of monitor lizards in boxes is uncertain, because all monitor lizards that can be bred in boxes will apparently thrive for indefinite generations on a diet of rodents and invertebrates. There's (almost?) no documented evidence of generations of captive monitors raised without rodents, but for many years now people have been banging on about how vital it is to omit rodents from the diets of savannah monitor lizards in particular. Why could that be?

David H. Good 1998, REPTILE magazine. Misunderstanding the Savannah Monitor: An Argument for Changed Husbandry.

This junk article was based on a talk the author had heard, but apparently entirely failed to comprehend, about wild savannah monitors. The talk was at the only monitor lizard conference that has ever been held in the USA, in San Diego. David Good spectacularly got every single detail in his article wrong, and the only thing he remembered correctly was that no rodents had been found in the diet of savannah monitors. He used this to suggest a rethink of savannah monitor husbandry that should have landed him in prison. Ever since it's been regularly rehashed by generations of monitor keepers who have spectacularly failed to breed their lizards. "They need a natural diet in captivity", what utter nonsense.

What David Good should have done was listen to another talk on the same day by a man nobody in the monitor lizard world had ever heard of. I can honestly say that nobody I knew in that room believed a word of it at the time, but it sparked a complete revolution in the way monitor lizards were kept. More importantly, it introduced a completely different philosophy to the husbandry of captives; that captive conditions should improve on natural conditions rather than replicate them. In nature monitor lizards are constrained by limited heat, water, food and shelters. By removing these constraints he claimed monitor lizards would grow at phenomenal rates and become fecund beyond all expectations. When members of the audience objected to basking temperatures so high they could easily kill the lizards, he claimed that the monitors sought such heat out of their own free will.

"so why would you not just try your best to give it as close to the natural living conditions as posible with out argument? sounds like kinda a crazy argument ?" Not really, because natural conditions are harsh and it's just possible that savannah monitors actually prefer rodents to milipedes.

Anybody who has read to the end of this ramble deserves a nice picture
http://library.mampam.com/images/summut091Shai-Hills-Bature1997.jpg

jarich

03-09-12, 10:26 PM

Im not sure I see the logic in your argument the same as you do Daniel. To me the idea that we can do better than nature seems like an old idea. I think a lot of the knowledge about reptiles, nutrition and varanids has grown in the last 15 years as well. And with those improved conditions, we are learning that some things are obviously good to change, like removing their natural predators and giving them enough energy on a regular basis. However, we have also learned that certain things need to stay close to their natural situation, like deep substrate, humidity and I truly believe one day, diet will be one of those. Not in the sense that its going to kill a monitor to have the odd rodent, but more in the sense of refocusing people on exactly what they are feeding their lizards. The more I read on this subject the more I am convinced; as we pay better attention to the feeder prey, the better it is for the lizard. And I just think that inverts are a more nutritious source of their energy. It may not be easier, it may not be simple, but then I think that is pretty descriptive of monitors in general

bodiddleyitis

03-09-12, 11:24 PM

Fair comment Jarich. The problem is that you need to demonstrate that there is a diet that doesn't include rodents that can be used to maintain captive populations of monitor lizards through reproductive generations before you can safely say it shouldn't be done (I'm sure I've said this before). At the moment that evidence is entirely lacking, it's only internet rumours. That is the logic to my argument, otherwise I agree with you 100%.

infernalis

03-09-12, 11:42 PM

"so why would you not just try your best to give it as close to the natural living conditions as posible with out argument? sounds like kinda a crazy argument ?" Not really, because natural conditions are harsh and it's just possible that savannah monitors actually prefer rodents to milipedes.

Anybody who has read to the end of this ramble deserves a nice picture

Near the end when Chomper started refusing food I placed small live rats in his enclosure, he pursued, killed and ate those rats with gusto, even though he was sick, showing very clearly that he preferred them.

Rationalize it any way you want, he refused all the food items he used to readily take, he ignored live insects, yet the very moment the small weanling rats entered his enclosure, he hit them hard like a monitor should.

Everyone should read that to the end.

And thank you for the nice picture.

BarelyBreathing

03-10-12, 12:53 AM

infernalis

03-10-12, 01:07 AM

There is a theory behind that, Wayne. The theory is that a sick monitor would choose the food item that a: is easiest to catch (which is taken out of the equation if you're tong feeding or offering dead prey), and/or b: offers the highest source of nutrients with the least amount of effort. (Now I'm not saying that rats offer better nutrients than bugs, I'm simply stating that one rat is more nutritious than one bug.)

The live rat was not tong fed, he had to chase it down.

The bugs were offered at point blank range requiring no effort to take.

After seeing clear photographs of emaciated sickly wild lizards, I would find it cruel and inhumane to subject my captive animals to conditions that mimic their "natural" environment.

I am not saying it would be healthy to stuff an exanthematicus full of mice on a daily basis, but the reality of it is that given a healthy environment I don't perceive an occasional rodent as a lethal prey item either.

This entire journey has been an educational experience and will remain so as long as I keep an open mind. I simply cannot sit by stubbornly and not evaluate and reevaluate what is being said here.

My copy of the book has been ordered and when I recieve it I will read it cover to cover, twice if I have to, and I will take to heart what I read.

BarelyBreathing

03-10-12, 01:09 AM

Nobody has ever said that the occasional mouse is lethal. The argument at hand is whether or not they are beneficial. They're the savannah monitor equivilent to feeding a child a Big Mac.

KORBIN5895

03-10-12, 09:07 AM

I am not saying it would be healthy to stuff an exanthematicus full of mice on a daily basis, but the reality of it is that given a healthy environment I don't perceive an occasional rodent as a lethal prey item either.

I think you brought this conversation to the whole crux of the debate. Housing and
Moderation.

I am ignorant and have no personal experience with monitors. I don't have data, success or proof on what I am about to say.Hahaha! Sir.

