The one and ONLY python BAN thread (HR511)

[Shmoges]

Call me a terrible person but I am kinda glad large snakes have been banned and people who really want them need to be licences breeders. To many fools who lack husbandry foresight have abused these animals for far to long. Perhaps years down the road the stereotypes of large snakes will die away because there wont be headlines of idiots dumping there animals in the swamps. I think its good for the animals myself.

[Strutter769]

I completely agree. My fear is that it is not going to stop with these few species. I'm going to try what I can to keep them out of the ban. We need to make sure this isn't the first snowball in the avalanche. If we don't fight back, what's stopping us from being buried in the snow?

[Strutter769]

Also please "Like" facebook.com/snakeawarenessday

On this page it reads "We want this to be global, but we only have the ability to make this into an American holiday. We are happy to help with anyone from any country to do the same. Thanks!

[red ink]

Please make sure there is one on the horizon in your state. To our friends outside the States, check it out!

New Python Ban-Snake Awareness Day - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8s40lOTRaI&sns=em)

Watched it... this forum is too nice for me to say what i really think :)

[Rogue628]

Not too sure how any of you feel about Ben Siegel but he has been pounding out post after post on facebook about overturning the ban. He has teamed up with Kenan Harkin, an xtreme sports celebrity and animal supporter, to help the burms, afrocks, and yellow annies that may be displaced because of the Lacy Act.

Here's their main website if anyone is interested: The Burmese Python Initiative (http://www.savetheburms.com/index.html)

They also have a facebook page: The Burmese Python Initiative | Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/savetheburms)

[KORBIN5895]

Sorry but this whole thing is starting to remind me of junior high.

[millertime89]

Call me a terrible person but I am kinda glad large snakes have been banned and people who really want them need to be licences breeders. To many fools who lack husbandry foresight have abused these animals for far to long. Perhaps years down the road the stereotypes of large snakes will die away because there wont be headlines of idiots dumping there animals in the swamps. I think its good for the animals myself.

I'm sorry, but that just doesn't make sense.
If only big breeders can have the bigs then who gets the offspring? Its not self sustaining you know.
Yes people dump their snakes when they get too big, but you are aware that the majority of the snakes in the Everglades (the ONLY place with an invasive python problem in the country) are descendant from Vietnamese and Taiwanese lines, these country stopped exporting snakes shortly after Hurricane Andrew in 1992.

I've stated numerous times, I'm ok with size restrictions, NOT breed bans, I don't see why that's so hard.

[Shmoges]

I thought it was only Florida that had the ban not the entire US and I didn't realize its now illegal to transport these animals across any state lines thats a bit much. Honestly I don't think large snakes should be a big market like smaller animals if it makes sense they require much more work knowledge and are a physical risk like hots I don't think everyone and there brother should be cranking out rock pythons.

Size restrictions would have to include breed bans granted baby retics are small but they grow and then what?

I personally would love a Boleins(sp) python but I know I can't handle something that big. If I was committed however I think that I should have a licence and training for something like that since it could actually kill me like a hot.

[kernel]

I completely agree that not everyone should have one and that there should be a permit, registration and micro chipping system, but a federal ban is uncalled for.

I would love to have a albino burm, but I know I'm not ready for a snake of that size. I don't even have experience with a red tail boa yet.

[exwizard]

The giants have NOT been banned at the federal level. Only 4 of the species cant cross state lines but you can still keep them if your state allows it.

[Strutter769]

The giants have NOT been banned at the federal level. Only 4 of the species cant cross state lines but you can still keep them if your state allows it.

You have to be sure they are allowed within your city limits as well (if applicable). For example, there is no state law in Illinois, but my city doesn't allow any exotics at all.

[exwizard]

Yes I understand that. Iowa bans retics, anacondas and rock pythons, but there is no size limit on the other species. Des Moines has a 6' size limit unless you have a permit, which I have. Some cities in Iowa dont allow snakes at all. We know of a couple of guys who sold us their entire rat colony because they had to get their snakes out of town. Those snakes were moved to Des Moines by the one partner who bought out the other. They were harmless ball pythons and yet the city they were in in gave them the ultimatum.

The snake laws are a patchwork from city to city in Iowa. These current federal restrictions will have little effect on what I can otherwise do. As far as I can see, the only snake affected by this restriction is the burm since that is legal here and the others are not.

[KORBIN5895]

You have to be sure they are allowed within your city limits as well (if applicable). For example, there is no state law in Illinois, but my city doesn't allow any exotics at all.

So what are brb considered?

[exwizard]

Im assuming when that city says "all exotics", that includes any snake.

[KORBIN5895]

So Roy proves my whole opinion on the ban.

[millertime89]

I thought it was only Florida that had the ban not the entire US and I didn't realize its now illegal to transport these animals across any state lines thats a bit much. Honestly I don't think large snakes should be a big market like smaller animals if it makes sense they require much more work knowledge and are a physical risk like hots I don't think everyone and there brother should be cranking out rock pythons.

Size restrictions would have to include breed bans granted baby retics are small but they grow and then what?

I personally would love a Boleins(sp) python but I know I can't handle something that big. If I was committed however I think that I should have a licence and training for something like that since it could actually kill me like a hot.

Ok, one thing at a time here...

Banning the interstate transport and sale of large species is what the whole ban discussion has been about. I would be a felon for taking a burm an hour East of where I am.

You would be surprised at how big the market for these animals is. Sure the females can get enormous, but a male retic usually tops out around 14 feet (unless powerfed). While that's still a big snake, there's a BIIIIIIIIG difference between 14 and 20 (weight wise too). Go check one out sometime, its quite the experience.

I agree, they're definitely NOT for everyone. Like you said, they require a certain maturity that unfortunately not everyone has, just like hots.
What about dwarf and superdwarf variants? I have a superdwarf retic that most likely won't break 8 feet. Bob Clark has dwarf burms that are the same. Sure its possible they'll eventually be listed as a separate subspecies, but that doesn't really mean anything to politicians when the most they care about is banning a species regardless of locality. (see the Virginia law? The only morelia they knew enough about to place them on the "not ban" list was morelia viridis)

I think tracking, education, and licensing would be the best route. Unfortunately there are still people out there that won't obey the rules. How many unlicensed and uninsured drivers are there out there? And cars are WAY more dangerous than any snake.

Kevin, I'm curious what IS your opinion. I don't have a problem with people thinking large snakes shouldn't be legal as long as they have a well thought out and rational reason to back up their claim. Unfortunately, I have yet to see one.

[KORBIN5895]

My opinion is we are way overreacting to this ban. First off I am okay with not being able to import certain species. Secondly I think this whole interstate transport ban is rediculous and they will never be able to enforce it. What are they going to do random car searches? Will they have a baggage scanner on every road to make sure you don't have a burm with you?

As Roy stated elgin has a no exotic ban. Apparently he has no problems acquiring brb. So why get your panties in such a twist. The more I looked at the ban the more I realized it was just politicians doing what they do best: making empty promises and wasting money that isn't theirs.

I myself have no issues with people owning large snakes. I think that wild imports need to be slowed down or stopped completely. I also think that anyone breeding an animal that has so much potential to harm, whether it be a giant snake, a hot, an " aggressive " dog breed, or large cat, should be responsible for where that animal ends up. If you sell a hot to some idiot that knows nothing about that animal and you just don't care, well then you are just as guilty as the owner when that thing gets loose and harms someone.

[Strutter769]

Korbin you're exactly right. I moved back to Elgin, IL with Lucy
y. In '98, I had nothing to worry about, as far as I knew. Now, we will.be moving out of state within the next couple years to NM. We're gonna have to cross a number of states in the process. Should we plan to be harassed at each state line?

[KORBIN5895]

Hey Roy please don't think I was attacking you. I wasn't. My point is that this ban will not stop anything but importing wc.

[Gungirl]

Just FYI It is against the law to spit on the ground in many places... Laws are made and then ignored. Stop getting your panties in a bunch over stuff that isn't going to get enforced.

[KORBIN5895]

Just FYI It is against the law to spit on the ground in many places... Laws are made and then ignored. Stop getting your panties in a bunch over stuff that isn't going to get enforced.

That's what I was trying to say!

[Strutter769]

[QUOTE=KORBIN5895;673212]Hey Roy please don't think I was attacking you. I wasn't. My point is that this ban will not stop anything but......[QUOTE]

No thoughts of that at all. In fact it's a bonus. That was one of the points I was trying to get across.

In the summertime, I would take Lucy outside (80° or above in the shade) in the back yard pretty frequently, one day we brought her to the front yard, which of course drew curious attention from the neighbors. It also drew notice from a passing officer if the law..... who passed us by.....put the squad car in reverse.... to come back to take a picture of Lucy to show his kids who "would go crazy" from it.

