Euthanasia

[Strutter769]

What a morbid topic!

Ok, I'm completing my gas chamber today, and NOT looking forward to using it. Before I do, I have a question. How long after removing them from the chamber can I freeze/feed them? Well, not them, but the snakes.

Thanks!

[Gungirl]

Once I remove mine from the gas chamber they go right into proper bags and then the deep freeze. So all in all 10 minutes if that.As far as how long you have to wait before using them as food... you don't. If you freeze all of them on Thursday then decide to feed a snake on Friday go ahead. Thaw it out and heat it up. Just like if you bought hamburg at the store monday morning ,threw it in the freezer when you got home then decided to use it for dinner. No harm done.

[exwizard]

Right after we gas them, we dry them because they usually get a little wet from the process but as soon as they are dry they get bagged and go into the freezer. Thats how we do it.

[Jenn_06]

dont gas them too fast if you do its really painful for the rats, after i gas mines i put them on the scale then add the date and weight on the back and put them in the freezer.

[Strutter769]

Hey, thanks for the replies. I wasn't sure if the CO2 needed to dissipate or anything. So, should the mice be rinsed prior to freezing/feeding? Can the go directly from chamber to snake?

Jenn, why do you tale the extra step of weighing after bagging?

[Jenn_06]

i like to know what size im feeding like a rat thats 78g is a small rat

you dont need to rinse off the rats just put in bag then freezer or feed to snakes

[KORBIN5895]

Me I break their necks. Cheaper. Or I just toss them in a Tupperware container and seal it. For rabbits I break their necks or I have a five gallon bucket with a sealed lid.

[Gungirl]

Kevin.. your not nice :hmm:

[exwizard]

Jenn, why do you tale the extra step of weighing after bagging?

We weigh them as well for the same reason. We do have standard sizing and that is by weight.

[Strutter769]

Kevin.. your not nice :hmm:

Fo'shizzle! I'm dreading watching them just fall asleep! Lol Ok, so I need to thicken my skin a bit. All in due time! Lol

Thanks again Jenn.

[Strutter769]

We weigh them as well for the same reason. We do have standard sizing and that is by weight.

Is weighing also important for rat pups? That's the stage where my girls are now. And if I'm just feeding my breeders, is it important to know when they switch from a smaller rat to a medium?

I understand how it can be important for snakes that are for sale.

[Strutter769]

Ok, Marcy needs to know what to expect...... Will they be scratching and clawing the wall (assuming I add the gas at the proper, slow rate), or just fall asleep? My chamber is 16" x 7" x 6". How long should the process take? 1 minute, 5 minutes?

Just trying to prepare us,the best I can. It was just awful putting the last batch in the freezer to die a slow, painful and icy death!!

[KORBIN5895]

Kevin.. your not nice :hmm:

Honestly I almost posted that myself.

Fo'shizzle! I'm dreading watching them just fall asleep! Lol Ok, so I need to thicken my skin a bit. All in due time! Lol

Thanks again Jenn.

Ok, Marcy needs to know what to expect...... Will they be scratching and clawing the wall (assuming I add the gas at the proper, slow rate), or just fall asleep? My chamber is 16" x 7" x 6". How long should the process take? 1 minute, 5 minutes?

Just trying to prepare us,the best I can. It was just awful putting the last batch in the freezer to die a slow, painful and icy death!!

Five mice in a Tupperware container used for a sandwich took about 3 minutes. Also in the Tupperware they just fall asleep. It is just like using co². They create the co² themselves. I have also put them in a freezer with wood shavings. IMO hypothermia would be pretty painless for them. But refer to Kat's post about me.

[RandyRhoads]

I don't think hypothermia is very painless with the muscle failure/spasms and lethal dysrythmias . How are you constructing this? If you're that worried about the pain of the nasty mice you could always shoot in some nitrous oxide from a whipped cream dispenser before/during the CO2.

[KORBIN5895]

Well mice take less than 7 minutes to die in the freezer. Could've been the lack of oxygen too though. I have seen several things that have died in the winter.never seen any signs of thrashing about in the snow though.

[DragonsEye]

As far as methods go, snapping their necks -- which Kevin mentioned doing -- if done correctly is pretty much instantaneous.

[Skumbo]

Well mice take less than 7 minutes to die in the freezer. Could've been the lack of oxygen too though. I have seen several things that have died in the winter.never seen any signs of thrashing about in the snow though.

People don't thrash much either but hypothermia is one not a painless way to die, I know someone who fell into a lake playing hockey and was rescued and said it was the most horribly painful experience ever, and he was shot twice while in the military (I know he has horrible luck)

basically it burns and is the equivalent of being on fire for a small amount of time, then you deal with the sensation of not being able to move and know you're freezing to death but you can't move anything (ever fall asleep on your arm so bad that it flops around for a few minutes when you wake up, it's like that but everything) at least that's how he explained it, he was in the hospital for days and was lucky to survive.