In all honesty from what I have read here and elsewhere it seems 99% percent of all sav keepers (I don't know about other species) are ignorant and need hard and fast rules. This is proven by them doggedly saying the pet store knows best. They pack them into small aquariums with screen tops and say " the Savannah is dry. Why does it need more humidity?" They can't get past the fact that they fell for a lie so they hold onto to make it true. I have creeped other places looking at some truly scary sav enclosures.

As for the moderation part, moderation isn't the word I am looking for so someone please feel free to supply it or correct me.

It took Wayne almost five years and a tragic loss to come to the conclusion that it is okay to feed the occasional rodent. How long does it take people to realize an all rodent diet is killing their pet? Or better yet how many savs does it take to realize that. I was at my local pet store last night and a customer bought their third sac in two and a half years. The first two died in less than a year. People don't seem able to moderate what they do. It is one extreme or the other.

mo9e64

03-10-12, 09:14 AM

-I see rodents as being like a balanced meal with an occassional Big Mac.You have a kid who sits infront of a TV

mo9e64

03-10-12, 09:16 AM

sorry continuing my thought. You have a kid sitting infront of a tv all day and an active kid and that Big Mac has two different results.

mo9e64

03-10-12, 09:25 AM

Korbin5895 are you referring to Daniels post?

infernalis

03-10-12, 10:08 AM

Korbin5895 are you referring to Daniels post?

No he's not, his (Korbin) nickname is village idiot.

Don't feel bad, I thought the same thing for about ten seconds before it sunk in.

KORBIN5895

03-10-12, 10:34 AM

Korbin5895 are you referring to Daniels post?

Actually I love a good debate. Heck, I love a good argument too! My post is referring to all the crap I see when I am out there lurking. I truly don't have a dog on this fight. What I see is people getting sold a pet that isn't really good pet material because most people are too lazy to do it right. The lady from the pet store last night was feeding her savs canned dog food ( possibly canned cat food) and rodents. Her enclosure is made of 2x4 and chicken wire with aspen bedding. At least that is what the worker told me as I didn't talk to her personally.

So where does this kind of crap leave us? If we don't all learn from the mistakes being made what good are any of these debates? It's obvious that no one has sav husbandry down to a science yet and according to Greg and Daniel no one has published solid evidence on an all invert yet. Somethings are blatantly obvious like the canned dog food is terrible for them. While other things are still obscure, like what happens when kept at 75% humidity.

Savs are really an unplowed field. It seems we don't know a lot of the truly important pieces. To me it seems that ignorance and dogmatic beliefs in the rediculous are what causes the death of so many savs.

My disclaimer : everything I have posted has been personal observations unsupported by scientific evidence. If you don't like what was said or disagree feel free to correct me. If you just want to be a tool feel free cause I couldn't care less.:)

Gregg M

03-10-12, 06:18 PM

Nobody has ever said that the occasional mouse is lethal. The argument at hand is whether or not they are beneficial. They're the savannah monitor equivilent to feeding a child a Big Mac.

That is just rediculous. They are nothing like big macs. Do you have the data to compare that? Like the dietary needs of a kid compared to a savannah And then stack those result against a mouse and a burger from a fast food joint? I am trying not to be picky here but I see lots of unsubstantiated claims being thrown around here as if it were factual information.

Mikey T

03-10-12, 06:33 PM

funny thing is ... big macs are not ALL bad... have you ever read the amount of protein in one... (not saying they are healthy just making a point that they are not the worst thing in the world) if you look at some of the "healthy" food we eat as humans you wouldn't dare feed something with the same nutrient content to your pet. example.... celery, complete void of anything, like drinking a nasty tasting glass of water, bean sprouts, same thing. iceberg lettuce, more or less the same. and i'm sure there are tons more, i just can't think of any rright now.

BarelyBreathing

03-10-12, 06:39 PM

jarich

03-10-12, 06:59 PM

Well, ok Ill pipe up a little here. Gregg and Mikey, you both need to look a little closer at specific information I guess. Mikey, youre right in saying that in and of itself a Big Mac isnt that terrible. Look them up Gregg, they are high in fat and sugars, but also have a lot of calcium, iron and vitamin A and C, oddly enough. Mikey, thats about as far as I can agree with you though as celery is actually an incredibly healthy vegetable. Very high in calcium, potassium, vitamin A, K, C, Folate, and fiber. Iceberg lettuce is less beneficial but not totally devoid, although you are right about bean sprouts as they are pretty much just water and a bit of fiber.

I guess the point is that, as with all nutrition, these things should be looked at within the variety of a total diet. Of course a mouse isnt a bad thing in and of itself, they too have many vitamins and minerals in them. I believe the point Barelybreathing was trying to make is that, like a hamburger, a mouse is something that should be occasional. Just like a hamburger, you dont want to go eating them everyday as the fats will catch up with you. Remember, fats are not just about lots of calories to burn off with a high metabolism, the quality of the fats are important too.

A diet made up of a high variety of well fed invertebrates means that the fat in the odd mouse isnt going to be any problem at all, and will be devoured for the high caloric meal it is. I do not believe the same can be said of the inverse though. A diet high in rodents with the occasional inverts will lead to a animal with a system overtaxed by saturated fats. Will it kill the animal? I dont know. But it makes no sense to say that its good for it either.

My continual question seems largely ignored by most people who feed rodents regularly. What nutrition exactly are you feeding your feeders?

Bradyloach

03-10-12, 07:02 PM

Im feeding my crickets potato and collard greens!

BarelyBreathing

03-10-12, 07:04 PM

Im feeding my crickets potato and collard greens!

You can do a lot better than that. You basically want to feed your feeders the same greens and veggies that you would want your bearded dragon to eat.

infernalis

03-10-12, 07:10 PM

You know, we are circling back to enclosures here, a puny enclosure that is too damn small for a monitor to occupy itself will cause obesity even with the leanest of diets.

A nice big spacious enclosure, lots of things to do and opportunities to burn those calories and presto! the fat is a lot less of an issue.

as much as I HATE this big mac comparison in a monitor thread, here goes...

2 kids eat six big macs a week.

One sits in his room all day playing video games, The other rides his bike to the park and plays football for 3 hours a day, then rides his bike back home and plays in the back yard for a couple more hours before calling it a day.

