Seriously need advice again...

[BurmeseGuy]

Ok, I took advice from asnakelovinbabe, Kat, Miller...to go out and buy some tubs for my new babies...so the wife and kids and I all pack into our little bus (astro van) and head to wal-mart and then to rat/mouse supplier for a rat for the albino...so we come back...I sterilize the tubs after burning holes in the sides for venting and air circulation...low and behold...these 2 snakes whom I can't remember who but someone said it would be stressing them out leaving them together, are laying in a single hide together in perfect harmony...no lie..and there are 3 hides I have in their enclosure...are you 100% certain the separation will do them good and they will act just fine...cuz I'm not gonna lie these 2 follow each other everywhere and do everything together...I just think I need to be convinced that these 2 should not be together when all they do is be up one another's butt's including but not limited too sleeping...

[aj099]

my 2 boa`s are the exact same,where one goes the other follow`s and alway`s sleep together.They have been together for 7 month`s

But most people do not advise to do this.

[BurmeseGuy]

yeah I didn't clarify sorry AJ, one is a baby Burmese and the other is a baby Reticulated and they have been together since last year when the Burmese was born...

[millertime89]

when they're little, its entirely possible that they won't be stressed living together, however its not recommended because you never know when one or both decides that they've had enough of each other and they start fighting. Be preemptive here, eliminate the possibility of any harm coming to them.
Cute story by the way, however I have a feeling it can be easily explained. 1. That was the hide in the place that they felt most comfortable in and 2. The tighter the space the safer they feel, hence, when one crawls in the other does too and they're packed in so tight they can't be easily extracted.

[BurmeseGuy]

Makes sense, just don't want them to how do I say...act differently once separated is all...it is quite hilarious if the wife's phone was here I'd take pictures, the Burm has his head out just laying there while the Retic is completely hidden except one part of his coil...that the Burm is layin on...

[Gungirl]

Snakes don't cuddle. If they are laying together it is because the hide they are in is the temp and security they are both looking for.

[Jenn_06]

this is why you need to separated them, yes they look cute when they "cuddle" but they dont love each other this can happen and when it does its going to be too late for both of them, yes its ball pythons but can happen to any kind of snakes,

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o284/joejenn06/cannibalisticroyals21zh3.jpg
and the smaller snake ate the bigger one

[BurmeseGuy]

this is why you need to separated them, yes they look cute when they "cuddle" but they dont love each other this can happen and when it does its going to be too late for both of them, yes its ball pythons but can happen to any kind of snakes,


and the smaller snake ate the bigger one

yeah it's kinda common knowledge you don't put ball pythons together but I see your point...I just don't want them to say stop eating when I separate them. If you could show me a picture of a Retic that ate a Burm or vice versa...then I'd be more apt to believe it...now I've seen two Burms go at it a male and female during "off" season...luckily my friend and I were able to separate them before the male died...he had one and bought another thinking they could live together...I will separate them later tonight though, thanks guys and gals for the input/advice

[BurmeseGuy]

Snakes don't cuddle. If they are laying together it is because the hide they are in is the temp and security they are both looking for.

btw they like I said they go everywhere in the enclosure together and they don't just lay in the hide together, they lay everywhere together, heck they even drink water together it's nuts, it's just an extraordinary thing to see is all

[Gungirl]

btw they like I said they go everywhere in the enclosure together and they don't just lay in the hide together, they lay everywhere together, heck they even drink water together it's nuts, it's just an extraordinary thing to see is all

Ok so they are ALWAYS competing for space.. more of a reason to separate them before 1 gets mad and harms the other.

[Rogue628]

this is why you need to separated them, yes they look cute when they "cuddle" but they dont love each other this can happen and when it does its going to be too late for both of them, yes its ball pythons but can happen to any kind of snakes,

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o284/joejenn06/cannibalisticroyals21zh3.jpg
and the smaller snake ate the bigger one


OMG! What happened to cause this???? :shocked:

[Gungirl]

OMG! What happened to cause this???? :shocked:

They where housed together

[Jenn_06]

They will not stop eating and if they do its because they moved into a new place not because they miss each other, and you need to think after you feed them they are not out of feeding mood right after they are done with the rats and can go on for hours and even a day or 2 like my Isis, they might turn on each other.

[BurmeseGuy]

They will not stop eating and if they do its because they moved into a new place not because they miss each other, and you need to think after you feed them they are not out of feeding mood right after they are done with the rats and can go on for hours and even a day or 2 like my Isis, they might turn on each other.

yes I fed them, they are separated and will be from now on, I have feeder bins just don't have a permanent thing right now...hopefully the breeder will be by today to buy this SD Retic from me and I will go and get some tubs...

[Rogue628]

They where housed together

What happened while they were housed together to cause this?

