View Full Version : Can 2 male corns lock?
I have 3 male corn snakes housed together and 2 are locked. They were both confirmed male by the reptile shop. I just changed their water and less than 5 minutes later they were locked. Is it possible he smelled the female snake I was holding prior on the other male or does this mean he's actually a female? If it means he's actually female, then I have a problem cause the snake is only 230 grams. What do I do? They have been housed together for a year.
millertime89
02-20-12, 01:49 AM
locked how? can you snag a picture?
I would venture one was sexed incorrectly, or they're actually fighting. Which begs the question, why would you house 2 male corns together? That sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.
No, they unlocked and I separated them. Corn snakes can usually be house together no problem. I have 3 small males housed together in another cage, but I have been working on getting them all separated and in their own enclosures. I'm really worried cause if it's female, it's to small (only 230 grams) and could end up egg bound.
SSSSnakes
02-20-12, 01:54 AM
I agree with Kyle. Why would you house any two snakes together unless you are trying to breed them? That is only asking for problems.
I have kept them together for a year, but have been working on getting them separated, so instead of asking me why I housed them together, please answer my question.
Fine. Yes 2 males can lock. Have fun with your answer.
millertime89
02-20-12, 02:01 AM
can they? well yeah, they can, doesn't mean they should.
I thought garters were the only species that males could be housed together? Well without controversy anyways...
theapexgerman
02-20-12, 02:03 AM
Arnt corn snakes canibalistick you could always get them probe. The breeder I go to for all my needs and snakes does it for free
Fine. Yes 2 males can lock. Have fun with your answer.
That was uncalled for.... I have been working on getting them seperated, so what's the deal? I'm not arguing that it's a bad idea to house snakes together or anything.
Arnt corn snakes canibalistick you could always get them probe. The breeder I go to for all my needs and snakes does it for free
It's almost unheard of, it's not like trying to house kings together. They are both supposed to be males. I will be getting the one in question probed very soon.
theapexgerman
02-20-12, 02:08 AM
Kernel I would go get them probe just incase and if they been together for a year wouldn't hurt if they stayed together till you get seprate cages why don't use tubs my durmil loves his
SSSSnakes
02-20-12, 02:11 AM
1- The reason why we are telling you that keeping corn snakes together is a bad idea, is because corn snakes will cannibalize each other. I've seen it happen.
2- If you want to know the sex of you snakes, then you should never trust a pet store to tell you, either go to a vet or learn how to sex them yourself.
3- Without a picture of the so called lock up, no one can tell you if they were locked up or not.
4- When you ask for advice and people try to help you, you should not get snippy with them. You already have had an issue with keeping two snakes together and we are only trying to prevent you from having any more. It does not take a year to separate two snakes. We are just concerned about the safety of the snakes.
..., so instead of asking me why I housed them together, please answer my question.
As was this, just evening the playing field a bit. Try not to take offense from anything I say, I will give the answer, but not always happily. But people were asking you questions, least you could do is inform then how you do it, so they can understand better. I'm sorry if I was too harsh, but sometimes I don't feel like buttering it up... You just wanted the answer anyways, and I gave it to you. Sorry I had to do it while having a bad day I guess, thats not your fault. Caylan.s.
Kernel I would go get them probe just incase and if they been together for a year wouldn't hurt if they stayed together till you get seprate cages why don't use tubs my durmil lioves his
That's what I'm working on. In the mean time I seperated the 2 and one is in a critter keeper until I can get a tub in the next day or so.
As was this, just evening the playing field a bit. Try not to take offense from anything I say, I will give the answer, but not always happily. But people were asking you questions, least you could do is inform then how you do it, so they can understand better. I'm sorry if I was too harsh, but sometimes I don't feel like buttering it up... You just wanted the answer anyways, and I gave it to you. Sorry I had to do it while having a bad day I guess, thats not your fault. Caylan.s.
I said I was working on separating them, so I don't know why there was such a problem. I had been told that corns can be housed together before I joined any of the forums. I have since separated some of them and I'm just working on getting the rest of them separated.
theapexgerman
02-20-12, 02:17 AM
I don't trust pet stores that's why I buy from one person only or some opne he kniows
Regardless... I apologise if I offended you I guess. I'll just stay out of it. Someone else can help you. Caylan.S.