It wasn't until a "family member" had a grudge against us and notified the police of Marcy's pet chickens. It was that day, after spending 36.5 of my nearly 39 years on this planet in Elgin, that I learned ALL REPTILES are illegal to possess in my town.

New Mexico, save a nice spot for us! We'll be there when we can! Question is: For how long will that matter before bans spread like a contagion.

Sidenote: Posted while slightly under the influence... Prescribed.... To me... I promise.

[millertime89]

the fear is that its a slippery slope as strutter mentioned.
I have no problem with a ban, or at the very least extremely tight restrictions on the importation of new snakes. I think that should be reserved to the biggest names in the business that have good(ish) ethics about imports such as Harry Wessels, Bob Clark (maybe), NERD, and Prehistoric Pets. It should be allowed for new morphs, and getting new blood into the existing population, and if there's a new world record size captured that a zoo could use for educational purposes. That's it.

[millertime89]

like I said, slippery slope, here's Rhode Island
- Rhode Island moves to ban Pythons, Boas and more (http://www.kingsnake.com/blog/archives/793-Rhode-Island-moves-to-ban-Pythons,-Boas-and-more.html)
looks to be way to vague though.
http://www.rilin.state.ri.us/BillText12/SenateText12/S2033.pdf

[youngster]

Oh no!!! :( RI is close to me.
That would suuuuck, then New England would catch on...

[millertime89]

Its way too broad, I doubt it'll get passed even if it does manage to hit the floor.

[Jenn_06]

» Herp Nation LIVE (VIDEO) – USARK Response to Python Ruling Herp Nation Magazine – Reptiles Amphibians Herpetology Husbandry (http://www.herpnation.com/hn-video/herp-nation-live-usark-response-to-federal-ruling/)

[millertime89]

bump, I heard from an acquaintance who recently spoke with USFWS. The ban does not go into effect on March 23rd like a lot of people think. The ban goes into effect 60 days after the snakes are placed on the list of injurious animals, which has not been done yet. I'm trying to stay up to date on everything but there's a lot of info out there. I'll try and keep this thread updated.

[Rogue628]

bump, I heard from an acquaintance who recently spoke with USFWS. The ban does not go into effect on March 23rd like a lot of people think. The ban goes into effect 60 days after the snakes are placed on the list of injurious animals, which has not been done yet. I'm trying to stay up to date on everything but there's a lot of info out there. I'll try and keep this thread updated.


I keep hearing that they've already been placed on that list. But I've also heard they haven't.

[cute_snakeyface]

I will never surrender my Ball! >: \

[millertime89]

I keep hearing that they've already been placed on that list. But I've also heard they haven't.

they haven't, but they're going to.
here's the current list
www.fws.gov/fisheries/ans/Current_Listed_IW.pdf

edit: you might also see this one, if you notice the note at the bottom that the "big 9" are under consideration.
http://www.fws.gov/fisheries/ANS/pdf_files/Current_Listed_IW.pdf

[Strutter769]

News from USARK: Facebook (http://m.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.herpnation.com%2Faudio%2F breaking-news-usark-response-to-hr-511-python-ban-committee-hearing%2F%3Fsimple_nav_category%3Daudio&h=5AQHgjMOL)

[Skumbo]

As for the enforcement thing, it is true that I am not worried about them coming and taking my snakes from me, whether I had a burm, cornsnake, etc. nobody will know what I have in my home. The problem is for breeders, and I'm willing to fight to help them (slippery slope aside, though that is a very realistic reason)

[CK SandBoas]

Regular Session 2011-2012 House Bill 2233 P.N. 3155 (http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/legis/PN/Public/btCheck.cfm?txtType=HTM&sessYr=2011&sessInd=0&billBody=H&billTyp=B&billNbr=2233&pn=3155)

[Skumbo]

Regular Session 2011-2012 House Bill 2233 P.N. 3155 (http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/legis/PN/Public/btCheck.cfm?txtType=HTM&sessYr=2011&sessInd=0&billBody=H&billTyp=B&billNbr=2233&pn=3155)

So.. did that pass?

If so, I actually (if implemented correctly, which it wont be..) Would agree with that. It would stop a lot of the horrible conditions that reptiles end up in.

Sadly, realistically, its just a way to make money off of people wanting pets, and limits a lot of things and most likely wont have proper regulatory body to ensure everything goes correctly

[Strutter769]

I can live with paying a fee, it's all greed, but if I can keep my reptiles, so be it. I hope Illinois' actions are somewhat similar.

[millertime89]

I'm ok with a permit system. I've said it before, its a step in the right direction.

But no, that hasn't passed yet, it was just "REFERRED TO COMMITTEE ON GAME AND FISHERIES, FEBRUARY 29, 2012". Its in between the second set of black lines. I didn't feel like retyping it.

[Skumbo]

I'm ok with a permit system. I've said it before, its a step in the right direction.

But no, that hasn't passed yet, it was just "REFERRED TO COMMITTEE ON GAME AND FISHERIES, FEBRUARY 29, 2012". Its in between the second set of black lines. I didn't feel like retyping it.

ah ok, im all for permits actually given how horribly ill-informed some people are resulting in snake suffering, but they'd have to be implemented correctly.

[millertime89]

yup, I agree. A more expensive permit and a class requirement for any burms, retics, african and indian rocks, and 'condas as well, that would keep random people from walking into a pet store and buying one without realizing what they're getting their hands into. Hopefully.

[Rogue628]

I have no problem with getting a permit or license or even following mandatory guidelines required for keeping (like locks, etc). When I finally talked to someone at LARK (Louisiana ARK), I was told that I couldn't get a permit until my animals were at the 8ft requirement. I have a problem with this as this still lets anyone who thinks a baby snake is "cute" until it gets 6 or 7 ft long and they decide they can't take care of it anymore and let it loose.

The city to the west of me has a permit rule in their city ordinance for any kept non venomous snake over 3ft. The permit is free. All they want to know is that you have it (and where you and they live), if you sell it and to whom, if it dies, or escapes. You don't get a fine for an escaped animal as long as you have the permit. I hate when the government plays big brother, but this city ordinance doesn't really bother me since there's no repercussions as long as you have the free permit. I'd be fine with following it.

[millertime89]

From what I can tell I would be ok with it as well.

[Strutter769]

Very, very bad news... But, being the rebel I am, I will most likely own 4.6 snakes in all by the end of next week. Last June, I owned 0.1. I think that says something. Not sure what, but it's GOTTA mean something.

They can pry them out of my cold, dead fingers! Ok, wrong attitude to have. Justin Meitz would've just punched me for typing that, but you get my point. Anyway, details below:

U.S. House Judiciary Committee passes exotic snake bill | Florida Independent (http://www.floridaindependent.com/71251/u-s-house-judiciary-committee-passes-exotic-snake-bill)

Time to flood the mailboxes of every congressman in the country. Yeah, you're right, unrealistic but we all have to do something to fight back! :angry:

[Jenn_06]

permit or license are great, ill be happy to pay to keep my snakes, but look at FL there you needed permits to but people still got burms and retics with out them. so the only people that are going to get permits are the ones that fellow the law, you are sill going to have the %$^$@^ people that will mess it up for everyone and just like FL they will just ban the snakes because everyone is not going to pay for the permits.

[Strutter769]

Interview with Brian Potter about bringing the fight to the State Capitol. They are hearing our voices, so keep the letter, phone calls and emails coming!

Anyone up for a road trip tovrepresent when he has to go back? If so PM me.

- Update from Illinois Senate hearing on 'Dangerous Animals Act of 2012' (http://www.kingsnake.com/blog/archives/835-Update-from-Illinois-Senate-hearing-on-Dangerous-Animals-Act-of-2012.html)

[Strutter769]

And now we take a few steps back. :angry:

St. Charles County couple charged after snakes, rodents found inside home (http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/st-charles-county-couple-charged-after-snakes-and-lizards-and/article_19d39a8e-63e9-11e1-b8e6-0019bb30f31a.html)

[Skumbo]

And now we take a few steps back. :angry:

St. Charles County couple charged after snakes, rodents found inside home (http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/st-charles-county-couple-charged-after-snakes-and-lizards-and/article_19d39a8e-63e9-11e1-b8e6-0019bb30f31a.html)

sigh.

"The amount is common" WHAT? WHO HAS 1000 REPTILES in their APARTMENT?!

also.. the stench was blatantly from all those mice/rats, not from the snakes...


another kid just murdered someone in ohio in a school, i dont see them passing new gun restriction laws there.. oh yeah.. cause these laws never work for anything.