One kid gets fat, the other does not.

Now another point I really need to get out, while we are on the topic of things to do.

I honestly feel Monitors can get bored, boredom leads to depression, when they get where they just sit in the cage and stare listlessly out the front window, you are failing your lizard people.

A happy lizard that is NOT bored out of it's mind will be too damn occupied doing things to get fat on a few mice here and there.

It has already been established that Monitors are very intelligent, so why would you lock an intelligent creature in solitary confinement without anything to do?

jarich

03-10-12, 07:15 PM

Ok, thats a start Brady, but its not too difficult to take it a little further and really make them a healthy meal for your Sav. Go out and buy the following items:

Organic whole grain corn meal ($3 a pound)
Alfalfa ($4 for a 5 pound bag)
Organic whole grain wheat flour ($3 a pound)
Oats ($2 for a pound)
Soybean meal ($3 a pound)

Those prices are here in NYC, so I cant imagine them even being as much anywhere else. Thats around 5 pounds of feed for $15! Now put that in your cricket container in the same amount as you offer the vegetables. (by the way, Id get rid of your potatoes as they arent as good nutritionally) For vegetables I use green beans, squash, collards and carrots. All nice and cheap too.

Now for very little money and not a lot of effort you will have crickets with roughly three times the nutritional content of what you are feeding now. Feed the same to your roaches.

And yes, I do have MANY articles to back up these claims. ;)

Bradyloach

03-10-12, 07:20 PM

Oh no doubt! I know patatos arent good! I'm being honest here, patatos last the longest without getting moldy I was just lazy :/ sorry guys

BarelyBreathing

03-10-12, 07:22 PM

I honestly feel Monitors can get bored, boredom leads to depression, when they get where they just sit in the cage and stare listlessly out the front window, you are failing your lizard people.

I have been saying this over and over and over, and people think I'm crazy. Haha. That's why I always promote putting worms in the substrate. It stimulates the animal both physically and mentally.

Now on to your active child analogy. You are completely correct. Active child is less likely to get fat because of his lifestyle. But....

Would you rather active child eat Big Macs six days a week or instead use those meals to promote healthier meals that better support his lifestyle?

Bradyloach

03-10-12, 07:24 PM

Wayne it doesn't matter if they both eat big macs, let me continue your theory!

Kid a goes on to age 14 but he's obese and does cause its heart is clogged!

Kid b goes on to age 14 not obese but has a heck load of acne and his gf breaks up with him and he gets sad and goes home and eats more, and more! Then eventually he has a heart attack! Boom ether way they both die!

jarich

03-10-12, 09:53 PM

Okay, first off, if your fresh vegetables are molding it means you are putting too much in I think. Maybe try cutting back on the amount of fresh stuff you put in there? (Ive got 2000 or so now so I have the opposite problem) But really, do try to get that dry food I put above. Its meant to increase the vitamin and mineral potential of your feeders, and its really simple. Just get a big plastic container and mix it up; it'll keep forever in a sealed container. For the amount of roaches and crickets you have just drop a tablespoon in. Inverts have been shown again and again to go for the food that has what they are lacking in their diet. They are smarter than vertebrates that way! ;) Give them the dry food and then some fresh veggies for water and they will be great feeders.

Bradyloach

03-10-12, 10:13 PM

Okay! So I dont have to put it in multiple places so try can all eat? I put 2 oranges in my roach every 2 days, I can just put a half of one?

Gregg M

03-11-12, 08:51 AM

Yes, I do have the data to back up this conclusion.

Nutrition Feeder Mice | Nutrient Composition of Feeder Animals (http://www.rodentpro.com/qpage_articles_03.asp)

Please take a look at this chart. Is the amount of fat in rodents something you'd want to translate over to a diet you would feed your children?

But the more important thing you are missing is the dietary needs of a child compared to that of a savannah monitor. You can find the average of what a human chid needs to take in but what are the caloric, vitamin, mineral, and protien needs on a daily basis for a savannah monitor? You can not compare the dietary needs of a person to that of a savannah monitor. every species has different needs. Ho many grams of insect matter would a savannah need to take in on a daily basis to support it? How many grams of mice would it need to take in? If we can find this out we then need to compare the 2 food items.

mo9e64

03-11-12, 09:54 AM

I regret expanding the human/monitor analogy-it just muddies the waters.
A question to one with knowledge of varanid biology can a monitor burn off the fat contained in a rodent?if you control the intake to meet energy requirements can rodents be a safe diet?Do we keep going back to the model where we already know rodents are not a safe diet choice-continuing this circular argument.
I personally think jumping to diet without understanding husbandry better is mute.I understand the concept but do not know how to apply.People like CrocDoc have conditions for his monitors so they are in full monitor mode.Just look at the video of them eating.He understands how all the elements work together to the point that he can break the rules that would spell disaster to our monitors.The very fact we are comparing monitors to children shows how little we understand their biology.
We need to feed a monitor what they require at the conditions they are kept,but thrive for the conditions that are more like CrocDocs-thus their dietary needs and requirements will change.This is where I rodents fit the bill most,like Gregg commented

infernalis

03-11-12, 10:31 AM

I don't think anyone (well not me anyways) was referring to children in a biological sense.

It's all about a properly supported animal being able to use the calories given.

Chomper was living proof that even with an invert diet, without proper support, he became overweight.

Yes he got exercise, but it was not 24/7/365 in the state of New York, he had a 90 day window of time where it was safe to go outside and run.

The rest of the year he was either tearing apart my house, or sitting in his improper cage waiting for a nice day to go outside and be a monitor.

BarelyBreathing

03-11-12, 12:59 PM

mo9e64

03-11-12, 01:16 PM

If you believe all that a Sav can eat is what is in the wild you would have a point.I do not think this is so,it's just what they eat in the wild.And if you can feed a monitor enough inverts to meet it's needs i would agree with you,i just think medium to larger monitors unless you control their conditions,energy requirements are more easily met with rodents.It's more of what works in whatever circumstance you have,in the wrong conditions rodents would be a horrible choice.If we keep talking about feeding rodents to monitors in the wrong set of conditions this is where we go nowhere in these discussions.