As for CO, there's a reason a lot of people die of this by accident. Know why you have a CO detector? because you could be watching TV, get sleepy, pass out on the couch, and die because really you were being slowly poisoned by CO. (it has happened)

Co2 is different, this is what makes you feel like you're drowning without the water in a sense of "you need to breath but cant" Co2 is what you expire when breathing, so putting a rat in a Tupperware container will probably cause a good deal of discomfort before it dies.

here's a little slideshow explaining a study done on distress of lab rats during CO2 exposure/euthanasia which shows CO2 is painful/distressful to rats.

Pain and distress during CO2 euthanasia (http://www.slideshare.net/guest48f481/pain-and-distress-during-co2-euthanasia-357399)

(its very "high school level" but it shows facts to a study i cant seem to find full text on, so it works at least) I'd stick to CO, its killed humans without them knowing/etc.. and rats tend to react the same way.



CO and breaking neck (that's pretty much instantaneous) would be the most "humane", CO being more ideal as neck breaking has a bit of a chance of not working perfectly the firs time, which would just.. suck a lot.

[RandyRhoads]

Where do you find and collect CO with other by products of combustion......and how would you administer it...

[KORBIN5895]

@skumbo.
I believe there would be a huge difference between being dropped into a frozen lake and slowly losing body heat through freezing temperature. Stick your hand into a frozen lake then spend 10 minuets out side without a coat it freezing weather.

Secondly what most people use to kill rodents is co2 or dry ice ( Dry ice, sometimes referred to as "Cardice" or as "card ice" (chiefly British English), is the solid form of carbon dioxide.) not carbon monoxide.

[insignia100]

KORBIN5895, I would encourage you to alter your euthanasia methods to be more humane. Cervical dislocation is acceptable, but putting animals in a tupperware or sealed bucket is in no way humane. If you don't believe me, try breathing into a paper bag for 3 minutes and tell me you don't feel uncomfortable/distressed. Yes, they produce their own CO2, but it is much, MUCH more prolonged than having the oxygen purged from the CO2 chamber using compressed CO2 or even dry ice. Until the mice lose consciousness they are suffering. We are using these animals as food, and the LEAST we can do for them is insure a painless and stress free euthanasia.

[Skumbo]

@skumbo.
I believe there would be a huge difference between being dropped into a frozen lake and slowly losing body heat through freezing temperature. Stick your hand into a frozen lake then spend 10 minutes out side without a coat it freezing weather.

Secondly what most people use to kill rodents is co2 or dry ice ( Dry ice, sometimes referred to as "Cardice" or as "card ice" (chiefly British English), is the solid form of carbon dioxide.) not carbon monoxide.

I've had hypothermia before, i've also jumped into freezing water (not an ice covered lake, but it was about 40 degrees) doing a flip off a bridge (im a bit wonky in the head) and I do winter hiking (usually bon cliff trail, its about 38 miles and takes 3 days in the winter over 11 peaks), I've spent nights where it drops from 40 during the peak of the day to -10 at night, and I can tell you, if it slowly kept getting colder until I died, i'd rather suffocate. Cold burns and cold hurts. a lot. I've also been outside many times in negative weather without a shirt on, and it always burns more than anything.
I've done a lot of weird crap in my life. There was an old (stupid) contest we used to do as kids when snow came, whoever could make naked snow angels (well... underwear on) the longest wins, as you can imagine, people got hypothermia and frostbite a few times before the adults figured out what we were doing.
My training partners did a similar thing as well (when i trained in MMA) when it reached 0F out, we'd all go for shirtless/barefoot run to initiate winter so to speak.

I wasn't claiming to know what people use for killing rodents, just my understanding of the chemistry and physiological affects of both Co and Co2 on organisms! None of us can "know" what its like to die from anything, since we're all here, arent we?

personally I wont ever breed my own "feeders" i get far too attached to animals (hell, i have a pet rat). Now, buying an already humanely euthanized feeder mouse/rat from my local pet store (good prices too) is easier for me anyway.

I tend to get wordy, so sorry bout that :sorry:

[Strutter769]

I don't think I specified... I AM using CO2. In fact, I spent a good few hours today finding the fittings I need to regulate the flow from the CO2 tank to the chamber. NOT as easy as I thought it would be! (Or cheap). I'll post some pics tomorrow when it's complete.

[RandyRhoads]

Or you could use a mouse trap.... or do all of us find that cruel and restrain from setting mice traps...

[Skumbo]

I like the idea of a quick burst of NO to put them to sleep, i know when ive gone under the knife i counted down from 10 like "10.. 9... ZZZ" if there are any concerns with them suffering from CO or CO2 or liquid taco flavor aerosol cans, they wont notice if they're knocked out with NO, though that would be more expensive I'm sure.

