Stargazing?

[FangsAnarchy]

so we recently discovered our red tailed boa has mites. We are treating the mites and taking all the right steps. Our husbandry is what it should be and he was quarenteened and checked. I don't know why we didn't notice them but for whatever reason we didn't. He wasn't soaking, he was a healthy eater, he was active and a good weight. Then my fiance noticed something on his hand after handling him. we treated the others just in case. This is my first boa and I never heard of stargazing and have never had mites. He seems to have a mild case and we are taking him to the vet incase it is not related to the mites. The snake has been inactive lately and refused his meal twice. I have read some cases of stargazing cannot be fixed and the snake should just be put down. At what point is it not in his best interest to keep fighting? I am not the selfish person who will not be able to, I am also ok with paying whatever it takes. My animals are my children and I just want to know when enough is enough and how bad it could get. Any advice or guidence would be very helpful.

[alessia55]

How often and for how long is he star gazing? Star gazing is OK if they do it infrequently and for short moments (like 10 or so minutes or less). Is he star gazing for upwards of 20mins? To be clear, star gazing is when they look completely upwards towards the ceiling/sky and don't budge.

[theapexgerman]

stargazing is untreatable no cure i have herd of it happen to a buddy of my breeder best thing to do is put down the snake sad to say but it's right thing to do

[theapexgerman]

How often and for how long is he star gazing? Star gazing is OK if they do it infrequently and for short moments (like 10 or so minutes or less). Is he star gazing for upwards of 20mins? To be clear, star gazing is when they look completely upwards towards the ceiling/sky and don't budge.
also they wont be able to strike at there meal's stop eating and wont move a lot like twitching

[alessia55]

Here's a video of a boa that's star gazing and doesn't react when the owner waves his hand in front of her:

L-BPCqcUEmM

[alessia55]

also they wont be able to strike at there meal's stop eating and wont move a lot like twitching

Stargazing, along with refusing to eat and twitching are signs of IBD. Stargazing is a symptom, not a disease on its own... as far as I understand it (that's how it's been explained to me).

[youngster]

Is it impacting quality of life?
If not I don't see why euthanasia would make sense... :confused:

Or am I just being clueless? 'Cause that's very possible.

[theapexgerman]

hmmm i got book here somewhere that has a article of stargazing let me find it

[FangsAnarchy]

It is a symptom and we are not sure of the cause yet. We are taking him to the vet. With the mites being eradicated if that was the cause he shouldn't get worse. It is something that inhibits the CNS. Currently he only does it for less than a minute and he moves back and forth. He reacts to things infront of his face and has only refused two meals which I could chalk up to hybernation. My animals are my kids so I do have a tendancy to over worry. If he stopped eating I would know it was time. As far as I have read stargazing does not cause pain, in all honesty I am not sure what it does other than inhibit the CNS and that may or may not be painful. Right now it is VERY mild. I doubt it can be reversed but depending on the cause it might not get worse? please let me know if I am wrong... Or if you have anything else I missed. I guess since he doesn't do it for over 10mins it is still mild.

[theapexgerman]

i found the book you local library should have it BARNES & NOBLE | Snakes by Russ Case, BowTie Inc. (http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/snakes-russ-case/1101240839) it has a section on just on mite's and stargazzing and ibd

[BarelyBreathing]

If it does have IBD, it can actually be passed to the rest of your collection via mites. If you have a mite on you that you don't notice, and you handle another boa or a python, you have a serious problem on your hands. The problem with IBD is it's VERY difficult to diagnose while the snake is still alive. It's a very scary disease that wipes out whole collections.

[theapexgerman]

the book I'm reading witch is the one i posted has a good section on this and also other kind's of problems i rented years ago at my library and never gave it back XD

[theapexgerman]

and the worst part is it only effects boids all other's are safe

[totheend]

What did you use to get rid of the mites? How old is the boa?

[Will0W783]

As others have mentioned, stargazing can be a sign of IBD. IBD (boid inclusion body disease) is a retrovirus much like AIDS in humans. However, in booid snakes, IBD is always fatal. It can spread via bodily secretions, so strict quarantine and exceptional personal hygiene and imperative to lower its risk of spreading. IBD is, unfortunately, most commonly spread through the snake mite. The mite bites an infected snake and gets a belly full of contaminated blood, then bites another snake. When it bites the next snake, some of the blood in its belly is mixed with the fresh blood and therefore the second snake can become infected. Since mites are small and travel far, they can spread a disease through an entire collection in days. I'm really hoping you don't have IBD- it's not very common, but it is utterly devastating.