Out of curiousity what do you feed your Bluetail Monitor?

BarelyBreathing

03-11-12, 01:43 PM

I don't believe that that's all a savannah monitor CAN eat. That fact was never debated. Nor was the fact that they are mainly insevtivores. What's being debated is whether or not keepers SHOULD feed rodents to savannah monitors.

It really isn't difficult to feed enough inverts to meet its needs. Nor is it difficult to obtain, keep, and breed said inverts.

I feed my blue tails a variety of inverts (roaches, fresh water crab, snails, locusts), a rodent here and there (not very often at all, and really, only one of them will take rodents readily), fertilized bantam eggs with the chicks inside, and occasionally chicks.

mo9e64

03-11-12, 02:21 PM

If you are getting good longterm results feeding mostly inverts to larger monitors,and meeting their needs under optimal conditions you are right,i will concede and sit back-as my view is from limited experience and opinion only-i don't want to be anyones thread starter LOL

Gregg M

03-11-12, 07:55 PM

I don't understand, Moe, how you can say rodents fit the bill, when savannah monitors don't eat rodents naturally. They can't handle the fat content. When you feed a rodent to a savannah monitor, sure, you're feeding them good nutrients. You're also feeding them things that they can't digest or use properly.

What exactly is in a rodent that a monitor can not digest or use? Savannahs can and do take rodents in the wild. It may not be a staple diet for them but they do eat them. I am pretty sure in areas that are heavily populated with rodents, savannahs are eating them more frequently. They also take in other vert prey as well.

They do not eat dubia roaches and brown farm raised crickets in the wild neither. This whole "natural" diet in captivity can never be replicated. If savannahs were only taking in insects for prey in the wild, how would they combat issues like calcium to phosphorus ratios. They do not exactly have people dusting their bug for them in Africa. Inverts are notorious for their poor ratio. Reptile need anywhere from 1:1 to 2:1 calcium to phosphorus. Insects contain 1:2 to 1:3 on average.

If you keep your varanids properly, a diet with rodents as a part of it will not be harmful. High basking spots, proper thermo and humidity gradient, deep substrates, and room to move will help a varanid burn off what it needs to. That is a fact.

When you feed them properly gut loaded inverts, you're feeding them all the nutrients they need, minus the stuff they can't digest or use properly.

So again, what is it in rodents that can not be digested or used by the varanid that eats them? A bit of literature would be helpful instead of you just stating an opinion.

Now the only reason I'm using humans as an analogy is because it's easier for some people to understand.

Making things easy for people to understand something by comparing two things that can not be compared does nothing but cause confusion. It is also just passing on unsubstantiated opinion as factual information. In reality it is giving misinformation.

BarelyBreathing

03-11-12, 08:14 PM

-It was stated that in farm lands (farm lands=rodents) that out of two hundred savannah monitors, only one took a rodent. They do take other vertibrate prey with some regularity, but if we analize the amounts of fats in frogs (what they take) and compare it to rodents, there really shouldn't be any question.

-Savannah monitors can't digest the hair, nor can the process the fats.

-Also, as I've stated, you can easily make a nutrition chart of what they naturally eat, and substitute with available inverts without worrying about the high fat content of rodents.

-Earth worms contain a 2:1 calcium to phosphorus level. Dubia roaches are 1:1.

Gregg M

03-11-12, 09:04 PM

-Savannah monitors can't digest the hair, nor can the process the fats.

They can not digest the fur. Big deal. Snakes can not digest fur and furry rodents are their staple. That point is insignificant and has nothing to do with nutrition.

As far as them not being able to process the fats goes, can you provide some type of literature to back this up? And if this was true, the fats would not be a problem as you claim them to be. If the fats could not be processed, they would be passed. I am sorry, but you are completely wrong. The fats are indeed processed. Once processed, the fats will only be a problem in inactive animals that are not given the proper set ups to metabolize their intake.

BarelyBreathing

03-11-12, 09:17 PM

Read up on hepatic lipidosis.

Gregg M

03-12-12, 12:05 AM

Read up on hepatic lipidosis.

LOL. You are pulling the fatty liver card now? LOL. It is funny because people who talk about fatty liver usually do not know anything about it.
Seriously. Fatty liver has nothing at all to do with not being able to process fats and is not even known to be caused by diets. You may want to read up on why reptiles need a fatty liver and the only time it is a "problem" in reptiles.

Just admit that everything you are saying here is your own opinion and none of it can be backed up.

infernalis

03-12-12, 04:19 AM

Douglas Mader DVM, Veterinarian...

I see fatty liver in savannah monitors commonly. These animals are routinely misfed in captivity-typically they are fed high amounts of dog food, live fatty mice or any other high calorie food. On top of this, they are kept in small cages and not allowed to roam and hunt (which is normal for them in the wild). As a result, they become couch potatoes and get fat.

Somewhere down the road, these fat savannahs develop disease (kidney, liver, etc.) and stop eating. Now this fat lizard is a prime candidate to develop a fatty liver. I can't tell you how many calls I get about fatty liver causing death in savannahs.

Fatty liver can be treated if the underlying cause can be identified and corrected. Force-feeding (often with a stomach tube in place for some species), antibiotics as needed, steroids and vitamins are often required.

Allow me to translate this into easier to understand terms.

The fatty liver disease is brought on by the improper care of the animal, NOT the stored fat.

Read the quote carefully.

I can see where people would jump to the conclusion that mice cause the fatty liver disease, probably because they stopped reading at the word mice.

The fatty liver does not come into play until AFTER the improperly supported animal has already became sick of other reasons, like the renal failure associated with exposure and low level dehydration.

I highlighted (made boldface) where it clearly states that proper support of the animal is paramount in maintaining a healthy animal.

Michael Balsai on the Savannah Monitor Diet (http://www.anapsid.org/balsai.html)

*****************************

Gregg M

03-12-12, 06:39 AM

Douglas Mader DVM, Veterinarian...

Allow me to translate this into easier to understand terms.