Or you could use a mouse trap.... or do all of us find that cruel and restrain from setting mice traps...

Yes, I do. I set live traps.


edit: I convinced my family to set live traps at my parents place in Massachusetts, we don't have any mice issues here, its too damn cold.

[beardeds4life]

what is NO? CO?

[insignia100]

NO - nitrous oxide (i.e. the nitrous used for cars) Edit: Nitrous oxide is N2O, not NO.
CO - carbon monoxide

[RandyRhoads]

N2O is not expensive if you buy it online or a from a culinary store. And i've never seen it on animals, so I don't know, but N2O really doesn't put you to sleep, I'd say that was another drug they gave you... Being a general anesthetic it will take away they're physical feelings all together.


And what do you do with them when they're caught in your traps?

[insignia100]

N2O is not expensive if you buy it online or a from a culinary store. And i've never seen it on animals, so I don't know, but N2O really doesn't put you to sleep, I'd say that was another drug they gave you... Being a general anesthetic it will take away they're physical feelings all together.


And what do you do with them when they're caught in your traps?

N2O is an anesthetic gas. It will induce anesthesia (i.e. put you to sleep).

[RandyRhoads]

Really? Nitric oxide is an anesthetic? Actually no, NO is an antianginal... N2O is an anesthetic...

[insignia100]

Corrected my mistake (always got those suffixes wrong in chemistry). NO is a very biologically important vasodilator, however.

[RandyRhoads]

You guys must have very weak tolerances or mines really high. There's no way a weak anesthetic like N2O puts me to sleep, especially at the concentration a dentist gives it in. Fentanyl citrate and Midazolam, oh yea.

[insignia100]

Dentists use N2O as an anxiolytic, not for inducing unconsciousness. The concentration used by dentists is much lower than that.

[RandyRhoads]

I know, but in reference to it inducing unconsciousness in myself, it doesn't work. Even at much higher doses than used in dentistry.

[insignia100]

Perhaps you do have a higher tolerance. You do need a very high concentration compared to modern inhalant anesthetics (70%).

[Caylan]

I got so far into reading this thread I couldn't remember the orignal post lol. CO2 is great for rodents. A good setup we used was a rubber maid bin with a hole in the side and hose with a fitting stuck in. On the bottom of the rubber maid bin was a piece of light diffuser/ Egg crate. This keeps the rats/mice, off thier urine when they sleep so to speak. No wet rodents to freeze and cleaner ziplocs are awesome. Then I arrange the rodents on a cookie sheet with their tails curl in towards their bellies. I can't stand rodents sticking together and having to literally break limbs off because they froze with their hands interlocked... so the cookie sheet though optional, highly reccomended. Just palce the sheet in the freezer, wait a night, pour them into a bag. Awesome.
As for the actual process, I was a little worried at first, but they really just get drunk and fall over or to sleep... I hate to say it but it's almost comical.... You will feel better doiong this after a while when the alternative is bonking them.... I really don't like that... but very effective done properly as well. I've had pet rodents growing up all my childhood, and my one hamster literally got me through some really hard times, so I hate killing rodents, but it must be done. I hope this helps the original post, continue on with the chemistry though, maybe in a new thread however, Its really gotten interesting as well lol. Thanks, Caylan.S.

[RandyRhoads]

Don't feel bad. I still find certain things comical when mice get envenomated by my rattlesnakes. Sometimes they do very odd things I didn't think was possible.

WHen you talk about this rubbermaid were you just using dry ice? I'm still interested on the OPs design using a cO2 with a regulator. I kinda want to rig something up with NO2 and see how it effects feeders. Maybe it would make live feeding not dangerous for the snake or painful for the feeder, depending on them getting it before the half life of the NO2.

[KORBIN5895]

Hmmm. Maybe I should clarify a little bit. When placing rodents into a plastic container I pack them in. Like I said five mice into a 5"x5" container. Those mice tend to pass out in less than a minute. As far as the rabbit in a bucket goes my bucket is a 5 gallon with a rubber pour spout. I hook an old vacuum up to the pour spout to remove the air. Also did I mention that I normally just break their necks?

@skumbo
Yep. You're wonkey in the head ;)! I don't do cold. Period. I have swam the wolf river in Wisconsin at the end of March. The problem is the kid I was swimming with for carried about 100yards down river because he was too cold and couldn't swim anymore. Thankfully he got caught up in brush and I was able to pull him out. I also spent two weeks "camping" in the winter. All I had for supplies was a sleeping bag, fire starting items, cooking utensils and weaponry. I was cold alot those two weeks and will never do it again.

[Strutter769]

Don't feel bad. I still find certain things comical when mice get envenomated by my rattlesnakes. Sometimes they do very odd things I didn't think was possible.