[Swany]

One ate the other.

[Gungirl]

What happened while they were housed together to cause this?

Nothing happened. Most snakes do not like to be with other snakes. If they where fighting over the hot spot or a good hide one might eat the other to eliminate competition. Also if they where fed and then left alone one could have still been in feed mode and decided the other one looked like a good meal.

[KORBIN5895]

I personally would like to talk to the person who owned those snakes. That is the only picture I have ever seen to support this.

[Gungirl]

A guy I know that deals with a breeder a few states over has seen first hand several cases of a snake eating another. I don't question it at all...

[KORBIN5895]

So this breeder has seen his snakes eat each other on several occasions?

[Trent]

I have seen one snake have another snake have way down its throat.Pet store wizard decided it would be a good idea to feed two boas in the same tank.Came back twenty min later the other snake was half swallowed.

[BarelyBreathing]

I have seen one snake have another snake have way down its throat.Pet store wizard decided it would be a good idea to feed two boas in the same tank.Came back twenty min later the other snake was half swallowed.

I have seen similar posts with this a few times. Some included pictures. It was pretty disturbing.

[Terranaut]

I have chosen to co habitate my Boas. PERMENENTLY!! But I do feed them seperately.
I looked into this a great deal before going this route.
It's fine to house breeding boas like this but I have no idea about any other breed. Also I would not put 2 same sex snakes together. I certainly wouldn't put a burm with a retic. Just sounds wrong.

[KORBIN5895]

I am interested to see how that goes Dan.

[Terranaut]

So far so good. They cuddle , they spend time apart , they lock regularly and all seems great. I will pull Mack out for Eva's delivery and a couple days after but thats it. I will post a thread on co-habitation of boas after a year or so of doing it.

[Will0W783]

Terranaut, I understand you have your decision, but it really isn't in the snakes' best interest to be housed together year-round. Snakes do not "cuddle" - they might coil together if there is one optimal spot in the cage or for warmth if the cage temps are not high enough, but they do not develop emotional attachment to each other.
Also, from a breeding standpoint....snakes that are housed together permanently are less likely to breed. They seem to get used to one another's presence and it doesn't spark a breeding response even when they are cooled.
If you ask any successful breeder or seasoned keeper, they will tell you it's not a good idea to house two snakes together year-round. It's just not healthy for them long-term.

[Terranaut]

I did a lot of reading about breeding boas long before I bought my 2nd snake. The debate between cohabitation and seperating them is just like the frozen/ live feed debate. I am watching for any signs of non acceptance or stressing from doing this. I chose to do it because I felt it best for them. If they were my carpets or gophers or balls I doubt I would do this. Some of the more famous American breeders choose this method. I have another enclosure that I keep my male in when feeding and sometimes the day after. I actually have 1 enclosure and 1 tub for every snake I have so its not to save space.
I still appreciate your comment and after a year or so I will rethink it and post my findings. If it doesn't work out I will seperate them and try again next year.
So boas yes but other breeds no for me anyway.
No disrespect intended here at all , just giving you some background info as to how I came to this decision.

[lady_bug87]

I house my Lacertas together all year I know its different because they're lizards but I figured I would weigh in. If I remove my female for inspection or whatever, my male gets frantic. I moved her out of their enclosure for a couple days, my male refused food which they NEVER do, and he paced back and forth until I put her back. They however do sleep together or she will sit on top of him (she is 1/2 his size)

I dont know if they bond I doubt it I think its more that she is a constant part of his habitat and her not being there stresses him right out.

[aj099]

I agree with Terranaut.

I have co habed my boa`s for quite some time now close to 4 month`s
i check for any sign`s of anything but both snake`s are very healthy eat all the time seperate of course.shed with no problem`s i have plenty of differently basking spot`s and hide`s so they have there choice`s . i have never noticed any sign of agression what so ever.

but am ready to serperate if need be.

[Jay]

Has no one done any research before buying a snake?
Every one who is choosing to keep two snake in one enclosure needs to realize that keeping a solitary animal with another animal is wrong, unless your breeding. Snakes do not cuddle, or play. I hate seeing people asking questions and then ignoring the correct answers.


^^ excludes garters

[Jay]

I agree with Terranaut.

I have co habed my boa`s for quite some time now close to 4 month`s
i check for any sign`s of anything but both snake`s are very healthy eat all the time seperate of course.shed with no problem`s i have plenty of differently basking spot`s and hide`s so they have there choice`s . i have never noticed any sign of agression what so ever.

but am ready to serperate if need be.

Why take the risk and wait until somthing happens?
Are you sure you know what signs you are looking for?
Do you monitor 24/7?
What size is the enclosure?
What is the sex of the snakes?