The fatty liver disease is brought on by the improper care of the animal, NOT the stored fat.

Read the quote carefully.

I can see where people would jump to the conclusion that mice cause the fatty liver disease, probably because they stopped reading at the word mice.

The fatty liver does not come into play until AFTER the improperly supported animal has already became sick of other reasons, like the renal failure associated with exposure and low level dehydration.

I highlighted (made boldface) where it clearly states that proper support of the animal is paramount in maintaining a healthy animal.

Michael Balsai on the Savannah Monitor Diet (http://www.anapsid.org/balsai.html)

*****************************

That is exactly right Wayne.
To go into it a little deeper. Reptles have a fatty because of their life stlye. Basically, whenever a reptile goes off feed for whatever reason, the stored fat is mobilized into the bloodstream and into the liver to be metabolized. This happens when they brumate or aestivate, just not in huge levels because of the slowed metabolism during this period. Once the animal resumes normal feeding, their systems do not rely on stored fats so the fat stops mobilizing into the bloodstream. The only time this is a problem but till never the cause of death or sickness is when the metabolism is running normally and the animal stops feeding. The stored fat is mobilized into the bloodstream in large enough amounts to where the animals metabolism does not keep up with the sudden influx of fats being moved to the liver. This causes the animal to have more fats in the liver. Fatty liver disease is associated with the reptile NOT feeding due to sickness and anorexia and NOT its actual diet. Fatty liver disease is a secondary issues to a primary problem. It is easy for a vet to say an animal has died from a fatty liver (that is usually where the necropsy ends) instead of looking into the reason that caused the animal to go off feed in the first place.

People seem to throw the term "fatty liver disease" around too freely without even understanding what causes it. It is quite fustrating especially when people want to use it in a debate about diet and how rodent prey is bad. It has nothing to do with diet or rodents. A reptile will have a fatty liver even on an all insect diet.

jarich

03-12-12, 07:15 AM

Ok so Im as tired of this debate as the next guy, but lets compile what actual proof we have, because that word gets thrown around a lot.

In the wild, studies (Cisse 1972, Losos and Greene 1988, Bennett multiple) have shown that these animals eat almost exclusively invertebrate prey, occasionally small vertebrates like frogs, and very, very occasionally rodents.

In captivity, after having this debate for months, I have found exactly 5 people who have raised this particular species with individuals older than 10 (4 with a mixed diet, 1 with an all invert diet). I know of no keeper in captivity to have raised them to older than 15. I am aware of 1 keeper who has bred them for more than a single generation. I know of no keeper who has tried to raise them both on a strict invert diet and a diet of inverts and rodents so as to compare the two. Every keeper has raised them either one way or the other. What this proves is two things. First, that we cannot seem to raise these animals successfully on either diet. Second, that there is proof for neither diet.

To scientifically disprove one or the other would require a keeper who had raised animals in similar situations on multiple diets (to show the variables) and then shown that one was lacking. There is evidence that both diets could be problematic, however there is not enough to disprove either. Where this leaves us is that it seems to be a personal choice on which one to feed. Im sure we all know by now where we each stand on this choice so everything else is a little academic at this point.

The most useful thing I have gleaned from this debate is that we have to pay more attention to what we are giving our feeders. Typical farm mice are high in fat. Typical farm insects are low in minerals. Mice become healthier if raised on a natural diet (not dogfood) and insects/inverts become vastly better reared on a nutritious diet. Those things are proved, and therefore proven to be better for Savannah monitors.

mo9e64

03-12-12, 07:34 AM

Is this not true,you set up your monitors in a set of conditions,and you feed them accordingly.If you change your conditions,you change your feeding-more or less depending which way direction you go.You are basing your opinion on your set of conditions-is it possible that changing your conditions could change what they need to fulfill their requirements.
In these circular arguments,the next talking point will be laziness.Because this leads to feeding more rodents which invertly reduces choices.'I work hard to give my animal variety in diet,putting in more rodents into the diet would be out of convenience' when infact it's getting the same results with less effort.It still doesn't prevent people from giving them a variety of foods.

Gregg M

03-12-12, 08:22 AM

I have found exactly 5 people who have raised this particular species with individuals older than 10 (4 with a mixed diet, 1 with an all invert diet).

Well now you have found 6.

I know of no keeper in captivity to have raised them to older than 15.

Well now you know of atleast one. I had a male live to almost 17 years old.

I know of no keeper who has tried to raise them both on a strict invert diet and a diet of inverts and rodents so as to compare the two.

My longest lived savannah was rasied on a primary rodent diet for the majority of its life.

Every keeper has raised them either one way or the other. What this proves is two things. First, that we cannot seem to raise these animals successfully on either diet. Second, that there is proof for neither diet..

I would call raising a monitor past 16 years pretty damn successful. My friend John raised his water to 18 years of age. The funny thing about that is that back then when we started raising these animals, deep substrates were never part of their husbandry requirement. Believe it or not, my sav was kept on corncob bedding foe at least 4 years of its captive life. Its substrate was news paper for a short period of time when I first got him. LOL.

So even with sub par conditions for the first few years of captive life and a mostly rodent diet, I still managed to keep mine alive for almost 17 years.

To scientifically disprove one or the other would require a keeper who had raised animals in similar situations on multiple diets (to show the variables) and then shown that one was lacking.

And that was my point as well. I see lots of scare mongering and opinions being thrown around without any proof or study or literature. Equating mice to fast food burgers is wrong. Saying that rodent diets cause fatty liver disease is wrong. To say that an oportunistic feeder will get all it needs from an all insect diet is wrong.

There is evidence that both diets could be problematic, however there is not enough to disprove either. Where this leaves us is that it seems to be a personal choice on which one to feed. Im sure we all know by now where we each stand on this choice so everything else is a little academic at this point.