WHen you talk about this rubbermaid were you just using dry ice? I'm still interested on the OPs design using a cO2 with a regulator. I kinda want to rig something up with NO2 and see how it effects feeders. Maybe it would make live feeding not dangerous for the snake or painful for the feeder, depending on them getting it before the half life of the NO2.

I'll have to look back to give credit where it's due, but someone in this room (well, ya know) gave this link, and the drawing was the inspiration for my chamber. I promise pics of my version tomorrow... I mean later today.

DIY – Euthanasia :: Metal Monkey Exotics (http://www.metalmonkeyexotics.com/blog/?page_id=1212)

[Strutter769]

Caylan - I understand the reason for the egg crate would be, although I don't know what a diffuser is. Are you saying to use like a cardboard egg crate to absorb the mess, or something with small channels in it for the urine to drain away from the pups?

[KORBIN5895]

Diffuser is that 1"x1" plastic or aluminum material they put on over head fluorescent light fixtures.

[Caylan]

I was using a CO2 tank with a regulator myself. Full blast until they wobble, then slow trickle until they sleep, then theres more then enough CO2 in the bin to finish the job within a minute usually. The Tank was already set up when we got it, not sure what you need help with on the regulator part, as far as installation I'd be useless help unfortunately...
Rattlesnakes use mainly neurotoxic venom correct? I can only imagine what the prey must do while under the influence. Thats really cool that you get to see that behaviour actually, all I get to see are constrictions. I would probably enjoy watching it myself. Never seen any prey after its been bitten by a venomous snake, even on TV, let alone in my own house. Perhaps I should youtube it... Caylan.S.

[Caylan]

We use fluorescent light diffuser as egg crate at work. It raises the rats about a centimeter of the the bottom of the bin and urine generally drains down and doesn't soak the rats. I should have explained that better sorry. Caylan.S.

PS thanks KORBIN, didn't realize you got that one already...

[RandyRhoads]

Primarily hemotoxic. They still act very drunk and sometimes do backflips and other things like "miming".

[exwizard]

Is weighing also important for rat pups? That's the stage where my girls are now. And if I'm just feeding my breeders, is it important to know when they switch from a smaller rat to a medium?

I understand how it can be important for snakes that are for sale.


It is because our customers know what we mean when we say pups. It means 20-29g. This is important for 2 reasons. 1- Some snakes are small enough to where a weaner (30-44g) is too big. 2- Our pricing depends on size; the heavier the weight, the larger the size, the higher the price. Our sizing is based on weight primarily and we use the rodentpro standard so that way there is no question what a rat pup is or any other size for that matter. :)

[Strutter769]

I'll have to look back to give credit where it's due, but someone in this room (well, ya know) gave this link, and the drawing was the inspiration for my chamber. I promise pics of my version tomorrow... I mean later today.

DIY – Euthanasia :: Metal Monkey Exotics (http://www.metalmonkeyexotics.com/blog/?page_id=1212)

Credit for this site/info goes to CandyRaver69. I'll finish the chamber today and post pics.

[Strutter769]

It is because our customers know what we mean when we say pups. It means 20-29g. This is important for 2 reasons. 1- Some snakes are small enough to where a weaner (30-44g) is too big. 2- Our pricing depends on size; the heavier the weight, the larger the size, the higher the price. Our sizing is based on weight primarily and we use the rodentpro standard so that way there is no question what a rat pup is or any other size for that matter. :)

What type of scale is used. Obviously digital. Do you have a specific brand name?

[exwizard]

What type of scale is used. Obviously digital. Do you have a specific brand name?

Yes it is a digital scale and accurate to 1g. Max capacity on it is 5000g or 11 lbs. Anyway these are pics of it. The first one is an overall of what it looks like, the second one is a closeup of the readout and the thirs pic is the label on the bottom giving a brand name and more specific specs and brand name.

[Xanafein]

I'm Sure i'm going to be pissing off ALOT of people when i say this, but Using Carbon Dioxide (CO2) Is extremely inhumane, it is the exact equivalent of sealing them in tupper-ware, it pushes the oxygen from the chamber and gives them nothing to breath

Breaking there necks if done right is the only really painless way i can think of short of spending a rather large amount of cash on a way to administer Carbon Monoxide (CO)

^that wasnt the part that i think will piss people off, this is

I personally have been bitten by so many feeders when feeding Prekilled, that I see no reason in treating them humanely as pets, to me its almost the same as offering a deathrow inmate a last meal ect, You are going to kill them and feed them to your pet anyways, why try and pretty it up by doing it in such an elaborate (and in the case of a CO2 chamber) More painful way?

Done making a complete @$$ out of myself, sorry, i had to get it out there, it irks me that people think a carbon dioxide chamber is like putting them to sleep, and that it is a humane way of doing things If you want something Cheap and painless, Fry their nervous system with an apropriatly applied spinal break, or highvoltage electricity

My friend did that, filled a tub with water, took some jumper cables and a car battery, I guarantee you they where dead the second the current hit, and electricity is one of the ways we execute death row inmates, far more humane also even it it has not killed all of there systems, the brain itself is totaly dead from the first jolt, so they cant feel a thing

[RandyRhoads]

I personally have been bitten by so many feeders when feeding Prekilled

Did I read this wrong or...............................