[exwizard]

yup, I agree. A more expensive permit and a class requirement for any burms, retics, african and indian rocks, and 'condas as well, that would keep random people from walking into a pet store and buying one without realizing what they're getting their hands into. Hopefully.

Ok I know what youre saying and I do have a permit for big snakes. I was lucky enough to be able to attend a class qualifying me to get this permit. The problem is that these classes are rare and if someone wants to get a permit, lots of luck being able to enroll in the needed class. That person is in a catch 22. Of course even this permit does not exempt me from the 3 species that are banned in Iowa; Anacondas, Retics and African Rocks.

[Spyral]

[quote=Skumbo;694931]sigh.
also.. the stench was blatantly from all those mice/rats, not from the snakes...
quote]

In reading the article this has to be the case, as the representative from the herp society caring for the snakes said all the snakes were in clean cages, and well cared for. I know my red tail alone can stink up a whole room if I don't clean it right away. . .so his cages had to be kept clean or the animals would have been suffering as well.

Overall an outrageous article, and definitely paints the reptile community in a very bad light that is un-needed under the current state of exotic reptile and animal care. .

[Skumbo]

[quote=Skumbo;694931]sigh.
also.. the stench was blatantly from all those mice/rats, not from the snakes...
quote]

In reading the article this has to be the case, as the representative from the herp society caring for the snakes said all the snakes were in clean cages, and well cared for. I know my red tail alone can stink up a whole room if I don't clean it right away. . .so his cages had to be kept clean or the animals would have been suffering as well.

Overall an outrageous article, and definitely paints the reptile community in a very bad light that is un-needed under the current state of exotic reptile and animal care. .

We have one pet rat and it smells worse than cats do if you dont clean all the time, nevermind tons of them o.O

[millertime89]

Interview with Brian Potter about bringing the fight to the State Capitol. They are hearing our voices, so keep the letter, phone calls and emails coming!

Anyone up for a road trip tovrepresent when he has to go back? If so PM me.


- Update from Illinois Senate hearing on 'Dangerous Animals Act of 2012' (http://www.kingsnake.com/blog/archives/835-Update-from-Illinois-Senate-hearing-on-Dangerous-Animals-Act-of-2012.html)

I would so be down if I didn't have school. Seriously if I could ditch classes right now I would take of work and be there in the 9ish hours it would take me to drive there.


And now we take a few steps back. :angry:

St. Charles County couple charged after snakes, rodents found inside home (http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/st-charles-county-couple-charged-after-snakes-and-lizards-and/article_19d39a8e-63e9-11e1-b8e6-0019bb30f31a.html)

That's debatable at best. I would say most people would read some of the quotes like "they knew raising their children in this environment was wrong, but they just wouldn't get rid of their snakes" along with the fact that the snakes were kept in safe, clean cages and weren't exotic will just make the people out to be just a couple with mental problems.

[Skumbo]

I would so be down if I didn't have school. Seriously if I could ditch classes right now I would take of work and be there in the 9ish hours it would take me to drive there.




That's debatable at best. I would say most people would read some of the quotes like "they knew raising their children in this environment was wrong, but they just wouldn't get rid of their snakes" along with the fact that the snakes were kept in safe, clean cages and weren't exotic will just make the people out to be just a couple with mental problems.

its written to sound like despite being cared for properly, the snakes caused deplorable conditions, i think is the issue, since it wasnt.

also it puts off a stigma that all of us have thousands of smelly snakes. Articles like this are what make landlords ban all pets and ruin it for the rest of us.

[Strutter769]

Sorry to change the title, but I was afraid to start a ban thread.

This Tuesday, March 6, Brian Potter will again be travelling to Springfield, IL to fight for us in court. Today at the Expo, I was placed on a list to go with a group to show our support. The woman from the Expo will be calling me later in the week with further details. I don't know if there will be a bus involved or if we will all be carpooling or what will be arranged for the day. I know it's a four hour drive and we will be leaving around 8.

If you are interest in showing your support, in a courtroom where it matters most, please PM me and I'll be happy to share the details.

Let's to this!

[Skumbo]

Im nowhere close to where you are or id go, lol.

[Gatorhunter1231]

The Burmese python ban hasn't even gone into effect yet and they have already added the rest of the large snakes and boa contractors. Moving along very fast and should have all monitor keepers worried. We are next. Guarantee niles, waters, crocs and albigs are next on the chopping block. If we cant help the python guys which are more funded then us then we will fall even faster.
HR511 is on its way to the house.
RED ALERT: HR511 Stop Python and Boa BAN NOW! - FaunaClassifieds (http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=304200)
Dont leave the fight to someone else, everyone is going to have to help out.
Virgina, Rhode Island, Ohio, Illinois and West Virgina have started pushing an all out reptile ban to include everything that they can think of. (All can be found on fuana) Step up or sell out because soon we have to do one or the other.

[Gatorhunter1231]

The Burmese python ban hasn't even gone into effect yet and they have already added the rest of the large snakes and boa contractors. Surprised this hasn't made it up here yet. HR511 is on its way to the house so fight now and call representatives.
RED ALERT: HR511 Stop Python and Boa BAN NOW! - FaunaClassifieds (http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=304200)

Virgina, Rhode Island, Ohio, Illinois and West Virgina have started pushing an all out reptile ban to include everything that they can think of. (All can be found on fuana) Step up or sell out because soon we have to do one or the other.

I dont even own large snakes anymore but know they will eat away at the hobby until nothing is left.

[Lankyrob]

Do we REALLY need ANOTHER ban thread?? I thought the whole point was just having one?

[takagari]

I dont know why it's in the giants section?

But yes you do. People are ignoring this because it's not the species they keep.

Well boa keepers said that last time. Your turn is up. You guys better damn well bet Ball pythons will be next!

The very original bill would of banned ALL BOIDS...

So people need to wake up and start donating and writing.

[Jenn_06]

If you want all the bans info in one thread than Sticky or keep bumping it up to the top so it does not get lost in all the other post.

[KORBIN5895]

Do we REALLY need ANOTHER ban thread?? I thought the whole point was just having one?

Obviously we do! Have you burned your eyes out yet?

Seriously this is turning into some intense spam regardless of what you warriors think. This is what thread five or six?

[KORBIN5895]

If you want all the bans info in one thread than Sticky or keep bumping it up the the top so it does not get lost in all the other post.

Getting lost in all of the other threads really wouldn't be a bad thing.

[Jenn_06]

Ok im going to say nothing before i get kicked off this forum.

[Lankyrob]

I totally understand the emotions involved with what is happening and that people want to keep the pressure up but WE all know about the bans, we all know what needs to be done.

All that the multiple threads is doing, to me at least and i dont think i am the only one, is annoying me.

[KORBIN5895]

Ok im going to say nothing before i get kicked off this forum.

That's probably a good idea.:)

[Jenn_06]

I totally understand the emotions involved with what is happening and that people want to keep the pressure up but WE all know about the bans, we all know what needs to be done.

All that the multiple threads is doing, to me at least and i dont think i am the only one, is annoying me.


Sad thing is EVERYONE does not know about the ban EVERYONE does not know what to do, i run into so many people on forums that just got into snakes and knows nothing so its good to have the ban thread bumped up so they can read and find out how to help.

[Gungirl]

I am done...

[Valvaren]

I just wanna say one thing about everyone freaking out.

There are lots of threads on here lately that are the same thing getting reposted and yeah I found them really annoying but then I did something, I stopped reading them. I understand you guys don't like seeing them all the time on your new posts but this isn't some silly little picture thread with someones snake looking left and then looking right. Its an issue and I know i've learned a lot from all of the threads being made and I also know that personally when I see something that is 21 pages long i'm not going to read it, mainly because it is usually filled with a lot of random gossip and not the issue. I like the newer threads because they are to the point, easier to read and are more focused and I know newer people would be more inclined to read them.

Honestly I find the whining about the threads more annoying then the threads themselves then I just stopped reading the whining.

Sorry if I offend but everyone else has said their piece so I wanted to say mine.

I say the newer threads help reach more people with more information and I find them more helpful then a 21 page jumbled chit chat.

[Lankyrob]

Sad thing is EVERYONE does not know about the ban EVERYONE does not know what to do, i run into so many people on forums that just got into snakes and knows nothing so its good to have the ban thread bumped up so they can read and find out how to help.


But just by bumping the one thread thsi will do exactly the same job without overloading the forum with lots of individual threads.

[Skumbo]

How about we talk about the ban or how to fight it rather than how many threads their are?

