The one and ONLY python BAN thread (HR511)

[stephanbakir]

I'm so pissed right now I'm about to explode.

God I'm pissed... I hate it when brainless ******** use their majority votes to rape the minorities... and what I hate more is that we had at least 1 MILLION reptile owners and enthusiasts living in the united states, and 25000 of those ****ers couldnt sign a damn 10 second paper to protect what they love. **** em.

We don't have enough people in the reptile hobby to get careless, when something like this happens, you need to call EVERYONE you know to sign this... Do you think the govt cares if every person who signs that paper owns or even gives a crap? hell no. They only care about majority votes... to them the number of votes represents how much fear goes into their carecup! if we don't give it our all we ALL lose.

What they need to understand is that its a slippery slope.. Once those assholes get the taste for banning ****, its only a matter of time before they start banning bearded dragons, geckos and toilet paper...

If something is worth fighting for, its worth giving it 100% of your effort, winning by 1 vote means you've won THIS time, if you win by a landslide you've not only won this battle, but you can be sure those politicians will skip putting their tails between their legs, its going right up their ***..

What pisses me right off, is that I've gotten about 15 American reptile enthusiasts message me on facebook in the last 10 minutes asking me why I'm pissed. They had no clue there was a ban in effect even though at least 100 people I know were spamming that **** daily telling them to sign...
WHAT THE ****....

I know the font is off, I know my spelling sucks, I know a few words are inappropriate but I hope the forum will bleep those out, I'm too pissed to care right now...

The ONLY good news in that entire article is
"Reptile breeders, dealers, researchers and exhibitors also can continue operating under a separate permit program, as long as they agree to strict storage and transport rules."

Keep in mind that we have not yet lost this yet, we will know soon, but the fact that it came as close as it did means people didnt try... not saying that you guys didnt... but damn... with millions of reptile owners, and their millions of friends... almost failing to get 25000 signatures screams that there was a colossal lack of effort on our parts.

Read more here: U.S. set to approve python ban - Miami-Dade - MiamiHerald.com (http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/01/16/2592593/us-set-to-approve-python-ban.html#storylink=cpy)

[theapexgerman]

yea i did my part but some people's i guess don't care if they lose there reptile's

[red ink]

I feel for you guys I trully do, but this bit has to be a good thing right?

Last year, the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission effectively banned personal ownership of Burmese pythons and seven other constrictors as pets. Snakes whose owners had obtained $100 annual licenses and implanted them with microchips before July 2010 were grandfathered in. Reptile breeders, dealers, researchers and exhibitors also can continue operating under a separate permit program, as long as they agree to strict storage and transport rules.

[Strutter769]

This makes me feel sad....and angry......and helpless.... and very, very small.

[stephanbakir]

I feel for you guys I trully do, but this bit has to be a good thing right?

Last year, the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission effectively banned personal ownership of Burmese pythons and seven other constrictors as pets. Snakes whose owners had obtained $100 annual licenses and implanted them with microchips before July 2010 were grandfathered in. Reptile breeders, dealers, researchers and exhibitors also can continue operating under a separate permit program, as long as they agree to strict storage and transport rules.

Its a slippery slope, and yes while the breeders can still do what they do, extra headaches are not what they need when you consider the hurdles they already need to leap through.

[beardeds4life]

:'( we need to do something NOW! lets all raid craigslist and forums and lets try to muster every vote possible before we lose our dignity and our snakes who's with me?

[jaleely]

It says " Reptile breeders, dealers, researchers and exhibitors also can continue operating under a separate permit program, as long as they agree to strict storage and transport rules."

And it says they will be banned from being imported, or sold across state lines...not banned all together.

So...looks like they will still be available, and it will keep the wild ones from being caught and imported.
I would think if someone has to pay a license fee, and a microchip (even though this isn't really true for dogs or cats) they *might* be more responsible with keeping their pets. But, it's really all the stupid irresponsible people who've brought it to this anyway.

[bigsnakegirl785]

Omg if I knew the voting stuff was going on, I would definitely have voted. But we've been having trouble with the internet at our house, and AT&T are definitely not good at customer service. Is it too late to vote? (That's probably a dumb question. lol)

[CDN_Blood]

...
I would think if someone has to pay a license fee, and a microchip (even though this isn't really true for dogs or cats) they *might* be more responsible with keeping their pets. But, it's really all the stupid irresponsible people who've brought it to this anyway.

You hit the nail on the head with that :)

[stephanbakir]

It says " Reptile breeders, dealers, researchers and exhibitors also can continue operating under a separate permit program, as long as they agree to strict storage and transport rules."

And it says they will be banned from being imported, or sold across state lines...not banned all together.

So...looks like they will still be available, and it will keep the wild ones from being caught and imported.
I would think if someone has to pay a license fee, and a microchip (even though this isn't really true for dogs or cats) they *might* be more responsible with keeping their pets.
10 minutes of anal probing, 2 men in lab coats and 2 in suits and a full box of rubber gloves?
Something like that I spose.

Omg if I knew the voting stuff was going on, I would definitely have voted. But we've been having trouble with the internet at our house, and AT&T are definitely not good at customer service. Is it too late to vote? (That's probably a dumb question. lol)
There are other things to vote on, if you have facebook I'll send you a few links if not PM me on here and I'll try and send them.

[marvelfreak]

And it says they will be banned from being imported, or sold across state lines...not banned all together.

So...looks like they will still be available, and it will keep the wild ones from being caught and imported.

But say you want a Albino Retic and no one in your state breeds them or wants to go though the hassle to come to our state to sell them. Then you will never be able to get one. You could drive to another states and buy one, but if you get caught or someone turn you in you just became a Felon. Plus say their only two Retic breeders in your state look at paying 2 to 3 times the amount you would now.

What pisses me off are the people who go "Oh i never own any of the big 9 anyway so why should i vote or worry about it." Well it always has to start some where. Next will be medium size snake like BRB, Carpets, Bloods, GTP, and Womas to name a few. Then in a couple years later it be small snakes. Before long they all will be ban.:mad:

To all who did their part THANK YOU!
To those who didn't take the time :no: Shame on you for not caring enough about the animal we all love to do your part.:mad:

[BarelyBreathing]

It rarely matters. When it comes to government, they rarely care about what the people have to say.

[Snakefood]

I would have helped, but I didn't think Canadians would be allowed to sign petitions for state-side

[stephanbakir]

But say you want a Albino Retic and no one in your state breeds them or wants to go though the hassle to come to our state to sell them. Then you will never be able to get one. You could drive to another states and buy one, but if you get caught or someone turn you in you just became a Felon. Plus say their only two Retic breeders in your state look at paying 2 to 3 times the amount you would now.

What pisses me off are the people who go "Oh i never own any of the big 9 anyway so why should i vote or worry about it." Well it always has to start some where. Next will be medium size snake like BRB, Carpets, Bloods, GTP, and Womas to name a few. Then in a couple years later it be small snakes. Before long they all will be ban.:mad:

To all who did their part THANK YOU!
To those who didn't take the time :no: Shame on you for not caring enough about the animal we all love to do your part.:mad:

I was relieved to find out that retics were not on the list of animals banned, currently it stands at A-rocks both norhtern and souther, yellow annies and burms.
That being said, ANY loss is a loss and a step closer to a species wide list of bans.

This is our chance to unite and fight back against any new proposed bans, and there are lots.

If you want any info on this visit USARK.

[stephanbakir]

It rarely matters. When it comes to government, they rarely care about what the people have to say.
Firstly, doing this will win them votes, a big reason why they did it.
Its not about what the minority has to say but the majority.

I would have helped, but I didn't think Canadians would be allowed to sign petitions for state-side
I'm canadian and I voted. I used the address of a friend. They don't check, and they dont care. All they think about is votes.

[stephanbakir]

Rooney slams python ban as half-measure | Florida Politics | Sun Sentinel blog (http://weblogs.sun-sentinel.com/news/politics/dcblog/2012/01/rooney_slams_python_ban_as_hal.html)


Really... you just kicked us in the ball and now you have the nerve to threaten us only 3 hours later.... anyone got a gun?


They also used Bob Clarks photograph... probably without his permission.

Florida Politics (http://weblogs.sun-sentinel.com/news/politics/dcblog/)


<< Previous entry: Miami federal case lurks over Florida redistricting work (http://weblogs.sun-sentinel.com/news/politics/dcblog/2012/01/miami_federal_case_lurks_over.html)



Rooney slams python ban as half-measure (http://weblogs.sun-sentinel.com/news/politics/dcblog/2012/01/rooney_slams_python_ban_as_hal.html)


By William Gibson January 17, 2012 11:56 AM
While others heaped praise on Interior Secretary Ken Salazar’s ban on Burmese pythons and other invasive snakes, South Florida Congressman Tom Rooney called it a half-measure that “will not do nearly enough to protect the Everglades and the surrounding ecosystems.”
http://weblogs.sun-sentinel.com/news/politics/dcblog/Python%20in%20grass.jpg
Salazar’s rules, unveiled on Tuesday, will halt the importation and interstate transport of four constrictor snakes. But Rooney notes that the U.S. Geological (http://weblogs.sun-sentinel.com/news/politics/dcblog/2012/01/rooney_slams_python_ban_as_hal.html#) Service found that nine species threaten Florida’s environment.
Rooney, a Republican from Tequesta, touted his proposed bill that would ban all nine.
“There are nine species of invasive predators that pose a severe threat to our native wildlife," he said, "and all nine need to be eradicated.”
The administration policy will ban the Burmese python, yellow anaconda, and northern and southern African pythons. These four species make up just 30 percent of the trade in giant snakes, Rooney said. Boa constrictors and reticulated pythons are traded in the greatest numbers (http://weblogs.sun-sentinel.com/news/politics/dcblog/2012/01/rooney_slams_python_ban_as_hal.html#), he said.
Rooney’s bill would ban these two as well as the green anaconda, Beni or Bolivian python and DeSchauensee’s anaconda.
Even python policy can turn into a debate.

[Snakefood]

never thought of it that way, someone would have to PM me thier American addy to use for the next one I guess!!

[theapexgerman]

till you one thing with in 5 or 6 month's price's are going to be insane for anaconda's and other's

[stephanbakir]

Look on the forums.. I just posted another one... ****ing Roony just kicked the community in the balls again... I told you it would chain off...

[stephanbakir]

till you one thing with in 5 or 6 month's price's are going to be insane for anaconda's and other's
Prices wont be insane if people dont get off their asses and VOTE NO, you simply wont be able to own them anymore.

[millertime89]

This is outrageous. They knew they wouldn't get it passed through Congress so they found, and implemented, a work-around.

[alessia55]

I guess I'm not surprised... politicians rarely make INFORMED and EDUCATED decisions about stuff like this. When it comes to ACTUALLY protecting the environment and its animals, our supposed "leaders" rarely get it right.

[alessia55]

I'm from Miami and I've seen first-hand the effects Burmese pythons have had on the Everglades... but the python ban ISN'T the answer. I voted, and I wrote to all the senators and governors I could reach. The whole thing is disappointing and infuriating.

[youngster]

.................................. >_< :mad::angry::no:

[BarelyBreathing]

And of course my long rant didn't post. Ugh.

[BarelyBreathing]

They aren't focusing on the majority, though. They are focusing on the minority of the minority. They are focusing on those few times a snake has killed a person. They are focusing on those few people who purposefully let their large snakes free. They are focusing on those very few incidents where a wild or released animal in Florida has killed a pet. In all reality, they cause less damage to the environment than people do, but they don't care about that. All they care about is spreading fear to the undereducated people because they want the world to sympathize with their irrationalities.

[RandyRhoads]

“There are nine species of invasive predators that pose a severe threat to our native wildlife," he said, "and all nine need to be eradicated."

Open season on all invasives in Florida. Time for a new coat.



Seriously have they done anything to allow people to hunt them to help thin them out?

[stephanbakir]

Open season on all invasives in Florida. Time for a new coat.



Seriously have they done anything to allow people to hunt them to help thin them out?
Yes they have, I was actually getting ready to jump on a plane a few months ago and help. They had 2 major options, 1 where you killed the animal then turned it in, and another where you handed off the live animal to them where they then turned it in for research, that didnt last long and soon enough they were euthanizing the animals themselves.

It wasnt enough... they needed to stop being idiots and do it the right way... capture males and females, do whatever with the females then sterilize the males and release them. It's worked with so many species because the males compete with other males for females and sometimes win, combine that with a few other strategies and hope for the best.

that being said with people like Bob Clark selling snakes to anyone with a fat wallet... and idiots releasing their snakes, and idiots believing the media... what can you do.

[Snakefood]

maybe it's time for those who keep their large species properly to get THAT out there!! call the community interest branch of the local news and see if they'll come out and do a POSITIVE news story.

I find this to be the exact same fight as breed banning with regards to dogs. There is so much BAD PRESS out there, those of you who love the big snakes must find ways to get the GOOD PRESS out there too!!

I'd do it, but I don't think me and my 4' cornsnake will make the right impression!!!;)

[stephanbakir]

maybe it's time for those who keep their large species properly to get THAT out there!! call the community interest branch of the local news and see if they'll come out and do a POSITIVE news story.

I find this to be the exact same fight as breed banning with regards to dogs. There is so much BAD PRESS out there, those of you who love the big snakes must find ways to get the GOOD PRESS out there too!!

I'd do it, but I don't think me and my 4' cornsnake will make the right impression!!!;)

we have tried, they twist our words and demolish the names of respectable breeders... They turn it into a carnival.

[marvelfreak]

Just caught the tail end of a news report on it. If you currently own one of them you will be able to keep them. That good because they would have to kill me before i would give up my Yellow Anaconda. So i figure i got about a month to try and get a Granite Burm. lol

[theapexgerman]

maybe it's time for those who keep their large species properly to get THAT out there!! call the community interest branch of the local news and see if they'll come out and do a POSITIVE news story.

I find this to be the exact same fight as breed banning with regards to dogs. There is so much BAD PRESS out there, those of you who love the big snakes must find ways to get the GOOD PRESS out there too!!

I'd do it, but I don't think me and my 4' cornsnake will make the right impression!!!;)
my 5' bull snake would most likely he's pretty big XD but other than that i got no big snake's

[BarelyBreathing]

I've done news shows before. I actually went in with one of the rescues I volunteer at and we brought in a big one eyed burm, a couple of boas, a bearded dragon, and a medium sized tortoise. The camera man adopted the bearded dragon for his kid(s) on the spot.

[Rogue628]

Just caught the tail end of a news report on it. If you currently own one of them you will be able to keep them. That good because they would have to kill me before i would give up my Yellow Anaconda. So i figure i got about a month to try and get a Granite Burm. lol


I'd love to have a T+ burm but there's no way I can get the funds to get one right now. :mad: At least I have my albino burms. And I'm saving every little bit possible for a purple albino retic before they get banned too.

[Snakefood]

I've done news shows before. I actually went in with one of the rescues I volunteer at and we brought in a big one eyed burm, a couple of boas, a bearded dragon, and a medium sized tortoise. The camera man adopted the bearded dragon for his kid(s) on the spot.


AND, you converted at least one mind that day.......progress is progress, even when it's slow

[alessia55]

Just caught the tail end of a news report on it. If you currently own one of them you will be able to keep them. That good because they would have to kill me before i would give up my Yellow Anaconda. So i figure i got about a month to try and get a Granite Burm. lol

What if you currently own a burm and need to move to a different state? Does that mean you wouldn't be able to move your snake with you??

[stephanbakir]

Just caught the tail end of a news report on it. If you currently own one of them you will be able to keep them. That good because they would have to kill me before i would give up my Yellow Anaconda. So i figure i got about a month to try and get a Granite Burm. lol
Best of luck man!

I've done news shows before. I actually went in with one of the rescues I volunteer at and we brought in a big one eyed burm, a couple of boas, a bearded dragon, and a medium sized tortoise. The camera man adopted the bearded dragon for his kid(s) on the spot.
Can't complain with that. How was the show itself?
AND, you converted at least one mind that day.......progress is progress, even when it's slow
Darn tootin'

[Strutter769]

What if you currently own a burm and need to move to a different state? Does that mean you wouldn't be able to move your snake with you??

That's a great question I would be interested in solving, since the Mrs. & I are looking to move out-of-state in the next couple years and of course I have Lucy (BCI) to worry about.