[exwizard]

Did I read this wrong or...............................

I think he means just before they are euthanized.

Setting aside whether or not its humane to use dry ice its certainly quick and cheap. In our case, we use a bucket, lid and bowl filled with dry ice. Then we pour water on the dry ice, drop the rats in it and after a few seconds we have dead rats... yeah theyre a little wet from the process and we do have to dry them afterward as a result but the process is really simple.

[Gungirl]

Lmao.. I read that twice before figuring it out :)

[RandyRhoads]

Lmao.. I read that twice before figuring it out :)

Ah I see. Thought someone needed to put down the pipe if they were being bitten by a dead mouse...lol

[KORBIN5895]

I'm Sure i'm going to be pissing off ALOT of people when i say this, but Using Carbon Dioxide (CO2) Is extremely inhumane, it is the exact equivalent of sealing them in tupper-ware, it pushes the oxygen from the chamber and gives them nothing to breath

Breaking there necks if done right is the only really painless way i can think of short of spending a rather large amount of cash on a way to administer Carbon Monoxide (CO)

^that wasnt the part that i think will piss people off, this is

I personally have been bitten by so many feeders when feeding Prekilled, that I see no reason in treating them humanely as pets, to me its almost the same as offering a deathrow inmate a last meal ect, You are going to kill them and feed them to your pet anyways, why try and pretty it up by doing it in such an elaborate (and in the case of a CO2 chamber) More painful way?

Done making a complete @$$ out of myself, sorry, i had to get it out there, it irks me that people think a carbon dioxide chamber is like putting them to sleep, and that it is a humane way of doing things If you want something Cheap and painless, Fry their nervous system with an apropriatly applied spinal break, or highvoltage electricity

My friend did that, filled a tub with water, took some jumper cables and a car battery, I guarantee you they where dead the second the current hit, and electricity is one of the ways we execute death row inmates, far more humane also even it it has not killed all of there systems, the brain itself is totaly dead from the first jolt, so they cant feel a thing

Personally I agree and don't think less of you. I myself think that an animal is just that...... an animal. I am not saying torture them by shoving red hot needles into them. Co² is co² no matter how you obtain it.

When killing mice or rats I let their head come out of my fist like like peeking out of a tunnel. I then grab their head with my index,middle finger and thumb. Then you just put pressure on those three fingers an the head separates from the spine. Viola!

Rabbits I just grab by the head then snap them like a whip. Be careful or you may end up eating rabbit poop.

[Xanafein]

The whip cracking is an excelent method for rabbits, although it takes a bit of strength to generate the force needed, when i helped my pal feed his retics, would just grab em by the feet and slam there necks against the corner of his anvil rabbits where a bit much for me tho, i think ill probably buy bulk frozen when the time comes to feed anything bigger than rats

[exwizard]

For smaller prey items we just simply used FoodSaver vacuum seal bags; not as wet that way. That is also quick and easy, plus it saves the step needed to bag them before putting them in the freezer.

[Strutter769]

The finished chamber-

[exwizard]

Thats really cool and professional!

[Strutter769]

Thats really cool and professional!

Thanks. While I was still messing with it, I learned the valve on top of the bottle actually IS adjustable! When I bought the tank, I was told it was not, and the first time I tested it, it sure seemed to me that I could not control the gas flow. Turns out I can, so that's a plus. Now, where's that receipt? :hmm:

New and improved, lightweight model:

[Strutter769]

Yes it is a digital scale and accurate to 1g. Max capacity on it is 5000g or 11 lbs. Anyway these are pics of it. The first one is an overall of what it looks like, the second one is a closeup of the readout and the thirs pic is the label on the bottom giving a brand name and more specific specs and brand name.

Thanks Wiz!

[Skumbo]

I'm Sure i'm going to be pissing off ALOT of people when i say this, but Using Carbon Dioxide (CO2) Is extremely inhumane, it is the exact equivalent of sealing them in tupper-ware, it pushes the oxygen from the chamber and gives them nothing to breath

Breaking there necks if done right is the only really painless way i can think of short of spending a rather large amount of cash on a way to administer Carbon Monoxide (CO)


Exactly.


In the long run, really anything you do is, at worst, going to be about the same pain as being bit in the face then constricted to death.

I have seen some "put them in a bag and swing them against a hard surface" to kill them (not on this site, i don't believe) suggestions, which to me, is just stupid. it's not hard to break the neck of such a small animal, people just don't want to kill a fuzzy little cute thing with their bare hands. Honestly, if it wasn't for the risk of injury to a snake, i'd just feed live, at least that would be the "natural" way of them dying.