I don't trust pet stores that's why I buy from one person only or some opne he kniows
I don't trust most of them either, but I do this one.
Regardless... I apologise if I offended you I guess. I'll just stay out of it. Someone else can help you. Caylan.S.
I'm sorry too. 2 males can lock though? It's possible they are both males even though they locked?
theapexgerman
02-20-12, 02:21 AM
I guess it could happen but I'm not a breeder person so I got no clue lol
I'm a soon to be breeder, but I have no idea about this. I was just shocked when I saw them locked.
theapexgerman
02-20-12, 02:29 AM
Breeding to much of hassle for me only breeding I would do is durmils and I still got many years before mine mature enough to breed
I sure hope this isn't a female though. #1 If it's a female she's too small and could become egg bound and #2 I'm not ready for eggs yet.
theapexgerman
02-20-12, 02:43 AM
50/50 could be a male or a female if it is a female hope the male shot blanks lol
Ok I decided to probe him again and it went in just as far, but I made a miscount last night. I thought I counted 6 scales, but it was only 4. So, needles to say, he is actually a she *Sigh*. Now I'm in a rush to get ready for eggs and I'm going to have to keep a VERY VERY close eye on her, so I can get her to the vet if she ends up egg bound. She's 3 years old and, but is done growing, so she will never breed again. Got to get to the store within the next few days to get some tubs so I can get everyone separated.
Ok I decided to probe him again and it went in just as far, but I made a miscount last night. I thought I counted 6 scales, but it was only 4. So, needles to say, he is actually a she *Sigh*. Now I'm in a rush to get ready for eggs and I'm going to have to keep a VERY VERY close eye on her, so I can get her to the vet if she ends up egg bound. She's 3 years old and, but is done growing, so she will never breed again. Got to get to the store within the next few days to get some tubs so I can get everyone separated.
You're 17, so coming from a "recently teenager" you don't need to be so offended by people trying to get information out of you. It's ok to have been ill-informed, thats not your fault. But housing two could end like this even if they've been fine for a long time..
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n3/SCI-MCC/cannibal.jpg
alessia55
02-20-12, 01:05 PM
You need to get all your snakes separated into their own single enclosures ASAP. Just go to Target or whatever and get tubs. They're cheap. There's no reason to delay doing this- go tonight. It'll only take you a few minutes to go buy a tub and set it up. Co-housing is not worth the risk of cannibalism OR accidental pregnancy (as you might now be facing). I don't mean to be harsh but you need to see that we're all trying to help you give your snakes the best they deserve...
"She's 3 years old and, but is done growing"
What do you mean?
You're 17, so coming from a "recently teenager" you don't need to be so offended by people trying to get information out of you. It's ok to have been ill-informed, thats not your fault. But housing two could end like this even if they've been fine for a long time..
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n3/SCI-MCC/cannibal.jpg
Yikes, where did "corn snakes aren't cannibalistic" come from?
You need to get all your snakes separated into their own single enclosures ASAP. Just go to Target or whatever and get tubs. They're cheap. There's no reason to delay doing this- go tonight. It'll only take you a few minutes to go buy a tub and set it up. Co-housing is not worth the risk of cannibalism OR accidental pregnancy (as you might now be facing). I don't mean to be harsh but you need to see that we're all trying to help you give your snakes the best they deserve...
I know that NOW. I don't have my drivers license yet, my mom has strep throat and my dad won't be willing to take me, so I can't go tonight, but I should be able to get there by the weekend.
"She's 3 years old and, but is done growing"
What do you mean?
She is a 3 year old female that someone gave me a year ago and they were only feeding her one fuzzie every 2 months, so she is extremely stunted. She has been at the 230 gram mark for several months, so I think she's done growing (I could be wrong though)
theapexgerman
02-20-12, 01:52 PM
Well let's hope your male corn is a steril snake or your going to have fun trying to hatch eggs I got all of mine in cages cept my durmil he's in a tub must say lot cheaper than a cage
Tubs are a great idea! I have (and plan on putting my second snake!) in tubs for now until they're full grown when i'll get them nice big custom cages, but for now, tubs aren't a big deal. they just see it as substrate and some hides and probably wont notice the difference other than size when i move em up to an condo deluxe :)
Good luck, hopefully she isn't preggo..
then again at 17, wasnt life just about hoping nobody was pregnant?
no?
bad joke?