[Rogue628]

Has no one done any research before buying a snake?
Every one who is choosing to keep two snake in one enclosure needs to realize that keeping a solitary animal with another animal is wrong, unless your breeding. Snakes do not cuddle, or play. I hate seeing people asking questions and then ignoring the correct answers.


^^ excludes garters

I'm guessing unless this happens http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/thamnophis/88181-broke-my-own-rule-almost-lost-2-snakes.html

[Jay]

I'm guessing unless this happens http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/thamnophis/88181-broke-my-own-rule-almost-lost-2-snakes.html

Yes mistakes happen, and Wayne admitted to it in hopes that others will learn from his mistake.

[aj099]

one male one female the enclosure is 6 feet tall 2 and a half wide and deep i will be adding another cabinet the exact same to double it.They have many different space`s to go to.

I have done alot of reading and know alot of people that do this.
i could have built 2 small crappy enclosure`s or 1 awsome one so i went with this.

i look for any sign`s of stress or anything out of the ordinary my snake`s eat every week without a problem seperate. they have regular normal bowl movement`s and shed very regulary.If i were to notice anysign of agression i would seperate imedietly.

[Rogue628]

Yes mistakes happen, and Wayne admitted to it in hopes that others will learn from his mistake.

My point was to prove that even mistakes can happen. I don't own garters but I haven't forgotten the lesson I learned from it

[Jay]

Just seperate them, while they still have a chance. What you are doing is in no way benificial to your snakes. Clearly you have not done all your research. Take your enclosure and lay it on its side so it's six feet long, and then put another on top. I know alot of people who do illegal drugs it does not make it right. Please site your research.

[aj099]

I have talked to plenty of people that have done it without anyproblem
so this is what i choose to do.
i don`t really agree with keeping snake`s in bin`s so i like to give them the most space i can. once finished the cabinet will be 5 feet wide 6 feet tall and almost 3 feet deep.

the snake`s are both under 2 year`s so they will have plenty of room for a long time.

[Jay]

I never said you need to keep them in tubs. If you don't have enough room then don't by large constrictors. I don't know what you keep but it apears that you ate just going to have to learn from your mistakes, hopfully others will learn as well.
They are both Colombians right?

[aj099]

i guess im trying to say that i have seen it done and i have seen it gone wrong.
i choose to keep them together i am very careful and check them regularily if i see any sign`s what so ever i will seperate.i watched them for very long period`s at a time in the begining. and still do pretty regularily i think if they have enough room and double everything they need they will be ok together. and trust me when they get close to 10 feet i will be building somthing much better as needed.

[Jay]

By not answering my question, I'm going to assume they are not both bci's, please tell me I'm wrong.

[aj099]

i assumed you found your Answer. from my other thread. one is a bci colombian and one is a Boa c. occidentalis argentine.

[Jay]

The one thing this reptile community doesn't need is keepers like you who keep their snake however they want regardless of what is best for the snakes. You have yet to produce any research explaining the benifits of keeping solitary creatures together. I can see we are not getting anywhere with this, good luck to you and hopfully one day you will put your needs aside and adress your reptiles needs. :no:

[aj099]

i have never once advised anyone to do this. each time i mentioned i do it i never once said yeah go ahead it`s safe with no problem`s i have said that it is probly not a good idea to do it, but i think under the right condition`s it could be done but i guess i am wrong.

i talked to one women who kept 11 foot argentine boa`s together for year`s since they were young and she had no problem with them.and a few other`s so i was pretty convinced it could happen

But i do truly love my snake`s and i guess i will start planning somthing out tonight.
Thank`s for the reality check. i apologize for my stupidity.

[Caylan]

i have never once advised anyone to do this. each time i mentioned i do it i never once said yeah go ahead it`s safe with no problem`s i have said that it is probly not a good idea to do it, but i think under the right condition`s it could be done but i guess i am wrong.

i talked to one women who kept 11 foot argentine boa`s together for year`s since they were young and she had no problem with them.and a few other`s so i was pretty convinced it could happen

But i do truly love my snake`s and i guess i will start planning somthing out tonight.
Thank`s for the reality check. i apologize for my stupidity.

Kudos. Not stupidity, if you want to be somewhat harsh though ignorant may work. Yes it can be done, usually by very experienced keepers, and with a well known pair and a lot of touch and go it can be done and is practised even, I can admit I've seen it with boa's and also pm'd some boa keepers on other forums about it, and yeah it happens. They seem to be "fine" with it even. But I know for a fact, my snakes "thrive" housed indivdually, and in TUBS! Your snake doesn't actually want you to see it all the time, go figure why it hides all the time... You want to see your snake, open the bin and voila, a close up even... take it out and it's it like 4D or something crazy.... sorry getting sarcastic there. Point is, the snakes will likely do way better or at least signifcantly better, when housed one to a cage. I don't even think many keepers who do cohab their snakes, would deny this. What works for them they must realize probably won't work for others. But its definitely not a beginners technique by any means... Let the snakes grow together outside the cage, explore an entire room, bet they'll each find a spot then. If you can say after years of them being able to get away from eachother they still stay together all the time, then maybe you can take a stab at cohabed housing. I also second laying the 6 foot tall enclosure on its side, 12feet floor space would be much loved by any boa.
Again kudos to the quick awaking, that is soo rarely seen. Caylan.S.