[insignia100]

I'm Sure i'm going to be pissing off ALOT of people when i say this, but Using Carbon Dioxide (CO2) Is extremely inhumane, it is the exact equivalent of sealing them in tupper-ware, it pushes the oxygen from the chamber and gives them nothing to breath

Breaking there necks if done right is the only really painless way i can think of short of spending a rather large amount of cash on a way to administer Carbon Monoxide (CO)

^that wasnt the part that i think will piss people off, this is

I personally have been bitten by so many feeders when feeding Prekilled, that I see no reason in treating them humanely as pets, to me its almost the same as offering a deathrow inmate a last meal ect, You are going to kill them and feed them to your pet anyways, why try and pretty it up by doing it in such an elaborate (and in the case of a CO2 chamber) More painful way?

Done making a complete @$$ out of myself, sorry, i had to get it out there, it irks me that people think a carbon dioxide chamber is like putting them to sleep, and that it is a humane way of doing things If you want something Cheap and painless, Fry their nervous system with an apropriatly applied spinal break, or highvoltage electricity

My friend did that, filled a tub with water, took some jumper cables and a car battery, I guarantee you they where dead the second the current hit, and electricity is one of the ways we execute death row inmates, far more humane also even it it has not killed all of there systems, the brain itself is totaly dead from the first jolt, so they cant feel a thing

All I have to say is that euthanasia via CO2 is an acceptable method of euthanasia as determined by the American Veterinary Medical Association (see AVMA Euthanasia Guidelines).

"Several investigators have suggested that inhalation of high concentrations of CO2 may be distressing to animals,(63-66) because the gas dissolves in moisture on the nasal mucosa. The resulting product, carbonic acid, may stimulate nociceptors in the nasal mucosa. Some humans exposed to concentrations of around 50% CO2 report that inhaling the gas is unpleasant and that higher concentrations are noxious.(67,68) A brief study of swine examined the aversive nature of CO2 exposure(69) and found that 90% CO2 was aversive to pigs while 30% was not. For rats, exposure to increasing concentrations of CO2 (33% achieved after 1 minute) in their home cage produced no evident stress as measured by behavior and ACTH, glucose, and corticosterone concentrations in serum.(70)"

I guarantee you that you would see elevated ACTH, glucose, and corticosterone in rodents that died via constriction.

Note that electrocution is NOT a humane method of euthanasia. It causes death by cardiac fibrillation, NOT "frying the brain."

"However, animals do not lose consciousness for 10 to 30 seconds or more after onset of cardiac fibrillation. It is imperative that animals be unconscious before being electrocuted. This can be accomplished by any acceptable means, including electrical stunning.(25) Although an effective, 1* step stunning and electrocution method has been described for use in sheep and hogs, euthanasia by electrocution in most species remains a 2-step procedure.(25, 63,140) ... Although the method is conditionally acceptable if the aforementioned requirements are met, its disadvantages far outweigh its advantages in most applications. Techniques that apply electric current from head to tail, head to foot, or head to moistened metal plates on which the animal is standing are unacceptable."

Now tell me, if these so-called "humane" methods of euthanasia were really humane, do you really think they would be grounds for a veterinarian to lose his license if he used them?

About the only true thing you said is that cervical dislocation is humane. Nothing else you mention has any scientific grounds for support.

[insignia100]

In the long run, really anything you do is, at worst, going to be about the same pain as being bit in the face then constricted to death.

So, just to clarify, you say that being put into a CO2 chamber to suffocate is just as painful as suffocating from constriction? Seems like the constriction bit would add a significant amount of additional pain and distress to me.

[KORBIN5895]

Does the American Veterinary Medical Association allow a vet to remove dew claws, dock tails and crop ears? If so the can take their hypocrisy and shove it.

[insignia100]

"The AVMA opposes ear cropping and tail docking of dogs when done solely for cosmetic purposes. The AVMA encourages the elimination of ear cropping and tail docking from breed standards."

Animal Welfare AVMA policy - Ear Cropping and Tail Docking of Dogs (http://www.avma.org/issues/policy/animal_welfare/tail_docking.asp)

The only reason any veterinarian I have worked for does them for cosmetic reasons is to prevent having to repair a botched back yard breeder's ear crop. As far as dew claw removal, I have no idea why you are opposed to that...

Besides, I hardly think anyone would agree that inhumane euthanasia and tail docking/ear cropping are even close to being in the same ethical category.

[KORBIN5895]

Mutilating an animal to tickle someone's fancy is just as bad as drowning a rat as far as I am concerned. Also any vet that says they do it to save the poor animal from a backyard butcher........ well I have opinions on that too.