:D
.. at least you dont have to worry about being eaten by your friends!
Yikes, where did "corn snakes aren't cannibalistic" come from?
I know that NOW. I don't have my drivers license yet, my mom has strep throat and my dad won't be willing to take me, so I can't go tonight, but I should be able to get there by the weekend.
She is a 3 year old female that someone gave me a year ago and they were only feeding her one fuzzie every 2 months, so she is extremely stunted. She has been at the 230 gram mark for several months, so I think she's done growing (I could be wrong though)
Snakes never stop growing.
Snakes never stop growing.
I was under that impression as well :crazy2:
shaunyboy
02-20-12, 02:38 PM
can they? well yeah, they can, doesn't mean they should.
I thought garters were the only species that males could be housed together? Well without controversy anyways...
diamond python males can be housed together,but NO other male carpet acts the same way of the diamond
diamond males DON'T combat,even in the wild they will form a que if theres only one female (polite guys the diamonds ;) )
all other carpets will combat though,even to the point of biting each other
i house SAME size females and pairs of carpets together with no problems.i know a lot of morelia keepers who do this
cheers shaun
youngster
02-20-12, 02:42 PM
Even if they did lock. What is the chance that she's actually pregnant? I would think it would be pretty slim.
millertime89
02-20-12, 07:09 PM
Even if they did lock. What is the chance that she's actually pregnant? I would think it would be pretty slim.
that's like saying the chances of being pregnant after unprotected sex just once is pretty slim. Its 50/50
You know how to separate them? Get some cardboard and cut it to fit in their enclosure and act as a divider and put something heavy on either side to keep it in place. Better that they be cramped for a few days than risk harm.
youngster
02-20-12, 07:15 PM
OP how long were they locked?
I just changed their water and less than 5 minutes later they were locked.
They wouldn't have too much time in five minutes would they?
jaleely
02-20-12, 07:56 PM
well i'm glad you were able to figure it out, and get some good advice. Next time, you will know not to get so many animals unless you already have set-ups for them, since most snakes cannot live together. In fact, besides garter snakes and some sand boas, they should never be housed together. Snakes are solitary animals, that do in fact, never stop growing. Their growth slows down as they age.
So, even though you've been lucky for the past year keeping them together, you now know you need to have sperate enclosures for the future.
It only takes once.
IT's also good that you're asking questions, especially if you want to become a breeder. Though the market is pretty full since a lot of people breed corn snakes, i'm sure you will have fun doing it.
You still have a long way to go, to research the snakes, their habits, breeding, and care of the eggs and young.
Seems you are also able to probe them yourself now, too, so that's good.
We appreciate seeing someone asking, learning, and trying to take the best care of their animals that they can, rather than just ignoring issues and not doing research. Good luck!
Well let's hope your male corn is a steril snake or your going to have fun trying to hatch eggs I got all of mine in cages cept my durmil he's in a tub must say lot cheaper than a cage
The fact I might have eggs is pretty cool, I just wasn't prepared and am worried about her small size. I'm actually going to breed my bloodred pair in March.
Tubs are a great idea! I have (and plan on putting my second snake!) in tubs for now until they're full grown when i'll get them nice big custom cages, but for now, tubs aren't a big deal. they just see it as substrate and some hides and probably wont notice the difference other than size when i move em up to an condo deluxe :)
Good luck, hopefully she isn't preggo..
then again at 17, wasnt life just about hoping nobody was pregnant?
no?
bad joke?
:D
.. at least you dont have to worry about being eaten by your friends!
No, no and yes.
Snakes never stop growing.
I should have known that.
that's like saying the chances of being pregnant after unprotected sex just once is pretty slim. Its 50/50
You know how to separate them? Get some cardboard and cut it to fit in their enclosure and act as a divider and put something heavy on either side to keep it in place. Better that they be cramped for a few days than risk harm.
I have some of them seperated. I'm going to get tubs and get them seperated this weekend.
OP how long were they locked?
They wouldn't have too much time in five minutes would they?