[Gatorhunter1231]

You needed another ban thread because I looked down the first page and seen nothing about HR511 which is brand new compared to the lacey act burm ban.

[exwizard]

I realize this site is worldwide and HR 511 only affects the U.S. However this does not take away from the fact that this bill was written by people who are ignorant of the nature of these snakes. This fact alone is why this bill needs to get defeated.

[millertime89]

Can we at least get this thread stickied?
Noob, you should've looked a little harder.
The rest of you, if you don't like the ban threads, don't read 'em and quit complaining and when your snakes are illegal don't come complaining to the rest of us.

[millertime89]

Sad thing is EVERYONE does not know about the ban EVERYONE does not know what to do, i run into so many people on forums that just got into snakes and knows nothing

unfortunately.

[infernalis]

stickied...

always on top.

[millertime89]

thank you Wayne, it was needed.

[takagari]

How about the op or admin edits the title and original post.

This is NOT LONGER a Python Ban.

So the "The one and ONLY python BAN thread" Is void. As it now includes all Boa's.

For a forum so heavily into the snake community I can not believe they do not have an announcement stickied across all forum sections. Even if comments are blocked, But something to let everyone know.

Not everyone is going to read 22 pages. So maybe updated the original thread/title?


Also. For all you shmucks talking about dead hands etc. This ban stops the import and cross state travel. If you move or travel to another state with your snake. You break Federal Law.
USFW has already stated, THERE WILL BE NO PERMIT AVAILABLE, REGARDLESS OF YOUR REASONS

[millertime89]

The admin of the forum is in favor of the ban to a certain respect. It JUST got sticked if that tells you anything.

[Skumbo]

The admin of the forum is in favor of the ban to a certain respect. It JUST got sticked if that tells you anything.

.....what?

[millertime89]

its posted somewhere in this thread IIRC. Wayne has graciously agreed to stay out of this thread because he disagrees with the majority sentiment in this thread.

[Dehlida]

The ban will not lift, but this is going to create a tremendous "niche" market for those who have burms, and breed large constrictors. Very few people breed them as it is, now lets see, guy in Denver (my state) wants a burm- he can't buy from any other state, only breeders in his state.

Smart breeder knows very few people have the snake or babies for sale, triples/quadruples his price and still gets sales- because there is no where else to legally go for the animals. If you have the room and the time, get into the big constrictors now, it'll pay off big time in a few years.

I wouldn't be shocked if somehow Boas made it to the ban list in the next 1-2 years, and those are a huge staple in the pet trade and do well in a collector/breeder market and are a big easier to house maintain. With chain stores unable to carry them and the demand still there, breeders will make a killing.

Watch for breeders dumping stock as ban waves come in, and don't follow suit. Buy them!

Now I don't do too much reading, but are boas already on the ban list? If so when did the ban officially take effect as I still notice people selling them, hopefully I didn't miss my market chance.

[StudentoReptile]

March 23rd.

[millertime89]

Welcome to the mad house. I'll respond to your post later. I'm about off work.

[Dehlida]

March 23rd.

I wonder why I still see so many boas up for sale on fauna? ;)

[shaunyboy]

its posted somewhere in this thread IIRC. Wayne has graciously agreed to stay out of this thread because he disagrees with the majority sentiment in this thread.

from what i remember (as i'm not re reading this thread) Wayne was all for having LICENCES for ALL large snakes,not banning them (i agree)

i may be wrong though mate:wacky:

i agree with licencing for large snakes,with if possible a written test,as it stops the " i just want a big snake " idiots,causing grief for our hobby

they are trying to introduce a ban on certain species in europe at the minute :no::unibrow:

also the APA,have been calling in false BOMB scares and succeding in getting uk shows/expo's called off,imo they are acting like terrorists,and SHOULD be treated as such...!!!

cheers shaun

[StudentoReptile]

I wonder why I still see so many boas up for sale on fauna? ;)

If you're referring to BCI and BCC, then the reason you're seeing them still up for sale everywhere is because they were not included in the final rule change. Only Burmese, both species of Afrocks and the yellow anaconda.

Of course, you also still see ads for those four species. Why? Because people still don't care. One could argue (and I'm sure it has already been debated somewhere in the previous 20+ pages of this thread), that this federal rule change is largely un-enforceable, and the liklihood of actually getting caught shipping a Burm or driving across state lines with one is pretty darn slim to one if you're careful and discreet.

However, all it takes is one screw-up to get caught. One FEDEX package to get opened up and there's another black eye on our industry. Just more ammunition against us ("Those darn reptile people have no regard for even a federal law!"). As much as I absolutely hate this law, and I think it sucks, I really don't think people should be pushing the envelope.

[StudentoReptile]

i agree with licencing for large snakes,with if possible a written test,as it stops the " i just want a big snake " idiots,causing grief for our hobby

Philosophically, I agree. But as I stated somewhat in another thread, such a system would be largely infeasible to accurately implement and enforce.

[StudentoReptile]

Just got done perusing the thread. Don't want to really rehash a lot of stuff that has been repeated many times over, and I'll try to keep my own opinions out of it.

For anyone genuinely interested, I tried to compile all relevant information on one page on my blog. I believe someone already shared it months ago during the heat of this discussion (thanks, Alessia), long before I was even aware this forum existed. This is not me trying to shamelessly plug my blog: I felt led to compile all of the information and sources regarding the so-called "python ban" in one place for this very reason, so people could use it as an archival source.

Here it is: “Python Ban” « Student of the Reptile (http://studentofthereptile.wordpress.com/the-python-ban/)

One question did seem to pop up more than once from several members, and I don't recall it ever being answered, so I'll take the time to do so. Question(s): Why only Burmese, African Rocks and yellow anacondas? Why not retics and green anacondas? Was there some sort of compromise reached by USARK and the US House of the Interior?

Here is a statement issued by Andrew Wyatt, President of USARK, some time after the rule change was announced:

The Information Quality Act governs the standard of quality of information used to substantiate a federal rule making such as the Constrictor Rule. Because, at the behest of USARK, it was confirmed from scientists round the world that the USGS Constrictor Report was NOT the kind of quality scientific work to base policy or legislative changes on, USARK filed a formal challenge in 2010 of the Constrictor Report in the form of a Request for Correction of the myriad of errors, misstatements and inconsistencies within the document. USGS responded that they were not held to information quality standards under the IQA because their “Grey” paper was NOT deemed at the time of publication to be a “Highly Influential” document; meaning that their estimate of the economic impact of the rule it was supporting fell below the $100 million threshold that constitutes a major rule. Unfortunately for them, USARK commissioned Georgetown Economic Services to do a comprehensive economic assessment of the reptile industry. They researched the entire industry and determined that the rule, in fact, reached beyond the threshold to approximately $104 million. This put the entire rule making process in jeopardy, because now USGS and FWS could be held to account in a federal courtroom for bypassing information quality standards under IQA. After USARK proved that this would indeed fall into major rule territory, White House oversight officials appeared ready to bury the rule…. Until HSUS, The Nature Conservancy and Defenders of Wildlife pressured Florida politicians to ask Obama to push rule through. Then government did what it always does, it compromised. They chose 4 snakes that would not carry the economic impact constituting a major rule and enacted this limited version avoiding the mandatory integrity in science demanded by going after all 9.

The reality of this situation is this… In 2009 Senator Bill Nelson of Florida introduced a bill, S373, that would add all 47 pythons to the Injurious Wildlife list of the Lacey Act. The bill then passed out of committee and awaited a full vote. USARK was able to convince Senator Tom Coburn of Oklahoma to place a “HOLD” on the bill because of the economic impact and effectively blocked a full vote; otherwise S373 would have been passed into law in summer 2009. USARK convinced Senator Coburn to renew the hold in 2010 until the conclusion of the 111th Congress killing the bill bill once and for all. Thank you, Senator Coburn!


So just to clarify, the powers that be were ready to toss the thing out because of the economic impact, but the Animal Rights groups pressured them to just include those snakes that fell under that $100 million threshold. It wasn't about which snakes were larger. It wasn't some round-table negotiation where they took half and gave us half (if you take into account 2 other species of anaconda were originally on the bill). It was HSUS and their cohorts doing what they do best: applying enough pressure and influence to get their way...and it worked.

[millertime89]

The ban will not lift, but this is going to create a tremendous "niche" market for those who have burms, and breed large constrictors. Very few people breed them as it is, now lets see, guy in Denver (my state) wants a burm- he can't buy from any other state, only breeders in his state.

Smart breeder knows very few people have the snake or babies for sale, triples/quadruples his price and still gets sales- because there is no where else to legally go for the animals. If you have the room and the time, get into the big constrictors now, it'll pay off big time in a few years.