[insignia100]

Well, you might have opinions on that, but I have personally seen mangled backyard breeder jobs. As far as dew claws, have you ever seen a dewclaw with no bony attachment ripped off and bleeding like a stuck pig? Because I have, and its a lot easier and cheaper to remove during a spay/neuter than to wait until it rips off.

Note: I am personally against tail docking, ear cropping, and most cat declaws.

[KORBIN5895]

Most cat declaws?

[insignia100]

If a person with a clotting disorder (with whom a severe cat scratch could be life threatening) is faced with either sending their cat to the shelter or having it declawed, I'd declaw it. That's also the ONLY time I would ever consider doing a rear declaw, and ONLY if the cat was strictly indoors.

The people who want their cat declawed so it doesn't mess up their nice leather sofa... well, they can shove it where the sun don't shine.

[KORBIN5895]

If a person with a clotting disorder (with whom a severe cat scratch could be life threatening) is faced with either sending their cat to the shelter or having it declawed, I'd declaw it. That's also the ONLY time I would ever consider doing a rear declaw, and ONLY if the cat was strictly indoors.

The people who want their cat declawed so it doesn't mess up their nice leather sofa... well, they can shove it where the sun don't shine.

I buy that. Good call.

[Caylan]

http://glimmerandshimmer.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/soft-paws-kitty-nails-2.jpg?w=490
For those with furniture more important then a living cat.... Hope they get their claws into something while thier getting put on though... Caylan.S

[insignia100]

One thing I always have to keep in mind is that we do the best we can. Being able to euthanize our patients is, in all honesty, our greatest privilege. Look at human doctors, and how they are forced to let their patients suffer, even against their wishes, because euthanasia is not an option. Surely we all owe it to the animals we use to do the best by them and euthanize them as humanely as possible.

"With a true appreciation of life comes the responsibility of ensuring a humane death." -Pam Hullinger, DVM and Carolyn Stull, PhD

[RandyRhoads]

So if you are against ear cropping and such for cosmetic purposes I assume you are against circumcision in newborns? It is pretty similar. Genital mutilation without permission. Anyone else feel like the comparison is very similar and it's odd how society just accepts that one and doesn't give it two thoughts...?

[Strutter769]

So if you are against ear cropping and such for cosmetic purposes I assume you are against circumcision in newborns? It is pretty similar. Genital mutilation without permission. Anyone else feel like the comparison is very similar and it's odd how society just accepts that one and doesn't give it two thoughts...?

Excellent points.

[Xanafein]

All I have to say is that euthanasia via CO2 is an acceptable method of euthanasia as determined by the American Veterinary Medical Association (see AVMA Euthanasia Guidelines).

"Several investigators have suggested that inhalation of high concentrations of CO2 may be distressing to animals,(63-66) because the gas dissolves in moisture on the nasal mucosa. The resulting product, carbonic acid, may stimulate nociceptors in the nasal mucosa. Some humans exposed to concentrations of around 50% CO2 report that inhaling the gas is unpleasant and that higher concentrations are noxious.(67,68) A brief study of swine examined the aversive nature of CO2 exposure(69) and found that 90% CO2 was aversive to pigs while 30% was not. For rats, exposure to increasing concentrations of CO2 (33% achieved after 1 minute) in their home cage produced no evident stress as measured by behavior and ACTH, glucose, and corticosterone concentrations in serum.(70)"

I guarantee you that you would see elevated ACTH, glucose, and corticosterone in rodents that died via constriction.

Note that electrocution is NOT a humane method of euthanasia. It causes death by cardiac fibrillation, NOT "frying the brain."

"However, animals do not lose consciousness for 10 to 30 seconds or more after onset of cardiac fibrillation. It is imperative that animals be unconscious before being electrocuted. This can be accomplished by any acceptable means, including electrical stunning.(25) Although an effective, 1* step stunning and electrocution method has been described for use in sheep and hogs, euthanasia by electrocution in most species remains a 2-step procedure.(25, 63,140) ... Although the method is conditionally acceptable if the aforementioned requirements are met, its disadvantages far outweigh its advantages in most applications. Techniques that apply electric current from head to tail, head to foot, or head to moistened metal plates on which the animal is standing are unacceptable."

Now tell me, if these so-called "humane" methods of euthanasia were really humane, do you really think they would be grounds for a veterinarian to lose his license if he used them?

About the only true thing you said is that cervical dislocation is humane. Nothing else you mention has any scientific grounds for support.