Any diet will be problematic if the monitor is not being cared for properly. It is not the diet itself. It is the husbandry. Proper husbandry should not be a personal choice. It should be manditory when taking monitors on as captives. Again, it is not about the diet, it is about properly housing your monitor. There is room for academic in this debate. I am not sure why people shy away from academics or cast it in a negative light.

jarich

03-12-12, 09:14 AM

Ok thats great to know! Really, I am pretty excited about finding another keeper with that kind of experience. (However, the water monitor isnt applicable to a Savannah monitor diet debate as they are a totally different monitor with a very different diet.)

That is, perhaps sadly, the oldest Savannah I have heard of in captivity. Do you know what it died of? Again, Im not suggesting anything about diet, but that is still significantly lower than the expected life expectancy of these animals so Im wondering if you were able to figure out the cause of death.

The last part of what you said is where you get off track again. Again, there is no proof that an all invert diet does not meet their nutritional requirements.

And sorry if there was a misunderstanding, I was not saying that I shy away from academics at all. I consider myself to be one (Im a paleoanthropologist by training!) What I was saying is that us going on to state our respective points again and again is academic. Its a turn of phrase that basically means its a finicky debate.

Gregg M

03-12-12, 09:52 AM

Ok thats great to know! Really, I am pretty excited about finding another keeper with that kind of experience. (However, the water monitor isnt applicable to a Savannah monitor diet debate as they are a totally different monitor with a very different diet.)

I agree, however, the age of that water is greater than any other captive I have heard of.

That is, perhaps sadly, the oldest Savannah I have heard of in captivity. Do you know what it died of? Again, Im not suggesting anything about diet, but that is still significantly lower than the expected life expectancy of these animals so Im wondering if you were able to figure out the cause of death.

If that is the longest lived savannah you know of, how can we possibly estimate expected longevity? Do we really know how long they can live for in the wild or in captivity? We are all just guessing. What proof do we have that savannahs inparticular, can live up to 30 years? Maybe their true life expectancy is only half that.

And no, I never had a necropsy done on the animal. If I did, I know it would be inconclusive or inaccurate at best.

The last part of what you said is where you get off track again. Again, there is no proof that an all invert diet does not meet their nutritional requirements.

I would say that the lack of proof that an all insect diet IN CAPTIVITY meets their needs is enough for me to keep feeding rodents to varanids. Especially from what I have experienced.

jarich

03-12-12, 10:00 AM

I have heard of a number of other monitors living for much greater ages, just not Savannahs. As to how long they can live, you are right, it is totally a guess at this point. However, given that there are many other species that have lived to much greater ages, it seems likely that their life expectancy should also be greater than that. Again, thats just conjecture based on the known older ages of other species.

Also, given that there have been individuals who have raised them on a strict invertebrate diet is proof that they can be. Im not saying you shouldnt do whatever you chose, just that there isnt really proof one way or the other at this point.

StuDude

03-12-12, 10:14 AM

Oh okay, when I put water in his dish, should it be warm water? Or what

LUKEWARM is good

Gregg M

03-12-12, 10:53 AM

Also, given that there have been individuals who have raised them on a strict invertebrate diet is proof that they can be.

Can this be substantiated in any way? Not doubting your word. I have just never heard of anyone raising savannahs on an all insect diet to adulthood. Dwarf species, yes. But never savs.

infernalis

03-12-12, 11:02 AM

Even though at one point I was convinced that chomper needed invertibrates, he did eat mice in the beginning, he ate vennison strips (raw) and turkey giblets.

So I cannot honestly profess he spent his entire life eating inverts.

also as ashamed of it as I am, he had eaten dog food, sometimes because I was a dillweed and gave it to him, and sometimes when free roaming the house he stole it from the dogs.

All I can say at this point, none of the mistakes will be repeated.

jarich

03-12-12, 11:40 AM

Its not my word so much as the word of the people who have kept them. I belong to one forum where there are numerous members from Europe who have kept a few different species on inverts only (not just dwarfs), though none of those was exanthematicus. The one Savannah owner I know of who feeds exclusively inverts is very credible, though admittedly I have never seen it myself. Having said that Ive never seen yours either Gregg ;)

Gregg M

03-12-12, 12:17 PM

Its not my word so much as the word of the people who have kept them. I belong to one forum where there are numerous members from Europe who have kept a few different species on inverts only (not just dwarfs), though none of those was exanthematicus.

I agree that many species will do fine on a captive insect diet. I just can not see how it would be able to support a fully grown savannah. Our dwarfs are fed ALMOST and exclusive insect diet. But the are still offered rodents from time to time. Even the smallest species we have which are the kings monitors get rodents once in a while. The female more so now because she is gravid and about a week away from laying. The same for our 2 gravid gilleni females.

Having said that Ive never seen yours either Gregg ;)

Unfortunately I have no photos of Ren (Named after Ren from Ren and Stimpy). I must have gone through 3 computers since he died and his last 3 years were spent with my sister. However, you have seen photos of the 5 year old male we have and the T+ albino wild caught female. Both are in perfect shape. Not fat at all. They are VERY active.

Their diet does include rodents. Not daily but I would say 2 to 3 days a week they get a rodent. The other days are spent chasing crickets, roaches, and digging up super worms. It is pretty crazy to see a 2 and a half foot savannah chasing and catching little crickets without missing.

I agree that insects should make up the bulk of their diet. However I do not agree with cutting rodents out of their diet and they should be offered more than just for an "occational treat".

BarelyBreathing

03-12-12, 03:23 PM

I just want to say, I am very aware of fatty liver disease and it's causes. The POINT of that statement was that this would NOT occur without the excess fat that a diet rich in rodents offers.

Gregg M

03-12-12, 03:54 PM

I just want to say, I am very aware of fatty liver disease and it's causes. The POINT of that statement was that this would NOT occur without the excess fat that a diet rich in rodents offers.

You are obviously NOT aware of what causes it or what actually happens. Even if the diet consists of only insects, fatty liverdisease will still occure. Most cases of "fatty liver disease" are found in wild caught savannahs and not in captives that are overweight.

So if what you say is true, explain how wild caught savannahs can have "fatty liver disease" if all they are eating in the wild are inverts.

When a reptile stops feeding the stored fats will still rush into the liver regardless of its diet. So your point in your statement has nothing at all to do with the subject we are talking about. It is an entirely different topic.