We were hoping to move to someplace more animal-friendly. By then, the only place that'll fit that description will be Brazil! (Oh wait, that wouldn't be too bad..) :hmm:

[RandyRhoads]

. They had 2 major options, 1 where you killed the animal then turned it in, and another where you handed off the live animal to them where they then turned it in for research.

Turning it in, that's no fun. Not much push for average people to go hunt them. A nice 20 foot burm skin for a jacket on the other hand, oh yeah.

[BarelyBreathing]

It depends on the show. One show had this ghetto woman news anchor and the whole show was spent laughing at her. The other one went really well. Everybody was handling the animals. There were crew lining up after the segment to hold them. It was great.

[mykee]

Apathy at it's best... Got what they deserved IMO.

[mykee]

Oh well...

[stephanbakir]

Oh well...
If I was sure of what you meant I'd be exploding right now... hopefully I'm wrong.

[stephanbakir]

That's a great question I would be interested in solving, since the Mrs. & I are looking to move out-of-state in the next couple years and of course I have Lucy (BCI) to worry about.

We were hoping to move to someplace more animal-friendly. By then, the only place that'll fit that description will be Brazil! (Oh wait, that wouldn't be too bad..) :hmm: Boas are on the new list that Rooney is proposing.

Apathy at it's best... Got what they deserved IMO.

Firstly mikey.. yeah.. those idiots got what they deserved...
More importantly, the people who are passionate about their animals and actually give a **** just got slapped in the face... I know a few people who I greatly respect who are in tears right now...
Your attitude towards this matter has eradicated any sliver of desire to meet you, or speak to you in the future. You've always been cold to people, on here, RC and a few other forums but never an ***... and the information you've given has always been useful, although sometimes in the douchiest way possible...

[theapexgerman]

That's a great question I would be interested in solving, since the Mrs. & I are looking to move out-of-state in the next couple years and of course I have Lucy (BCI) to worry about.

We were hoping to move to someplace more animal-friendly. By then, the only place that'll fit that description will be Brazil! (Oh wait, that wouldn't be too bad..) :hmm:
you could always move to phoenix Arizona =D pretty nice state if you don't mind dry heat and 110(f) degrees

[Strutter769]

@Stephan - I understand boas are on the list. That's exactly my concern. I I move across state lines, that presents me with a problem.

And does it specify which boas? BCI & BCC I presume? Is is it even deeper than that?

@Apex - We're thinking of NM actually.

[Lankyrob]

Apathy at it's best... Got what they deserved IMO.


Unfortunately this is how democracy works, lots of people are willing to shout and scream about issues but when it actually comes to getting off their asses and DOING something they dont bother.

As someone that used to regularly run polls and votes for unions etc if we got a 25% "turnout" we classed that as a result - the fact is that "people" are lazy and unless something really gets under their skin and/or threatens their own or their families safety they really wont bother doing anything.

[stephanbakir]

Re-post: Ok im sure im annoying some of you by now, but the dynamics keep changing...word from president of VA fish &game is opposition will only be considered via email to district18@senate.Virginia.gov and MUST be received before 5pm TODAY!!!!!!!!!



Small window I know but get those emails out!

Secondly

They are trying to pass an out right bill to ban a few snakes and other reptiles... please Call 804 698 7518 and vote no on bill 477 ...it takes 2 seconds literally

[Will0W783]

Mine are out...but there really isn't anything we can do about the Burms, Afrocks and anacondas right? Or is there still a chance?

[stephanbakir]

We can fight back, Harry Wessles is going to be starting something for that once he clears his head... give him a day or 2.

[theapexgerman]

@Stephan - I understand boas are on the list. That's exactly my concern. I I move across state lines, that presents me with a problem.

And does it specify which boas? BCI & BCC I presume? Is is it even deeper than that?

@Apex - We're thinking of NM actually.
new Mexico is ok depending were at in NM I'm like a 5-9 hour drive i go there to get medicine it's cheaper and you can get =D only bad thing i tell don;t eat at most of the side restaurants

[Will0W783]

Hopefully we can fight it off....I'm a train wreck right now. I had always assumed that when my big boy passed away, I'd get another Burm. They are such wonderful, sweet snakes. To think I'll never be able to have another is just devastating.

[BarelyBreathing]

Done and done.

[Kayla90]

All I can say is that... this is freaking ridiculous. I realize the need for the government, and what they stand for but when you start doing things that affect millions of people and the things they care about with out even taking the minute to learn what you can about them it just makes me sad.

[stephanbakir]

I know a few people are going to hate this... but.

[theapexgerman]

that really hurt since I'm going through the Police academy jk it doesn't bother me

[Rogue628]

Could someone please help me word a quick email to this guy? I'm at work and only have a minimum amount of time on the computer. You can PM it to me and I'll check back in a few minutes. My mind is so scattered with the ban and trying to get work done, I'm not thinking clearly....

Thanks for the help!

[infernalis]

I know a few people are going to hate this... but.

Under the circumstances, I'll let it slide this time. ;)

[stephanbakir]

I know that ever group has its good people (for the most part) but damn... we are getting our asses handed to us, and freedoms ripped from our hands every single day... we need to join together and fight back.

[Kayla90]

The fact of the matter is it's not the police that have made this decision. There really is no reason to be angry at them. Yes some people on this planet are evil! Some people just don't care. But you can just generalize people because of the job they have, many people abuse power that's just the sad fact of the world.

[theapexgerman]

police has very little power if you think bout it reason I'm becoming one is the pay increase and to prove my dad wrong

[mykee]

Stephan, I'm heartbroken.
So are you saying you disagree with me?
Is this even your fight?
CAN you even fight this fight living where you do?
Personally, for the most part, I stopped caring about other peoples collections a long time ago and have focused on keeping my animals clean, healthy and fed.
You'll find that when push comes to shove, there really is no "community" of reptile enthusiasts, just a bunch of individual keepers who could care less about you and your collection.
Me me me.
You'll see.
Once you've been around longer than 8.4 seconds in this hobby you'll figure that out.
Until then you're speaking on deaf ears and making a general nuisance of yourself with all your vulgarity and bold lettering.

Once the fight comes north of the border (where my voice counts) I'll be on the front lines to defend MY collection. If everyone thought the way I do, LOTS more public outcry would have happened.

So what's your motive here; you don't have a horse in this race, you don't have a voice in this fight, are you just pushing out your chest to show everyone how loud and obnoxious you can be?
You win, we get it.
What's your deal?

USARK has been busting their a$$es trying to do what they can to get these laws voted down. Clearly they didn't have the support of the hobbyists and breeders (who have far more to lose than USARK) behind them.
Serves. Them. Right.
I'm just waiting for the other seven species to be banned as well.

[stephanbakir]

If I had a photo to replace those officers with congressman, or even sheep dressed as congressman, I'd use it.

[infernalis]

What about Monitors and Tegu lizards??

I saw a freaking show on Animal Planet the other day where they portrayed Argentine Tegus as a menace in Florida.

Tegu Lizards (http://ufwildlife.ifas.ufl.edu/REDDy/tegu.shtml)

This old woman was "Oh god it's going to eat me" That thing is nasty.. It was in my yard.

http://ufwildlife.ifas.ufl.edu/images/Tegu_Mario%20Sacramento.jpg

[theapexgerman]

lol like i said it doesn't bother me XD but i do hate donuts tho

[stephanbakir]

Stephan, I'm heartbroken.

USARK has been busting their a$$es trying to do what they can to get these laws voted down. Clearly they didn't have the support of the hobbyists behind them.
Serves them right.
I'm just waiting for the other seven species to be banned as well.
Regarding USARK, they have been great but I don't think they are doing it the right way.
Regarding you... I was going to think up some clever way to tell you off but right now I've got more important "a$$es" to yell at.

[mykee]

Grow up...

[infernalis]

May be of interest.....

This morning a joint press conference was held by Senator Bill Nelson of Florida, Interior Dept Director, Ken Salazar; and US Fish & Wildlife Service Director Dan Ashe at Everglades National Park (ENP) to make an Everglades conservation and preservation announcement. It was made public that a final rule would be enacted by FWS potentially restricting trade in 9 constricting snakes. Although there had been no word from FWS or White House oversight officials prior to the press conference, Andrew Wyatt CEO USARK, learned of a “rumor” on the “HILL” that there would be an announcement regarding the Constrictor Listing; a listing of 9 constricting snakes to the Injurious Wildlife list of the Lacey Act. This is an action that could destroy $104 million per year in small business while potentially making more than 1 million Americans into Lacey Act felons. This action has now come to pass; albeit in a more limited fashion than was pushed by FWS and the powerful environmental and animal rights lobby.

As of now the Constrictor Rule, when enacted, will BAN the IMPORT and INTERSTATE TRANSPORT of the following 4 species: Burmese Python, Northern African Python, Southern African Python and Yellow Anaconda.

USARK will be making further announcements regarding potential legal remedy to the flagrant disregard for “science”, due process, or information quality standards by FWS and the Obama Administration. This is a clear example of policy being based on staff preference combined with political considerations, rather than clear science and due process. The FWS failed at every level to make a solid case for justifying a Lacey Act listing. How the White House can justify this train wreck of a rule to pass is a mystery. In the opinion of USARK the actions of FWS are arbitrary, capricious and unlawful. That is not a charge that is unfamiliar to FWS. In 2010 FWS scientists were found guilty of falsifying information to manufacture science to support a rule on the Delta Smelt in the Central Valley of California. FWS was found guilty of being “arbitrary, capricious and unlawful" in their effort to add the controversial fish to the Endangered Species Act. USARK will pursue available legal remedy to this travesty of justice and blatant misuse of the Lacey Act. The Lacey Act was the wrong tool for the wrong reason.

[stephanbakir]

Stephan, I'm heartbroken.
So are you saying you disagree with me?
Is this even your fight?
CAN you even fight this fight living where you do?
Personally, for the most part, I stopped caring about other peoples collections a long time ago and have focused on keeping my animals clean, healthy and fed.
You'll find that when push comes to shove, there really is no "community" of reptile enthusiasts, just a bunch of individual keepers who could care less about you and your collection.
Me me me.
You'll see.
Once you've been around longer than 8.4 seconds in this hobby you'll figure that out.
Until then you're speaking on deaf ears and making a general nuisance of yourself with all your vulgarity and bold lettering.

Once the fight comes north of the border (where my voice counts) I'll be on the front lines to defend MY collection. If everyone thought the way I do, LOTS more public outcry would have happened.

So what's your motive here; you don't have a horse in this race, you don't have a voice in this fight, are you just pushing out your chest to show everyone how loud and obnoxious you can be?
You win, we get it.
What's your deal?

USARK has been busting their a$$es trying to do what they can to get these laws voted down. Clearly they didn't have the support of the hobbyists and breeders (who have far more to lose than USARK) behind them.
Serves. Them. Right.
I'm just waiting for the other seven species to be banned as well.
Yes I can fight from where I currently stand, and if you thought for more then a second you could figure out how.
I DO have a horse in this race, as I plan on moving to the states next year.
Even if I wasn't I'd still fight, and do you know why? Because I care about more then just ME, I have friends and family who live in the states and I'm willing to fight for more then just MY interests.

[Necrias]

Email sent, phone call made. This REALLY blows, considering I just invested a very large amount of money (for me) on a few new burms that I was hoping on breeding in a few years.

[stephanbakir]

Thanks Wayne.
Time for YOU to grow up Mykee.

[stephanbakir]

Uninformed people are one of our biggest opponents right now, the most that tegu could do is rip off a toe or a finger... that is if she forgot that its about the same size as a football..

[BarelyBreathing]

I'm sorry you feel that way. I've been in the hobby for most of my life, and I feel that this community is one of the strongest communities in my area. Everybody knows everybody. Everybody helps everybody. Yeah, there are a few apathetic individuals, and there are a few bad apples, but there are those of us who realize community is everything.

[CK SandBoas]

E-mails Sent, phone call made.

[mykee]

"I DO have a horse in this race, as I plan on moving to the states next year."
Bingo!!!
Knew I'd get to the bottom of this if I asked the right question.
It's all about You You You and keeping your big species when you head south next year.
Ulterior motive uncovered.

[stephanbakir]

Bingo!!!
Knew I'd get to the bottom of this if I asked the right question.
It's all about You You You and keeping your big species when you head south next year.
Ulterior motive uncovered.
I've never hidden it, everyone knows, I AM moving south next year.
Even if I wasn't I'd still fight because every vote does count, and I dont only care about me.

[Kayla90]

Wow really? That's a year from now "Mykee".. He's been up all night speaking with loads of people trying to help out his friends.. You must be one of the most SELFISH people I've ever spoken too.. and I've met a ton of selfish people so that just goes to show how SAD it must be to be you! I almost feel sorry for you.. but not really. You enjoy being by yourself and caring for yourself.. and why don't you do the rest of us, who actually care, and just stick to you, you and you! No one here needs to listen to your negativity..

[Rogue628]

I made the phone call. I found it frustrating that the woman who answered the phone just took what I said with a grain of salt, although she said it would be noted.....are they actually keeping tabs on who is calling in? How many times can I call from various numbers with fake names?

Still working on the email. I'm brain dead and find it hard to concentrate :unhappy:

[stephanbakir]

It's unfortunately to be expected. Keep at it!

[alessia55]

The ban does not involve me, technically, since I do not own any of the species on the ban. I'm not a huge part of the reptile community, I don't know many reptile keepers in person (actually, I only know 3: my cousin, a friend here in Philly, and a friend in Miami). Yet I'm fighting for this ban to be lifted because it matters to other reptile owners- most of which I've never met. The ban doesn't concern me or my cousin, strictly speaking since we own ball pythons and a kingsnake, but I still wrote to every governor, senator, and representative that I could get a hold of. In fact, since I never plan on owning anything but ball pythons, the ban shouldn't bother me unless it starts to turn towards banning ball pythons, right? Not the case. I care because it matters to other people. Mykee, I don't think the way you say everyone else does ("me me me"). And I get the feeling that Stephan would still be fighting for us here in the states even if he wasn't planning on moving here.

[CK SandBoas]

I truly wished more would show the passion and intensity that Stephan has shown spreading the word about this ongoing battle. I will fight for not only my right to keep my animals, but for others to be able to keep and breed theirs. We need more people like Stephan, not others who just lay down and die when the going gets tough, and say Oh well, too bad.

,

[mykee]

What a surprise! the GF comes to Stephans aid.
You two have no clue as to how large a role I play in the reptile community here in Canada, or more specifically Southern Ontario (where 90% of reptile owners in Canada reside).
Being an active member BTW doesn't mean sitting in front of your computer 18 hours a day amassing over 6000 posts in ten months.
That's just sad.
And a little pathetic.

Where were you Stephan when the ban was going on in BC?
Nowhere.
No horse in the race...

KK and Alessia; more power to you. The communitty in general needs more members like you. If it had members who cared the way you two (Stephan too) it wouldn't be in the position it's in now. Too many people care too little.

[alessia55]

I'd like to add:

I also fight to lift the ban of pit bulls in different areas and states across the country... despite the fact that I do not (and never have) owned a pit bull. It's about caring about the species at a whole and the people who share the love for animals-- whether it be dogs, cats, birds, snakes, porcupines, you name it. I'm a big animal lover, and though I've never had any reason to fight for the survival of the florida panthers, pit bulls, sea turtles, burmese pythons, rock pythons, and yellow anacondas, I still do because the animals matter, and they matter to people, and I care. When it comes to this reptile ban, I'm involved mostly because it matters to people I've NEVER MET (most of you on this forum).

[Kayla90]

GF?? I'm not his girlfriend.. Unless of course GF stands for something else?

Oh and we do have a clue about "how large a role you play" but apparently you don't really give a **** so what use are you. Clearly you aren't doing much to help out anyone other than yourself and sitting at home bringing in your income from you "presious" animals you apparently could careless for.

[BarelyBreathing]

Wow, Mykee. This is completely uncalled for.

[stephanbakir]

What a surprise! the GF comes to Stephans aid.
You two have no clue as to how large a role I play in the reptile community here in Canada, or more specifically Southern Ontario (where 90% of reptile owners in Canada reside).
Being an active member BTW doesn't mean sitting in front of your computer 18 hours a day amassing over 6000 posts in ten months.
That's just sad.
And a little pathetic.

Where were you Stephan when the ban was going on in BC?
Nowhere.
No horse in the race...
First of all, Kayla is NOT my girlfriend, she is my roommate, my fiancee recently DIED and I have absolutely NO interest in dating right now.