So let's figure out what else it could be. What did you use to treat the mites? Improperly used pest strips or sevendust can cause neurological symptoms in snakes. These can sometimes be reversible if the exposure was not terribly severe. Anemia (also caused by mites) can lead to neurological problems if severe enough. Kidney failure can cause stargazing as it poisons the body with toxins (I had that happen to a boa of mine). And other viruses like paramyxovirus and West Nile virus can cause similar symptoms to IBD- although neither are treatable in snakes.

You definitely need to get your boa to a qualified reptile vet, who is up to date on current IBD research. In the meantime, move the boa to a separate room, and change your clothes after you work with it before working with any of your other snakes. You should also wear disposable rubber gloves with the boa, and throw them out before leaving the room. This way you can reduce the spread of body secretions. I am not aware of any really accurate test that can be done on a snake for IBD while it is alive. The only definitive test is a necropsy of brain tissue, where they look for "inclusion bodies." These are tangles of proteins much like what is seen in human Alzheimer's patients and are believed to be the cause of the neurological aspects of IBD. However, a good vet will take a case history, speak to you about the snake's symptoms, all aspects of your husbandry, any chemical exposure that could have happened, etc.

Some good reading for you, just so you can know what *might* be going on. Don't panic yet, as it's not a definite, but every keeper of boas and pythons should be knowledgeable on IBD and paramyxovirus.

Inclusion Body Disease (http://www.anapsid.org/ibd.html)
Symptoms for Inclusion Body Disease in Snakes (http://www.reptilechannel.com/reptile-health/snake-health/snake-inclusion-body-disease.aspx)
Paramyxovirus and Reptiles (http://www.anapsid.org/paramyxovirus.html)
Ophidian Paramyxovirus information - Aussie Pythons & Snakes (http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/general-reptile-discussion-42/ophidian-paramyxovirus-information-44092/)

Best of luck, we'll all be hoping for the best for you. Keep us posted please!

[Will0W783]

and the worst part is it only effects boids all other's are safe

Actually, this isn't entirely true. Colubrid snakes (kingsnakes and corns) have been found to be able to carry the disease without showing clinical signs. However, they can transmit it to other snakes. It is generally not fatal to the colubrids though.

Furthermore, IBD/BOID has been found to be lethal to Crotalids (pitvipers). I can't find the link right now, but when I was having an IBD scare in my collection (turned out to be a blood clot in the snake's brain), I read a LOT on the subject. I remember reading that a collection of carpet pythons, red-tailed boas, and rattlesnakes all succumbed.

Any time that IBD/BOID is even slightly suspected in a collection, the animals should be quarantined and the entire collection put into "lockdown"- no new animals in, no animals sold/traded away- until the issue has been resolved. A confirmed case of IBD requires the collection to be in lockdown until 1 year after the last symptomatic animal has died. It's really not a fun scenario.

[theapexgerman]

Actually, this isn't entirely true. Colubrid snakes (kingsnakes and corns) have been found to be able to carry the disease without showing clinical signs. However, they can transmit it to other snakes. It is generally not fatal to the colubrids though.

Furthermore, IBD/BOID has been found to be lethal to Crotalids (pitvipers). I can't find the link right now, but when I was having an IBD scare in my collection (turned out to be a blood clot in the snake's brain), I read a LOT on the subject. I remember reading that a collection of carpet pythons, red-tailed boas, and rattlesnakes all succumbed.

Any time that IBD/BOID is even slightly suspected in a collection, the animals should be quarantined and the entire collection put into "lockdown"- no new animals in, no animals sold/traded away- until the issue has been resolved. A confirmed case of IBD requires the collection to be in lockdown until 1 year after the last symptomatic animal has died. It's really not a fun scenario.
could you find that link i wanna read it

[Swany]

^ This is why I love this forum, experienced members take the time to help out us noobs. :-)

[Will0W783]

Here is the link to a paper on IBD in palm pitvipers. I know that it has also been seen in rattlesnakes.