[aj099]

i guess i was really blinded by the dream of it working...

i will be moving soon so these enclosure`s will not be coming with me.
although it is in about 1 year`s time i like to look at these cabinet`s as learning for what i would like to do in the future. both were free so cost is low. i never planed for this to be the final enclosure by all mean`s

And again i would like to apologize for my stuborness.
but i guess the con`s defetly out way the pro`s

so each snake will have a cabinet to live in for 1 year.

then when i am at my new house i will have plenty of room to build 2 huge one`s

[jaleely]

OKay, i didn't even read all of this, and i tried to ignore this post...but seriously....if you feel like you have to justify ANY part of your husbandry, it's probably wrong to begin with. Just pay the bucks, separate the snakes, and any one else putting snakes together...come on, you know better.
I mean, come on.
Is it really necessary? It's like, there is a risk to the pet...so why would you risk it? Because you anthropomorphise the animal and think that IT thinks it needs a cuddle buddy? Good lord people.
Just look up the facts. Your snakes are not the unique snakes in the world that burst the standard and prefer cuddle-buddies.
They want the same space, they do not live together in the wild, they should not be housed together.

[millertime89]

You don't necessarily need to tear apart the encosure, just add a shelf in the middle that completely separates the two. A ceiling/floor.

[shaunyboy]

Has no one done any research before buying a snake?
Every one who is choosing to keep two snake in one enclosure needs to realize that keeping a solitary animal with another animal is wrong, unless your breeding. Snakes do not cuddle, or play. I hate seeing people asking questions and then ignoring the correct answers.


^^ excludes garters

^^^^^
and imo carpets


i keep pairs and SAME sized females together with no problems

i know plenty morelia keepers who do the same

i feed seperately

i seperate at the begining of brumation,then re introduce for breeding

i also remove males from gravid females tanks

cheers shaun

p.s.i don't think snakes cuddle or any off that other crap;)

[Terranaut]

Double post oops

[Terranaut]

This is from one successfull German breeder.


One of the most successful breeders of these animals kept his breeder animals together for 12 months of the year. The male was in the cage even when the female was giving birth to the young.

We are aware of several successful breedings of other species of boas by other breeders that utilized a similar approach. In addition, we are also currently experimenting with a similar and very promising approach ourselves, and are therefore no longer certain that the male and female must be separated outside of the breeding season.

The permanent co-housing has one great advantage: The perfect point in time to introduce both sexes can no longer be missed. This results in neonates and hatchlings that are born at a time of the year, at which they are usually not born at all. This demonstrates that species that are regarded as seasonal (=mating and birth of the young occurs around the same time each year) may become unseasonal in captivity or have always been unseasonal. The belief in seasonality may even be the cause of a lack of successful breedings at times. If the animals are separated during the fertile months in the summer, because the breeder is convinced that fertility is given between October and March only, successful reproduction becomes unlikely.

People who prefer to house the animals separately outside of the mating season (like ourselves until recently) should be aware that it is better to place the female to the male rather than the other way around. As mentioned in an earlier section, the male’s willingness to breed is the bread and butter of successful reproduction. If the male is not motivated, then that’s it. It is therefore recommended to disturb or confuse him as little as possible. The transfer to another enclosure may already eliminate any motivation to mate with a female.

We believe that both separation and permanent co-housing of the two sexes has their own advantages and disadvantages in regard to propagation. Every keeper has to determine his/her own strategy to succeed.


Another

Many people keep pairs together with no problems at all aslong as you know your snakes behaviour and know when one or both arnt happy so you can spot any issues before they arise. I myself montor my boas very closely every day anyway to keep an eye on their health and I have cohabbed before without issue and plan to again in the future with one or 2 pairs. Just make sure you have a spare set up ready incase of needing to split up for any reason. As with everything....some people don't find a problem with it but some people just would never cohabit.

As I said before I only chose this route for my boas and wouldn't with other breeds.
I will post my results after a year. Also to clarify. My viv is plenty big. No temperment changes or any other changes that would lead me to believe this was a bad choice. If after a year I think I was wrong I will post that.