I spent most of 2009 in the hospital, same with 2008 and the later part of 2010 from various injuries. And YES I did fight that ban, not even close to as hard as I would have liked but I was in pretty terrible mental and physical shape at the time.

[millertime89]

Piss off mikey, there are ways to contribute when not living in the country as Stephan is demonstrating. I've contributed, I'm spreading the word, sending emails, making phone calls, talking to people, but it just isn't enough. If you wanted you could do the same. Yes we're looking out for our own interests, but if you helped now, we would return the favor when asked.

[RandyRhoads]

police has very little power if you think bout it reason I'm becoming one is the pay increase and to prove my dad wrong

That may possibly be the worst reason i've ever heard. Did you never grow out of that rebellious faze ?

[theapexgerman]

GF?? I'm not his girlfriend.. Unless of course GF stands for something else?

Oh and we do have a clue about "how large a role you play" but apparently you don't really give a **** so what use are you. Clearly you aren't doing much to help out anyone other than yourself and sitting at home bringing in your income from you "presious" animals you apparently could careless for.

GF could also mean good friend altho i don't think that's what he meant

[Kayla90]

And like you say Mykee, if you are such a big part of the reptile community.. Imagine the help you could ACTUALLY offer if you gave two shits. Funny, it's people like you that take from away from people that actually care. It's people like you that bills pass because they "clearly" don't affect you. Well guess what, next they be banning ball pythons and see how much money you'll be making when it's illegal in Canada for you to sell them!

[Necrias]

Since the other thread has devolved into mud slinging, I'll post this here...

All this ban will do is drive the Burm industry underground. Businesses/breeders will appear lawful on the outside (in-state and export sales only), but there is no way that shipping or interstate transport can be policed to any effective degree. Prices are definitely going to go up though, due to the small but inherent risk of getting caught.

[mykee]

Maybe my ire isn't about the complete and abject apathy that 95% of reptile owners have for their hobby and fighting for it. Maybe this all just boils down to the fact that I do think the larger species (as I've been mentioning for years) should be banned (with the exception of the boa constrictor).

For years there has been an ever growing group in the reptile community in general who feel that the larger species bring in a 'different' group to the hobby that for whatever reason bright negative attention to the hobby, thereby giving the smaller species and their keeper/breeders a bad name as well.
So to sum up, I AM for the ban of the Big Nine (with the exception of boa constrictor constrictor).

[Rogue628]

Really Mykee? If you don't have anything positive to add, would you please leave it alone? We don't need all the negativity.

"I" have burms and I'm saving for a retic right now. However, this isn't the point. It's about the privileges to have these animals being taken away.

"I" do not have a APB, nor do I own one, yet I stand with APB owners in their rights to keep these animals.

I see this all as a snowball rolling down a hill. It's starts off with banning of one thing, then leads to another. Pretty soon the Nanny States of America will no longer be what's left of a democratic union (my own personal opinion) but become watchdogs saying what we can and cannot have, what we can and cannot do.

It's way more than just about me, but about EVERYONE and EVERYTHING we have and do. I, for one, do NOT like having things taken away from me because of someone else feels like I should not have them.

[stephanbakir]

Keep in mind that even if we lose 1 battle, its still possible to regain those lost yards.
Just because you lose a few doesnt mean its time to go home, it just tells you that its time to push harder and move their line back.

[RandyRhoads]

......................

[Rogue628]

Keep in mind that even if we lose 1 battle, its still possible to regain those lost yards.
Just because you lose a few doesnt mean its time to go home, it just tells you that its time to push harder and move their line back.


Can a sister get an amen? I was thinking earlier what could we do to push back on this and then I saw this thread. Thank you for posting it Stephan. Anything else you find that can help please pass it along. :)

[presspirate]

The strong language is getting a little excessive I think. I agree with the sentiment, but tone it down a bit.

[RandyRhoads]

Maybe my ire isn't about the complete and abject apathy that 95% of reptile owners have for their hobby and fighting for it. Maybe this all just boils down to the fact that I do think the larger species (as I've been mentioning for years) should be banned (with the exception of the boa constrictor).

For years there has been an ever growing group in the reptile community in general who feel that the larger species bring in a 'different' group to the hobby that for whatever reason bright negative attention to the hobby, thereby giving the smaller species and their keeper/breeders a bad name as well.
So to sum up, I AM for the ban of the Big Nine (with the exception of boa constrictor constrictor).

Hey glad someone said it. I just don't want to have to pay alot to be able to house my burm. Proving you can secure it and safely keep it sounds good. Not every Jacka** being able to buy a giant python that could kill pets/ children and destroy the ecosystem might be a good thing.

[stephanbakir]

I already said sorry to Wayne, I was pretty pissed last night and still am, but I've toned it down a bit.

[beardeds4life]

its nto to late we still have till next week

[beardeds4life]

Maybe my ire isn't about the complete and abject apathy that 95% of reptile owners have for their hobby and fighting for it. Maybe this all just boils down to the fact that I do think the larger species (as I've been mentioning for years) should be banned (with the exception of the boa constrictor).

For years there has been an ever growing group in the reptile community in general who feel that the larger species bring in a 'different' group to the hobby that for whatever reason bright negative attention to the hobby, thereby giving the smaller species and their keeper/breeders a bad name as well.
So to sum up, I AM for the ban of the Big Nine (with the exception of boa constrictor constrictor).

dont you keep boa's? How would you feel if they banned them. You do not care because you do not keep them. :mad:

[red ink]

I thought igs were also running rampant in Florida....

It does'nt have to hurt people to devastate the local eco system... seems all people care about at the moment is self preservation.

[RandyRhoads]

I think people are overlooking some things. It is safe to say that hots/giant pythons are just as dangerous as a gun. Most will agree a giant python is just as dangerous as some hots, if not more dangerous. There is no antidote for being crushed to death, especially if no one else is there with you to call for help. There is a background check and screening process for guns in most places. Why not for something allegedly as dangerous? Should an 8 year old be allowed to go to a gun store and buy a handgun? No. Why should he be able to go to the pet store and buy a giant python. Or even an irresponsible adult. "Hey i'll be so cool if I have a 20 foot snake"...... Some things need to be changed. I don't agree with an outright ban but i'd be more for trying to change certain parts after the band than stop it outright.

[jaleely]

So, let's get back to the animals. I think they should just ban the importing. There is no need at all whatsoever to have any of these animals being taken from the wild when there are so many in the pet trade. They should trap the ones in florida, and adopt them out to all these supposedly responsible snake owners who want them (not the ones who clearly let them escape already) and leave it at that. There shouldn't be any imports at *all*.

Most of the people who even want one right now only want it because it could be banned, and they don't want to not be able to have it.

I hate the government pushing laws and rules, and i hate the minority being able to be louder and push everyone else around, like this. But in this case and others, i think the snakes will be better off NOT being in some dinky petshop to have some inbred hick come over and buy it, starve it, and have it eat their stupid ibred baby and then escape.
Also breeders whine about having new genetics in their lines. If they thought more about the health of the animals, instead of trying to make a name for themseleves, or making money, they wouldn't be breeding mother's to babies, and babies back to siblings, and making a mess of everything anyway.

No imports. And yeah, I think people should have to get a microchip &/or a license for a pet that could be dangerous if not taken care of. *Because* the majority of the people, out of the minority that have snakes....are stupid. Very, very irrisponsible and stupid.

And, when it comes to legsislation picking on something I own, i fight it if i feel like it. I don't need a pep rally. Firstly, if i want to cross a border and move somewhere, I also own guns so they better be prepared to try to take my snake from me. Secondly, i'd be perfectly happy having only the people who currently own large snakes be the only ones. They don't need to keep being imported, since people have already proven they can't take care of their responsibility. Too bad so sad for the rest of us, but it's always the stupid kid who ruins the party for the rest.

Do you really think it's fair to keep selling a snake to just anyone, when it's usually that snake that is mistreated? Just for the right to let anyone have one? Not everyone SHOULD have one. I don't know how else they can protect the snakes from all the morons.


Randyrhodes, you put it better than i did *lol*

[RandyRhoads]

Too bad so sad for the rest of us, but it's always the stupid kid who ruins the party for the rest.


No offense, but kind of like gun control because of statements like this one below?


Firstly, if i want to cross a border and move somewhere, I also own guns so they better be prepared to try to take my snake from me.


That's way too far. No need to cross the border guns blazing for your snake, trust me it wont end well, lol.

[jaleely]

Uninformed are always the biggest problem. The uninformed and irrisponsible pet owners are also how we got to this point.

stephenbakir, you advised to sterilize and release them...why on *earth* would you do that? the facts are they *are* a non-native species. That's a terrible plan. Why wouldn't you just ship them back to the amazon or something or adopt them out? I mean, supposedly they are okay enough to own as pets to begin with...even the wild and imported ones. So, are they too used to the wild once in the everglades, to be adopted out? WHy would you catch and release? The whole point is people don't want them there.

[stephanbakir]

So, let's get back to the animals. I think they should just ban the importing. There is no need at all whatsoever to have any of these animals being taken from the wild when there are so many in the pet trade. They should trap the ones in florida, and adopt them out to all these supposedly responsible snake owners who want them (not the ones who clearly let them escape already) and leave it at that. There shouldn't be any imports at *all*.

Most of the people who even want one right now only want it because it could be banned, and they don't want to not be able to have it.

I hate the government pushing laws and rules, and i hate the minority being able to be louder and push everyone else around, like this. But in this case and others, i think the snakes will be better off NOT being in some dinky petshop to have some inbred hick come over and buy it, starve it, and have it eat their stupid ibred baby and then escape.
Also breeders whine about having new genetics in their lines. If they thought more about the health of the animals, instead of trying to make a name for themseleves, or making money, they wouldn't be breeding mother's to babies, and babies back to siblings, and making a mess of everything anyway.

No imports. And yeah, I think people should have to get a microchip &/or a license for a pet that could be dangerous if not taken care of. *Because* the majority of the people, out of the minority that have snakes....are stupid. Very, very irrisponsible and stupid.

And, when it comes to legsislation picking on something I own, i fight it if i feel like it. I don't need a pep rally. Firstly, if i want to cross a border and move somewhere, I also own guns so they better be prepared to try to take my snake from me. Secondly, i'd be perfectly happy having only the people who currently own large snakes be the only ones. They don't need to keep being imported, since people have already proven they can't take care of their responsibility. Too bad so sad for the rest of us, but it's always the stupid kid who ruins the party for the rest.

Do you really think it's fair to keep selling a snake to just anyone, when it's usually that snake that is mistreated? Just for the right to let anyone have one? Not everyone SHOULD have one. I don't know how else they can protect the snakes from all the morons.


Randyrhodes, you put it better than i did *lol*
Firstly, its impossible to eradicate them from the everglades. They simply don't have enough cause to invest that kind of money into the project, even if they did I still believe it to be impossible.

Regarding imports, it SHOULD be legal, but cracked down on. We NEED new blood, and if we don't right now, we will soon enough. New base mutations are not really needed, we could enjoy them from afar.

Even if you trapped all the burms, there is no way you could adopt out that many... it's just too many snakes.

"they wouldn't be breeding mother's to babies, and babies back to siblings, and making a mess of everything anyway." you really dont know much about it do you? You NEED to inbreed to prove out new recessive mutations, and up until a certain point, it doesn't really hurt. That being said, the GOOD breeders aren't idiots and take that into consideration while breeding. You are also always jumping from project to project (some projects take much longer then others) which mixes up the blood.

" Firstly, if i want to cross a border and move somewhere, I also own guns so they better be prepared to try to take my snake from me." That is the wrong image to portray, they already look at us like an aggressive/defensive minority on a power trip... lets try and change that?

"Not everyone SHOULD have one" I agree, what screening process do you propose? remember it needs to be foolproof.

[RandyRhoads]

Uninformed are always the biggest problem. The uninformed and irrisponsible pet owners are also how we got to this point.

stephenbakir, you advised to sterilize and release them...why on *earth* would you do that? the facts are they *are* a non-native species. That's a terrible plan. Why wouldn't you just ship them back to the amazon or something or adopt them out? I mean, supposedly they are okay enough to own as pets to begin with...even the wild and imported ones. So, are they too used to the wild once in the everglades, to be adopted out? WHy would you catch and release? The whole point is people don't want them there.

I was trying to refrain, but yeah, what the hell lol......they can still crush the enviornment for the next MANY years of its' life span, even if they can't reproduce.

[red ink]

Uninformed are always the biggest problem. The uninformed and irrisponsible pet owners are also how we got to this point.



Actually.. I would say it's not the uninformed that has caused the biggest problem but the apathy of the reptile hobby itself. If people cared enough not to sell just to anybody, not to buy from petshops, not to breed just for a quick buck, well then I would'nt think that the govt would have had to step in.

It's a big industry but unfortunately reptile hobbyist are still way way way outnumbered by non-reptile loving people. Given that it's a majority vote in a democracy, maybe the industry should have policed itself from the begining instead of chasing the bucks.

This is a wake up call to the hobby itself... be responsible or "they" step in.

[stephanbakir]

Uninformed are always the biggest problem. The uninformed and irrisponsible pet owners are also how we got to this point.

stephenbakir, you advised to sterilize and release them...why on *earth* would you do that? the facts are they *are* a non-native species. That's a terrible plan. Why wouldn't you just ship them back to the amazon or something or adopt them out? I mean, supposedly they are okay enough to own as pets to begin with...even the wild and imported ones. So, are they too used to the wild once in the everglades, to be adopted out? WHy would you catch and release? The whole point is people don't want them there.
I understand that, and I specifically stated to sterilize MALES and release them back into the wild. The project has worked with dozens of species, the main ones being sea lamprey and various other fish species.

The way it works is, those males go back into the wild, and yeah they kill the stuff they eat, but they compete with other males for breeding rights with females, and they may lose some battles, but the battles they win mean they there will be 20-45 less pythons in the wild, it sounds crazy but it works, and it works WELL.
As those burms get older, they overpower more and more non sterile males and every female they breed slugs out, meaning there are so many less babies popping up in the wild.

I was trying to refrain, but yeah, what the hell lol......they can still crush the enviornment for the next MANY years of its' life span, even if they can't reproduce.
The damage they do is nothing compared to the damage ALL of the offspring they stop from popping up will do. 1 healthy male can breed 3-8 females in a season, more since mature male retics and burms are rapists... that male in the wild does their population more damage then simply removing him.

[RandyRhoads]

I wont argue with you there but why would you want ANY more damage done by releasing them back? OF course 1,000,000 of them will do more harm than 1,000. But why put that 1,000 back at all?

[stephanbakir]

I wont argue with you there but why would you want ANY more damage done by releasing them back? OF course 1,000,000 of them will do more harm than 1,000. But why put that 1,000 back at all?
Lets say half those 1000 males are healthy, and they each win 4 battles with other males for the females attention, they will then each breed their 4 females and those females will slug out.

Now, 500X4=2000 So 2000 females will be bred by the 1000 males you sterilized and released into the wild. Those 2000 females will lay between 20 and 45 slugs (infertile eggs) for the sake of argument I'm going to lowball it and say all 2000 females lay only 20 eggs. By releasing 1000 sterile females into the wild you just stopped 40,000 fertile eggs from being layed, not to mention all of the females the males found and didn't have to fight for.

Its a simple math problem.

[RandyRhoads]

Either you're missing what i'm saying or there is something that releasing them does i'm not understanding. I know what you're saying about them multiplying, I get your math problem. But why would you want to release them to "slug out" what exactly greater accomplishment does that achieve than just killing them so they don't go and mate in the first place. Just kill all the males and females.

If i'm not getting it explain in more detail please, i'd like to know.

[stephanbakir]

Lets say the average person you send out into the glades gets 10 burms a week, 1.1 ratio, by releasing that 1 male every time you stop multiple clutches of 20-45 from being layed. This multiplies year by year because that male not only breeds every year hes alive in the wild, but he fights other males for females, and finds females for himself and breeds them. For the same manpower and just about the same investment you do WAY more damage the population then you otherwise would.
Yeh 1 burm will do damage, but is it better to accept that he will do damage if it means that he will stop the population explosion in some small way? even if he only breeds for 1 year and then dies in the winter, he just stopped 20-180 babies from ever being born.