You thought that fatty liver was caused by diet and you were wrong in your thinking. Again, it is your opinion that rodents are junk with nothing to back up your claim. It is fine that you have your opinion, but please, do not present something as fact unless you have facts to back it up. You type with such certainty yet what you type has no merit in this instance.

Bradyloach

03-12-12, 04:05 PM

infernalis

03-12-12, 04:45 PM

gregg, i dont have a full grown sav, as shes only 9 inches snout to vent. but how would one fill there 4 foot sav up with just inects? i dont feed rodents to my sav, i was just wondering on is it possible to fill up a full grown sav off just insects. that would be like 2000 crickets

Use larger inverts Brady.

Everything in Africa is much larger than it is on our continent.

Crickets, snails, slugs and worms over there are several times larger than north American counterparts.

Gregg M

03-12-12, 08:17 PM

gregg, i dont have a full grown sav, as shes only 9 inches snout to vent. but how would one fill there 4 foot sav up with just inects? i dont feed rodents to my sav, i was just wondering on is it possible to fill up a full grown sav off just insects. that would be like 2000 crickets

the 2 and a half foot male will eat at the very least 300 sometimes up to 500 crickets per day. I would say over 2000 crickets per week easily.

You would need to breed a very large dubia roach colony (10,000+) to support even a single sub adult savannah for any length of time.

millertime89

03-12-12, 11:49 PM

I'm wondering if keeping roaches and crickets in an oxygen rich environment and giving them ample food supply would allow them to reach larger sizes? That's the reason there were giant insects millions of years ago, an oxygen rich environment and sufficient food sources. Doubt it would be cost effective though...

infernalis

03-12-12, 11:51 PM

can't reverse evolution...

millertime89

03-13-12, 12:12 AM

no, but you can encourage accelerated and enhanced growth.

bodiddleyitis

03-13-12, 12:28 AM

Can this be substantiated in any way? Not doubting your word. I have just never heard of anyone raising savannahs on an all insect diet to adulthood. Dwarf species, yes. But never savs.

Barelybreathing says her colleagues have bred savannah monitors to 3 or 4 generations on an exclusively invertebrate diet. It's unprecedented, and so far, totally unsubstantiated.

Gregg M

03-13-12, 07:46 AM

Barelybreathing says her colleagues have bred savannah monitors to 3 or 4 generations on an exclusively invertebrate diet. It's unprecedented, and so far, totally unsubstantiated.

And a total fabrication in my opinion. Someone lied to Barelybreathing. At the very least a 10 year captive bred Savannah monitor breeding program and not one single CBB neonate on the market? No write ups? Kind of strange.

BarelyBreathing

03-13-12, 11:54 AM

You know, I really wish that you would stop calling me a liar. I have absolutely no reason to lie, as there is nothing I get out of this.

Gregg M

03-13-12, 12:42 PM

You know, I really wish that you would stop calling me a liar, Daniel. I have absolutely no reason to lie, as there is nothing I get out of this other than your massive headache.

I dont think anyone is calling you a liar. Daniel nor myself. My opinion is that you have been fed false information and you are just repeating what was told to you. I have no reason to believe you are a liar. In fact, you know I respect you even if I do not agree with you on this particular topic.

BarelyBreathing

03-13-12, 12:51 PM

I dont think anyone is calling you a liar. Daniel nor myself. My opinion is that you have been fed false information and you are just repeating what was told to you. I have no reason to believe you are a liar. In fact, you know I respect you even if I do not agree with you on this particular topic.

Well thanks, I appreciate that. I do have no reason to doubt these people, though, because of who they are and the work they are doing.

Gregg M

03-13-12, 03:14 PM

I do have no reason to doubt these people, though, because of who they are and the work they are doing.

That is all fine, but you got to admit that as Daniel pointed out, that claim is unprecedented and unsubstantiated. The fact that there have been several generations of a varanid that is rarely if ever bred in captivity without anyone knowing about it or offering any information is a bit suspect. No CBB savs to show for, no photos, no write up? What are they waiting for and what is the study about anyway?

Like I said, I am not doubting your word. I am doubting the honesty of those doing this "study".

BarelyBreathing

03-13-12, 03:22 PM

It may be unsubstantiated to Daniel, but I'm there at least twice a month. I've seen the eggs, I've seen the babies. Now, I've only been with them for two years now. There are babies to show for, as a matter of fact.

KORBIN5895

03-13-12, 03:41 PM

, that claim is unprecedented and unsubstantiated.".

I think they said something similar to this when it was proposed the world was round.

Gregg M

03-13-12, 06:15 PM

I think they said something similar to this when it was proposed the world was round.

Not quite.
The world was round when there was proof that it was. Before then it was flat. Was it correct? No, but they were just going on the evidence they had at the time.

Barelybreathing,
I am not saying they were not bred. I just highly doubt it was done for 4 generations on an insect only diet.

BarelyBreathing

03-13-12, 06:36 PM

So if I said that they were bred to a fourth generation on mice, would this be more convincing?

KORBIN5895

03-13-12, 07:05 PM

Not quite.
The world was round when there was proof that it was. Before then it was flat. Was it correct? No, but they were just going on the evidence they had at the time.

Savs have been breeding for generations on a mostly invertebrate diet in the wild before we had proof that it could be done in captivity. Most people are having "success" feeding them rodents in captivity. So your proof is savs aren't "thriving" in captivity on inverts so rodents must be the way to go.

Sorry but I know you believe in a mostly invert diet with rodents being a small portion of that diet. I understand that and am not arguing that at all. What I also see is that you are totally dismissing a claim that savs are truly thriving and reproducing on an all invert diet because there is no "proof". You have made your decision based on the evidence you see. That doesn't make you right. If they can breed successfully in nature on an 99.5% ( Daniel Bennett's study) invert diet why can't they do it in captivity.

An open mind by all involved could really revolutionize sav keeping.

Has anyone ever wondered if savs are just too complicated to be pets?

infernalis

03-13-12, 07:26 PM

Has anyone ever wondered if savs are just too complicated to be pets?