Also the word cuddle was used to express a behavior not a state of being or anything. Quick to judge.... Very slow to listen :(

[BurmeseGuy]

Terranaut, I understand you have your decision, but it really isn't in the snakes' best interest to be housed together year-round. Snakes do not "cuddle" - they might coil together if there is one optimal spot in the cage or for warmth if the cage temps are not high enough, but they do not develop emotional attachment to each other.
Also, from a breeding standpoint....snakes that are housed together permanently are less likely to breed. They seem to get used to one another's presence and it doesn't spark a breeding response even when they are cooled.
If you ask any successful breeder or seasoned keeper, they will tell you it's not a good idea to house two snakes together year-round. It's just not healthy for them long-term.

I read this and it gave me an idea, an idea to do an experiment, so the last 2 days I have moved the hides around from cool spot to warm spot, the two of them get into the same hide every single time and I put both hides next to each other. They both go into the same hide and in the same order every single time, Retic goes in first, then Burm moves in...so in conclusion your theory that it's a "best spot" in the enclosure in my opinion is wrong since no matter where I had the hide they both followed, if anything it's that specific hide that is the "spot" has nothing to do with warm or whatever. I put that hide all over that enclosure, each corner, in the middle, directly under the basking light, next to the water bowl, and every time they both like clockwork followed in line in the exact same hide every time. So in my opinion it is possible for them to have feelings and like cuddling...for example, look at the guy that nursed the Alligator that had been shot in the head, back to health he even attempted to return it to the wild and it followed him back home, he now does attractions where he is in the water with it and they swim together and roll around and play and the alligator actually "hugs" him...the man rubs the alligators tongue and it never shows any signs of aggression, there's video of it somewhere on the net, I'll have to find it, I watched once and it was truly amazing to see...so for me, anything is possible...if an alligator can develop feelings for a human then why couldn't enclosure mates develop feelings for each other, I've heard of people separating snakes after a good part of their lives being spent together and they stop eating or change in temper is noticed, just a thought...I think all living things have to be capable of "feelings" good news for the haters though $8,000.00 was deposited in my account last night and going later today to buy material to build the custom enclosure so they'll be separated in about 4 days...thanks for all the input and great information

[exwizard]

This is from one successfull German breeder.


One of the most successful breeders of these animals kept his breeder animals together for 12 months of the year. The male was in the cage even when the female was giving birth to the young.

We are aware of several successful breedings of other species of boas by other breeders that utilized a similar approach. In addition, we are also currently experimenting with a similar and very promising approach ourselves, and are therefore no longer certain that the male and female must be separated outside of the breeding season.

The permanent co-housing has one great advantage: The perfect point in time to introduce both sexes can no longer be missed. This results in neonates and hatchlings that are born at a time of the year, at which they are usually not born at all. This demonstrates that species that are regarded as seasonal (=mating and birth of the young occurs around the same time each year) may become unseasonal in captivity or have always been unseasonal. The belief in seasonality may even be the cause of a lack of successful breedings at times. If the animals are separated during the fertile months in the summer, because the breeder is convinced that fertility is given between October and March only, successful reproduction becomes unlikely.

People who prefer to house the animals separately outside of the mating season (like ourselves until recently) should be aware that it is better to place the female to the male rather than the other way around. As mentioned in an earlier section, the male’s willingness to breed is the bread and butter of successful reproduction. If the male is not motivated, then that’s it. It is therefore recommended to disturb or confuse him as little as possible. The transfer to another enclosure may already eliminate any motivation to mate with a female.

We believe that both separation and permanent co-housing of the two sexes has their own advantages and disadvantages in regard to propagation. Every keeper has to determine his/her own strategy to succeed.


Another

Many people keep pairs together with no problems at all aslong as you know your snakes behaviour and know when one or both arnt happy so you can spot any issues before they arise. I myself montor my boas very closely every day anyway to keep an eye on their health and I have cohabbed before without issue and plan to again in the future with one or 2 pairs. Just make sure you have a spare set up ready incase of needing to split up for any reason. As with everything....some people don't find a problem with it but some people just would never cohabit.

As I said before I only chose this route for my boas and wouldn't with other breeds.
I will post my results after a year. Also to clarify. My viv is plenty big. No temperment changes or any other changes that would lead me to believe this was a bad choice. If after a year I think I was wrong I will post that.


This is very interesting especially considering my 2 senior Dums that are currently sharing the Neodesha. When we first got them, we kept them together for about 6 months with no issues and Popeye was definitely in his true form being the relentless breeder he is. They did lock up in Nov '10 but a few days later Betty attacked him behaving like she had enough. This is why I am reluctant to keep them together more than only on the weekends.

@ BurmeseGuy...