I wouldn't be shocked if somehow Boas made it to the ban list in the next 1-2 years, and those are a huge staple in the pet trade and do well in a collector/breeder market and are a big easier to house maintain. With chain stores unable to carry them and the demand still there, breeders will make a killing.

Watch for breeders dumping stock as ban waves come in, and don't follow suit. Buy them!

Now I don't do too much reading, but are boas already on the ban list? If so when did the ban officially take effect as I still notice people selling them, hopefully I didn't miss my market chance.

Andrew is hopeful that the lawsuit will yield results, he just needs an additional 150k in donations to get the ball rolling. That's an additional 50% of what they made last year. Not an easy task...

Philosophically, I agree. But as I stated somewhat in another thread, such a system would be largely infeasible to accurately implement and enforce.

I concur.

If you're referring to BCI and BCC, then the reason you're seeing them still up for sale everywhere is because they were not included in the final rule change. Only Burmese, both species of Afrocks and the yellow anaconda.

Of course, you also still see ads for those four species. Why? Because people still don't care. One could argue (and I'm sure it has already been debated somewhere in the previous 20+ pages of this thread), that this federal rule change is largely un-enforceable, and the liklihood of actually getting caught shipping a Burm or driving across state lines with one is pretty darn slim to one if you're careful and discreet.

However, all it takes is one screw-up to get caught. One FEDEX package to get opened up and there's another black eye on our industry. Just more ammunition against us ("Those darn reptile people have no regard for even a federal law!"). As much as I absolutely hate this law, and I think it sucks, I really don't think people should be pushing the envelope.

You can also still sell within your own state. If a breeder in one corner has say a hypo burm for sale there could be a customer who finds them via one of the other boards. The un-enforceability was discussed, but the same conclussion was reached, one slip up is all it would take to give the industry another black eye it doesn't need.

Just got done perusing the thread. Don't want to really rehash a lot of stuff that has been repeated many times over, and I'll try to keep my own opinions out of it.

For anyone genuinely interested, I tried to compile all relevant information on one page on my blog. I believe someone already shared it months ago during the heat of this discussion (thanks, Alessia), long before I was even aware this forum existed. This is not me trying to shamelessly plug my blog: I felt led to compile all of the information and sources regarding the so-called "python ban" in one place for this very reason, so people could use it as an archival source.

Here it is: “Python Ban” « Student of the Reptile (http://studentofthereptile.wordpress.com/the-python-ban/)

One question did seem to pop up more than once from several members, and I don't recall it ever being answered, so I'll take the time to do so. Question(s): Why only Burmese, African Rocks and yellow anacondas? Why not retics and green anacondas? Was there some sort of compromise reached by USARK and the US House of the Interior?

Here is a statement issued by Andrew Wyatt, President of USARK, some time after the rule change was announced:



So just to clarify, the powers that be were ready to toss the thing out because of the economic impact, but the Animal Rights groups pressured them to just include those snakes that fell under that $100 million threshold. It wasn't about which snakes were larger. It wasn't some round-table negotiation where they took half and gave us half (if you take into account 2 other species of anaconda were originally on the bill). It was HSUS and their cohorts doing what they do best: applying enough pressure and influence to get their way...and it worked.

It was all discussed already, I know I shared your post. I've still got it bookmarked. Your compilation of the information (as well as the sources you provided, I was the one that asked) was greatly appreciated. I only hope Andrew is successful.

[StudentoReptile]

Like I said, it's what...23 pages, and I kinda speed-read it this afternoon. I probably missed more than one post.

[millertime89]

Like I said, it's what...23 pages, and I kinda speed-read it this afternoon. I probably missed more than one post.

Totally, no worries. The only reason this thread got revived is because I asked Dehlida to post her post here and not in another thread.

[jaleely]

I think shaunyboy is correct about wayne.
for what it's worth, i agree. I gave up on this thread ages ago though, but just haaad to stick my nose in again : )

[GarterPython]

Sorry did I miss something.... millertime got banned.... sorry for being off topic but... wow

[jaleely]

He did cross the line, though i was surprised at all that went down.
This thread sucks anyway, it should be off topic *lol*

[GarterPython]

Was it because of the insident with *cough* mykee *cough*

[jaleely]

Yes lol. He went on facebook and posted a private conversation between him and mykee. Against the forum rules! : (

[GarterPython]

That was kind of uncalled for.

[Dehlida]

Was it because of the insident with *cough* mykee *cough*

It's rather sad how this "mykee" character is put on such a high pedestal on the internet, considering his/her information is no more "valuable" than anyone elses here on the internet. Miller should just change IP make new account who cares.

[Lankyrob]

It's rather sad how this "mykee" character is put on such a high pedestal on the internet, considering his/her information is no more "valuable" than anyone elses here on the internet. Miller should just change IP make new account who cares.

wayne would and so would anyone who upholds the rules of the forum, suggesting someone breaches their ban is rather silly. :)

[shaunyboy]

It's rather sad how this "mykee" character is put on such a high pedestal on the internet, considering his/her information is no more "valuable" than anyone elses here on the internet. Miller should just change IP make new account who cares.

^^^^^
i definatly do NOT have mykee up on a high pedestel,but.....

i do VALUE his " years " of hands on experience

to say that EVERYONE'S INFORMATION on the internet,has the SAME VALUE, imo is WRONG mate

how can say someone who has kept 1 or 2 snakes for a year or 2,have the same information value,as somone who has kept over 100 snakes for say 10 or 15 years.( i mean no disrespect to people with 1 or 2 snakes,or short term keepers )

everyones information on the intenet is NOT equal,some have MORE value,than others

you just need to read the advice given out to see that;)


re example of why all information, is NOT OF EQUAL VALUE.....
vvvvv

as a mite cure,on another forum a guy was told,to keep his jungle carpet in a tub of oil,with the lid sealed for over 3 weeks.....

the jungle ended up with bad water blisters...

i walked the owner step by step,through treatment for water blisters,and it took us over 6 weeks,to sort out the blisters and get the snake back to full health

i'm not looking for a fight,but to say all info on the net is equal,is just wrong

cheers shaun

P.S.i know nothing about why Kyle got banned,so i'm afraid i cannot comment on that

cheers shaun

[Dehlida]

^^^^^
i definatly do NOT have mykee up on a high pedestel,but.....

i do VALUE his " years " of hands on experience

to say that EVERYONE'S INFORMATION on the internet,has the SAME VALUE, imo is WRONG mate

how can say someone who has kept 1 or 2 snakes for a year or 2,have the same information value,as somone who has kept over 100 snakes for say 10 or 15 years.( i mean no disrespect to people with 1 or 2 snakes,or short term keepers )

everyones information on the intenet is NOT equal,some have MORE value,than others

you just need to read the advice given out to see that;)


re example of why all information, is NOT OF EQUAL VALUE.....
vvvvv

as a mite cure,on another forum a guy was told,to keep his jungle carpet in a tub of oil,with the lid sealed for over 3 weeks.....

the jungle ended up with bad water blisters...

i walked the owner step by step,through treatment for water blisters,and it took us over 6 weeks,to sort out the blisters and get the snake back to full health

i'm not looking for a fight,but to say all info on the net is equal,is just wrong

cheers shaun

P.S.i know nothing about why Kyle got banned,so i'm afraid i cannot comment on that

cheers shaun
Because it has different value to different people. See you value his ball python experience. To me? He's just another ball python breeder on the internet. I value a guy with a single snake, who successfully keeps lets say- a gaboon viper. He keeps something a little more obscure, something worth reading about, to me, his information is more valuable. I value crocdoc's opinion and information, more than mykee's. Multiple people view the info, and evaluate it differently.

As I said, all I see is another know it all ball python breeder. He's got a huge ego and thinks his way is the only way of doing things- LOL. Lets be real, keeping ball pythons and breeding ball pythons can successfully be accomplished by a 6 year old. Not trying to downplay him, but the fact so many people worship him for breeding a beginner level snake is silly.

[StudentoReptile]

Because it has different value to different people. See you value his ball python experience. To me? He's just another ball python breeder on the internet. I value a guy with a single snake, who successfully keeps lets say- a gaboon viper. He keeps something a little more obscure, something worth reading about, to me, his information is more valuable. I value crocdoc's opinion and information, more than mykee's. Multiple people view the info, and evaluate it differently.

As I said, all I see is another know it all ball python breeder. He's got a huge ego and thinks his way is the only way of doing things- LOL. Lets be real, keeping ball pythons and breeding ball pythons can successfully be accomplished by a 6 year old. Not trying to downplay him, but the fact so many people worship him for breeding a beginner level snake is silly.

