Burmballs, Bateaters, Wall's, etc., etc....

[BurmeseGuy]

So I was looking through all the different Hybrids out there and man there are a ton of different combo's out there. I was wondering what everyone thought about people breeding all these different types of cross breeds. I think a lot of them are freaking amazingly beautiful but, what are the chances of these happening in the wild? With relation to where each species lives globally? Do you think it's ethically ok or not? Would you ever consider breeding some of your own personal snakes to come up with some of these wild creations, sort of Frankenstein type stuff if you ask me. Just kind of struck me as a topic that might get some talking going...I mean Super Dwarfism and Dwarfism is already out there and it seems to be taken by everyone it certainly isn't a Hybrid that doesn't make sense or even seem ethically challenging or wrong, it's something everyone has come to accept. Anyways just thought I'd get everyone's take on the subject.

[youngster]

Dwarfs in retics and BCIs are just localities. Some places get smaller than others. So they're no intergrading or hybridization in that.

[CDN_Blood]

It's no secret that I think hybrids are the result of keepers with a total lack of ethics who are only out to tickle their own fancy or fill their pockets with ill-begotten cash.

I use the word Frankenstein to describe hybrids also - horrible monsters made from different pieces that don't naturally fit together and result in a creature that never should have been.

For the record, not everyone does accept these things - I don't, and I don't travel in circles that do accept such ideas. If someone I call a friend was to create a hybrid, they'd go straight to the Black List and be permanently ostracized; no question about that, no hesitation, no exceptions.

I've been around the block more times than I care to think about and I've seen this hobby change so radically in that time that my opinions have become really harsh and dogmatic, but even though I'm so adamant about stuff like this, I'm still glad there are people like myself out there. I just hope I'm not the last of my kind, lol.

Addendum: I should clarify that I'm strictly talking about hybrids and not intergrades. While I'm not totally on board with intergrades either, it's the hybrids that I'm dead-set against.

[BurmeseGuy]

Dwarfs in retics and BCIs are just localities. Some places get smaller than others. So they're no intergrading or hybridization in that.

While in theory you are correct Dwarfism it exists but in order to get Super Dwarfism it is Hybridization...so only part of your statement is true and factual. Island Dwarfism is phenomenon but the "Super" part comes from humans

[BurmeseGuy]

It's no secret that I think hybrids are the result of keepers with a total lack of ethics who are only out to tickle their own fancy or fill their pockets with ill-begotten cash.

I use the word Frankenstein to describe hybrids also - horrible monsters made from different pieces that don't naturally fit together and result in a creature that never should have been.

For the record, not everyone does accept these things - I don't, and I don't travel in circles that do accept such ideas. If someone I call a friend was to create a hybrid, they'd go straight to the Black List and be permanently ostracized; no question about that, no hesitation, no exceptions.

I've been around the block more times than I care to think about and I've seen this hobby change so radically in that time that my opinions have become really harsh and dogmatic, but even though I'm so adamant about stuff like this, I'm still glad there are people like myself out there. I just hope I'm not the last of my kind, lol.

Addendum: I should clarify that I'm strictly talking about hybrids and not intergrades. While I'm not totally on board with intergrades either, it's the hybrids that I'm dead-set against.

I know there are lots of people like you still out there man...and this is like an opinion thread you know I'm not looking for one "right answer" I want many if you know what I mean...while part of me agrees with you there is the other part that just simply enjoys looking at all the possibilities or outcomes if you will and just marvel at them. Some of them are just down right amazing but then I get that little tick goes off in my head and says, "is this right?" I won't lie though most of the time that thought gets smooshed by the radical morphs and hybridization that is taking place these days

[UwabamiReptiles]

The Big Topic: Hybrids. I've seen some pretty nasty threads when this topic has come up. The biggest issue people seem to have is that they don't want a hybrid being passed as a pure animal.