No one knows your snakes more than you do and if you say they get along together as best buds, then who am I or anyone else to say thats not the case but I will say this. It is highly unusual for a retic and a burm to continue to be together. Even though they are ok together now, chances are that at some point in time, they wont be. Something will happen and one could kill the other. Take this any way you want or disregard, that is your choice because they are your snakes. Im just saying what I would do and that would be to separate them now.

[shaunyboy]

I read this and it gave me an idea, an idea to do an experiment, so the last 2 days I have moved the hides around from cool spot to warm spot, the two of them get into the same hide every single time and I put both hides next to each other. They both go into the same hide and in the same order every single time, Retic goes in first, then Burm moves in...so in conclusion your theory that it's a "best spot" in the enclosure in my opinion is wrong since no matter where I had the hide they both followed, if anything it's that specific hide that is the "spot" has nothing to do with warm or whatever. I put that hide all over that enclosure, each corner, in the middle, directly under the basking light, next to the water bowl, and every time they both like clockwork followed in line in the exact same hide every time. So in my opinion it is possible for them to have feelings and like cuddling...for example, look at the guy that nursed the Alligator that had been shot in the head, back to health he even attempted to return it to the wild and it followed him back home, he now does attractions where he is in the water with it and they swim together and roll around and play and the alligator actually "hugs" him...the man rubs the alligators tongue and it never shows any signs of aggression, there's video of it somewhere on the net, I'll have to find it, I watched once and it was truly amazing to see...so for me, anything is possible...good new for the haters though $8,000.00 was deposited in my account last night and going later today to buy material to build the custom enclosure so they'll be separated in about 4 days...thanks for all the input and great information


reptiles don't feel emotions mate

its all instinct

there brains ain't wired for emotion

cheers shaun

[millertime89]

That's called security, the burm is more insecure so it goes where the 'tic goes. Snakes will find go for security before proper temps, and temps before food. Survival before health.

[BurmeseGuy]

retiles don't feel emotions mate

its all instinct

there brains ain't wired for emotion

cheers shaun

Explain the Alligator and human then man, I've seen it with my own eyes and the video was shot by a spectator...no cgi crap or nothing shot with a regular hand held video recorder you buy at wally world...I do think it's possible man. My 15.5 ft Burmese used to roam my room and even sleep under me in my bed and she didn't mind me moving around on her or nothing, I'm still breathing today, never coiled around my neck and choked me and I could put her around my neck, never was there a need for more than one person whenever I handled her, never not once struck at me (outside of feeding) She WAS a gentle loving giant man no doubt about it. That snake hissed at everyone, especially females and never ever in all the years I had her, not once hissed at me. That snake perked up anytime she "heard" my voice, even if she was sleeping, rubbed me with her tail like it was a hand or arm, so to say that reptiles are incapable of emotion or feeling is inaccurate in my honest opinion

[shaunyboy]

That's called security, the burm is more insecure so it goes where the 'tic goes. Snakes will find go for security before proper temps, and temps before food. Survival before health.

^^^^^
i agree 100%

a snake will pick security over everything else

cheers shaun

[Terranaut]

This is very interesting especially considering my 2 senior Dums that are currently sharing the Neodesha. When we first got them, we kept them together for about 6 months with no issues and Popeye was definitely in his true form being the relentless breeder he is. They did lock up in Nov '10 but a few days later Betty attacked him behaving like she had enough. This is why I am reluctant to keep them together more than only weekends.


All of what I have read has been about BCC orBCI. also my female is only about 30% bigger than my male. First sign of " the nudge" and he is out.

[millertime89]

Dale, that's a security and warmth thing again, humans are impressive heating elements, and under blankets provides a sense of security. As far as the perking up when they sense you specifically are near they could be associating you with food or the ability to get out, explore, exercise, stretch, or eat.

[millertime89]

I'm not saying snakes can't feel emotion, we just have no way of prooving it outside of anecdotal accounts like yours.

[Trent]

Dale, that's a security and warmth thing again, humans are impressive heating elements, and under blankets provides a sense of security. As far as the perking up when they sense you specifically are near they could be associating you with food or the ability to get out, explore, exercise, stretch, or eat.
Burm and a retic I would say FOOD!

[BurmeseGuy]

Yeah Kyle I totally get what your saying and in my life I have had and owned well over 40 different snakes and honestly the relationship I had with the 15.5 ft female Burm, none come close to comparison and the bond between us...I know 100% that it was more than a security thing man, not that anyone wants to know but, I sleep without covers and I certainly didn't cover all of her lol she was 15.5 feet, she and I actually ended up breaking the bed lol with our combined weight...I just have a strong difference of opinion on the subject I guess just from the experience...