I haven't really been paying much attention to all of this, mainly because I haven't been here that long, and more importantly, I do not care. But as a long-standing member and moderator of another forum, and certainly no stranger to herp forums in general, I'll put in my $.02.

Before I say anything else, I don't really know any of the parties involved, or all of the threads that feature the hooplah that apparently started this fracas. Don't really care, so the following shouldn't be taken too personally.

On a personal level, I generally agree with the above. Ball pythons are a dime a dozen: they are easy to keep and breed, so consequently, ball python breeders are a dime a dozen as well. Likewise, care information for ball pythons is EVERYWHERE. The forum isn't going to suffer if it loses a BP expert. It'll survive.

In a more professional sense, speaking as a moderator from another site mostly, I can say that there are definitely times when it is nice to receive information/advice that is blunt and to the point. There are many of us who tell it like it is, and likewise, prefer to receive info in that manner. There's nothing wrong with being blunt. But there is a line between being blunt and shooting straight from the hip...and being downright rude and antagonistic. I know some point some of us feel we've been doing this long enough that we feel earned the right to be a little bit of an arse every so often, but its not excuse to cause unnecessary strife. Personally, I don't care how knowledgeable and helpful at times a person can be; if they are continually ridiculing other members and belittling them, and the delicate balance of what they are bringing to the forum is tipped to far into the negative, then something needs to change. I mean I like a good steak, but I don't want to be slapped in the face with one. You have to determine how you can best help the people you are giving advice to. Sometimes the line is a little blurry. But in the end, you have to decide whether what you're posting is a positive contribution or a negative one. Are you turning people away or genuinely trying to help them?

[exwizard]

I haven't really been paying much attention to all of this, mainly because I haven't been here that long, and more importantly, I do not care. But as a long-standing member and moderator of another forum, and certainly no stranger to herp forums in general, I'll put in my $.02.

Before I say anything else, I don't really know any of the parties involved, or all of the threads that feature the hooplah that apparently started this fracas. Don't really care, so the following shouldn't be taken too personally.

On a personal level, I generally agree with the above. Ball pythons are a dime a dozen: they are easy to keep and breed, so consequently, ball python breeders are a dime a dozen as well. Likewise, care information for ball pythons is EVERYWHERE. The forum isn't going to suffer if it loses a BP expert. It'll survive.

In a more professional sense, speaking as a moderator from another site mostly, I can say that there are definitely times when it is nice to receive information/advice that is iblunt and to the point. There are many of us who tell it like it is, and likewise, prefer to receive info in that manner. There's nothing wrong with being blunt. But there is a line between being blunt and shooting straight from the hip...and being downright rude and antagonistic. I know some point some of us feel we've been doing this long enough that we feel earned the right to be a little bit of an arse every so often, but its not excuse to cause unnecessary strife. Personally, I don't care how knowledgeable and helpful at times a person can be; if they are continually ridiculing other members and belittling them, and the delicate balance of what they are bringing to the forum is tipped to far into the negative, then something needs to change. I mean I like a good steak, but I don't want to be slapped in the face with one. You have to determine how you can best help the people you are giving advice to. Sometimes the line is a little blurry. But in the end, you have to decide whether what you're posting is a positive contribution or a negative one. Are you turning people away or genuinely trying to help them?
Hear hear!

[charlesc84]

In the 5 boroughs of NYC, all pythons, boas, monitors, tarantulas and scorpions are illegal... So are a ton of mammals. Yup, you can't even get a ball python.

I read in the last Reptiles Magazine not to buy from stores that don't support USARK. What does USARK do for NYC? Nothing. I'm all about supporting a good cause and all, but really, how did that even happen?

Also, if anyone reading this knows how I can make a difference(regarding these dumb laws) and wants to fill me in, please do.

[StudentoReptile]

In the 5 boroughs of NYC, all pythons, boas, monitors, tarantulas and scorpions are illegal... So are a ton of mammals. Yup, you can't even get a ball python.

What does USARK do for NYC? Nothing. I'm all about supporting a good cause and all, but really, how did that even happen?

USARK wasn't established until the middle of 2008. From what I understand, most of the laws you are referring to regarding the ownership of reptiles in the state of New York were already in effect at least a few years before then (2005-2006, as far as I can tell...still trying to find specifics). So personally, I kinda feel its a tad unfair to judge/fault an organization for not fighting hard enough to defeat a legislation when it didn't even exist when said legislation was established.

Once a law or bill is already in place, it is very difficult to repeal or overturn. 'Tis one of many sucky aspects of our legislative system, especially since there are so many stupid, redundant, and obsolete laws on the books. Be that as it may, by the time USARK actually came into its own in 2008, there realistically was very little it could do to overturn laws that had already been in place for at least 2 years. Regrettably, the damage had been done.

Also, if anyone reading this knows how I can make a difference(regarding these dumb laws) and wants to fill me in, please do.

My advice?

1.) First and foremost, the most important thing you can do is educate yourself on the facts. There are a lot of well-meaning herpers to there spreading TONs of misinformation about a lot of topics: about the Burms in the Everglades, why the laws are made, who's behind it, what USARK did, what USARK didn't do, why this happened or that didn't happened, etc, etc. The last thing we need is more false information being spread around; the media does enough of that already. Whether you're talking to a friend, or a stranger on the street, or doing a presentation in a classroom, it behooves you as a reptile hobbyist to have all the accurate info so that when someone asks you about this or that, you can give them as straight as answer as you can.

2.) I would start writing generalized template letters that basically defend the industry and hobby and ALREADY have them in place. So when a dumb law is on the docket, all you have to do is edit it a little, put the name of the congressman or govt official at the top, print, sign, stick it in an envelope and mail it. You should ALREADY have a list of your state officials: senators and representatives, so when the letter-writing campaign begins, you're running around in a panick "What do I write? Who do I mail the letters to?!"

Say what you will of USARK, but they make this process easy. When the time comes, they usually provide you with a list of who to write to, and a sample letter for that particular issue. If you're not cool with sending them a donation, AT LEAST get on their e-mailing list and their facebook or whatever, just so you can stay abreast of what is going on.

3.) If you're not already, get involved with your local herp community. Join a herp society. If there's not one, maybe you should start one! (that's what I did).

If you're just sitting at home, playing with your snakes, and only complaining about the dumb laws to your buddies on the web, you're not doing anything. We need to be united in this, not isolated.

I read in the last Reptiles Magazine not to buy from stores that don't support USARK.

Personally, I don't get REPTILES magazine, but in general, I stay away from all pet stores period! However, if there IS a pet store that actually knows what USARK even is, and what they stand for, and they're supporting them, then they probably DO deserve your money more than any others.

Once again, USARK is not perfect, but aside from PIJAC in a limited capacity, they are the only dog we have in this fight, at least when it comes to actually having a presence on the Hill, in the Capitol, defending our hobby. It doesn't mean we all just sit back and let them do all the work. We ALL need to do what I suggested above. Get involved. Have our facts straight and our letters ready. Be ready for phone-call campaigns, too. It's not easy, but it is effective.

Just some encouragement: I don't remember which bill it was (S.373 or H.R. 2811), but it was defeated because the reptile nation (that's us) wrote thousands of letters to their govt officials urging them to vote no on that bill. It was reportedly the largest letter-writing campaign since the Vietnam War.

Tell me that isn't effective.

[jarich]

The NYC laws were put into effect back in 2000 actually. They brought it in under the Health Dept, rather than any dept that might have some reasonable jurisdiction. Luckily, no one pays any attention to it. Again, one of those laws that seems to be there for when problems arise. I have a couple friends who are cops and they didnt know anything about it. Of course they also wouldnt know the difference between a corn snake and a python either so...

[StudentoReptile]

The NYC laws were put into effect back in 2000 actually. They brought it in under the Health Dept, rather than any dept that might have some reasonable jurisdiction. Luckily, no one pays any attention to it. Again, one of those laws that seems to be there for when problems arise. I have a couple friends who are cops and they didnt know anything about it.

Well there ya go...my main point was that they were established before USARK even existed.

Of course they also wouldnt know the difference between a corn snake and a python either so...

Which in some cases, can be a good thing or a bad thing!

[jarich]

Ya, very true!

[charlesc84]

In response to StudentoReptile,

You bring up excellent points. I shouldn't be attacking USARK over the laws... It would be nice though if somehow they can establish some type of presence in NYC. I guess no one is in a rush to fight the laws because they aren't enforced at all ( except on pet stores). But I think it would do wonders for the reptile industry in NYC and just with the public perception of reptiles in general if the laws were overturned.
I have the number for my local congress rep in my phone and I've been meaning to make a phone call.