YES!!!

Knowing in my heart that only a very few people will ever care enough to do
WHATEVER IT TAKES to provide a comfortable life for them.

It offends me very much that they are sold for dirt cheap prices to anyone with 20-35 dollars in their pocket with no regard whatsoever to the animal's welfare.

Gungirl

03-13-12, 07:30 PM

YES!!!

Knowing in my heart that only a very few people will ever care enough to do
WHATEVER IT TAKES to provide a comfortable life for them.

It offends me very much that they are sold for dirt cheap prices to anyone with 20-35 dollars in their pocket with no regard whatsoever to the animal's welfare.

I really wish they cost much more. I actually stopped someone from getting one for their 10 yr old son. The kid asked for it and was told by the pet store owner it could live in a 40 gallon fish tank for life! I couldn't let them leave with that knowledge. I informed the dad of some of it's needs and told him to research and really look into it first. The dad flat out said " you can have an anole and nothing more. I told him to check out this forum if he ever wanted any more info. I really think he will never let the kid have one now. I am glad I stopped the sale.

Gregg M

03-13-12, 07:42 PM

So if I said that they were bred to a fourth generation on mice, would this be more convincing?

Nope. Its the 4th generation thing that is suspect to me.

When you say 4th generation, do you mean the first pair bred, made offspring and those offspring were bred to eachother, produced offspring and those were bred to eachother produced, and then the resulting offspring of those animals were bred and produced offspring?

Savs have been breeding for generations on a mostly invertebrate diet in the wild before we had proof that it could be done in captivity. Most people are having "success" feeding them rodents in captivity. So your proof is savs aren't "thriving" in captivity on inverts so rodents must be the way to go.

Yes, they have bred for countless generations in the wild because they do not have people screwing up their husbandry. You are also missing the fact that savs do feed on vert prey in the wild. Sure, one animal in Daniels study group had a rodent in its stomach. Like with many varanids, juvinile/young animals will hunt mostly for insects. Adults will need much more than bugs in their diet to support their needs. You can not tell me that a 3 foot sav will only take inverts. They will eat anything they can overpower. This includes mammals and reptiles. Savs are not breeding in the wild on invert prey alone.

What I also see is that you are totally dismissing a claim that savs are truly thriving and reproducing on an all invert diet because there is no "proof". You have made your decision based on the evidence you see. That doesn't make you right. If they can breed successfully in nature on an 99.5% ( Daniel Bennett's study) invert diet why can't they do it in captivity.

That is correct. The lack of proof is what makes me dismiss the claim. Ofcorse my decision is not final. If the proper proof is presented, I may re-evaluate my view on the subject. Some of you dismiss the fact that at least one animal in the study group was found to have a rodent in its stomach. This is proof that they do indeed eat rodents in the wild. Ever think they may be a part of the season where they take more rodent prey than normally? With many reptiles, diets change with the season. Could it be that Daniel was doing his awesome study during a time of year when the invert prey is much more abundant than the rotents? Did you ever think that the size of the actual animals in the study could have played a part in what was found in the stomachs? There are too many variables at play. Daniels study is great, dont get me wrong. However, it does not answer every question.

In nature and in captivity are apples and oranges my friend. You can not even come close to replicating a savs natural diet in captivity. They are not the same inverts. The inverts are not eating what African inverts are eating. They are not living in the same soils. Our feeder insects are not as large, do not have the same nutritional value, and are not the savannah monitors natural prey.

An open mind by all involved could really revolutionize sav keeping.

Has anyone ever wondered if savs are just too complicated to be pets?

An open mind is a good thing but you can not take every word spoken as legit unless there is some proof to back it up. Breeding 4 generations of savs is unbelievable enough. Adding the claim it was done on an ivert diet makes it less believable.

How many people have actually bred savs in captivity? Very few. How many people have gotten those CBB savs to bred? NONE. Now someone claims to have 4th generation offspring? Come on.

If it turns out to be true, that would be awesome. However, I highly doubt it.

To answer your last question, I do not view monitors as "pets". Anyone can keep a pet. Not anyone can keep a varanid.

KORBIN5895

03-13-12, 08:27 PM

So what are your varanids, Greg? Chattel?

crocdoc

03-13-12, 08:52 PM

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I have to admit I'm also dubious of any claims that have no proof to back them up. That's not to say BarelyBreathing is lying, but that someone, somewhere isn't being completely honest. I'm not for a minute saying that it's impossible to breed savannah monitors, with or without rodents, to more than one generation. It just seems a little convenient that there is a 'study' which would back up one side of the argument, but which can't be revealed because it is 'top secret'.

Looking at it logically:

1. The market for captive bred savannah monitors isn't such that there'd be any motivation for a (presumably professional) organisation to devote 10 years of secret research into breeding and diets.

2. Even if they wanted to keep it 'top secret', for whatever reason, there would be no reason to prevent the posting of photographs of pairs breeding, eggs being hatched etc. as long as there was nothing in the images to indicate where they were taken. That wouldn't be too difficult to achieve.

3. There seems to be a general confusion on the internet as to what a 'generation' is when it comes to captive breeding. One particular gentleman claimed to have bred certain species of reptile to 200 generations. When it was pointed out that this would be impossible with even the species of reptile with the shortest generational time, unless the breeder was 150-200 years old, the computations involved in coming up with 200 'generations' was revealed and it turned out to be clutches, rather than generations. Four generations of savannah monitors is a lot of time and effort for an outcome with little commercial (or even academic) value. Especially as whatever they were setting out to prove would have been proven after two generations.

Quite often, when discussing/arguing things online, I've had people suddenly say that they've read a paper which supports their exact view. I rarely even mention that in my responses because without an appropriate citation (author/date/name of journal) so I can read the article myself, it's just a claim. People need to either come up with the goods or not mention it at all.

This is not an attack on you, BarelyBreathing. I'm just suggesting that after two months working there I imagine there's no real way for you to know whether the eggs/babies you are seeing are first generation or fourth and that someone may be spinning you a line.