[shaunyboy]

Explain the Alligator and human then man, I've seen it with my own eyes and the video was shot by a spectator...no cgi crap or nothing shot with a regular hand held video recorder you buy at wally world...I do think it's possible man. My 15.5 ft Burmese used to roam my room and even sleep under me in my bed and she didn't mind me moving around on her or nothing, I'm still breathing today, never coiled around my neck and choked me and I could put her around my neck, never was there a need for more than one person whenever I handled her, never not once struck at me (outside of feeding) She WAS a gentle loving giant man no doubt about it. That snake hissed at everyone, especially females and never ever in all the years I had her, not once hissed at me. That snake perked up anytime she "heard" my voice, even if she was sleeping, rubbed me with her tail like it was a hand or arm, so to say that reptiles are incapable of emotion or feeling is inaccurate in my honest opinion

alligator knows its secure and identifys the guy as a safe food source

re your 15ft burm
it identified you as a safe place,nothing more

all of the above are animal instincts not emotions

cheers shaun

[infernalis]

I have had snakes eat each other in my own collection.

One time it was a pair of snakes that had been together three years, suddenly one day it just happened.

[exwizard]

I have had snakes eat each other in my own collection.

One time it was a pair of snakes that had been together three years, suddenly one day it just happened.

See now thats what Im afraid of. Juveniles of the same species is one thing but adults or different species?

[BurmeseGuy]

Dale, that's a security and warmth thing again, humans are impressive heating elements, and under blankets provides a sense of security. As far as the perking up when they sense you specifically are near they could be associating you with food or the ability to get out, explore, exercise, stretch, or eat.

I've also caught the Burm sleeping on the top of the hide the Retic is in several times, so idk man, I think they genuinely don't mind the company as far as letting them stay together into adulthood no, I will not be letting that happen. They got roughly 5 more days together, I was ready to get that enclosure and separate them today but with the deposit we're just gonna hold off for a few more days and they'll have their own big gigantic eclsoures lol...I'll post pictures of it in the enclosure section once I finish the whole unit, it will have 5 enclosures on a whole wall unit...and the big guys and girl will be at the bottom

[exwizard]

Nice! Bet that will look awesome! :)

[millertime89]

Good deal, can't wait to see the enclosures.

[BurmeseGuy]

alligator knows its secure and identifys the guy as a safe food source

re your 15ft burm
it identified you as a safe place,nothing more

all of the above are animal instincts not emotions

cheers shaun

I don't know Shaun, then why does the alligator hug the human? lol...just doesn't seem to fit in that neatly descriptive word "identify"

I hug my kids and wife because I love them, not because I "identify" them as humans that co-habit the house I live in.

I believe the possibility is there Shaun like I said I have never had the same kind of bond I had with the 15.5ft Burm, she was like my 5th or 6th snake so it wasn't my "first" snake bond I'm speaking of...I guess you would have had to have been there

[shaunyboy]

I don't know Shaun, then why does the alligator hug the human? lol...just doesn't seem to fit in that neatly descriptive word "identify"

I hug my kids and wife because I love them, not because I "identify" them as humans that co-habit the house I live in.

I believe the possibility is there Shaun like I said I have never had the same kind of bond I had with the 15.5ft Burm, she was like my 5th or 6th snake so it wasn't my "first" snake bond I'm speaking of...I guess you would have had to have been there

you hug your wife and kids because you LOVE them,thats correct

reptiles cannot feel love mate

your attatching human emotion to animal behavoir

humans and reptiles brains are wired completely different,reptile brains are very primative in comparison

re the alligator
so do you think the alligator in question would get jealous if the guy hugged another gator ?

it would not give a crap,all it instinctively cares about is safety,food,water,procreation and survival = basic instincts

cheers shaun

[Trent]

you hug your wife and kids because you LOVE them,thats correct

reptiles cannot feel love mate

your attatching human emotion to animal behavoir

humans and reptiles brains are wired completely different,reptile brains are very primative in comparison

re the alligator
so do you think the alligator in question would get jealous if the guy hugged another gator ?

it would not give a crap,all it instinctively cares about is safety,food,water,procreation and survival = basic instincts

cheers shaun
I am curious.Do you think humans are the only creatures with the ability to love? Say dogs or what have you.
Just asking shaun I agree with what you are saying for the most part.I am just wondering is it always as clear as black and white.

[BurmeseGuy]

you hug your wife and kids because you LOVE them,thats correct

reptiles cannot feel love mate

your attatching human emotion to animal behavoir

humans and reptiles brains are wired completely different,reptile brains are very primative in comparison

re the alligator
so do you think the alligator in question would get jealous if the guy hugged another gator ?

it would not give a crap,all it instinctively cares about is safety,food,water,procreation and survival = basic instincts

cheers shaun

Yes but then I guess if the guy was going to be attacked by another alligator and the "hugger" killed the other one it's just protecting his safe food source? That's a load of rubbish in my opinion...everything on earth is primative even we as humans don't use our whole brain power...so to say kind of, I could very well hug my wife because she keeps a roof over my head...and I identify her as a means for me to survive and stay warm, I just don't think that the whole reptile thing is so extreme black and white...I believe there is gray in everything

[Jenn_06]

as of right now i have 2 pairs of snakes that share cages, but its because they are breeding, the BP are 5 days in 3 days our and my boas are 7 days in 3 days out, and when i do that im scared out of my mind checking on them every hour during the day, anything can happen. breeding is the only time i have snakes sharing a care.