[Necrias]

I think the point that Stephan was trying to make is that for each female these infertile males mate with, that is one less female giving birth. So you are "blocking" those fertile female from reproducing.

[stephanbakir]

Exactly! it works better then you think.

[RandyRhoads]

So you are going off the assumption that the female will breed with a male regardless, and it would be better to be a sterile male,taking up her breeding season. At least I understand what you are saying now thanks for explaining it. I see what you're saying but that involves live catching/sexing. I still think it would be better to just slaughter every one. We've hunted other species to extinction/ near extinction, what's different about this? There would actually be a high market for burm leather products I would assume..

[RandyRhoads]

I think the point that Stephan was trying to make is that for each female these infertile males mate with, that is one less female giving birth. So you are "blocking" those fertile female from reproducing.

You know what else stops a female from breeding? A slug to the head. Just my opinion I haven't been to the everglades so I don't know what it's like but given the opportunity i'd think they could have enough people hunting them out for their skins, like elephants and ivory. I know i'd be out as much as possible if I was there and it was open season no bag limit..

[red ink]

You've caught it... and you would go to the trouble of performing an operation to sterilise it then release it?

A quick destruction of the medulla oblangata would be more efficient and cost effective... why release it again as while it is out there firing blanks it's still causing damage to the eco system. A more effective way in saving the ecosystem is not by having sterile males out there, it would be by not having any males (or females) at all.

[stephanbakir]

Those males you release will do more damage then you ever could hope to, to the population. and thus saving the environment, the damage they do is minor compared to the damage the offspring they will never give a chance to be, will ever do.

The everglades is MASSIVE, do you really think anyone has the manpower to eradicate burms from it? If it was even 20% the size it is now, do you really think that even then we have the power to kill every single one? without changing our mindset and being smarter about it?

[theapexgerman]

You know what else stops a female from breeding? A slug to the head. Just my opinion I haven't been to the everglades so I don't know what it's like but given the opportunity i'd think they could have enough people hunting them out for their skins, like elephants and ivory. I know i'd be out as much as possible if I was there and it was open season no bag limit..
lol i like that slug to the head

[RandyRhoads]

Those males you release will do more damage then you ever could hope to, to the population. and thus saving the environment, the damage they do is minor compared to the damage the offspring they will never give a chance to be, will ever do.

The everglades is MASSIVE, do you really think anyone has the manpower to eradicate burms from it? If it was even 20% the size it is now, do you really think that even then we have the power to kill every single one? without changing our mindset and being smarter about it?


How big was Africa and other places animals were hunted out? Pretty big i'm guessing. I'm not saying overnight, and yes devise a plan. I just think it would at least get a good handle on them. Allow native burm leather to be sold, with high prices like ivory,mink, and such, and see how quick people are to harvest it.

[red ink]

Those males you release will do more damage then you ever could hope to, to the population. and thus saving the environment, the damage they do is minor compared to the damage the offspring they will never give a chance to be, will ever do.

The everglades is MASSIVE, do you really think anyone has the manpower to eradicate burms from it? If it was even 20% the size it is now, do you really think that even then we have the power to kill every single one? without changing our mindset and being smarter about it?


Yeah I get what your saying... I'm still just having trouble with the reasoning.

Your saying that the damage they do is minor compared to the offsprings they will never have.

What I'm getting at is... It's already in your hands and dead snakes don't eat, dead snakes don't mate is saying.

The money saved from euthanising instead of catching, sterilising then releasing can be put to better use i.e more traps, more hunters.

Think of this as a scenario... your sterilised specimen gets released back into the glades, continues to grow then somehow manages to get back into someones backyard, media gets a hold of the story... what do you think happen then?

Joe public don't care bout no science mumbo jumbo, joe public only cares bout kickin arse and takin names yeeehahhh.

You gotta fight fire with fire on this one as that's the mentality of your enemy.

[red ink]

How big was Africa and other places animals were hunted out? Pretty big i'm guessing. I'm not saying overnight, and yes devise a plan. I just think it would at least get a good handle on them. Allow native burm leather to be sold, with high prices like ivory,mink, and such, and see how quick people are to harvest it.

Yep... nearly wipe out the buffalos from the plains in a few decades.

[RandyRhoads]

LMAO joe public science mumbo jumbo..

[Aaron_S]

You know, I'm going to weigh in here and what thread here on ssnakess would be complete without my opinion?

I will side with that I have my own "dog" in this fight. It isn't for profits or anything like that. I refuse to help this bill be overturned. Here's why. Not only due to the "wrong" people who own these animals make a really bad image for all the good keepers it's because they simply are dangerous. That was proven with the death of a young girl by burmese python. Yes, it happened only once under certain circumstances but we no longer can claim our snakes don't or haven't taken human life. That's huge.

Now maybe I think this way because I have my own child but why should some circumstance EVER happen where my daughter is put in harm's way because YOU decided to bring a dangerous animal into the home/apartment/whatever next/above/under mine? Why should *I* be the one to incur ANY repercussions of YOUR poor decision making should ANYTHING happen to MY child from your animal? I don't just say this in regards to dangerous snakes but ANY other animals or whatever.

I make this similar to drunk driving. Sure I can get into a car drunk(never have and never will)and drive knowingly putting myself at risk but I also have put EVERYBODY around me at risk too! That isn't fair to them. I'm in control of my life but I must show respect for others around me and if I can't drive or own a pet because of that then so be it. It's a small price to pay in the end for my own safety as well those I love and hold dear.

[beardeds4life]

Ok guys I know you will all laugh at me for saying this but come on people. Because your pissed do not go fighting with each other. How do you think we got into this mess? We need to fight the government (politely) NOT each other. Stop saying things like I have guns so they better not try to take my snak away from me. What if they came on and read that huh? This is not the fix. This is why we are portrayed as a murderous dangerous group. Be the solution not the cause.

[stephanbakir]

How big was Africa and other places animals were hunted out? Pretty big i'm guessing. I'm not saying overnight, and yes devise a plan. I just think it would at least get a good handle on them. Allow native burm leather to be sold, with high prices like ivory,mink, and such, and see how quick people are to harvest it.
Suply and demand, if you flood the market the prices wont be so high. When the supply goes down because the population goes down the number of people hunting them will skyrocket, helping your battle. That being said, what happens when the population drops to the point where it stops being financially reasonable to hunt them? People will stop, and do you really think everyone out there hunting them cares more about the glades then their financial situation? I'd be surprised if half the hunters didn't let babies go free instead of killing them on sight, so the hunt can go on.

I don't think there has been a documented case of parthenogenisis in burmese pythons, so lets pretend its impossible. Do you honestly think that you can kill ALL of the males, and or females in the wild population? I doubt you can even find them all, hollow standing trees, tunnels, dense vegetation, its not feasible to eradicate them, but your best bet when it comes to decimating the numbers as fast as possible to is to reintroduce infertile males.


Your saying that the damage they do is minor compared to the offsprings they will never have.

What I'm getting at is... It's already in your hands and dead snakes don't eat, dead snakes don't mate is saying.


The offsping the MALES will never have, you are killing the females. Be not releasing infertile males the females are forced to breed with males who are almost 100% likely to be fertile... its a losing battle.

[Aaron_S]

Alright guys let's stay on topic here. There's an entire thread dedicated to off-topic chatter. Please take your police training/gun laws talk there.

[red ink]

The offsping the MALES will never have, you are killing the females. Be not releasing infertile males the females are forced to breed with males who are almost 100% likely to be fertile... its a losing battle.

How about we don't release any back at all (male or female) is what I'm getting at. I understand what you are saying the infertile male will compete with the fertile males for females... in the meantime the infertile male is still having an impact on the local ecology.

There's no guanrantee the infertile male will win courtship rights with the female... Females can mate with multiple males during the breeding season, one infertile the other fertile.. results still more snakes.

Easiest way let the public have their way and let them go on a invasive species killing spree... win win. They feel like they're doin something and there's a dent in the population. If we were going to spend money on the operation for sterilisation, half that and use it as a bounty for the snake. Quickest way to make a natural resource scarce.. put a value on it and don't restrict the take. Even at 10 bux a pop, there will be hunters out there who will take 10-20 a weekend to make that kind of cash.

It's the same tactics we are trying to use here... "shoot all ferals". Hunters wil hunt and rednecks will kill for kicks. Why not use their idiocy to your advantage, shift their mentality to go hunting and killing invasives.

[marvelfreak]

You know, I'm going to weigh in here and what thread here on ssnakess would be complete without my opinion?

I will side with that I have my own "dog" in this fight. It isn't for profits or anything like that. I refuse to help this bill be overturned. Here's why. Not only due to the "wrong" people who own these animals make a really bad image for all the good keepers it's because they simply are dangerous. That was proven with the death of a young girl by burmese python. Yes, it happened only once under certain circumstances but we no longer can claim our snakes don't or haven't taken human life. That's huge.

Now maybe I think this way because I have my own child but why should some circumstance EVER happen where my daughter is put in harm's way because YOU decided to bring a dangerous animal into the home/apartment/whatever next/above/under mine? Why should *I* be the one to incur ANY repercussions of YOUR poor decision making should ANYTHING happen to MY child from your animal? I don't just say this in regards to dangerous snakes but ANY other animals or whatever.

I make this similar to drunk driving. Sure I can get into a car drunk(never have and never will)and drive knowingly putting myself at risk but I also have put EVERYBODY around me at risk too! That isn't fair to them. I'm in control of my life but I must show respect for others around me and if I can't drive or own a pet because of that then so be it. It's a small price to pay in the end for my own safety as well those I love and hold dear.
The most intelligent post in this whole thread.

I do have a couple questions about this whole Ban.
1) Why Yellow Anacondas but not Greens? Greens get 3 times the size.
2) Does the ban appeal to Dwarf Burmese Pythons and SD Retics?

IMO the ban Should not apply to Boas. I understand why Yellows are on there. Because female can reach 16 feet, but i never seen a male over 9 feet.

[Strutter769]

Are boas now banned, or on the list of species that could *possibly* be banned in the future. As of now it's Burns and African Rocks that have been specified. Is my understanding correct?

[marvelfreak]

Are boas now banned, or on the list of species that could *possibly* be banned in the future. As of now it's Burns and African Rocks that have been specified. Is my understanding correct?
And Yellow Anacondas.

[Strutter769]

Ok, Yellow Anacondas, Burmese and African Rock Python. When this BS goes into effect, all others are still "business as usual," right? Until further notice?

[stephanbakir]

The most intelligent post in this whole thread.

I do have a couple questions about this whole Ban.
1) Why Yellow Anacondas but not Greens? Greens get 3 times the size.
2) Does the ban appeal to Dwarf Burmese Pythons and SD Retics?

IMO the ban Should not apply to Boas. I understand why Yellows are on there. Because female can reach 16 feet, but i never seen a male over 9 feet.
1: no idea
2: it covers Python reticulatus and Python molurus bivittatus, the locales of these species, while smaller share the same scientific name.

[Freebody]

where was everyone when they did a complete ban on every speciece that has at least one type of snake that reaches over 9 feet complete ban of sale/import/export, then made the permit a handfull of days after the law change with a registration cap, as well as not give permits in time for the cap, resulting in law enforcment coming to kill everyones pets that tried to get them registered and didnt meet the time limit. case in point nile monitors, not one permit aproved before the time expired... consider yourselves lucky this did not happen to the rest of you a year and a bit ago like myself.. :( very sad to hear no one benifited from are misfortune and decided to not idle by and let the govt take are rights away. dangerous or not dangerous, the choice should be mine to make, and the consiquinces should aslo be mine to take if i fail to be responsible and cause undo harm to others or the herp in point. I am a law abiding citizen who has not proven other wise. sad day for everyone, I really think the govt should have to make these things Much more know than they do, freaking i know the states resteraunts have sale on burgers and fries this weekend somowhere, yet if i didnt go out of my way i would have no idea this every happend and i love herps and would do any vote every damn near anytime.........rant....

[Aaron_S]

Freebody, my point isn't about you wanting to take the consequences and if you personally are, or are not a law abiding citizen. I believe you are.

My point is that it could very well end up being that my child or anyone's child for that matter could be the one taking the consequences of any adults mistake in this regard. It is our duty, in my opinion, that we ensure that our choices don't negatively affect those around us, knowing them or not.

[millertime89]

You guys that think the giants should be banned have a right to your opinion, but what about the dwarf locales that are grouped into the ban along with the mainlands? This ban affects me too not because I want to keep the giants (I do and don't) but because I want to keep their smaller brethren, and want to have some of the cool morphs that are currently available only from the big ones. By supporting the ban you are supporting the people that are trying to force their beliefs on the rest of us. In some instances, this is not a bad thing, however when your beliefs result in the limitation of the rights of free individuals, it IS a bad thing.
I understand the why, but that doesn't mean I agree with it.

[millertime89]

I sent out my email in time, just haven't been on the forum as much lately between school and trying to spread the word on FB and elsewhere. I posted this in the other thread but feel it needs to be said here as well.
You guys that think the giants should be banned have a right to your opinion, but what about the dwarf locales that are grouped into the ban along with the mainlands? This ban affects me too not because I want to keep the giants (I do and don't) but because I want to keep their smaller brethren, and want to have some of the cool morphs that are currently available only from the big ones. By supporting the ban you are supporting the people that are trying to force their beliefs on the rest of us. In some instances, this is not a bad thing, however when your beliefs result in the limitation of the rights of free individuals, it IS a bad thing.
I understand the why, but that doesn't mean I agree with it.

[jaleely]

The gun thing was an ironic joke. Obviously...or i guess not obviously.

And yes, i do know a little about genetics, which is why i pointed out that breeding babies to their parents and etc etc is stupid. Yes it gets you morphs. No it does not breed healthy snakes in the long run, and a lot of times, in the short run. *rolls eyes*

You are kind of going off the deep end stephinbakir, you don't even live here.

[jaleely]

I'm canadian and I voted. I used the address of a friend. They don't check, and they dont care. All they think about is votes.

AH yes, clearly the way to go. You don't find this ironic at all? I mean, we're talking about irresponsible people who've made it annoying for the rest of us.

[jaleely]

How about we don't release any back at all (male or female) is what I'm getting at. I understand what you are saying the infertile male will compete with the fertile males for females... in the meantime the infertile male is still having an impact on the local ecology.

There's no guanrantee the infertile male will win courtship rights with the female... Females can mate with multiple males during the breeding season, one infertile the other fertile.. results still more snakes.

Easiest way let the public have their way and let them go on a invasive species killing spree... win win. They feel like they're doin something and there's a dent in the population. If we were going to spend money on the operation for sterilisation, half that and use it as a bounty for the snake. Quickest way to make a natural resource scarce.. put a value on it and don't restrict the take. Even at 10 bux a pop, there will be hunters out there who will take 10-20 a weekend to make that kind of cash.

It's the same tactics we are trying to use here... "shoot all ferals". Hunters wil hunt and rednecks will kill for kicks. Why not use their idiocy to your advantage, shift their mentality to go hunting and killing invasives.

Thank you. Couldn't have said any of that better. I really couldn't, i'm terrible at this lol
I just keep getting frustrated and resorting to calling everything stupid *lol*

[Will0W783]

WOW....I really wasn't on here much yesterday, as I spent the majority of my free time researching whatever I could to learn the details of the new ban (I still don't have many answers). I'm really frustrated and saddened that this is how our lawmakers and "representatives" chose to fight the Everglades problem. Yes, the wild pythons in the Everglades is a serious problem to our native ecosystem....but it is a problem there, and only there.

I am not against stricter regulation of the giant snake species....too many people buy them because they think it will be "cool" to have a massive, potentially deadly snake. Or they think it is neat to watch it kill and eat its food. These idiots should not be allowed to own a giant.,...or any snake for that matter. However, an all-out ban is not the answer in my opinion. Stupid people will still get the snakes black-market, and banning the pet trade will not fix the problems in the Everglades---it won't do a **** thing to help. It WILL prevent the majority of irresponsible owners from getting in over their heads, but it will also punish the people who would be responsible owners. I recognize that there has to be an enforcement of certain measures to protect our environment and our citizens, but look at prohibition, and the war on drugs. Are those really helping save lives? Nope. People are just doing illegally what they would do anyway.