I personally like some of the hybrids out there and might even try for some in time. I think if someone does do it, then there is a certain way you must go about. Like record keeping and being 110% clear of what the animal is. As far as the ethics part of it, I don't think its a horrible thing to make hybrids. I understand where people are coming from that are opposed but it doesn't bother me personally. I guess I'm just part of the new school:p. Some of the hybrids out there are breathtaking IMO. I've seen some carpondros and jagpondros that were just knockouts.

On a another note, I don't know if its just me but it seems like all the hybrid discussion always revolves around the python hybrids. I'm pretty sure there are tons of more colubrid hybrids from what I've seen and it seems to never get the response the python hybrids do. I'm wondering what is everyone elses take on that.

[MoreliAddict]

our thoughts on hybrids (http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/general-colubrid-forum/89941-hybrids.html)

(search bar)

[Jenn_06]

some hybirds are cool looking but dont like them muddying up the water,

[BurmeseGuy]

our thoughts on hybrids (http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/general-colubrid-forum/89941-hybrids.html)

(search bar)

Yeah pretty sure I said both, Hybrids and Crossbreeding Thanks though, good try...piece of advice...you don't like the thread don't post.

[Gungirl]

Yeah pretty sure I said both, Hybrids and Crossbreeding Thanks though, good try...piece of advice...you don't like the thread don't post.

Wow.. that was kind of rude. They where just showing you more opinions on part of the topic at hand.

[MoreliAddict]

Yeah pretty sure I said both, Hybrids and Crossbreeding Thanks though, good try...piece of advice...you don't like the thread don't post.
i was just pointing out a thread created a couple weeks ago in which hybrids and crossbreeding were discussed for 7 pages, not a personal attack :p

[BurmeseGuy]

some hybirds are cool looking but dont like them muddying up the water,

Some Hybrids are cool to spend a few days in my house until I sell them...lol but I really kinda like how you put that Jenn, muddying up the water. I have a regular Retic and I have the SD Retic for about 8 more hours I hope...It is INSANELY aggressive it's in quarantine so it's in our room...tried getting out all night and hissed so loud one time it woke me up and scared the crap outta me. It just seems "off" to me...my other snakes are quiet as can be...but I can see both sides of the tape there...now Jenn how do you feel about the crossbreeding that is taking place nowadays?

[UwabamiReptiles]

our thoughts on hybrids (http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/general-colubrid-forum/89941-hybrids.html)

(search bar)


Thanks BimthaS! I must of missed that thread:hmm:. There were some good points made. Thanks

[BurmeseGuy]

i was just pointing out a thread created a couple weeks ago in which hybrids and crossbreeding were discussed for 7 pages, not a personal attack :p

I found the (search bar) to be kind of rude and demeaning as if I were stupid or something

but if it was not a personal attack, then I apologize sorry I was on the phone and posted before putting this in...my bad

[lady_bug87]

I am in personal agreement with Todd about the Hybrid thing my GTP is a locality mix and I knew that when I purchased her. That is also why I will not breed her when she becomes mature. I don't believe on muddying the waters either as Jenn said.

[Will0W783]

While in theory you are correct Dwarfism it exists but in order to get Super Dwarfism it is Hybridization...so only part of your statement is true and factual. Island Dwarfism is phenomenon but the "Super" part comes from humans

Actually, Super Dwarf retics are a natural occurrence. They originated from the Kayuadi Islands near Indonesia. These islands have been isolated from the mainland for thousands of years, and the retics trapped on the islands have had to make do with smaller prey items and the need for more climbing to get tree-bound prey. Therefore, natural selection favored smaller animals who could survive on the smaller food, and over time, the retics became smaller and smaller. So Super Dwarfs are NOT a hybrid or a man-made creation. They just represent a locality, much like Jungle carpets vs. Coastal carpets.

I am on the fence about actual hybrids. I think some of them are really neat and beautiful; however, they need to be carefully regulated and labeled as hybrids, or we run the risk of muddying up genetic pools and losing the original pure parent species. Hybrids should have to be microchipped and registered so that there procreation can be controlled. They wont' go away- people will always push the boundaries of what they can create with directed captive breeding, but it places a heavy burden on us herpers to be responsible about breeding and keep the pure bloodlines going as well.

