Captive bred VS wild caught

[Wolfus_305]

Hey everybody,

So a while back I was in a pet store in london and happened to look at their Red Eyed Tree Frogs, they were all bruised up and didn't look that great. My boyfriend later found out that these frogs were wild caught.

He already has a captive bred RETF (kiwi) and we would like to get kiwi a friend. We both would like kiwi to have a captive bred friend but I am just curious to know what the pros/cons are of wild caught vs captive bred

[youngster]

WC can have diseases and parasites. And *usually* more docile

[BarelyBreathing]

The only pros of wild caught are new blood lines and less money

Cons:
Parasites
Diseases
Possible exposure to chitrid or other fungus
Stress from shipping
Stress from being in a captive environment
Sometimes they don't recognise common sources of food as such
No background knowledge
Long quarantine periods
Little idea of age

I'm sure the list can go on forever.

[Wolfus_305]

The wild caught ones are usually more docile? I wonder why, if anything I would have thought it would be less docile.

mhmm parasites and diseases don't sound too good and judging by that pet store's cleanliness and the state of their reptile/amphibians I doubt they would have cleared up any of that

[alessia55]

The wild caught ones are usually more docile? I wonder why, if anything I would have thought it would be less docile.

mhmm parasites and diseases don't sound too good and judging by that pet store's cleanliness and the state of their reptile/amphibians I doubt they would have cleared up any of that

I think Eli meant to say LESS docile :hmm:

[BarelyBreathing]

Yeah, I would agree with Alessia, I think he meant less docile.

[BarelyBreathing]

They also tend to make less interesting display animals, as they hide more.

[youngster]

I did mean less docile :wacky:

[DragonsEye]

They also tend to be less healthy due to the stress of capture, importation, and being wild animals suddenly in a much more restricted environment. As a result of the raised stress, detrimental effects of diseases and internal parasites become even more pronounced (not unlike how we often find ourselves becoming sick more easily when we are under a lot of stress). Because of this and the other factors folks mentioned, WC animals tend to die at a much earlier age than CB.

[DavethePython]

My personal opinion is that captive bred is the way to go. There are ample breeders throughout the world now that wild animals should not need to be taken from their environment. I do however support the trade in wild caught if the animals in question are an invasive species such as the Burmese Pythons or Green Iguanas in Florida .Would rather see them go to a good home than killed because they are somewhere they don't know they should not be. Hate to see an animal suffer because humans screwed up again. Just my opinion .

[Terranaut]

Yup. No need for wild unless it's to introduce new genes. Only a breeder should be looking at wild caught and certainly not a pet store. Is there not a local breeder you can buy from. Actually I wanna get a couple of these too. Way cute. no WC for us.

[Wolfus_305]

wow, thanks everybody for all your comments. I knew that there were issues with WC but didn't think of health issues being more pronounced due to stress and some of the other suggestions.

We have always been 10000% for captive bred for our own collections, I was just curious if there were pros/cons to WC that I didn't know of.

Mhmm I thought it was odd that a pet store would have wild caught. they looked awful, I'm guessing they just got them in when I was there because the poor froggies were black and blue with bruises.

I think there is a reptile expo near us in May so we will probably look there or go back to the store we got kiwi at

[Terranaut]

March 6 in Missisauga

[SpOoKy]

I think there is a reptile expo near us in May so we will probably look there or go back to the store we got kiwi at

Feb 26 in Etobicoke :)
Ontario Reptile & Exotic Pet Expo (http://www.reptileexpo.ca/)

[Terranaut]

Yup. Website still has last years date :(

[SpOoKy]

Yup. Website still has last years date

??? all the dates are for 2012.
Not sure i understand what you mean, sorry

[Terranaut]

I googled "reptile expo ontario" and the page still had march 6 as a date which was last year. Yours is current thanks!! I'll be there:)

[dshin963]

I'll be there :D

[SpOoKy]

So will I...we should all meet up :)

[Wolfus_305]

I really want to go, that's just at the end of my reading week and I don't know if i'm coming back to school that day or the next.