A disease resembling inclusion body disea... [J Vet Diagn Invest. 2001] - PubMed - NCBI (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11243371)

[shaunyboy]

and the worst part is it only effects boids all other's are safe


IBD will kill a carpet python within 4 weeks of being exposed to the disease mate

i've heard of boa importers throwing a carpet in with new arrivals to see if the disease is present

boa's are asymptomatic carriers of the disease,they can carry the disease with no ill effect,and show no signs of it

cheers shaun

[theapexgerman]

that article was pretty good willow boa's are carrier's but they can die from it as much as a python can

[FangsAnarchy]

Both the Sand Boa and the Red tailed boa passed. They were both properly kept away from eachother and when we noticed the mites everybody was treated with Jurrasi mite. We have PAM on order somewhere in the mail to treat everyone. They are all in quarenteen. Everything has been treated and bleached and washed like all the things I read on mites. Thank you all for the help. I am not sure what caused the deaths and no vet in the area is willing to look at a dead animal. I am considering sending the corn 2 rats and milk snake to another location. I know it should only effect boids and both boas are now gone. I am not sure which one brought it in but we are waiting a year or longer to bring in any new boas or pythons. The king snake is with me in my room so he is safe. The remaining snakes have an appointment with a vet just in case. I am not sure what good it will do but I just want to make sure it isn't something else.
I am assuming the red tail brought it in. We got him from an exotic pet store in charlotte. They had good reveiws and we are new to the area. The reptile room was not well kept and so we were really careful. He wasn't introduced into the area with the others for an extended amount of time. They asked us to sign a paper saying we bought the animal as is and they would not garuntee it for any amount of time. That raised a red flag but the reveiws were glowing and I had been wanting a red tail for some time.
The Sandboa was bought at a chain petstore. They told us to feed him minnows and keep him on calcium sand. I switched him to fake sand that is really wood with sand texture. They garunteed him for 30 days. We kept him seperate from the then small collection. I didn't see any mites on him, the red tail seemed to become infested over night.

[totheend]

I think the star gazing has something to do with the mite treatment.....

Sorry just read the most recent post. I take back the above statement as I don't know what is in that mite treatment.

[theapexgerman]

even the owner's of the store you got the red tail from could of posted good reviews a bought them self did the store look nasty or dirty cage's etc?

[Will0W783]

May I ask where you live? My veterinarian (SE Pennsylvania) is well-known along the east coast for his expertise in herp medicine. I can't believe vets in your area won't send tissue out for a necropsy- that sounds really lousy to me, and I'd be looking for a new vet ASAP.

When dealing with a reptile vet, you want someone who is willing to run tests both before and after the animal's passing to ensure you can get answers. If you live on the east coast, you can PM me and I can pass along my veterinarian's information. He might be able to help you, or direct you to someone in your area that he knows and trusts.

Waiting one year is definitely in order- I'm so very sorry that you have to be facing these issues. Losing pets is hard enough; not knowing the cause and fearing for your others is just awful. I've been there, and it's a hard place. If there's anything I can do to help, let me know.

Although, something in your above post caught my eye as to a potential reason for your sand boa's issues: the pet store told you to feed a sand boa minnows???? That's insane! Sand boas are rodent eaters- they are native to desert climates, so how would they ever come into contact with fish in the wild? I am not blaming you; I am furious at the pet store for giving you that misinformation. It is quite likely that the sand boa succumbed to nutritional imbalances- minnows can contain quite high levels of thiaminase and mercury, both of which can wreak havoc on a snake's vitamin absorption. Vitamin B deficiency in snakes can cause neurological issues and a rapid decline, but can usually be corrected with a diet change and a series of B-vitamin/calcium injections. Sand is also a horrendous substrate for snakes, as it tends to get lodged in their cloaca and can cause impaction if ingested. I've seen many snakes suffer from scale rot, intestinal damage and death after being housed on sand. Aspen for dry-climate species, and cypress mulch or peat for humid-climate species is much more appropriate.