[beardeds4life]

I think that being proactive is the best thing we can do right now. I highly suggest that you do school presentations and stuff like that. We have little chance of getting the ban overturned BUT we can stop more from happening. We really need to make sure that NO more burms are released in to the everglades.

[rmfsnakes32]

I signed the paper a long time ago but people need to realize every signature counts so to every snake owner take a few min of your time it sucks the government is trying to dictate what type of pets we can own or how big! I feel as long as you have done your homework about the breed then who cares if you have snake

[millertime89]

Its too late for signatures, they never meant a whole lot when this was going down they effectively mean nothing now.

[bigsnakegirl785]

I take take about 10-15 minute walks sometimes 20 minutes with my snakes, and answer any questions about them and help the people who stop and ask me about them to get correct information on snakes. I have had some ridiculous assumptions. For instance, last month I had my boa constrictor Cloud out and someone thought he was a copperhead! Today, I had my ball python Bud out, and someone asked me if he was an African rock python. So, as most people can probably see, a big part of the problem is misinformation in the masses.
I signed the bill a few times, and I try to get people to look at snakes in a positive light. Usually, from what I've noticed, people seem to be more open once they see a snake that isn't "trying to rip your face off" and learn that not all snakes are venomous (or as they say "poisonous"). There are a surprising number of people who believe that all snakes are venomous.
The only state I can see that is neutral on the snake laws is Minnesota, I've been looking for months for reptile laws of any sort, and have not been able to find any. I would call legislation there, but I don't have long distance.

[charlesc84]

I take take about 10-15 minute walks sometimes 20 minutes with my snakes, and answer any questions about them and help the people who stop and ask me about them to get correct information on snakes. I have had some ridiculous assumptions. For instance, last month I had my boa constrictor Cloud out and someone thought he was a copperhead! Today, I had my ball python Bud out, and someone asked me if he was an African rock python. So, as most people can probably see, a big part of the problem is misinformation in the masses.
I signed the bill a few times, and I try to get people to look at snakes in a positive light. Usually, from what I've noticed, people seem to be more open once they see a snake that isn't "trying to rip your face off" and learn that not all snakes are venomous (or as they say "poisonous"). There are a surprising number of people who believe that all snakes are venomous.
The only state I can see that is neutral on the snake laws is Minnesota, I've been looking for months for reptile laws of any sort, and have not been able to find any. I would call legislation there, but I don't have long distance.


Reminds me of my friend Greg.
I told him my Diamond/Jungle cross is not only venomous, but also spits venom as well. He believed me - and still does...

[millertime89]

The only state I can see that is neutral on the snake laws is Minnesota

The state itself is neutral, individual counties and cities could be different.

[rmfsnakes32]

This is so sicking I have voted in the past as of right now our government has not changed at least our burms are still legal and my boas otherwise I would have to do away with half my collection

[Snakeman8]

i think that the goverment has become very dense in the recent years,hmm,i wander why?

[millertime89]

The Fed is at it again, HR511 is getting its hearing before the HNRC

HR 511 ‘Python Ban’ Goes To Hearing
By awyatt on November 21, 2012
On Thursday, November 29 at 10:00 AM, the US House Natural Resources Committee will hold a hearing on HR 511. The bill known as the ‘Python Ban’ seeks to add nine constricting snakes to the Injurious Wildlife list of the Lacey Act. HR 511 could restrict import and interstate transport of constrictor snakes throughout the US. The bill’s sponsor is Representative Tom Rooney (R-FL). HR 511 reported out of US House Committee on the Judiciary on a voice vote in February, 2012.

HR 511 will be heard by the House Natural Resources Committee, Subcommittee on Fisheries, Wildlife, Oceans and Insular Affairs on November 29th. The Subcommittee Chair is Representative John Flemming (R-LA). The hearing will be held in the Longworth House Office Building at 10:00 AM.

USARK will provide three expert witnesses for the hearing; USARK president and CEO, Andrew Wyatt; NatGeo Wild Python Hunter, Shawn Heflick; National Geographic Society Resident Herpetologist, Dr. Brady Barr. Witnesses will submit written testimony and have five minutes each to deliver verbal testimony. Committee members will likely ask follow up questions of witnesses to clarify points.

USARK opposes the addition of any constrictor snakes to the Injurious Wildlife list of the Lacey Act. The USGS “science” used to justify the action is biased and controversial. The economic impact to businesses engaged in herpetoculture has been ignored by the CBO. Additionally, there is a growing body of evidence suggesting that feral python populations are in drastic decline due to predation and cold, and cannot survive temperate climates north of south Florida. These facts have clearly demonstrated that the Lacey Act is an ineffective tool to deal with invasive species issues, as well as, the herpetoculture community.

Amendments to the bill may be introduced or passed. A vote to report the bill out could be taken. If passed as written, HR 511 would supersede the recent US Fish & Wildlife Service ‘rule change’ increasing the number of constrictors on the Injurious list to nine. (Boa constrictor, the northern and southern African pythons, Burmese python, reticulated python and all four anaconda species)

* According to govtrack.us, HR 511 has a 42% chance of passing the 112th Congress: To amend title 18, United States Code, to prohibit the importation of various injurious species of constrictor snakes. (H.R. 511) - GovTrack.us (http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/112/hr511).

What you can do to help!

1. Call or Fax Committee members from your state, and say ‘NO on HR 511′: Subcommittee on Fisheries, Wildlife, Oceans and Insular Affairs - House Committee on Natural Resources (http://naturalresources.house.gov/subcommittees/subcommittee/?SubcommitteeID=5063)

2. Watch the House Natural Resources Committee hearing on HR 511 LIVE at this link at 10:00 AM Thursday November 29th, 2012: Watch Live Hearings - House Committee on Natural Resources (http://naturalresources.house.gov/live/).

3. Tell all your friends and family to watch this important hearing for the herpetoculture community LIVE at this link: Watch Live Hearings - House Committee on Natural Resources (http://naturalresources.house.gov/live/)





Posted in Featured | Tagged Andrew Wyatt, Boa constrictor, Brady Barr, House Natural Resources Committee, HR 511, John Flemming, Python Ban, Shawn Heflick, Tom Rooney, USARK, USFWS, USGS | Leave a response

[Philmul]

What 9 snakes are banned in your country

[Slcburm]

Say Bye Bye to python breeders asap and owners once their snakes pass away if the sucker makes it through. Appears to be a lot of other crap to worry about than this. I have already contacted the appropriate people on this and hoping others do as well

[millertime89]

What 9 snakes are banned in your country

None currently, however last January a 4 species were added to the Lacey Act list of injurious species which prevents them from being transported across state lines or imported. Basically it prevented people from taking them if they moved, or breeders shipping them out of state, pretty big deal.
The 4 species were Yellow Anaconda, Burmese/Indian python, Northern African rock python and Southern African rock python. Why they recognized one disputed taxonomy change but not the other is beyond me.
The 5 remaining species that HR511 seeks to add are the reticulated python, Green Anaconda, Beni's Anaconda, DeSchauensee Anaconda, and all species of Boa Constrictor. The first and last are obviously the biggest concern, especially since 2 of the Anaconda species are not known to exist in captivity.

[Rogue628]

I knew it was coming.



USARK opposes the addition of any constrictor snakes to the Injurious Wildlife list of the Lacey Act. The USGS “science” used to justify the action is biased and controversial. The economic impact to businesses engaged in herpetoculture has been ignored by the CBO. Additionally, there is a growing body of evidence suggesting that feral python populations are in drastic decline due to predation and cold, and cannot survive temperate climates north of south Florida. These facts have clearly demonstrated that the Lacey Act is an ineffective tool to deal with invasive species issues, as well as, the herpetoculture community.




Who is saying this? USARK? Their expert witnesses? Research? Statistics that are completely unbiased?

For once, ALL reptile keepers need to take a stand and show support. Even if you don't keep or even like these species, if you allow them to place these on the Lacy Act, you may as well give up your other reptile keeping rights. They're not going to stop with these. This is just the beginning to the end of our keeping any reptilian animal.

[Philmul]

I would be gutted if I couldn't have my boa. I'm glad there is no ban over here

[millertime89]

Who is saying this? USARK? Their expert witnesses? Research? Statistics that are completely unbiased?

USARK and several different scientific studies. Have you seen the USGS study? Says Burms can survive as far north as Virginia. They used average temperature data and ignored extremes which are what kills snakes.