I agree though, we should all meet up, that would be neat

I've never been to the expo before because i'm always busy when they have it so i really hope I can go... I really hope I can control myself and not buy too much

[Will0W783]

In my opinion, it's always better to opt for a captive bred and born specimen whenever possible. For some species, people have not established many (or any) successful captive lines, so wild-caught may be the only type available. In these cases, one has to carefully consider the natural environment of the species and how closely you can replicate it. You also have to consider the natural diet, natural range and activity level of the species.

Wild-caught reptiles and amphibians have, in the majority of cases, undergone extreme stresses. Field collectors are not always kind or gentle, and often hundreds of animals are caught in nets or traps and then piled up in small, cramped, filthy quarters while awaiting shipment. Many die and their rotting corpses just sink to the bottom of the pile of animals, festering and decomposing while other live animals crawl over them. The amount of disease, infection, and the risk of animals attacking each other is massive here. The trip overseas is rarely any better- specimens are packaged as many to a container as possible, and suffer changes in climate, air, humidity, everything...as they travel. Many more die on the trip overseas, and again their bodies just lie there until the shipment reaches its destination. At this point, the surviving animals' immune systems are overloaded, and any parasites can take control and wreak havoc. Bruises and cuts are more likely to be infected. The animals are often really dehydrated and malnourished.

Wild-caught specimens do often carry a lower price tag- this is because they are plentiful in the wild and the sellers have not had to invest money in lineage, breeding supplies, or their time and effort to breed parents and raise babies. However, that initial lower price tag is deceptive. ANY and ALL wild-caught reptiles should have a stool sample sent to a qualified herp vet for parasite testing. Expect to have to treat for a month or more with deworming medications and antibiotics. You will have to inspect the animals for ticks and mites, and initial quarantine must be impeccable and rigorous.

I try to always buy quality captive-bred specimens whenever possible. That being said, I do have several long-term captive snakes that were healthy and established when I purchased them. These animals are thriving for me, and are very enjoyable specimens. They were not available in Cb or Cbb. Upon arrival, I treated with a course of Nix for mites, Panacur and Flagyl for parasites and Amikacin. I have file snakes that have been doing wonderfully- they are tame, curious active little snakes and are some of my favorites; however, if I'd been able to find them in CB I would have spent the extra money.

[Wolfus_305]

Wow, Kimberly that sounds awful!

We have always wanted to go captive bred but I had to give in to my curiousity as to why this pet store had wild caught, why it might be beneficial for them etc

It's a good point you make about the lower price tag being deceiving unfortunately i didn't get a glimpse of the price of these guys just for curiousity sake

[Will0W783]

Pet stores in general will buy from the cheapest supplier they can find. I'm not saying ALL pet stores do this, but in most cases it is beneficial to them, from a purely business standpoint, to buy as cheaply as possible and sell for the most they can, in order to eke as much profit from each sale as they can. It's how they operate, and it's understandable, although not great for the animals or the people who buy from pet stores. I no longer buy reptiles from pet stores...at all. I used to occasionally buy a snake or two from this big store in Lancaster called That Pet Place, as their reptiles were always healthy and set up well, albeit overpriced. However, about two years ago I saw a bunch of staff teasing a stressed scrub python with a balloon until the snake struck it and blew up the balloon in its face. The idiot frat boy douches were laughing their heads off about it, and I let loose on them. I screamed at them and demanded a manager. I pitched a royal fit in the middle of the store, telling all the customers what the staff was doing to the poor snake until the manager came and scolded them. Since then, I will not buy another snake from there. I do not and cannot condone that kind of behavior.