I have thought for a long time that a tighter regulation on the larger potentially dangerous snake (and other reptile) species would be a good thing. This includes venomous also. In my state, anyone can walk into a reptile expo and leave with a giant python or a venomous snake...regardless of their level of experience and training. MOST vendors will ask questions to make sure you can handle a hot or a large snake, but people can lie. And some unscrupulous vendors wont' ask questions.
If you want to buy a gun, you have to first have a background check run, to make sure you are not guilty of any crimes or wrongdoings that would make you likely to commit a gun crime, and they make sure you are not mentally disabled or certified with any mental illnesses. Why not do something similar for hots and giant pythons?

Any person wishing to obtain one of these animals would have to attend a class, spend a certain number of hours of training, and fill out an application for a permit to own, similar to Florida's venomous regulations. It doesn't have to be 1000 hours, or whatever- the number of hours could be state-by-state regulated, or set at passing certain milestones and tests. You can't drive a car without first demonstrating that you are capable- why not make sure the people who are keeping the more likely to be dangerous reptile species are prepared and capable as well? I think this should be a general permit- not specific for each animal, but you could have to register how many you are keeping (whatever needs to be done for such a system to be effective), but it shouldn't be too terribly cost-prohibitive. Once you have a permit, you can take it to reptile expos and show it to vendors to purchase your animal. I think this would be much more effective than the all-out ban, and I've written about this to multiple senators and the president. It did little good so far, but if more of us adopted a stance where we WANT to help eradicate the problems in our community while still preserving our rights, we might get farther with the general public.

I sent out letters, emails, made calls, and did all I could during this campaign, and I will continue to speak out to fight for the animals I love. We ALL need to, especially now with the new elections coming up in 2012..

[youngster]

x2 to Kim.

[alessia55]

If you want to buy a gun, you have to first have a background check run, to make sure you are not guilty of any crimes or wrongdoings that would make you likely to commit a gun crime, and they make sure you are not mentally disabled or certified with any mental illnesses. Why not do something similar for hots and giant pythons?

Any person wishing to obtain one of these animals would have to attend a class, spend a certain number of hours of training, and fill out an application for a permit to own, similar to Florida's venomous regulations. It doesn't have to be 1000 hours, or whatever- the number of hours could be state-by-state regulated, or set at passing certain milestones and tests. You can't drive a car without first demonstrating that you are capable- why not make sure the people who are keeping the more likely to be dangerous reptile species are prepared and capable as well? I think this should be a general permit- not specific for each animal, but you could have to register how many you are keeping (whatever needs to be done for such a system to be effective), but it shouldn't be too terribly cost-prohibitive. Once you have a permit, you can take it to reptile expos and show it to vendors to purchase your animal. I think this would be much more effective than the all-out ban
This is what I would propose as the better way to go about controlling big snakes (particularly in Florida, where I'm from). In addition, I would say it would be helpful to have regulations as to safe-keeping of the big snake, such as using a particular caging/locking system, etc. Microchipping would help in that if the snake got out, it could be returned/taken away, and the person (ir)responsible for be fined, have their permit suspended, etc.

Unfortunately, the so-called "leaders" behind the ban don't know much at all about the big snakes. They see "burmese pythons are destroying the Everglades," so "lets restrict burmese pythons everywhere!" :no:

[Rogue628]

WOW....I really wasn't on here much yesterday, as I spent the majority of my free time researching whatever I could to learn the details of the new ban (I still don't have many answers). I'm really frustrated and saddened that this is how our lawmakers and "representatives" chose to fight the Everglades problem. Yes, the wild pythons in the Everglades is a serious problem to our native ecosystem....but it is a problem there, and only there.

I am not against stricter regulation of the giant snake species....too many people buy them because they think it will be "cool" to have a massive, potentially deadly snake. Or they think it is neat to watch it kill and eat its food. These idiots should not be allowed to own a giant.,...or any snake for that matter. However, an all-out ban is not the answer in my opinion. Stupid people will still get the snakes black-market, and banning the pet trade will not fix the problems in the Everglades---it won't do a **** thing to help. It WILL prevent the majority of irresponsible owners from getting in over their heads, but it will also punish the people who would be responsible owners. I recognize that there has to be an enforcement of certain measures to protect our environment and our citizens, but look at prohibition, and the war on drugs. Are those really helping save lives? Nope. People are just doing illegally what they would do anyway.

I have thought for a long time that a tighter regulation on the larger potentially dangerous snake (and other reptile) species would be a good thing. This includes venomous also. In my state, anyone can walk into a reptile expo and leave with a giant python or a venomous snake...regardless of their level of experience and training. MOST vendors will ask questions to make sure you can handle a hot or a large snake, but people can lie. And some unscrupulous vendors wont' ask questions.
If you want to buy a gun, you have to first have a background check run, to make sure you are not guilty of any crimes or wrongdoings that would make you likely to commit a gun crime, and they make sure you are not mentally disabled or certified with any mental illnesses. Why not do something similar for hots and giant pythons?

Any person wishing to obtain one of these animals would have to attend a class, spend a certain number of hours of training, and fill out an application for a permit to own, similar to Florida's venomous regulations. It doesn't have to be 1000 hours, or whatever- the number of hours could be state-by-state regulated, or set at passing certain milestones and tests. You can't drive a car without first demonstrating that you are capable- why not make sure the people who are keeping the more likely to be dangerous reptile species are prepared and capable as well? I think this should be a general permit- not specific for each animal, but you could have to register how many you are keeping (whatever needs to be done for such a system to be effective), but it shouldn't be too terribly cost-prohibitive. Once you have a permit, you can take it to reptile expos and show it to vendors to purchase your animal. I think this would be much more effective than the all-out ban, and I've written about this to multiple senators and the president. It did little good so far, but if more of us adopted a stance where we WANT to help eradicate the problems in our community while still preserving our rights, we might get farther with the general public.

I sent out letters, emails, made calls, and did all I could during this campaign, and I will continue to speak out to fight for the animals I love. We ALL need to, especially now with the new elections coming up in 2012..

Agree 100%

[stephanbakir]

AH yes, clearly the way to go. You don't find this ironic at all? I mean, we're talking about irresponsible people who've made it annoying for the rest of us.

I am moving to the states in a few months... so yes.. I have a right to voice my opinion.

I agree Kim.

[marvelfreak]

I still don't get how the heck yellow Anacondas are on there, but not Greens?
That got me pissed. Any time i ever seen anything about someone getting attacked by a Anaconda it's always Greens not Yellow.

Anyway if they truly want to save the Everglades and the Florida natural wildlife they need to do a couple things.

1) STOP building new homes in the Everglades and along the out skirts of the Everglades.

2) STOP the number one killer of Florida's wildlife "Humans" aka "Florida Residences". I mean truthfully this is the number one killer. With the exception of Native Americas we are all indigestion to the U.S.

The fix force everyone to move out of the state and turn the whole state into a natural reserve. I

[red ink]

I have thought for a long time that a tighter regulation on the larger potentially dangerous snake (and other reptile) species would be a good thing. This includes venomous also. In my state, anyone can walk into a reptile expo and leave with a giant python or a venomous snake...regardless of their level of experience and training. MOST vendors will ask questions to make sure you can handle a hot or a large snake, but people can lie. And some unscrupulous vendors wont' ask questions.
If you want to buy a gun, you have to first have a background check run, to make sure you are not guilty of any crimes or wrongdoings that would make you likely to commit a gun crime, and they make sure you are not mentally disabled or certified with any mental illnesses. Why not do something similar for hots and giant pythons?

Any person wishing to obtain one of these animals would have to attend a class, spend a certain number of hours of training, and fill out an application for a permit to own, similar to Florida's venomous regulations. It doesn't have to be 1000 hours, or whatever- the number of hours could be state-by-state regulated, or set at passing certain milestones and tests. You can't drive a car without first demonstrating that you are capable- why not make sure the people who are keeping the more likely to be dangerous reptile species are prepared and capable as well? I think this should be a general permit- not specific for each animal, but you could have to register how many you are keeping (whatever needs to be done for such a system to be effective), but it shouldn't be too terribly cost-prohibitive. Once you have a permit, you can take it to reptile expos and show it to vendors to purchase your animal. I think this would be much more effective than the all-out ban, and I've written about this to multiple senators and the president. It did little good so far, but if more of us adopted a stance where we WANT to help eradicate the problems in our community while still preserving our rights, we might get farther with the general public.

I sent out letters, emails, made calls, and did all I could during this campaign, and I will continue to speak out to fight for the animals I love. We ALL need to, especially now with the new elections coming up in 2012..

That system works for us.... ;)

On top of that there are some species I can not keep in my state as they are not under my licenced species list to keep but are available in other states... We live with it, we learn, we cope (effectively a ban on certain species). It ain't that bad in all honesty.

As I understand if you already own it when and if the proposed ban goes through you get to keep it anyway just not breed it...

The one thing this bill should be targeting across the board as in all reptile species is stopping pet stores from selling them, at least have a strict licence system to do so... again this is what we have in place. Legal to sell reptiles in pet stores in some states but only a few selected species, totally illegal in others.

[jaleely]

I am moving to the states in a few months... so yes.. I have a right to voice my opinion.

I agree Kim.

You have all the right, clearly, to say whatever opinion floats your boat. I don't think it's appropriate you use someone else's information to do it. You don't find that a tad bit dishonest? Kind of shadows all the "good" you're supposed to be doing, doesn't it? You don't think that makes the rest of us look bad and like "crazy snake people"?

[alessia55]

Not sure if you guys have seen this website, or how much it's actually worth, but I signed the petition. Over turn the python ban | Change.org (http://www.change.org/petitions/over-turn-the-python-ban-over-turn-the-python-ban-from-1-17-12#)

[Kayla90]

Not sure if you guys have seen this website, or how much it's actually worth, but I signed the petition. Over turn the python ban | Change.org (http://www.change.org/petitions/over-turn-the-python-ban-over-turn-the-python-ban-from-1-17-12#)

You can also sign this if you live outside the states as well. So I've signed and posted it on facebook..

[Rogue628]

Not sure who said it, but I agree there should be tighter regulations on larger animals or even those that are not for beginners.

I'm sure responsible keepers would have no problem acquiring special license or permits to have these animals *as long as the gubberment doesn't demand an arm, leg, and more for them. Maybe even a sort of tier system that encompasses breeding and selling.

Now that I think of it, I think most states, including my own already have some permits and licensing that are required, yet it's not regulated so either noone knows about them or chose to ignore them because there's not enough of a penalty/fine or it's not regulated properly by the state wildlife and fisheries division, like in my state.

Either way, regardless of the ban or even a better regulation on animals, people are still going to buy, sell, and transport these animals illegally. But at least with better regulation we can hope to keep that down to a smaller number.

And I still don't get how they think this ban is going to help the Florida Everglades. After all, that's what the ban is about right? Maybe someone can explain it to me or correct me if I'm wrong.....

The way the US is starting to become, other countries are beginning to look better and better....

[Strutter769]

The Humane Society had this to say: The Way Washington Works - Wayne Pacelle: A Humane Nation (http://hsus.typepad.com/wayne/2012/01/constrictor-snake-news.html)

[Strutter769]

You can also sign this if you live outside the states as well. So I've signed and posted it on facebook..

I too have signed and FB'd. Just sayin'.

[Rogue628]

There's a petition on the Whitehouse website to overturn this ban that can destroy a pretty big chunk of the reptile industry... so sign it and pass it on to all of your friends on facebook, twitter, and other herp forums.

The petition can be found here: https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petition...4Y#thank-you=p

You do need to make an account if you don't already have one. There's a goal of 25,000 signatures, so every person counts.

[Strutter769]

I get a "404 Page Not Found"

[BarelyBreathing]

I get a "404 Page Not Found"

I did, as well.

[beardeds4life]

There's a petition on the Whitehouse website to overturn this ban that can destroy a pretty big chunk of the reptile industry... so sign it and pass it on to all of your friends on facebook, twitter, and other herp forums.

The petition can be found here: https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petition...4Y#thank-you=p

You do need to make an account if you don't already have one. There's a goal of 25,000 signatures, so every person counts.

The goal was 25,000 for the other position but we BARELY reached 9,000 this is pathetic :mad:

I got a 404 page not found to

[Rogue628]

Don't know why it's file not found. It was there just a couple of minutes ago. Maybe too much traffic? :confused:

[Rogue628]

Ok, somehow I buggered the link. Sorry!

https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/overturn-python-ban/4wGFbc4Y#thank-you=p

[alessia55]

is it my link that you guys are having trouble with? here it is again: Animals Petition: over turn the python ban: over turn the python ban from 1-17-12 | Change.org (http://www.change.org/petitions/over-turn-the-python-ban-over-turn-the-python-ban-from-1-17-12#)

[Rogue628]

I'll post again...just went to it to make sure it's a good link

https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/overturn-python-ban/4wGFbc4Y#thank-you=p

[marvelfreak]

Thanks both of you i just signed both.

Alessia it was Roques link they were having problems with. Now it working fine.

[Aaron_S]

I still believe people should let this go through. I WOULD also be content if they amend the bill based on size and not species. We have here in my city a 3 metre by-law. That's 10 feet. That fits all reasonable species in there with plenty of options for "giants" without a lot of danger.

I believe someone asked the question in regards to dwarfs and their colour mutations. They'd all be banned. Not only do the dwarfs not have a different scientific name yet, but when breeding these morphs into the the smaller versions, they don't really stay all that small anyway.

[stephanbakir]

I still believe people should let this go through. I WOULD also be content if they amend the bill based on size and not species. We have here in my city a 3 metre by-law. That's 10 feet. That fits all reasonable species in there with plenty of options for "giants" without a lot of danger.

I believe someone asked the question in regards to dwarfs and their colour mutations. They'd all be banned. Not only do the dwarfs not have a different scientific name yet, but when breeding these morphs into the the smaller versions, they don't really stay all that small anyway.
Specific locales do stay quite small, and just like Jay is working on the snow project to get the snow gene from super dwarf to fullsized retics, there are people working on getting full sized genes into super dwarves.
If you get a super dwarf from some backyard breeder, it will range from 7-12 feet for females and 7-10 feet for males. If you had a brain and spent 50$ more on a quality animal, you can be sure the females wont pass 8 feet, and the males wont pass 6... unless you powerfeed the thing.

[alessia55]

This kid is young but he knows what he's talking about, and it's nice to see such young people getting involved. Yes he has his ball python around his neck which I know most of you are against, but the video content itself is really good.

-Ga8qeBTlu0&feature=related

[millertime89]

Specific locales do stay quite small, and just like Jay is working on the snow project to get the snow gene from super dwarf to fullsized retics, there are people working on getting full sized genes into super dwarves.
If you get a super dwarf from some backyard breeder, it will range from 7-12 feet for females and 7-10 feet for males. If you had a brain and spent 50$ more on a quality animal, you can be sure the females wont pass 8 feet, and the males wont pass 6... unless you powerfeed the thing.

Stephen is right, however I am more inclined to support the size restriction than a species ban, I still wouldn't be too happy about it because oftentimes the best morphs are found with the mainlands and not the island locales (a result of evolution)

I also posted this:
HSUS representatives and supporters,
The majority of the pythons that are involved in the pet trade are captive bred and born animals that have never suffered the hardship of overseas flight or long distance travel. In fact, the majority of the burmese pythons that are now roaming the everglades are descendants from to parent animals that escaped during Hurricane Andrew and can be genetically traced back.
to the HSUS article about the ban here.
The Way Washington Works - Wayne Pacelle: A Humane Nation (http://hsus.typepad.com/wayne/2012/01/constrictor-snake-news.html)http://i447.photobucket.com/albums/qq191/KKMpunkrock2011/HSUS.jpg

[stephanbakir]

9ckxa3n5gaq

[millertime89]

People that support the ban:
I understand why you feel the way you do, even if I don't agree with it. I don't ask that you change your opinion, I only ask that you understand why we feel the way we do and that you keep your opinion to yourselves at this time. While many of us that do like the large constrictors agree that many people are not capable of properly caring for these large snakes, we feel that it is our right to keep them and we ask that you not support the people that are trying to force their opinions on us. We feel that this is a slippery slope and once they get going, it won't stop with the 9+ footers, there have been several instances where people in positions of power have mentioned ball pythons as future targets, and if they go after the BPs, where will they stop?
Finally this ban is completely unenforceable and the government has better things to do than put hard working breeders out of business and make felons out of people that move and wish to take their pet with them.