[youngster]

How is super dwarfism hybridization?
You don't cross two species to get them

edit: whoops, didn't see Kim's post :p

[Necrias]

It's no secret that I think hybrids are the result of keepers with a total lack of ethics who are only out to tickle their own fancy or fill their pockets with ill-begotten cash.

I use the word Frankenstein to describe hybrids also - horrible monsters made from different pieces that don't naturally fit together and result in a creature that never should have been.

For the record, not everyone does accept these things - I don't, and I don't travel in circles that do accept such ideas. If someone I call a friend was to create a hybrid, they'd go straight to the Black List and be permanently ostracized; no question about that, no hesitation, no exceptions.

I've been around the block more times than I care to think about and I've seen this hobby change so radically in that time that my opinions have become really harsh and dogmatic, but even though I'm so adamant about stuff like this, I'm still glad there are people like myself out there. I just hope I'm not the last of my kind, lol.

Addendum: I should clarify that I'm strictly talking about hybrids and not intergrades. While I'm not totally on board with intergrades either, it's the hybrids that I'm dead-set against.

Could you explain a bit more WHY you are so dead-set against hybrids? Generally speaking, the only health problem hybrids have to deal with is infertility, which I don't see as a huge negative in the grand scheme of things. If they were more prone to health issues I would completely agree with you, but I just don't see it. If anything, breeding jag carpets is more "unethical" than hybrids, considering the neurological issues present in some offspring.

That being said, I think carpondros are some of the most beautiful snakes on the planet, and am thinking about getting a GTP so that I may breed my own (too cheap to buy one!). Also, my girlfriend would love a burmball or a blood/superball, and I don't see us as particularly unethical.

[millertime89]

I'm going to post on the original post then come back to the rest of the posts later.
MOST hybrids would never occur naturally, that said, bateaters and carpondros have the potential to happen as the individual species do share some of the same geographic areas. A burmball as 0 chance of happening in the wild unless it happens in Florida as a result of the invasive population. That said the likelihood of hybrids happening in the wild is so low because these species inherently search out their own species for procreation. In addition even if the two species do breed in the wild, the likelihood of any of the eggs actually hatching is very low. Conditions have to be perfect in captivity for the hybrids to grow big enough and healthy enough to hatch.
Dwarfism (and super) are all specific subspecies, even if they're not universally accepted as such. The Kayuadi and Jampea locality retics are classified as Python reticulatus japeanus and dwarf burms are python bivittatus progschai (there is debate that the burm should no longer be considered a subspecies of python molurus and should be classified as its own separate species)

[millertime89]

While in theory you are correct Dwarfism it exists but in order to get Super Dwarfism it is Hybridization...so only part of your statement is true and factual. Island Dwarfism is phenomenon but the "Super" part comes from humans

No, the Kayaudi locality retic naturally does not grow past 8 feet, usually 6. There is talk that they need to be a different subspecies from the Jamp retic because Jamps typically hit 12ish feet.

[Xanafein]

Interstingly im curious on how you draw the line for hybrids,

with the Reclasification of green trees from Chondro to Morelia Virdis im curious to see why people call carpondros a hybrid, because by that logic any carpet with bredl DNA is also a hybrid yet ive seen most people refer to those as an intergrade

That aside
i have no problem with breeding hybrids keeping hybrids or anything else

[millertime89]

While I agree with the sentiment that muddying the waters is to be frowned upon, it should be noted that very few of the true hybrids have made it past 75% to one side or another, and I say very few because I honestly don't know if one has. I would in fact argue that integrades are more damaging to the hobby than actual hybrids because hybrids are so visually stunning that there is no way anyone that knows what they are will mistake them to be anything BUT a hybrid.

Todd I'm sorry you feel the way you do, I guess we can't be friends because I do plan on making hybrids in the future. That said I will only be selling/giving the to people I know and trust to not breed them again. Just like I will not sell any pureblood (lol HP reference) animals to anyone that I don't think will be able to properly care for it.