However, most chains like Petsmart and Petco buy cheap imported ball pythons and boas, or farm bred ones. I have seen filthy enclosures, bad sheds, dehydrated, underfed animals, rampant respiratory infections, and all manner of other crap that made me sick. Truth is, most chain pet stores do not ensure that their staff are knowledgeable on every animal they sell. They just make sure the staff can parrot off care sheet information to buyers and load people up with way more supplies than they will ever need.

[Will0W783]

I do think there are times when wild-caught and long-term captive animals are not entirely bad. I will however, only buy from people I know and trust, and I examine anything wild-caught with a sharp eye. The usual spots to check on ANY snake or reptile are the chin (for mites), the eyes (should be clear and bright and not have any caps stuck), the overall body for stuck shed areas, the weight, and the cloacal vent (should be clean and closed completely when the reptile is at rest). With wild-caught these exams are even more crucial. I once bought a supposedly acclimated Spilotes without examining its cloaca. The snake drank for a good five minutes straight when I got it home (first red flag) and then passed a copious amount of green and grey sand with flecks of urate in it (second red flag). It refused food the next day and refused to use its hide box, and was dead within 20 hours of arrival. The seller gave me a run-around about a refund and was a general scumbag to deal with after the animal's death. Had I done more research on the seller before buying, and more thoroughly examined the animal prior to accepting it, I could have avoided a lot of heartbreak. It was not an expensive snake, but it lost its life, and that is a steep price to pay. The Spilotes I currently have was imported as a baby, and was owned by a reptile veterinarian. She was given Flagyl, ivermectin, and vitamins when he got her, and was acclimated slowly and carefully. She is a beautiful, healthy snake at 8 feet long now, and I have had her for 1.5 years myself. She is not very handleable, as is common with wild-caught, but she is active, curious and appears to have adjusted to captivity well. I also have a West African file snake (I had a pair, but the male passed two months ago). I purchased them 3 years ago as fresh imports from Outback Reptiles. When I got them home, both were given Panacur, Amikacin, treated for mites and examined for ticks, and given dilute Pedialyte for hydration. After the course of Panacur, I had the stools tested for remaining parasites and they came back clean. They were docile, curious, very personable snakes, and the female is still thriving. They were $25 each, but after the vet bills, testing and medications needed to ensure they had the best chance of thriving, they cost more along the lines of $80 each. This is the norm for properly dealing with imported snakes....you cannot skimp on initial care and parasite medication, or you likely won't have a snake for very long. So in the long-run, it's better for wild populations, the individual animals' health, and your pocketbook if you spend the time and money for captive bred and born. :-)

Frequent reptile expos and online classifieds rather than pet stores. :)

[Wolfus_305]

That sounds awful about the way they are treating their animals, but you can see it across the spectrum with dirty dog cages and bird cages too. I think it's awfully sad that people like to go into the store to look at puppies in filthy cages.

There was a pet store that opened across the street from my house and the guy was wonderful, i admit at first he looked pretty scary to me (as I was younger and he was covered in tattoos and piercings and very tall) but he really knew everything about animals and you could tell he cared. he was always taking in new animals and he looked after them all wonderfully and would tell you what you don't need and only tell you what you did need and he was a very nice guy. unfortunately he got into business with a nasty guy who basically took all his money, kicked him out of the store, tried to run the store but i found him quite rude as he called me an "idiot" when i asked to see the furminator brush for dogs. I told him, "I just want to see it, i'm not buying it but there is no need to call me an idiot" and I left. shortly thereafter the store closed and is now a 24/7 pizza pool bar chicken wings place.

The guy who was originally in that store has tried working at other pet stores but he never lasts long because he can't stay quiet when he sees somebody doing something incorrect or animals not being properly taken care of.

There used to be a pet store at my cottage and if you had to get rid of an animal they would take it and try to sell it for you. That's how we go our beardie and he lived for probably 10+ years after we got him. Same pet store I bought a snake they had, it was a corn snake that was black and white and grey and had circles down it's back and sort of looked like a cow so i called him "Moo". He died within 2 weeks and that was it for me and pet stores. I was devastated.