Probably about 30 minutes.
well i'm glad you were able to figure it out, and get some good advice. Next time, you will know not to get so many animals unless you already have set-ups for them, since most snakes cannot live together. In fact, besides garter snakes and some sand boas, they should never be housed together. Snakes are solitary animals, that do in fact, never stop growing. Their growth slows down as they age.
So, even though you've been lucky for the past year keeping them together, you now know you need to have sperate enclosures for the future.
It only takes once.
IT's also good that you're asking questions, especially if you want to become a breeder. Though the market is pretty full since a lot of people breed corn snakes, i'm sure you will have fun doing it.
You still have a long way to go, to research the snakes, their habits, breeding, and care of the eggs and young.
Seems you are also able to probe them yourself now, too, so that's good.
We appreciate seeing someone asking, learning, and trying to take the best care of their animals that they can, rather than just ignoring issues and not doing research. Good luck!
Yes, I realize I shouldn't have kept them together NOW. I will do my best to house them separately from now on.
I have to ask questions, aside from experience, it's the only way to learn. The market has allot of corns in it, but money isn't the only reason for doing it. Yes, I want to make money, but the MAIN reason is I think it will be an amazing experience to breed and raise them, plus the morph combinations are endless.
Yes, I do and I think I'm getting pretty good at it too which is very important since I want to breed.
Anyway, thanks.
Shmoges
02-20-12, 09:48 PM
Anything can be housed with anything. What will come of it is the problem. Also people will tell you anything, it may work for some but I would hope most people would recommend against it. I personally don't like it because I feed in enclosures and I like to know when my animals poop/pee which is pretty hard to tell when co-habing unless you see a butt spray in progress. Also just the possibility of stress from my animals being co-habed is reason enough not too.
I had two of my corns lock up and I even paid the pet store to pop them when they were little and they told me they were both males. I put them together to clean a tank and within 30 seconds they were at it. That was my first corn clutch experience! I now know how to pop babies with the help of my wife's little fingers and am still procrastinating with buying a probe set.
beardeds4life
02-20-12, 10:51 PM
Tubs are a great idea! I have (and plan on putting my second snake!) in tubs for now until they're full grown when i'll get them nice big custom cages, but for now, tubs aren't a big deal. they just see it as substrate and some hides and probably wont notice the difference other than size when i move em up to an condo deluxe :)
Good luck, hopefully she isn't preggo..
then again at 17, wasnt life just about hoping nobody was pregnant?
no?
bad joke?
:D
.. at least you dont have to worry about being eaten by your friends!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA that just made my day
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA that just made my day
Hehe
---
as for popping/probing thing, i'd rather "pop" than probe, i know probing is safe but getting stuff shoved up there cant exactly be fun for the snake.
Anything can be housed with anything. What will come of it is the problem. Also people will tell you anything, it may work for some but I would hope most people would recommend against it. I personally don't like it because I feed in enclosures and I like to know when my animals poop/pee which is pretty hard to tell when co-habing unless you see a butt spray in progress. Also just the possibility of stress from my animals being co-habed is reason enough not too.
I had two of my corns lock up and I even paid the pet store to pop them when they were little and they told me they were both males. I put them together to clean a tank and within 30 seconds they were at it. That was my first corn clutch experience! I now know how to pop babies with the help of my wife's little fingers and am still procrastinating with buying a probe set.
You should buy one. You can't pop adult snakes, they have to be probed.
Hehe
---
as for popping/probing thing, i'd rather "pop" than probe, i know probing is safe but getting stuff shoved up there cant exactly be fun for the snake.
I know how to pop, but I find probing easier. As I said before, popping only works on baby and juvenile snakes. You have to probe to sex adult snakes.
them being locked that one time means nothing, I can guarantee they've locked mutliple times before that, just the first time you've seen it... Regardless most corn snakes are required to be brumated before breeding, I doubt she even has any egg follicles... Keep them separate now, give a bunch of mice to each of them, and hope she doesn't retain the sperm long enough for when she does start making folicles... I would think at that size she would just reabsorb anyways because I doubt she's even the girth of an egg yet... Everyone does make mistkaes and liek I said I wasn;t doing well yesterday, but here's a little info to put your mind at ease... Sperm isn't the only thing that makes babies....
jaleely
02-21-12, 02:01 AM
I've tried to pop a couple of my snakes in the past, and it was always not done well enough, i suppose. No hemipeni, and barely the cloaca sticking out. I just got a cheap set of propes from lll reptile at the rep show this Jan, and checked almost everyone out. I had thought my corn was a girl! The carpet python i thought was a boy....then finally began suspecting girl. I still feel the probe on her may have been inconclusive, because her tail is SOOO long. It's nothing compared to the balls, boas, or hognose.