[smittyd16]

For me its like breeding dogs! When I was a kid I had a half Queensland heeler, half coyote and it was the best dog ive ever had!

I find no problem in hybridization. Ive wanted a GTP to breed with my carpet since I saw my first carpondro!

As long as the hybrids are separated from people breeding pure and selling them as pure its fine. Hybrids are beautiful animals and shouldn't be called Frankenstein creations! They should be respected and viewed as their own "species" if you will.

[AaronRiot]

My two cents.

I don't like any of it. I hate that if I want a striking black and yellow jungle I have to be on a breeders *** about lineages ect. And THEN I have to make the decision as to whether or not I'm talking to an honest person, which can be as easily deceiving as a super-mocha-latte-het-vanilla-frappachino carpet. Oi. And if there is trouble now, let's look ten years down the road...

To me, these fancy-pants snakes are just a fashion statement. And a status statement. That goes for the morph fad, as well as the others. And a lack of appreciation for the natural beauty of the animal.

Sometimes I wonder what happens to the "normal" balls that don't sell bc no one wants them anymore, especially speaking towards the BIG breeders, not that I would know. And OT why do we degrade the real deal by calling them NORMAL it's like MEDIOCRE... Why not a word like Natural?

We people just can't leave a good thing alone.

/rant. Just my opinion of course to each their own.

On a side-note, I would love a Jamp at somepoint down the line... But will I risk it? Not likely. And that really sucks.

[jaleely]

I would own one....it's not the snakes fault...as in own like rescue or if it was given to me...probably wouldn't buy one, and would not breed one. I may not breed anything except my dumeri's boas, actually. The more i get into the hobby the more I get annoyed by how many people breed snakes for no reason other than making a "quick" buck (probably better off just saving the money they spent) or people who try to make that "one cool morph" to get a name for themselves.

I think there are a few people on here i've seen that i've had this discussion with before, whom I believe breed their snakes because they love the animals...and they know i fuss but i'm okay with them =P
I don't think it's needed to hybridize.

I'm still pissy i was sold a jungle/coastal carpet python as a coastal...when i didn't know any better. I was really confused trying to identify the snake, until i was able to meet the breeder again and got the explanation. And even then he didn't want to admit it, and tried to push it off as his wife didn't know any better...which is a total lie. She flat out told me it was a coastal carpet python.
ANYway...i love my little bitey brat, but that's what i think of when this is brought up!

[Caylan]

Not sure I want to get into this really, but hybrids I've alwasys liked, its like adding more python species to the world for me. However I don't disrespect and won't put down any one against hybrids, unlike how they usually feel about me. Whatever, not my place to tell you how to feel. But is it worth getting so upset about? I mean its more by circumstance if you ask me, not cut and dry like said above. Not all hybrid keepers and breeders are bad people, not sure why we are considered that. We're doing what we love just as you are. In the end, we're all a minority and looked down upon anyway, so I'm rather used to it, but to be put in a smaller group divided amongst people who seemingly like the same things I like, well then fine, I guess someday I'll just have to enjoy them by myself. Seriously hoep i don't lose any friends over it though. Caylan.S.

PS: ever seen an adult bredli head? They aren't carpet pythons in my opinion, as much a hybrid as carpondros. Not an integrade. Plus they are hard to diffrentiate from coastals when bred to a jag usually... I dunno. My stance on that, I have a bredli jag and a bredli jag sib, and I plan on selling the bredli jag and keeping the sib to pair with Sync later on. Then people will hate me...

[AaronRiot]

"PS: ever seen an adult bredli head? They aren't carpet pythons in my opinion, as much a hybrid as carpondros. Not an integrade. Plus they are hard to diffrentiate from coastals when bred to a jag usually... I dunno."

That's like saying a death adder isnt an elapid bc it doesn't look like an inland taipan....

[Caylan]

I'll admit I know next to nothing about venomous snakes, but would you call a death adder bred to an inland taipan an integrade or a hybird? Caylan.S.