My fellow ban fighters, attacking the people with opposing views is not how we are going to win this fight. Logic, reason, and sound science are our allies at this point. Please use them and try to keep a level head despite what they other side might say.

[red ink]

Specific locales do stay quite small, and just like Jay is working on the snow project to get the snow gene from super dwarf to fullsized retics, there are people working on getting full sized genes into super dwarves.
If you get a super dwarf from some backyard breeder, it will range from 7-12 feet for females and 7-10 feet for males. If you had a brain and spent 50$ more on a quality animal, you can be sure the females wont pass 8 feet, and the males wont pass 6... unless you powerfeed the thing.

How does one tell if that particular specimen is definitely from that specific locale and will only grow to this specific size as a hatchling, even worse what if it was a morph of the specific locale that looks nothing like the holotype?

[exwizard]

People that support the ban:
I understand why you feel the way you do, even if I don't agree with it. I don't ask that you change your opinion, I only ask that you understand why we feel the way we do and that you keep your opinion to yourselves at this time. While many of us that do like the large constrictors agree that many people are not capable of properly caring for these large snakes, we feel that it is our right to keep them and we ask that you not support the people that are trying to force their opinions on us. We feel that this is a slippery slope and once they get going, it won't stop with the 9+ footers, there have been several instances where people in positions of power have mentioned ball pythons as future targets, and if they go after the BPs, where will they stop?
Finally this ban is completely unenforceable and the government has better things to do than put hard working breeders out of business and make felons out of people that move and wish to take their pet with them.

My fellow ban fighters, attacking the people with opposing views is not how we are going to win this fight. Logic, reason, and sound science are our allies at this point. Please use them and try to keep a level head despite what they other side might say.

I took a class that allowed me to get a permit making it legal for me to keep large constrictors here in Des Moines as long as they are not Anacondas, Retics or Rock Pythons. I do not favor any more restrictions than whats already in place. This class teaches you what makes a responsible owner of a large snake and in that regard is a good thing but I know of people in other cities who were forced to give up their collection of 40 ball pythons because their city ordinance was worded "venomous or constricting snakes". How extreme is that?! Anyway, I hope it never gets to that and I do hope that these latest restrictions get overturned as well.

[Rogue628]

I personally have no problem with having restrictions or tighter regulations of the larger animals. If I need to take a class in order to get a permit or license just to keep my animals, I'm fine with it as long as the gubberment doesn't ask for my arm, leg, and first born child (although sometimes I'd love for someone to take her lol j/k :D ) I'm even fine with taking classes and getting other permits or licenses to breed to sell to the general public even as a private collector.

There are waaaaay too many people who buy these *cute little snakes* as babies, only to be overwhelmed with their size or even their temperments within a year or so and let them go. There are too many irresponsible people in our industry (not just with big snakes, but all animals). Needing a permit or license just to be able to purchase certain animals would help alot more than what this ban is attempting to do. However nothing is going to work 100% as in any situation, there's always going underground/black market. Unfortunately I see more animals going the underground route with this ban than with heavier regulations.

It's a really sad situation with animals getting caught in the crossfire. How many are now going to be dumped when people have to move? How many people are going to become felons for taking their animals with them when they move (if they're found out)?

I think there's a much bigger picture that's going to happen than what we're seeing now. This ban is going to eventually bite alot of officials in the butt. There are better ways, they just don't want to make it work...too much time and effort they have to put forth.

[red ink]

I need a permit to purchase a bearded dragon and I have to renew that permit annually in order to continue keeping it. I also have to send back a census form of all the animals in my possesion each year, how many are alive, how many have died, how many I've bred and how many I have sold to other licenced individuals.

[exwizard]

I need a permit to purchase a bearded dragon and I have to renew that permit annually in order to continue keeping it. I also have to send back a census form of all the animals in my possesion each year, how many are alive, how many have died, how many I've bred and how many I have sold to other licenced individuals.

Yeah, Big Brother at work.

[Aaron_S]

Red Ink I like your question. To follow in your wake, people need to realize island locales generally are small IN THE WILD because they are on an island with very limited food sources. When Jampea retics came in people claimed they were 12 foot max. Tell that to the people who had 16 foot females. Also, I would like to point out that snakes grow forever. They don't "max" out. They get to a size and slow down a considerable rate of growth.

Millertime, you ask that I don't voice my opinion so YOU can voice YOURS to win your argument? Talk about hypocrite. You're allowed to do something but I am not. You're forcing your opinions on us. It is my opinion that this needs to go through and I have NO problem fighting for that. I take great offense to you thinking I DON'T know why you don't want this ban.

I'd also like quotes in regards to shutting down ball pythons too.

[millertime89]

I need a permit to purchase a bearded dragon and I have to renew that permit annually in order to continue keeping it. I also have to send back a census form of all the animals in my possesion each year, how many are alive, how many have died, how many I've bred and how many I have sold to other licenced individuals.

I'm ok with that.

[exwizard]

Red Ink I like your question. To follow in your wake, people need to realize island locales generally are small IN THE WILD because they are on an island with very limited food sources. When Jampea retics came in people claimed they were 12 foot max. Tell that to the people who had 16 foot females. Also, I would like to point out that snakes grow forever. They don't "max" out. They get to a size and slow down a considerable rate of growth.

Millertime, you ask that I don't voice my opinion so YOU can voice YOURS to win your argument? Talk about hypocrite. You're allowed to do something but I am not. You're forcing your opinions on us. It is my opinion that this needs to go through and I have NO problem fighting for that. I take great offense to you thinking I DON'T know why you don't want this ban.

I'd also like quotes in regards to shutting down ball pythons too.

Ok before I say anything, you are entiltled to your opinion just like everyone else. That having been said, its easy to say youre for this ban when it doesnt affect you since you live in Canada. With this ban, I cant buy snakes in St Louis, Kansas City or even Omaha, a city only 2 hours from here. This I dont understand. Ill either have to go underground to get my snakes or be limited to what Des Moines has to offer since there are no other reptile shows in Iowa. Can you explain to me why this ban should go forward from a point of logic?

[red ink]

Yeah, Big Brother at work.

Yeah... price we pay for a bit of peice of mind that a 13 year old can't walk into a petshop and buy a 2 foot long Morelia kinghornii on impulse only have it turn into a 15 foot tempremental beast a few years down the track.

By having a permit system it also gives them the right by law to inspect your collection at their discretion. If the collection and husbandry is found unsuitable they have the right to cancel your license and take all of them. It is set under the license conditions.

[Aaron_S]

Point of logic? They are dangerous animals. Case closed. I would be for this ban even in Canada so that isn't an excuse.

I don't believe the border restrictions should be included but as I said before I'm ok with amendments. I wish for the animals to be banned. Large snakes are not easy to care for or handle solo, no matter who you are or what you think. I know this first hand.

[BarelyBreathing]

By that logic, so are cats and dogs. Should there be a cat and dog ban, too?

[exwizard]

Point of logic? They are dangerous animals. Case closed. I would be for this ban even in Canada so that isn't an excuse.

I don't believe the border restrictions should be included but as I said before I'm ok with amendments. I wish for the animals to be banned. Large snakes are not easy to care for or handle solo, no matter who you are or what you think. I know this first hand.

I understand your opinion even though I dont agree with it. Btw, this ban only restricts interstate transportation of these animals so that doesnt solve the problem at all.

I had to take a class to get a permit to be able to have Black Betty. She is NOT dangerous to me or anyone else. She is tame as can be or I wouldnt have her. Im not going to repeat how I feel about snakes I cant handle since I have said this in numerous other posts.

The problem lies if we needed to relocate to another state. Then the choice is to go underground and be a felon or give up my entire collection. Thats a tough choice.

[Norm66]

By that logic, so are cats and dogs. Should there be a cat and dog ban, too?

- Call for U.S. to Ban a major wildlife threat! (http://www.kingsnake.com/blog/archives/784-Call-for-U.S.-to-Ban-a-major-wildlife-threat!.html#.TxdtIhlZC1z.facebook)

Posted without comment.

[Aaron_S]

They already do have cat and dog bans. Pitbulls as well as tigers,lions,jaguars etc. Those are all cats too. GIANT cats actually. Just like GIANT snakes are up in the air to be banned.

That is a dumeril's boa. To my knowledge they aren't in the paperwork to be banned. As I have stated, I would like a size amendment where those snakes AREN'T included. If you have to move states then move a state that keeps boids or don't move at all? All I can say.

I won't touch on the fact I wouldn't trust any snake to be "tame".

[millertime89]

They already do have cat and dog bans. Pitbulls as well as tigers,lions,jaguars etc. Those are all cats too. GIANT cats actually. Just like GIANT snakes are up in the air to be banned.

That is a dumeril's boa. To my knowledge they aren't in the paperwork to be banned. As I have stated, I would like a size amendment where those snakes AREN'T included. If you have to move states then move a state that keeps boids or don't move at all? All I can say.

I won't touch on the fact I wouldn't trust any snake to be "tame".

He was getting at the fact that domestic cats are a huge nuisance and domestic dogs, regardless of breed, can be just as tempermental and dangerous as a large boid.

[exwizard]

She is 9 1/2' long and Idc if you dont touch on the fact that any snake can be tame. Yes shes a Dum but an exceptionally large one.

Why is it that Iowa has banned even the SD retics in their ever inclusive "Anaconda, Reticulated Python and Rock Python" ban and yet the Burms and Amethistines are totally legal? Its because these laws were written by emotional politicians who dont know what theyre doing. Again this is my opinion

[Aaron_S]

Domestic dogs are banned. Pitbulls.

Are domestic cats 120 pounds and 16 feet of pure muscle? No. Bring some logic closer to the target. A 3 pound cat would have a ridiculously hard time killing me. A 120 pound snake? Quite a bit easier if it wants to.

[BarelyBreathing]

Domestic, household cats are invasive species that are devistating to our natural wildlife in EVERY state of the US. Also, there is no statewide pit bull ban, only city ordinances. There's a pit bull ban in Denver, but I live just outside of it with my pit bull. If I move across state lines, I can bring her with me and not be a felon. Still, I am against this ban. It isn't the dog's fault, nor is it the snake's fault. I wouldn't entirely disagree with a permit system on large pythons or boas. I already hold several permits. I just don't agree with the logic and reasoning behind this current ban. I don't think that responsible keepers should be considered outlaws if they move across state lines and want to keep their beloved pet with them.

[Aaron_S]

Exwizard, I have said again and again a size amendment would be most ideal. I am for that which would change Iowa's laws as well as keep your snakes safe.

[Aaron_S]

I know what pitbull bans are. Again you said they should be banned by my logic. They are, even in one place, banned up here too. Proves my point that there are bans on dogs.

Also, responsible keepers of pitbulls are outlaws in these areas of the bans. The same will be for the snakes. Just sucks to be them.

[red ink]

I'm ok with that.


Yeah.. me too, in fact I prefer it to open slather ;).

[BarelyBreathing]

- Call for U.S. to Ban a major wildlife threat! (http://www.kingsnake.com/blog/archives/784-Call-for-U.S.-to-Ban-a-major-wildlife-threat!.html#.TxdtIhlZC1z.facebook)

Posted without comment.


This is great. Thanks for posting.

[alessia55]

Ah... I try to avoid this topic but the pitbull ban is ridiculous. It's "the deed, not the breed." Banning pitbulls does not solve the problem of pitbull fighting dogs. I work in a shelter rehabilitating pitbulls that were previously fighting dogs. Targeting animals in these situations does NOT solve the problem. Same logic applies to giant snakes. Most (if not all) of the burmese pythons in the Everglades (40mins from my house, btw, and I've been to quite a few of the city meetings about this) are not released pets by irresponsible owners (as the press sometimes likes to have people believe), but rather most of them can be linked as breeding lines that are from two facilities that used to have burmese pythons in south florida that were wiped out during Hurricane Andrew. They should be removing the wild burmese pythons that they find in the Everglades (which they're doing a poor job at), and they should make stricter regulations about keeping big snakes, and fine/punish the people who do not abide by them. But banning the burmese python, rock python, and yellow anaconda will only create a black market and worsen the problem. Sigh :no:

[Gungirl]

I wish I could like your post Alessia... I would love it if we had a button for that also!

[Aaron_S]

Alessia, I understand pitbull bans but they aren't the topic of discussion here. I use it as proof that a domestic dog has been banned.

Secondly, I don't get where people say it'll just worsen the problems we're having. If you can't just walk into a pet store and buy any of these animals how does this worsen the problem?

Someone pointed out on another forum I belong to that we had our chance to police ourselves. We failed. The bad apples ruined it for all of you good, responsible keepers. Blame them.

I will say that I have yet to hear someone debate my safety argument if one of these got out on their own and someone ended up in my dwelling and injured myself or a loved one. I will put it out there, if any child died due to someone wanting to keep their pet do you think it's fair to the parents who had to bury that child? No. Put yourselves in those people's shoes before you ONLY think of yourself and YOUR wants when fighting this ban.

[alessia55]

Alessia, I understand pitbull bans but they aren't the topic of discussion here. I use it as proof that a domestic dog has been banned.
I brought it up only because you brought it up as a parallel or similar argument.

Secondly, I don't get where people say it'll just worsen the problems we're having. If you can't just walk into a pet store and buy any of these animals how does this worsen the problem?
With the ban, it won't be illegal to buy burmese pythons within the state. So people can still just as easily acquire them so long as they find a breeder near them. The reason I said banning them would worsen the problem is because it'll create a black market and then regulation really will be out the door.

Someone pointed out on another forum I belong to that we had our chance to police ourselves. We failed. The bad apples ruined it for all of you good, responsible keepers. Blame them.
Just because there are a few bad apples out there, it doesn't mean we should all pay for their actions. As I said, I think it would be better to make stricter rules and regulations about buying/selling/keeping giant snakes (read back to Kim's post) that will enhance the pool of giant snake keepers, and fine/punish the bad apples.

I will say that I have yet to hear someone debate my safety argument if one of these got out on their own and someone ended up in my dwelling and injured myself or a loved one. I will put it out there, if any child died due to someone wanting to keep their pet do you think it's fair to the parents who had to bury that child? No. Put yourselves in those people's shoes before you ONLY think of yourself and YOUR wants when fighting this ban.
No, it is not fair to the parent who loses their child to someone's pet... but neither is the parent who loses their child to that drunk driver, the driver who was texting and driving, the angry man with a gun, etc. That doesn't mean we should ban driving, drinking, or owning a gun all together, does it?

Lets keep it civilized here :cool:

[KORBIN5895]

Fiscally this ban is rediculous. It is going to be a huge money pit. It will not be enforced the way they have it setup now.

To those that worry about being a felon for transporting these animals interstate: I myself don't see it as a big deal at the moment. Honestly what will they do setup check points on the state borders. Please! They aren't going to be checking to see where they came from.

We all seem to be thinking worst case scenario here. If the idiots amongst us didn't mess it up for us we would be fine. Lets not say poor breeders when it was the breeders who sold the idiot (or sold the to the pet store) the snake you find eating your cat in your basement. Lets blame them who are to blame and long our Congressmen and representatives with useful ways to make this work. The ban is here now like it or not.

[red ink]

With the ban, it won't be illegal to buy burmese pythons within the state. So people can still just as easily acquire them so long as they find a breeder near them. The reason I said banning them would worsen the problem is because it'll create a black market and then regulation really will be out the door.


That's actually a sad social comment on the reptile hobby.....

Just because there are a few bad apples out there, it doesn't mean we should all pay for their actions. As I said, I think it would be better to make stricter rules and regulations about buying/selling/keeping giant snakes (read back to Kim's post) that will enhance the pool of giant snake keepers, and fine/punish the bad apples.

If banning them as you say will create a black market and taking the regulations out the door. Would be fair to say that if people are prepared to create a black market for them a few strict regulations isn't going to amount to anything either....

It would be good for the responsible keepers, but it does'nt solve the peoblems of the bad ones. Which is effectively what the ban is trying to do. It's a bit like throwing the baby out with the bath water, but unfortunately it's a baby they are willing to sacrifice.

No, it is not fair to the parent who loses their child to someone's pet... but neither is the parent who loses their child to that drunk driver, the driver who was texting and driving, the angry man with a gun, etc. That doesn't mean we should ban driving, drinking, or owning a gun all together, does it?


I'm not trying to argue here and I understand the point your trying to make with this... But all thise things you mentioned are illegal, therefore effectively a "ban". All those scenario those people are breaking the law by commiting something they are banned from doing and the result is someone dying.