Anyway my ramble was, that learning to do it, is helpful. It's also not as dangerous if you get some ky jelly, and have another set of hands there to hold the subject steady!
I find popping rather easy.... Been my method of sexing ever since. I'm if the snaeks disliked it they would bite me, they have no problem doing it for other reasons so i assume its not even bothering them really. I just learned how from one of Ralphy's videos myself. I would like to buy a probe set at the next show I go to though, just to learn.
jaleely
02-21-12, 05:25 AM
seems like evertime i try i can't get any hemipeni. I just assumed that even though i have young snakes, they were too old to make it work properly, so i just got the probes. The smaller the better too. I used our second smallest probe on our 4.5ft 10yr+ ball python and it got the job done with less intrusion. I've heard large probes are only for the huge snakes. The only one i never could confirm, with poping was my small hognose. And he's vent is SO small i'm afraid to try to probe!
I started popping on my adult male ball python. Just kinda clicked I guess, I dunno. Helps if your hands are really dry, like after using bar soap. You can apply pressure and slide easier. I've always been too scared to probe lol! I mean is it obvious when the probe can't go any further? How easy is it exactly to pierce through? I dunno, seems tricky to me, I don't have a stead hand(helps for feeding lol, terrible for pictures..)
jaleely
02-21-12, 10:24 PM
I have tried popping my larger young snakes, and my smaller young snakes, and i FEEL like i'm doing it right....but there is just nothing that comes out. Just poo...lol OR sometimes i'll get the "butthole" to come out...but after probing i KNEW that one was a male, and i still couldn't get those hemis out. Clearly, i juts can't pop!
With probing, i just go really slow, twisting and making sure there is ky jelly all along the probe. When it stops, it just stops. Most probes now days will have little balls on the end, so when it stops, you have a smaller risk of poking the animal too hard and hurting it. Four our ball pythons, it was a dramatic difference. Our only girl....the probe stopped right after inserting it practically. The males it went way far inside..to almost the end of the probe.
I tried popping my corn snake quite a few times when he was given to me. I was convinced because nothing came out, it was a girl. He is a TOTAL boy after probing!
To ramble on some more, i am still unsure about my carpet python. "her" tail is SO LONG after the vent. The probe doesn't go in very far, but like, compared to the ball python it's super far. And it did go like half the probe...but didn't seem like it went far enough compared to tail length or number of scales to be a boy.
The boas were all what i was told they were. The hognoses are dimorphic so i already knew they were boys...i checked one just to see how far down the probe goes for them...and it went far for him, just like it did for all the other males.
Shmoges
02-21-12, 10:46 PM
You should buy one. You can't pop adult snakes, they have to be probed.
This I know :D However I have seen videos of people doing just that, not that I would on an adult.
millertime89
02-21-12, 10:52 PM
where did you order your probes from Jaleely?
Can you go into more details about how to differentiate between males and females when probed? You mentioned that when you probed your female carpet the probe went in deeper than anticipated, can you talk about that more?
millertime89
02-21-12, 10:56 PM
You can't pop adult snakes, they have to be probed.
Can too, I've seen it done numerous times. Here's an example on 10ish foot retic.
2yik3wRC0DE
where did you order your probes from Jaleely?
Can you go into more details about how to differentiate between males and females when probed? You mentioned that when you probed your female carpet the probe went in deeper than anticipated, can you talk about that more?
Here a example. On a corn you insert the probe and then mark on the probe how deep it went with your finger and then blace that beside the snake and count the amount of scales. A female probes 2-4 and a male probes 6-8 or 8-10 (one of the 2)
Can too, I've seen it done numerous times. Here's an example on 10ish foot retic.