[aj099]

Hey .
I really thought the snake`s could live together watching them
it seem`s to me that they like the company.
I have 3 different hide`s all around the exact same temp.
a few diffrent basking spot`s around the same temp.
Yet they alway`s seem to be in the same spot.

often curled up together and no i wont use the word cuddle.
but it does seem like this.

But all in all what i have come to realize is that.There is a chance of canibalism and i am not willing to risk that for anything.

I own piranah one of the most highly canibalistic fish.
These fish even though being highly canibalistic.feel more secure with other piranah around.Aslong as they are well fed and under the right condition`s these fish will thrive.

But i guess we can`t really compare fish with reptile`s

[millertime89]

You can't, most piranhas are schooling fish. If you go look in the wild there are very few snakes are social animals and most will never be found one with another.

[aj099]

Yeah i knew i couldn`t compare the 2 just sayin is all.

[millertime89]

Yup, I understand.

[Trent]

Hey .
I really thought the snake`s could live together watching them
it seem`s to me that they like the company.
I have 3 different hide`s all around the exact same temp.
a few diffrent basking spot`s around the same temp.
Yet they alway`s seem to be in the same spot.

often curled up together and no i wont use the word cuddle.
but it does seem like this.

But all in all what i have come to realize is that.There is a chance of canibalism and i am not willing to risk that for anything.

I own piranah one of the most highly canibalistic fish.
These fish even though being highly canibalistic.feel more secure with other piranah around.Aslong as they are well fed and under the right condition`s these fish will thrive.

But i guess we can`t really compare fish with reptile`s
If you are refering to red bellied piranhas.They are a schooling fish.They do not live on their own.They are not just highly predatory fish they eat everything including plants and nuts.Also even well fed red bellies will one day turn on a tankmate and eat him.Its not a question of if,its a question of when. ;)

[aj099]

yes i know this haha.very well said they are very cool fish to have.
They truly act like a wolf pack.

[totheend]

News Page 3 | Stöckl - Die Nr.1 Boa constrictor Seite im Internet (http://www.boa-constrictors.com/en/news_and_infos/boa_news_infos_page_3)

[Valvaren]

I just want to say one thing that someone already said here.

If there is a risk that it can affect your animals health, can affect them mentally or physically through stress or injury. Even if it is just a small risk, a simple risk that you cannot predict, why would you do it.

If you love these animals and know that by housing them together there is even a .0005 chance something would happen why would you if housing them alone held no risk.

We don't always get along with other humans and when something happens we like to be away from each other, what if something happen that one of yours snake got aggressive, where would the other go? Who is to say you would be home or even in the room while one of your snake attacked the other.

We have these animals as 'pets' with the promise we will do anything and everything in our power to give them the best possible home. By housing two solitary animals together we are breaking that promise to them and as far as i'm concerned any one who does that doesn't deserve the right to have the animals in the first place.

[Lankyrob]

I ignored advice about separating my corns couple of years back, it just so happens i was present when one of them decided to attack the other and i was able to separate them with no injury to either. They had been living together "happily" with no signs of stress or bother for six months before this occurred.

Now, i would never take the risk ever again.

[Caylan]

The 'tic is going to want some space sooner or later, and a burm wouldn't take much "guff" from a skinny little 'tic, so thats when the fight would likely ensue. This goes for all snakes in my opinion, so best give everyone some time and space to themselves. Theres no saying they can't interact outside the cage with supervision. Heck, even I don't live at my friends house just because I feel safer with friends. Nope I go home and get some space and learn how to live independently so to speak. But I can still always go visit my buds when ever I want. Same for snakes in the same house really. It's easier even and always should be supervised done that way, and you can still experience their social behaviours together, while still giving them time to themselves, make sense?? Probably the most effective way to do with a retic and a burm, and most snakes in general I'd say. Like said above, with a 0.0005% cahnce of anything bad happening, I can't and won't take that risk. Housed one per cage there is no risk. I like those odds...
But feel free to have both out in the same room together for a bit each day, let them see eachother if you want, odds are they will get older and bigger and harder to handle one at a time let alone 2, but thats in your court. But house them separately, so the one thats getting clinged onto can have some space at least. Rambled enough, go on about your day. Caylan.S.