I Did not say that the brain frying killed them, simply that with the kind of wattage we ran through them they where in a vegetative state although to be honest i dont care how they die, they are nourishment for my pet, break em gas em drown em shock em they are gonna be dead and eaten by the time the day is done, they are a rodent, bred for food in many cases Honestly they dont measure in the same class as dogs or cats or horses. Food is food, I hunt, when i hunt i try to get the lethal shot in, but it doesnt always happen, oh well, stab it gut it, haul the carcass back to the shed to make some burger and steaks

I simply do not understand the concern put into how humane a rodent killing process is i just dont and that is all i was really trying to say, also i dont care what those studies say, death by Co2 no matter how it is introduced is never pleasant, I ran out of air on a dive trip once, fortunately i was only 20 feet down so it did not take to long to surface, but let me tell you it was hell on earth wich true was oxygen deprivation more than co2, but the fact remains that i was breathing thininer and thinner air until it was gone, i would rather have a few instants of pain, than live through hell until its all gone

In any event, ill stick to severing the spine with either a well placed break, or a fillet knife for those picky eaters

[Skumbo]

So if you are against ear cropping and such for cosmetic purposes I assume you are against circumcision in newborns? It is pretty similar. Genital mutilation without permission. Anyone else feel like the comparison is very similar and it's odd how society just accepts that one and doesn't give it two thoughts...?

I was going to bring this up but you did before I saw this, I'm against both, I'm actually rather upset (though to be honest, would have had it done when older anyway by choice, so not a huge deal..) that i was "forced" to be circumcized as a child, I find it inhumane and had a long talk with my parents about it, though there wasn't much they could do at that point.

For me, im an animal lover is a weird sense. Ill all for hunting for your own food, but i'd rather shoot and kill instantly if possible than chase down a pig with a bunch of dogs and knife it to death.

^ your dive trip experience is how Co2 will make you feel, if you look up the pathological effects of Co2 on how it kills you, basically you cant breath air anymore (because Co2 wont let your blood take air) and you feel like the air is thinning and thinning like you did, despite there being air for you to breath.

I wouldnt say that rodents are "below" anything, dogs cats etc.

I've eaten a dog, they're actually quite good. And I have a rodent for a pet. Animals are animals, thats all I see it as. Hell, if given a legal/safe/healthy way to eat a human.. why not? Doesn't mean im a sociopath and i hate humanity, it's all just meat and the "circle of life" so to speak. So, if I can, i'll get them as humanely killed as possible, but I respect and understand that I will end up as food as well (bacteria, worms, etc.) doesn't mean im "Below" worms.

[jarich]

Wow, talk about a weird direction this thread went in! Hahahaha.

[insignia100]

So if you are against ear cropping and such for cosmetic purposes I assume you are against circumcision in newborns? It is pretty similar. Genital mutilation without permission. Anyone else feel like the comparison is very similar and it's odd how society just accepts that one and doesn't give it two thoughts...?

Actually, yes, I am...

[Jenn_06]

Wow, talk about a weird direction this thread went in! Hahahaha.

about to say the same thing lol

[RandyRhoads]

Wow, talk about a weird direction this thread went in! Hahahaha.

Sorry I was looking at getting a doberman a while back and considered cropping the ears and somehow got into a huge debate with someone over this and thought it was odd how people can be against ear cropping yet chop off part of their newborn childs junk.


^ your dive trip experience is how Co2 will make you feel, if you look up the pathological effects of Co2 on how it kills you, basically you cant breath air anymore (because Co2 wont let your blood take air) and you feel like the air is thinning and thinning like you did, despite there being air for you to breath.

.




That is not how it kills you, that would be CO . CO has a much higher affinity for hemoglobin in your red blood cells and will bind to them 240 times more readily than O2, creating carboxyhemoglobin, preventing O2 from being able to bind to them since they are already "taken". Resulting in hypoperfusion of body tissue and eventually death.

Co2 on the other hand needs to be expelled from the body. If it can not be blown off you will suffer from respiratory acidosis (a decreases in PH) turning your blood much to acidic. Making you (or the animal, in this case) confused and appearing to be drunk and leading to death.

[Strutter769]

Well, I put down about 8 or so pups last night. I definitely don't have it down to a science yet, that's for sure. I couldn't tell if the movement is saw was post-mortem (sp.) or not, so while they were at least asleep I put them in a Ziploc straight into the freezer. Next time I think I just have to leave them in the chamber a bit longer after it's filled with gas.

[Skumbo]

Sorry I was looking at getting a doberman a while back and considered cropping the ears and somehow got into a huge debate with someone over this and thought it was odd how people can be against ear cropping yet chop off part of their newborn childs junk.






That is not how it kills you, that would be CO . CO has a much higher affinity for hemoglobin in your red blood cells and will bind to them 240 times more readily than O2, creating carboxyhemoglobin, preventing O2 from being able to bind to them since they are already "taken". Resulting in hypoperfusion of body tissue and eventually death.

Co2 on the other hand needs to be expelled from the body. If it can not be blown off you will suffer from respiratory acidosis (a decreases in PH) turning your blood much to acidic. Making you (or the animal, in this case) confused and appearing to be drunk and leading to death.

Hah you're right, i had em mixed up in my head. Stupid chem 2 test ive been studying for has my brain all full of VSEPR structures and hydrization instead of basics :P