The only commonly kept snake that eats fish that I am aware is the garter snake. Some snakes (kingsnakes, vine snakes, cat-eyed snakes) will eat lizards and frogs naturally, and can be tough to feed on rodents. But there is no python or boa that should ever be fed fish- they are all rodent/chick-eaters. In the future, for the safety of your pets, I'd recommend doing a thorough species research before purchasing any animal. Many pet stores have no idea what they are doing with reptiles, and pass along inaccurate or even dangerous information. Knowing about the species you are interested in allows you to evaluate how that particular store is doing care-wise and whether you should buy from them. NEVER buy an animal from a dirty store or from a store that has sickly-looking reptiles. The same holds true at reptile expos. I will look at ALL the animals on a seller's table, and if any look questionable, I will not buy from that seller, regardless of how good their prices or selection is. It's too big a risk to the animals that are already in my care and depend on me for their safety. Unfortunately, you can't be too careful these days. If I'd seen a reptile room not well-kept in a pet store, that would have been an instant red flag for me to go elsewhere. There are so many excellent breeders in the country these days- why risk questionable pet store stock? Also, the prices of snakes at pet stores are usually ridiculously marked up compared to the market value of the animal at shows or online.

[Will0W783]

Mites reproduce exceptionally fast- if you brought the red tail in with a single mite or two, they could expand to a huge infestation within a few days. I don't recommend the Jurassi Mite. I've never heard of it, but it sounds like the Zoo-Med spray that just kills the adults on contact. PAM is an excellent treatment, but must be used very carefully as it's toxic to the snakes to some degree. I personally use Nix, and love it. I've had one bad outbreak and Nix took care of it in one treatment cycle. I now spray all new snakes and snakes returning from shows with Nix for one treatment in quarantine. New snakes are quarantined for 3 months (hots, colubrids) or 6 months for boids (3 months after any signs of illness have cleared up if a problem occurs). Unfortunately, boas can carry IBD for years without showing signs- some never become visibly ill; others will succumb after a period of stress such as a move or respiratory infection.

Your kingsnake should be fine- IBD killing a colubrid is very rare, but you need to have the tissue from your dead snakes examined by a lab. You need to find a vet who will run the tests for you so you can know if your other snakes are safe. If your kingsnake becomes a carrier for IBD, no python/boa ever brought into your collection while the king is there is safe.
Again, I'm not saying you definitely were dealing with IBD- it could be from poor husbandry on the part of the stores where you got the snakes; but the stargazing, refusing food, along with the evidence of mite infestation, is a big red flag. Did both snakes show the same symptoms prior to death?

[Will0W783]

@ swany ^ This is why I love this forum, experienced members take the time to help out us noobs. :-)

We're a community of reptile-lovers; what good is anyone's knowledge if they don't share it? At least that's how I feel- I had some really awesome people sharing their experience with me when I was just starting out; it would be selfish and cruel of me not to try to do the same. :)

[FangsAnarchy]

@Willow, thank you that helps. I know sand boas don't eat fish. I assume people don't know what they are talking about at petstores and do research on my own. He was on a diet of only rodents. I rolled my eyes at the girl who told me to feed him fish. I think I know the vet in PA you are talking about. I brought my green Iguana to one and they were fantastic but now I live in the south now. If I freeze the animal would it damage the tissue too much? My fiance and I live in different states. The rat snakes, corn snake, and milk were near the boa. No one else has mites. The king snake was never in the same state as the boa so he shouldn't be a carrier. I am researching IBD right now and looking for a vet willing to do tests within a three hour drive. I am also researching Nix treatments. Jurassi is all natural and is made of oils and what not. One person said to allow the animal to ingest it which I know is wrong. This is why I came here. You can't trust everything you read online. I don't know what to do about the pet store either. If the red tail brought it in then that would mean their entire collection is infected. They had a breeding pair of Red Tails on sight. They used a rack system but it looked dirty and I questioned the care. I kept him seperate knowing he might be sick but I had never had mites before and had never heard of IBD until now so I am learning a lot. I've kept snakes for over 10 years and I know how I was keeping them was right and how I was feeding them was right. I research every species before I buy have the set up before I bring it home, have plans in place to not transmit disease and have emergency vet cash set aside. I am freaking out that there is so much I didn't know to look for because I read a ton. I know I don't know everything but I thought I knew enough to not let all of them be put in danger. Everyone can always learn something, I am just so mad at myself for having to learn about IBD the hard way