[Caylan]

PS I'm still saying bredli are morelia, as much as a green tree python or scrub python(more scrub in my opinion really...) and not a carpet python aka morelia spilota spp, but morelia bredli instead. Its my take on it based on experience, nothing I say is actually fact lol. Just my argument for how bredli integrades should really be considered more like carpondros or moon pythons, as hybrids. They just are similar in size to a carpet python really... but if anyone really knew my whole take on taxonomy, they'd understand my opinions more I guess.

[millertime89]

I would like to apologize if I came across a bit harsh earlier, frustrating day. While I understand people's objections to hybrids, I think the attitude that some adopt in regards to them is unnecessary. Similar to people's attitudes towards big snakes or reptile owners in general.

[Xanafein]

moon python?


what is this? sounds intriguing

[millertime89]

moon python?


what is this? sounds intriguing

huh? quote the original post please.

[AaronRiot]

Caylan- gotcha, your post sounded like you were making an opinion on taxonomy based purely on the shape of the snake's head...thanks for rephrasing :)

[Caylan]

Moon Pythons are a moluccan scrub crossed with a carpet python. Beautiful snakes as well, but I would much rather a pure barneck or kinghorni myself...

I kinda was vague at first, but even the face alone is enough to tell really, let alone other things. Glad I cleared it up. Caylan.S.

[Caylan]

Any Moon Pythons pics?? (http://www.moreliapythons.com/forums/showthread.php?28702-Any-Moon-Pythons-pics&highlight=moon) There are also Coelens, wich are exactly what they sound like. Again I would love a boelens pure far more. They can be found using the search bar at the top of the site on the link I provided. Caylan.S.

[KORBIN5895]

Moon Pythons are a moluccan scrub crossed with a carpet python. Beautiful snakes as well, but I would much rather a pure barneck or kinghorni myself...

I kinda was vague at first, but even the face alone is enough to tell really, let alone other things. Glad I cleared it up. Caylan.S.

Giggity Giggity goo!

[millertime89]

Any Moon Pythons pics?? (http://www.moreliapythons.com/forums/showthread.php?28702-Any-Moon-Pythons-pics&highlight=moon) There are also Coelens, wich are exactly what they sound like. Again I would love a boelens pure far more. They can be found using the search bar at the top of the site on the link I provided. Caylan.S.

I'm not a member and don't want to sign up to view the picture, can you host it yourself and post it here?

[Caylan]

Sorry, I didn;t realise you have to be a member. I'll see if I can get the picture credited first, then post it. Give me a few... Caylan.S.

[Caylan]

http://www.moreliapythons.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=14386&d=1285129733
Here it is, bred by Mardy, who I understand is in Asia right now, away from his actual collection.

PS looks rather similar to an adult bredli cross if you ask me... didn't realise that until now..

[millertime89]

still can't see it, you'll have to host it yourself for any non-members to see.

[BurmeseGuy]

I cant see it

[Caylan]

Google is free... Caylan.S.

[KORBIN5895]

That doesn't turn my crank.

[red ink]

Interstingly im curious on how you draw the line for hybrids,

with the Reclasification of green trees from Chondro to Morelia Virdis im curious to see why people call carpondros a hybrid, because by that logic any carpet with bredl DNA is also a hybrid yet ive seen most people refer to those as an intergrade

That aside
i have no problem with breeding hybrids keeping hybrids or anything else


Not a fan of hybrids, not against them either... each to their own. I don't even own a single "morph" animal and all my animals are locality specific (even my BD) and no hybrid or intergrade for that matter will enter my collection (personal preference/choice).

Now Carpondros

Morelia viridis is a full species

Morelia spilota sp. is the carpet complex Morelia spilota and the spilota, cheynei, variegata, mcdowelli and metcalfei being the sub-pecies.

Therefore a breeding between to full species of animals is a hybrid. A breeding between the carpets is an intergrade.

Morelia bredli, Morelia imbricata, Morelia oenpelliensis, Morelia carinata, Morelia kinghorni and I think?? Morelia amethystina are the other full species of the Morelia family.