2yik3wRC0DE
Ok, let me put it this way. It's very hard to on adult cause they have allot of muscle control.
millertime89
02-22-12, 01:00 AM
Here a example. On a corn you insert the probe and then mark on the probe how deep it went with your finger and then blace that beside the snake and count the amount of scales. A female probes 2-4 and a male probes 6-8 or 8-10 (one of the 2)
Thanks.
Ok, let me put it this way. It's very hard to on adult cause they have allot of muscle control.
Travis said it takes some work to get good at popping the bigger ones, but once you get it down its just like doing it on a smaller one. Also depends on your definition of adult, and year old female retic can hit 9 feet...
KORBIN5895
02-22-12, 07:54 AM
I heard that popping and adult snake can cause problems because of their muscle control.
@Kyle
Sorry but your last statement seems irrelevant to the video you post. Can a male retics hit ten feet in a year?
millertime89
02-22-12, 07:37 PM
6 or more IIRC, he never specified what constitutes an "adult". On the opposite end of the spectrum some smaller snakes will never hit the length that a retic reaches in the first 6 months of life. "Adult" is a bad measure of how easy/difficult a snake will be to pop.
6 or more IIRC, he never specified what constitutes an "adult". On the opposite end of the spectrum some smaller snakes will never hit the length that a retic reaches in the first 6 months of life. "Adult" is a bad measure of how easy/difficult a snake will be to pop.
In a way yes and in a way no. Adults have such strong muscle control that it's very difficult and the risk of injury is higher, babies and juveniles don't have sufficient control yet. However, I suppose it's different on burm, retics and the other large pythons and boids?
millertime89
02-22-12, 11:21 PM
However, I suppose it's different on burm, retics and the other large pythons and boids?
That's exactly what I was getting at, broad, blanket statements generally do nobody any good.
I don't know if reptiles undergo a pubescent stage, but id assume that because they must age to reach sexual maturity, they (even if its slow and ongoing) can in essence be "prepubescent" in what applies to my argument here:
Prepubescent muscle has higher muscle endurance while "adult" muscle has higher maximum force per mm/cross section.
What happens when you "stretch" a muscle (which is happening when attempting to "pop" a snake) is that there is a receptor on the muscle which senses that it is being stretched and will cause the muscle to contract if it is being stretched farther than it "should be" (depends on many factors)
In an adult (basing this off my understanding of human muscle and pre/post pubescent models) the stretch reflex will be much stronger and therefore harder to "pop"
So an 8 foot snake that isnt "an adult" yet could actually be "weaker" in that small muscle that holds their gonads inside them in comparison to a smaller snake that has reached full maturity.
this is following the same principle as to why a 130 lb adult can produce much more force per muscle size than a 130 lb untrained 12 year old, though they have the same "size" muscles
hope that wasnt too confusing I tried to relate it to snakes ;)
(also, upon a little research, testosterone has opposite "growth" effects as it does in mammals for reptiles, which is why many males are smaller than females)
millertime89
02-22-12, 11:49 PM
That actually makes sense, I never thought of it that way. However whether it applies to snakes or not I'm not sure. What I am sure of is a 6 foot retic sure feels a lot different than a 6 foot carpet or boa. But that could also be attributed to their natural variations in attitudes.
That actually makes sense, I never thought of it that way. However whether it applies to snakes or not I'm not sure. What I am sure of is a 6 foot retic sure feels a lot different than a 6 foot carpet or boa. But that could also be attributed to their natural variations in attitudes.
Relaxed muscle, at least a lot of it, feels a *lot* like fat does except a little more textured, so unless the snake is flexing at you, it'll be hard to tell musculature from a snake.
Muscle all works the same whether reptile human etc, the only issue with my argument is the types of fibers that they exhibit, so ill look into that and get back to you :P
EDIT: Metabolic fiber types of snake transversus abdominis muscle (http://ajpcell.physiology.org/content/256/6/C1176.abstract)
(i have full text access cause of my college)
but basically yes, they have the same fibre type actions (use similar energy pathways) as mammals and therefore yes, this would be something that applies (my above argument)
also reptiles apparently undergo puberty but not in a "burst" like we do, they just undergo slow steady hormonal increases until they reach sexual maturity then it slows (which is why they grow slowly over time instead of huge growth spurts like mammals have) so the "puberty" argument applies as well, but in a gradual "in between" way if you will.