Lets keep it civilized here :cool:

Agreed, hopefully I'm not being rude in my comments, I'm just throwing some points out there.

[BarelyBreathing]

Everything mentioned except drunk driving are perfectly legal here.

[BarelyBreathing]

Let me elaborate. Obviously it isn't legal to go around shooting people. However, I'm sure there are more guns in America than snakes.

[Aaron_S]

Red Ink, you make very valid points.

I believe that the reptile hobby is already a bit of a black market. To my knowledge there already are regulations set in Florida for dangerous animals, may be for giants but I know for venomous snakes they do.

Guns are banned here in Canada. Driving is heavily regulated and you goto jail for breaking those 'regulations'. Drinking is also heavily regulated here in Canada. You need to pass a course to serve alcohol and be able to cut people off. As Red Ink says, all of that is technically banned already. Just as I said earlier. The giant keepers had their chance, they blew it. Time to pay.

[Aaron_S]

Everything mentioned except drunk driving are perfectly legal here.

Really? I don't need a background check to buy a gun or a permit to conceal to carry one? That's just legal eh? Those are variations of bans. Just as I have mentioned my stance is for. Amendments to an outright ban.

[BarelyBreathing]

There is a difference between permitted and outright banned.

I've already mentioned where I stand on this. I don't agree with large constrictors being "banned". I do, however, feel a permit system wouldn't harm the hobby.

[millertime89]

Giants are already banned in Florida, they had a permit system until a year or two ago but went to an outright ban all together.
I don't feel like typing my entire rebuttle out again, but this article contains all the info I use already. Aaron I respect your opinion but really think you should read this.
This what it has come to… « Student of the Reptile (http://studentofthereptile.wordpress.com/2012/01/18/43/#comment-11)

[KORBIN5895]

Really? I don't need a background check to buy a gun or a permit to conceal to carry one? That's just legal eh? Those are variations of bans. Just as I have mentioned my stance is for. Amendments to an outright ban.

When I lived in IL a black powder rifle or pistol was not considered a firearm. So technically you didn't need a background check, a permit or be a certain age to purchase one.

[Aaron_S]

I read through that Kyle and again it's the same stuff over and over. I get it. I really do. Giants should be banned. They say it wasn't people releasing snakes but they haven't tested every single snake, have they? If it wasn't for people wanting them so much as pets then why would they be imported?They talk about how no albino or mutation has been found in the wild. Pretty hard for any albino to stay alive with that kind of colouring in a very green/brown environment. This was swayed to show one side. Just like the politicians.

They were banned for good reason. I'm not opposed to amending this but I still stand by the fact at least green anacondas,retics, burmese, african rock pythons should all be banned. Out right. Barring possible dwarf variants.

In the first couple paragraphs it states the market is very difficult for giants as it stands so why should they be allowed to be kept still and bred? Hmm, too hard to find people to GIVE away these eventual "unwanted" pets but yet everyone still wants to keep/breed them? Kind of odd.

Lastly, at the end it was all about scare tactics again. My sugar gliders and giant danios will be banned next!

[red ink]

I read through that Kyle and again it's the same stuff over and over. I get it. I really do. Giants should be banned. They say it wasn't people releasing snakes but they haven't tested every single snake, have they? If it wasn't for people wanting them so much as pets then why would they be imported?They talk about how no albino or mutation has been found in the wild. Pretty hard for any albino to stay alive with that kind of colouring in a very green/brown environment. This was swayed to show one side. Just like the politicians.

They were banned for good reason. I'm not opposed to amending this but I still stand by the fact at least green anacondas,retics, burmese, african rock pythons should all be banned. Out right. Barring possible dwarf variants.

In the first couple paragraphs it states the market is very difficult for giants as it stands so why should they be allowed to be kept still and bred? Hmm, too hard to find people to GIVE away these eventual "unwanted" pets but yet everyone still wants to keep/breed them? Kind of odd.

Lastly, at the end it was all about scare tactics again. My sugar gliders and giant danios will be banned next!


Looks like the issue of banning these snakes have been going on for years and USARK has been fighting them at every step....

What I would like to know is... was a compromise ever proposed by USARK?

Now on this thread we are also talking about stricter guidelines, has USARK proposed something like this to congress or did they just rally on the emotions of reptile keepers?

Giants are already banned in Florida, they had a permit system until a year or two ago but went to an outright ban all together.
I don't feel like typing my entire rebuttle out again, but this article contains all the info I use already. Aaron I respect your opinion but really think you should read this.
This what it has come to… « Student of the Reptile


What was the reason for Florida scraping the permit system and moving to an outright ban?

[red ink]

Really? I don't need a background check to buy a gun or a permit to conceal to carry one? That's just legal eh? Those are variations of bans. Just as I have mentioned my stance is for. Amendments to an outright ban.

As I understand it is a constitional right to "bear arms"... it is however not to bear a burmese python. In the legalities of what they can and can not ban... banning a species and ammending constitutional law are'nt even in the same league let alone the same ballpark.

[millertime89]

I read through that Kyle and again it's the same stuff over and over. I get it. I really do. Giants should be banned. They say it wasn't people releasing snakes but they haven't tested every single snake, have they? If it wasn't for people wanting them so much as pets then why would they be imported?They talk about how no albino or mutation has been found in the wild. Pretty hard for any albino to stay alive with that kind of colouring in a very green/brown environment. This was swayed to show one side. Just like the politicians.

I think what you're asking is completely unrealistic. If they had the means of testing every single snake then they would've killed every single snake. I'm sure there are some escaped/released pets out there, but they clearly make up the minority since the warehouse that housed approximately 1000 burmese pythons that escaped and now make up the bulk of the invasive population.

They were banned for good reason. I'm not opposed to amending this but I still stand by the fact at least green anacondas,retics, burmese, african rock pythons should all be banned. Out right. Barring possible dwarf variants.

the problem with this is the dwarfs (and there are a lot of them, especially in the retic camp) are not recognized as separate subspecies.

In the first couple paragraphs it states the market is very difficult for giants as it stands so why should they be allowed to be kept still and bred? Hmm, too hard to find people to GIVE away these eventual "unwanted" pets but yet everyone still wants to keep/breed them? Kind of odd.

its easy to sell them and give them away when they're little. But try and get someone to take a large snake from someone that you probably just met that you don't know the temperament or the conditions in which it was kept. Not so easy I would imagine.

Lastly, at the end it was all about scare tactics again. My sugar gliders and giant danios will be banned next!

if HSUS and PETA had their way (or the state of California for that mater), they will be.

Looks like the issue of banning these snakes have been going on for years and USARK has been fighting them at every step....

What I would like to know is... was a compromise ever proposed by USARK?

Now on this thread we are also talking about stricter guidelines, has USARK proposed something like this to congress or did they just rally on the emotions of reptile keepers?

What was the reason for Florida scraping the permit system and moving to an outright ban?

I wish I could answer those questions, but I simply can't. I do know that USARK has had their back against the wall since day one, I don't know if they've been able to propose a compromise. I don't know if you know much about the HSUS or PETA, but they aren't exactly ones to compromise. They're still clamoring for every exotic species (birds, mammals, reptiles, amphibians, fish, and insects) to be banned completely.

[Aaron_S]

Kyle are you seriously telling me that without some time those dwarfs couldn't be considered sub species in their own right?

Ask Red Ink said. A compromise must happen. It seems like they won't give up going after this bill so giant keepers are going to have to give something up.

These statements were posted on another forum and I'm going to repost them here.

You may not like it but there is only one group to blame - Irresponsible Reptile Hobbyists.


If hobbyists can't responsibly keep herps then maybe there should be a ban.


The government isn't doing this to be dicks (if they were they'd ban all reptiles).


Keeping pet reptiles is a privilege not a right, if you can't do it responsibly then you risk the chance of ruining it for everybody.

[red ink]

I wish I could answer those questions, but I simply can't. I do know that USARK has had their back against the wall since day one, I don't know if they've been able to propose a compromise. I don't know if you know much about the HSUS or PETA, but they aren't exactly ones to compromise. They're still clamoring for every exotic species (birds, mammals, reptiles, amphibians, fish, and insects) to be banned completely.


Fair enough mate... But we do have those fanatics here as well and our laws in regards to wildlife are a lot stricter than over there.

its easy to sell them and give them away when they're little. But try and get someone to take a large snake from someone that you probably just met that you don't know the temperament or the conditions in which it was kept. Not so easy I would imagine.


Kinda... should be a first thought when buying them would'nt it... Unfortunately they don't, hence the government stepping is as Aaron says they could'nt police themselves....

Same reason I don't have a coastal or a scrubby in my collection (or even a bredli for that matter)

[Aaron_S]

Red Ink quoted it but I would have to agree. Why wouldn't people think more clearly when breeding these snakes then Kyle? Seriously? Why? People see dollar signs and see money leaking out of their pockets trying to feed 30+ babies from ONE pairing each year so they sold them to anybody willing to pay.

Again, the giant keepers, the irresponsible ones, failed. Time to pay the piper.

[stephanbakir]

Red Ink quoted it but I would have to agree. Why wouldn't people think more clearly when breeding these snakes then Kyle? Seriously? Why? People see dollar signs and see money leaking out of their pockets trying to feed 30+ babies from ONE pairing each year so they sold them to anybody willing to pay.

Again, the giant keepers, the irresponsible ones, failed. Time to pay the piper.

Some people truly are passionate about specific species, the joy comes from seeing heads poking out of the eggs and either finding something new, something unexpected, something you have been striving for. Even normals are cherished because they really do just love the species.

Why should EVERYONE pay for the mistakes of a few idiots? Why not create a system that allows people to own them, via permits (WITH sub dermal tags) so that those idiots get hit back for doing something stupid with their animals, and the rest of us can still own the animals we love.

[red ink]

Some people truly are passionate about specific species, the joy comes from seeing heads poking out of the eggs and either finding something new, something unexpected, something you have been striving for. Even normals are cherished because they really do just love the species.

Why should EVERYONE pay for the mistakes of a few idiots? Why not create a system that allows people to own them, via permits (WITH sub dermal tags) so that those idiots get hit back for doing something stupid with their animals, and the rest of us can still own the animals we love.


You might know mate... I asked the same question to Kyle, was a compromise ever proposed or just petitions to stop the ban by USARK?

[millertime89]

Kyle are you seriously telling me that without some time those dwarfs couldn't be considered sub species in their own right?

I certainly hope so, but I'm not a biologist, just an enthusiast.

Ask Red Ink said. A compromise must happen. It seems like they won't give up going after this bill so giant keepers are going to have to give something up.

I would agree a compromise is needed, but at this point it seems neither side is willing to do so. Which leaves us in the current predicament. Limbo with neither side happy, or even close to satisfied.

These statements were posted on another forum and I'm going to repost them here.

You may not like it but there is only one group to blame - Irresponsible Reptile Hobbyists.

You'll get no argument from me. Although a close second belongs on sensationalist media types and the crazy animal rights activists (for the ban part anyways)

If hobbyists can't responsibly keep herps then maybe there should be a ban.

Why punish the many for the faults of the few?

The government isn't doing this to be dicks (if they were they'd ban all reptiles).

They're doing what they feel is best, despite the majority opinion, through backhanded tactics? Sounds like that's what they're trying to be.


Keeping pet reptiles is a privilege not a right, if you can't do it responsibly then you risk the chance of ruining it for everybody.

This is unfortunately what seems to have happened. And the many are fighting back to show that the responsible keepers are deserving of the privilege.

[Aaron_S]

You know stephan, I almost believed you when you said it's truely just for the passion of those species. If that was so, then they wouldn't breed them knowing how many are unwanted as adults and are either dead or do die at a very young age for these species. I for one used to wish to keep/breed retics and burms very much but I decided I shouldn't. Who the hell would buy these animals and care for them well enough for me to reproduce them? Not enough people, that's who. I for one actually thought of the animals ahead of time. I don't just keep ball pythons because they rock on their own but because they are the best that I can have. I get to keep snakes and that's what is most important to me. I get to see these cool animals all the time. I went this route as it was best for the animals involved. Best care I can deliver with my time/space and resources and within city by-laws. Most of all though, I cared to think about how many babies I would/could produce and the difficulty of finding proper homes for them all.

The question, why punish the few who deserve it? Simply because we were allowed to police ourselves for 20 years! (That's about the time the albino burm made giants really popular). We failed as a hobby as a whole. Nobody to blame but ourselves. We didn't do it right and now we lose that privilege.

[dshin963]

I dont mean to sound cheeky or ruffle feathers but the word domesticated was being thrown around a lot a few pages back in regards to cats and dogs.... Reptiles of any kind are not domesticated.... Sure your ball python or corn snake may not bite you but does that mean its domesticated.... I think not. Cats and dogs have been slowly domesticated for many millennia... Snakes have been kept as a hobby for less than a century... And thats being generous... Also Aaron about gun and Toronto.. You can legally obtain one but the restrictions on them are massive... Like the only place you can have a hand gun is in a locked carrying case with ammo in a seperate location and you can only transport it from your home to a firing range in the most direct route... And thats after you get your restricted firearms licence...

Again not trying to be cheeky just putting it out there...

[alessia55]

This is a somewhat long but really worthwhile article: This what it has come to… « Student of the Reptile (http://studentofthereptile.wordpress.com/2012/01/18/43/)

[Preciouspythons]

I signed the potition...that is on facebook and I have many posts letting people know about this ban and how wrong it is!!!

[exwizard]

Exwizard, I have said again and again a size amendment would be most ideal. I am for that which would change Iowa's laws as well as keep your snakes safe.

Ok I'd like to adress that...

First off, where would you draw the line? 8'? 9'? 12'? Would that make Black Betty illegal even though she's a Dum? She is 9 1/2 long as I stated earlier. Bottom line is no matter what the feds to, Iowa still has these laws banning Anacondas, Retics (even the SDs) and Rock Pythons. That will not change since its already in the books. This debate is endless and nobody is going to change anyone else's mind so its all pointless to continue with this.

I did some research in this and there are four species that will be prohibited from crossing state lines. Burmese Pythons, Yellow Anacondas, Northern and Southern African Rock Pythons. Reticulated Pythons, Green Anacondas, Indian Rock Pythons and Amethistines will still be allowed to do so. I repeat, the only thing that this ban does is prohibit any of these four species from crossing state lines. IMO this debate needs to stop because all its doing is working people up to a frenzy. Im done.

[MoreliAddict]

wait the ban affects yellow anacondas but not greens? http://www.lilwaynehq.com/forums/images/smilies/facepalm.gif

[exwizard]

yes, weird huh?

[Aaron_S]

You seem to think Exwizard that bills can't change. I don't know about down there but a bunch of municipalities here in Ontario have changed their bylaws from excluding ANY boid to size restrictions. That tells me that no matter what the "feds" do that Iowa can STILL change.

I would put the size restriction probably at 3 metres just to answer your question. I'm sorry if you ever lost your pet to that kind of bill but in reality the giant keepers will have to give something up.

[millertime89]

You seem to think Exwizard that bills can't change. I don't know about down there but a bunch of municipalities here in Ontario have changed their bylaws from excluding ANY boid to size restrictions. That tells me that no matter what the "feds" do that Iowa can STILL change.

I would put the size restriction probably at 3 metres just to answer your question. I'm sorry if you ever lost your pet to that kind of bill but in reality the giant keepers will have to give something up.

The 10th Amendment of the US constitution reads "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."
This SHOULD be something left to the states, but no state is going to challenge this in the supreme court.
That said, if the national law is more restrictive than a state law, its the national law you go by, regardless of what your state says.

[infernalis]

I have intentionally kept my distance.. But here is some logic to chew over.

The media (including but not limited to Animal Planet A.K.A. Discovery Networks) has already painted the picture with many stories and weekly specials about Florida and even a few stories of big boas in central park N.Y.

Salazar presented his case using a giant python pelt as a "stage prop" to scare the congressional members into voting for the ban.

all the petitions, all the voices are now simply being viewed as "the problem" speaking out.

They have already painted us as irresponsible, terrible people.

The "industry" that is getting crushed here is the very industry that brought these animals to US shores in the first place.

so (an exaggeration here) if one million people sign a petition stating that we do not feel the ban is fair, they will simply say "look how big the PROBLEM really is, we have a million people here who want this, a million morons who will just keep on bringing these animals into the US so they can escape or get released...