The interesting thing is that during breeding cycles, they basically "hit puberty" hormone levels wise according to..
this: http://digitalcommons.calpoly.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1309&context=bio_fac
so, it works a little different but from a musculature standpoint that wont have too much of an effect on it.
I can get far more into depth on how a large 6 month snake would be much weaker than a same sized 5 year old snake for example if anyone wants, lol.. >.>
millertime89
02-22-12, 11:59 PM
huh... learn something new everyday.
I don't know if reptiles undergo a pubescent stage, but id assume that because they must age to reach sexual maturity, they (even if its slow and ongoing) can in essence be "prepubescent" in what applies to my argument here:
Prepubescent muscle has higher muscle endurance while "adult" muscle has higher maximum force per mm/cross section.
What happens when you "stretch" a muscle (which is happening when attempting to "pop" a snake) is that there is a receptor on the muscle which senses that it is being stretched and will cause the muscle to contract if it is being stretched farther than it "should be" (depends on many factors)
In an adult (basing this off my understanding of human muscle and pre/post pubescent models) the stretch reflex will be much stronger and therefore harder to "pop"
So an 8 foot snake that isnt "an adult" yet could actually be "weaker" in that small muscle that holds their gonads inside them in comparison to a smaller snake that has reached full maturity.
this is following the same principle as to why a 130 lb adult can produce much more force per muscle size than a 130 lb untrained 12 year old, though they have the same "size" muscles
hope that wasnt too confusing I tried to relate it to snakes ;)
(also, upon a little research, testosterone has opposite "growth" effects as it does in mammals for reptiles, which is why many males are smaller than females)
This is kind what I was getting at, but I didn't know for sure so I just dropped it.
huh... learn something new everyday.
Who knew my exercise physiology degree would help me learn about snakes :wacky:
(keep in mind this is all speculation based on known mammalian responses to growth hormone increases due to puberty and me relating them to a semi-similar organism, im sure some of it is a bit wonky (like how snake puberty works) but the concept remains relatively solid and will apply nonetheless when you consider it applied to "popping")
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another consideration is how a snakes muscles are conditioned. Muscles adapt to become good at what you make them do. train for a marathon? your muscles become more efficient at producing just enough force needed with as little energy as possible (among much more things)
Do olympic lifts? your muscles will adapt to producing high power values (force x acceleration) in a short period of time in order to move a lot of weight quickly.
snakes spend most of their muscle-training..ness... isokinetically, aka "holding itself in place"
when you see your snake peek his head up and hold it there looking at you, hes holding up a lot of his own body weight in place. This is why you dont try very hard to stand, but you would have to try very hard to hold on (support your weight isokinetically (fighting movement) with your arms instead of legs) from a bar. Snakes do it with ease because that's how their muscles are trained based on their movement patterns (and why its easy for you to stand for an hour but hard for you to do 10 reps of 300 lb squats in a minute, though you probably exert the same amount of total force over time for both those things)
therefore (dont worry this ties in to popping!) an older snake will have adapted to "fighting movement" and therefore resist you popping them better than a snake that has only spent a few months doing the same things.
ok ill stop now so i dont bore anyone, this forum needs a science filter ;)
millertime89
02-23-12, 12:21 AM
no, no it does not, that's very interesting, thanks for sharing.
no, no it does not, that's very interesting, thanks for sharing.
no problemo! if you have any questions just ask! Its funny, most people see "gym rats" and think "dumb beefy guy" but 90% of the guys you see in the gym who work out all the time have researched and know a lot of this stuff purely so they can understand it better, ive had some pretty nerdy conversations while doing power cleans LOL :D
I think the reason it's not recommended to Pop adults is because it requires more force, and if you are doing it wrong, that force is being applied in a way that will damage the snake. Done properly, the force is of no discomfort to the snake, it just requires more strength. Popping an adult ball python at three feet is harder then a young carpet python at 5 feet, so I think its girth relative, rather then length or age... A young burm at 6 feet would be much more difficult then a young retic at 6 feet I would imagine. Just some more thoughts on this...
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