See what I am trying to say? it does not matter how "educated" we are, it does not matter what promises we make, we are no different to them than a million pot heads begging for legalization of dope.

[red ink]

They have already painted us as irresponsible, terrible people.

The "industry" that is getting crushed here is the very industry that brought these animals to US shores in the first place.

so (an exaggeration here) if one million people sign a petition stating that we do not feel the ban is fair, they will simply say "look how big the PROBLEM really is, we have a million people here who want this, a million morons who will just keep on bringing these animals into the US so they can escape or get released...

See what I am trying to say? it does not matter how "educated" we are, it does not matter what promises we make, we are no different to them than a million pot heads begging for legalization of dope.

A reason I have been asking if a compromise (and I would assume an educated one) was proposed in the initial fight rather than trying to rally people on social media...

A million electronic signatures on a social media will not change anything as to them that's a bunch of people who could not be bothered to get off their cloaca for what they believed in. Although four decades ago 1 million people did manage to change a government stance on legislation enacting social change... of course they did show up altogether on the steps of washington. I believe it was called the million man... something or rather.

[marvelfreak]

Instead of fighting the ban what we need to do is start working to get it modified. I believe we do need stricter law and regulation on keeping and buying the Big 8. (Boas shouldn't even be on the list.) What we need to do is Ban together and come up with a proposal on size restrictions and licensing. And we as a Reptile community need to try to get congress to work with us instead of against us.

If when all this began if we had try working with them to set rules and regulation maybe the Ban could have been avoided all together. But like a spoil child we threw a fit.
What's done is done be glad they only Ban 4 of them.

[KORBIN5895]

Instead of fighting the ban what we need to do is start working to get it modified. I believe we do need stricter law and regulation on keeping and buying the Big 8. (Boas shouldn't even be on the list.) What we need to do is Ban together and come up with a proposal on size restrictions and licensing. And we as a Reptile community need to try to get congress to work with us instead of against us.

If when all this began if we had try working with them to set rules and regulation maybe the Ban could have been avoided all together. But like a spoil child we threw a fit.
What's done is done be glad they only Ban 4 of them.

Spot on Chuck!

[Jay]

Point of logic? They are dangerous animals. Case closed. I would be for this ban even in Canada so that isn't an excuse.

I don't believe the border restrictions should be included but as I said before I'm ok with amendments. I wish for the animals to be banned. Large snakes are not easy to care for or handle solo, no matter who you are or what you think. I know this first hand.

x2
I wouldn't mind seeing anything over 12 feet banned, they are very dangerous in the wrong hands. To the vast majority of the public, a snake is a snake, and when these lg constrictors keep harming people, ending up on trains pretty soon all snakes will be regulated.

[exwizard]

You seem to think Exwizard that bills can't change. I don't know about down there but a bunch of municipalities here in Ontario have changed their bylaws from excluding ANY boid to size restrictions. That tells me that no matter what the "feds" do that Iowa can STILL change.

I would put the size restriction probably at 3 metres just to answer your question. I'm sorry if you ever lost your pet to that kind of bill but in reality the giant keepers will have to give something up.

Im telling you that they WONT change this law, not that they cant and frankly Im glad they wont change to a size restriction of 3 meters as you put it. Des Moines has a size limit ordinance of 6' unless you have a permit. I paid $125 plus 20 hours of class time to get this permit and Im not giving her up no matter what you may say about it. Frankly Im glad that the powers that be dont have the negative fatalistic attitude that you have because I see a lot of ignorance in the Des Moines legislature as it is, resulting in much worse and draconian laws that those aready in the books.

I deal with reality as it exists now, not some ban that extremists are hoping for but that has not happened.

[Rogue628]

Instead of fighting the ban what we need to do is start working to get it modified. I believe we do need stricter law and regulation on keeping and buying the Big 8. (Boas shouldn't even be on the list.) What we need to do is Ban together and come up with a proposal on size restrictions and licensing. And we as a Reptile community need to try to get congress to work with us instead of against us.



What I've been trying to say all along.

[Aaron_S]

Chuck has said it better than myself.

I like what Wayne has said too. It really is food for thought.

Exwizard we will have to agree to disagree.

[exwizard]

Im cool with that. Im not here to change anyones mind, just expressing my opinions for what thats worth.

[Jay]

"swamp wars" on animal planet will not help anyone's case.

[exwizard]

Agreed. Its just another media sensationalism hit pieces. I dont watch it.

[marvelfreak]

:mad:I just read this on another forum. If this is a sign of what's to come we can all kiss your snakes goodby. This is what they're trying to pass in Virginia and look for other states to follow.:mad: . Correct me if i am wrong but to didn't see nothing about boas with the exception of Anacondas.

http://www.darksidereptiles.com/forum/Themes/Prince_of_Darkness_20/images/post/xx.gif
Re: Virginia House Bill HB 1242 (http://www.darksidereptiles.com/forum/index.php/topic,6487.msg57666.html#msg57666)

« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2012, 11:41:22 PM »



Quote (http://www.darksidereptiles.com/forum/index.php?action=post;quote=57666;topic=6487.0;las t_msg=57667)


The rest of the HB 1242 just got posted and it's really BAD.

Bill Tracking - 2012 session > Legislation (http://lis.virginia.gov/cgi-bin/legp604.exe?121+ful+HB1242)

A BILL to amend the Code of Virginia by adding in Chapter 5 of Title 29.1 an article numbered 8, consisting of sections numbered 29.1-578 through 29.1-586, relating to the ownership of dangerous wild animals; penalty.
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Patron-- Peace
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Committee Referral Pending
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Be it enacted by the General Assembly of Virginia:

1. That the Code of Virginia is amended by adding in Chapter 5 of Title 29.1 an article numbered 8, consisting of sections numbered 29.1-578 through 29.1-586, as follows:

Article 8.
Conditions on the Ownership of Dangerous Wild Animals.
§ 29.1-578. Possession, sale, transfer, and breeding of certain animals.

It is unlawful for any person to possess, sell, transfer, or breed any of the following animals:

1. Order Carnivora:

a. Family Canidae: all species and hybrids of the genera Canis (wolves and related species), Cuon (dholes), Lycaon (African wild dogs), and Chrysocyon (maned wolves); excluding Canis lupus familiaris (domestic dogs) and Canis lupus familiaris hybrids.

b. Family Felidae: all species and hybrids of the family Felidae (all felids); excluding Felis catus (domestic cats) and Felis catus hybrids.

c. Family Ursidae: all species and hybrids of bears.

d. Family Hyaenidae: all species of hyena and aardwolf.

2. Order Crocodilia: all species of alligators, crocodiles, caimans, and gharials.

3. Order Primates: all species and hybrids of apes, galagos, lemurs, lorises, and monkeys, excluding humans.

4. Order Proboscidea: all species of elephants.

5. Order Squamata:

a. Family Atractaspididae: all species and hybrids, such as mole vipers.

b. Family Boidae, to include all species that may be described as family Pythonidae: all species and hybrids of the genera Apodora (pythons), Eunectes (anacondas), Liasis (pythons), Morelia (pythons), and Python (pythons); excluding Morelia viridis (green tree pythons), Python anchietae (Angolan pythons), and Python regius (ball or royal pythons).
c. Family Colubridae: all species and hybrids of the genera Dispholidus (boomslangs), Rhabdophis (keelbacks), and Thelotornis (twig snakes).

d. Family Elapidae, to include all species that may be described as family Hydrophiidae: all species and hybrids, such as cobras, mambas, coral snakes, and sea snakes.

e. Family Viperidae: all species and hybrids, such as rattlesnakes, pit vipers, and puff adders.

§ 29.1-579. Exemptions.

The provisions of § 29.1-578 shall not apply to:

1. Facilities accredited or certified by the Association of Zoos and Aquariums, facilities that have an active contractual relationship with an American Association of Zoos and Aquariums Species Survival Plan for breeding of species listed as threatened or endangered pursuant to 16 U.S.C. § 1533, or facilities that are actively seeking accreditation or certification by the American Association of Zoos and Aquariums that have a letter of understanding with a mentor institution that is renewed annually.

2. Research facilities, as defined in the Animal Welfare Act (7 U.S.C. § 2132(e)).

3. Facilities accredited by the Global Federation of Animal Sanctuaries with an accreditation status appropriate for the animals held.

4. Circuses, defined as incorporated Class C licensees under the Animal Welfare Act (7 U.S.C. § 2134), that are temporarily in the Commonwealth and that offer scheduled performances by live animals.

5. Federal, state, or local government facilities or agents holding an animal for official purposes.

6. Licensed veterinary establishments temporarily holding an animal for the purpose of providing veterinary treatment.

7. A person temporarily transporting an animal through the state if the transit time is not more than 24 hours, the animal is not exhibited, and the animal is maintained at all times in a species-appropriate cage or other travel container such that there is no opportunity for physical contact with any member of the public.

§ 29.1-580. Conditions for allowable continued possession.

The provisions of § 29.1-578 shall not apply to persons who possessed such an animal prior to July 1, 2012, provided that such person:

1. Shall maintain veterinary records, acquisition papers, or other documents or records that establish that the person possessed the animal prior to July 1, 2012;

2. Shall not acquire additional such animals after July 1, 2012, whether by purchase, transfer, donation, or reproduction;

3. Shall not have been convicted of an offense involving the abuse or neglect of any animal pursuant to any federal, state, or local law;

4. Shall not have had a license or permit regarding the care, possession, exhibition, breeding, or sale of animals revoked or suspended by any federal, state, or local agency;

5. Shall not fail to keep the animal properly confined;

6. Shall not allow members of the public any opportunity to come into physical contact with the animal;

7. Shall register with, and pay a registration fee to, the Department by July 1, 2013, and annually thereafter, indicating the number and species of such animals in his possession and showing proof of liability insurance in an amount of not less than $250,000 for property damage, bodily injury, or death caused by such animals; and

8. At least 72 hours prior to the sale or transfer of an existing dangerous wild animal, shall notify the Department, identifying the recipient of the animal. The possession, sale, transfer, and transport of the dangerous wild animal shall conform to all applicable state, local, and federal laws.

§ 29.1-581. Certain animals not properly confined.

Any animal described in § 29.1-578, excluding noncaptive native populations of wildlife, found to be not properly confined, whether on the property of the owner or running at large, may be humanely destroyed by law-enforcement or animal control officers, or other federal, state, or local agents, in order to protect public safety. The owner or custodian of such an animal will be liable for costs accrued to law-enforcement or animal control agencies in humanely destroying or otherwise securing any such animal.

§ 29.1-582. Forfeiture and disposition of animals possessed in violation of this article.

A. Law-enforcement and animal control officers shall, upon probable cause, impound any or all animals possessed in violation of this article. If such animal does not pose an immediate threat to public safety and is not suffering from apparent animal neglect or cruelty, the animal shall be considered impounded in its enclosure and shall be properly maintained and provided adequate care by the owner until judicial determination of forfeiture. If such animal poses an immediate threat to public safety or is suffering from apparent animal neglect or cruelty, the animal shall be seized by law-enforcement or animal control officers and held in a suitable federal, state, or local facility or other facility exempted from this article in § 29.1-579 until judicial determination of forfeiture.

B. Upon seizing or impounding an animal, the law-enforcement or animal control officer shall petition the general district court in the city or county where the animal is seized or impounded for a hearing. The hearing shall be not more than 10 business days from the date of the seizure or impoundment of the animal. The hearing shall be to determine whether the animal is possessed in violation of this article.

C. Upon judicial determination that (i) the seized or impounded animal is listed in § 29.1-578 and (ii) the owner of the seized or impounded animal is violating any provision of this article with regard to such animal, the animal shall be deemed forfeited.

D. Any animal judicially deemed forfeited pursuant to this article shall as soon as practicable be euthanized by a licensed veterinarian or humanely destroyed as recommended by a licensed veterinarian unless (i) a person legally able to possess the animal and willing and able to take immediate possession of the animal is identified prior to or at the forfeiture hearing, in which case the court may award such person ownership of the animal, or (ii) the court determines that the animal is listed in 50 C.F.R. 17.11 as protected under the Endangered Species Act (16 U.S.C. § 1531 et seq.), in which case such animal shall be ceded to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service.

E. A court may order the owner of an animal seized pursuant to this article to post a bond in surety with the locality for the cost of caring for such animal for a period of time not to exceed nine months. If the court orders the posting of a bond in surety, the bond shall be posted with the clerk of the court within five business days after the hearing. If the person ordered to post the bond does not do so, the animal is deemed forfeited.

§ 29.1-583. Voluntary relinquishment.

Nothing in this article shall be construed to prevent the voluntary, permanent relinquishment of any animal by its owner to a person legally able to possess the animal and willing and able to take possession or have such animal euthanized by a licensed veterinarian in lieu of seizure or impoundment. Voluntary relinquishment shall have no effect on any criminal charges that may be pursued by the appropriate authorities concerning possession or treatment of the animal.

§ 29.1-584. Adoption of regulations.

The Board shall adopt regulations to carry out the provisions of this article. The regulations shall include (i) the adoption of registration fees on a sliding scale depending on the number of dangerous wild animals a person possesses prior to July 1, 2012, and (ii) any additional exemptions to this article the Department deems necessary to facilitate management of native or naturalized wildlife.

29.1-585. Department to notify local officials.

The Department shall notify law enforcement officials and animal control officers of the presence in their locality of any lawfully possessed animal that is registered pursuant to subdivision 7 of § 29.1-580. The notice shall include the name of the owner of the animal, his address, and the species of the animal that is registered.

§ 29.1-586. Penalties.

Any person who violates any provision of this article is guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.

[Jay]

No carpet pythons. :s they allow gtp's
Most places have a 2 meter ban anyhow.
Regarding swamp wars it's so misleading they were talking about an exotic brb that was some ones pet who got out and was in a public washroom and showing clips of rock pythons saying all constrict are the samr

[youngster]

No carpet pythons. :s they allow gtp's

That's what I was thinking :confused:

As many others have said I don't think a 2 meter ban would be a terrible thing, as long as you can obtain permits to have snakes over 2 meters.

[KORBIN5895]

3. Order Primates:allspeciesand hybrids of apes, galagos, lemurs, lorises, and monkeys, excluding humans.


Hey at least you get to keep your pet humans!

[alessia55]

the VA bill they're trying to pass is awful :( that means I could never move to VA where my boyfriend's parents live and bring my ball pythons with me! :( I'll never live in a place where I could risk losing my snakes to a silly law like that one.

[Jay]

Hey at least you get to keep your pet humans!

Wasn't slavery abolished?
Lol I need to go find me a good human supplier. Does any one have any care sheets?

[Nismo89]

the VA bill they're trying to pass is awful :( that means I could never move to VA where my boyfriend's parents live and bring my ball pythons with me! :( I'll never live in a place where I could risk losing my snakes to a silly law like that one.

Ball pythons are safe in that bill so you're in luck for now. They are one of the few that are excluded like the GTP.

[alessia55]

Ball pythons are safe in that bill so you're in luck for now. They are one of the few that are excluded like the GTP.

Oooh I misread it. You're right; thanks for pointing that out to me!

[Strutter769]

And fight the python ban.

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself. (http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DhlvagFb9jrc%26fea ture%3Dplcp%26context%3DC3271cd0UDOEgsToPDskLyD6nf Dcqhqw1YJdxz0AaL&feature=plcp&context=C3271cd0UDOEgsToPDskLyD6nfDcqhqw1YJdxz0AaL&v=hlvagFb9jrc&gl=US)

[infernalis]

Nothing there but my own profile.. and don't we have a thread for this already???

how many ban threads does a forum need?

[Strutter769]

Sorry Wayne. I figured there is one but I didnt locate it. You can delete and I will try to post the proper link tomorrow. My apologies.

[infernalis]

Folks, we will not be having anymore than this one ban thread running.

Sorry, but it seems like every forum on the net is getting overrun by threads of people protesting the recent moves in Washington.

There is no call for multiple threads on the same subject.

any and all mention of the ban will automatically be swept into this thread...

[KORBIN5895]

Woot woot! Standing ovation for Wayne.

[Strutter769]

Please make sure there is one on the horizon in your state. To our friends outside the States, check it out!

New Python Ban-Snake Awareness Day - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8s40lOTRaI&sns=em)

[Strutter769]

Also please "Like" facebook.com/snakeawarenessday