Latest on HR 511
A subcommittee hearing has been scheduled for Thursday, November 29, 2012 at 10 am on HR 511, the federal bill introduced to the United States House of Representatives on January 26, 2011 to prohibit most importation to the US, and shipment between the various states, of the following snakes: Indian python, Burmese Python, reticulated python, northern African python, southern African python, boa constrictor, yellow anaconda, DeSchauensee's anaconda, green anaconda, and Beni anaconda. On January 17, 2012, the US Fish and Wildlife Service (USRWS) announced the same ban through regulation, but limited to the Indian Python, Burmese python, yellow anaconda, and the northern and southern African python. Both of these bans are under the Lacey Act, the only difference being the ban already imposed by regulation can be lifted or amended by the USFWS, whereas a ban occurring by the aforementioned bill becoming law could only be lifted or amended by a vote of the US House of Representatives, US Senate and signature of the President (or override of his veto).

The Lacey Act is a wildlife and plant conservation law. The injurious animal provision allows the USFWS to list as injurious animals any species determined to be injurious to human beings, to the interests of agriculture, horticulture, forestry, or to wildlife or the wildlife resources of the United States. The USFWS listed the Indian Python, Burmese python, yellow anaconda, and northern and southern African python as injurious animals this past January via regulation “in order to restrict their spread in the wild in the United States.” “Burmese pythons have already caused substantial harm in Florida,” said U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service Director Dan Ashe. “By taking this action today, we will help prevent further harm from these large constrictor snakes to native wildlife, especially in habitats that can support constrictor snake populations across the southern United States and in U.S. territories.” In its press release, USFWS highlighted the predation by Burmese pythons of endangered Key Largo wood rats and wood storks.

In addition to the Lacey Act listing by USFWS above, the State of Florida's Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission (FFWCC) had a law enacted that significantly restricts the importation to and possession in Florida of the Indian python, Burmese python, northern and southern African python, reticulated python, amethystine python, scrub python, green anaconda, and Nile monitor. These animals were selected by FFWCC as most threatening because of their large size and extreme predatory natures.

The Committee Report accompanying HR 511 sets forth four reasons to support enactment of the bill:
1. the Florida law failed to stop the establishment of a breeding population of Burmese pythons.
2. The 2009 USGS risk assessment concluded that that the only probable way these species become established in the United States is through the pet trade.
3. A pet Burmese python strangled a 2-year-old girl in her bedroom and at least 13 other people have been killed by pet pythons since 1980. A 16-foot pound python was able to swallow a 76-pound deer.
4. Native mammal species are disappearing--or are already gone--from areas in the River of Grass infested by the giant Southeast Asian snakes.

Here’s the position of USARK:
USARK opposes the addition of any constrictor snakes to the Injurious Wildlife list of the Lacey Act. The USGS “science” used to justify the action is biased and controversial. The economic impact to businesses engaged in herpetoculture has been ignored by the CBO. Additionally, there is a growing body of evidence suggesting that feral python populations are in drastic decline due to predation and cold, and cannot survive temperate climates north of south Florida. These facts have clearly demonstrated that the Lacey Act is an ineffective tool to deal with invasive species issues, as well as, the herpetoculture community.

[iBaman]

I don't know if anyone is aware, but we won =3 20% were for it, 80% against it.

[millertime89]

no, we didn't win, that's just the up-to-date results of people who are going to that site and saying if they're for or against passing of the legislation. It's up for debate on Thursday.

[StudentoReptile]

If only it were up to us.

[millertime89]

Story from E&E…
NATURAL RESOURCES:
Panel to discuss bill banning snakes on planes

John McArdle, E&E reporter

Published: Tuesday, November 27, 2012

The House Natural Resources Committee will take up a bill Thursday that would ban the importation and interstate transportation of nine kinds of constrictor snakes that proponents say are a menace to south Florida and a growing threat to communities around the country.

The bill, sponsored by Rep. Tom Rooney (R-Fla.), would be a more stringent version of a rule put in place early this year by the Interior Department that effectively bans the Burmese python, yellow anaconda, and northern and southern African pythons by labeling them "injurious" wildlife under the Lacey Act.

Rooney agrees those snakes are a threat to the Florida Everglades, but he also wants the reticulated python, green anaconda, Beni or Bolivian python, DeSchauensee's anaconda and boa constrictor to be added to the Lacey Act list. The congressman has argued that along with causing severe damage to the environment and wiping out several small mammal populations in the Everglades, the massive predators are a threat to local communities.

Rooney's effort to secure tougher restrictions than the Obama administration imposed has put the lawmaker in the same camp as environmentalists and animal advocates like the Humane Society, which have pushed for years for a ban on all nine snakes.

Over the summer, after reports that a red-tailed boa constrictor was discovered outside the home of an unsuspecting resident in Malden, Mass., the Humane Society said the incident demonstrated the "urgent need" for Rooney's legislation.

"The trade in these non-native snakes threatens public safety, animal welfare and the environment," the group said in a statement.

So far Rooney, who will testify at the hearing, has secured 16 House co-sponsors -- including eight Democrats and 11 members of the Florida delegation -- for his bill, H.R. 511.

The legislation passed the House Judiciary Committee in February by voice vote (E&E Daily, Feb. 29).

But Rooney's biggest challenge may come from lawmakers in his own party who have painted the constrictor rule as an example of an overbearing regulatory system. House Oversight and Government Reform Chairman Darrell Issa (R-Calif.) was critical of the Interior Department snake restriction when it was moving through the rulemaking process.

Meanwhile, representatives of the reptile trade industry have lobbied hard against the bill.

Andrew Wyatt, CEO of the U.S. Association of Reptile Keepers, said yesterday that his group was on Capitol Hill in October meeting with members of the House Resources Committee in anticipation that the panel would take up the legislation.

Wyatt's group has commissioned a study that estimates Rooney's bill would cost the industry about $104 million a year in lost revenue.

Wyatt, who also will testify, said yesterday that he intends to help the committee understand that there is "a growing body of evidence" that proves the threat of large snakes in Florida is overstated.

"It's going to become pretty clear during this hearing that this whole thing has been exaggerated and overplayed by the media and by politicians," he said. "The media just loves this story and loves getting guys from the Park Service ... with a large python, wrestling it like Steve Irwin or something, and turning this into a circus."

He added, "We've got serious issues to deal with, and we're talking about pythons in the Everglades like it's some kind of national issue. It's not."

Schedule: The hearing is Thursday, Nov. 29, at 10 a.m. in 1334 Longworth.

Witnesses: Rep. Tom Rooney (R-Fla.); Andrew Wyatt, president, U.S. Association of Reptile Keepers; Shawn Heflick, "Python Hunters," National Geographic Channel; Brady Barr, "Dangerous Encounters," National Geographic Channel; Marshall Meyers, senior adviser, Pet Industry Joint Advisory Council.

[Jakesgirl]

I think it should be required that people prove they can take care of their pet properly before buying, but I don't think it should be banned completely. Maybe make people have to get a permit. I only believe this because there are some people who just get these creatures for the novelty of it. Then they get bored, and the animal suffers because of it.

[millertime89]

I'm a proponent of having a permit system for bigger/venomous snakes and large lizards, but we need to defeat this bill before we can go about making changes like that. I know quite a few retic breeders who will only sell to people that they know and know can take care of these animals when they get big.

[Donnie]

I would be gutted if I couldn't have my boa. I'm glad there is no ban over here

Something similar may be coming our way. The EU are looking to introduce the invasive alien species legislation that will affect us in the UK. Even though species that will be able to survive in southern Europe won't have a chance in our colder climate they will still be banned/prohibited here as well

Federation of British Herpetologists - European Union debates ban on pet reptiles (http://www.f-b-h.org/news/120720_bandebate.html)

(Sorry for hijacking the USA ban thread)

[millertime89]

(Sorry for hijacking the USA ban thread)

Its still relevant I think.

[Lankyrob]

Something similar may be coming our way. The EU are looking to introduce the invasive alien species legislation that will affect us in the UK. Even though species that will be able to survive in southern Europe won't have a chance in our colder climate they will still be banned/prohibited here as well

Federation of British Herpetologists - European Union debates ban on pet reptiles (http://www.f-b-h.org/news/120720_bandebate.html)

(Sorry for hijacking the USA ban thread)

I have contacted my MP and MEP regarding this ban, i have been assured taht the ban will neveer happen, its being used to introduce a new piece of legislation in a european country that will clamp down on venomous animals (similar to our dwa license) but wont affect the UK. (this was allexplained to me on the phone by my MEP so sorry for teh sketchyness) ;)

[Donnie]

I have contacted my MP and MEP regarding this ban, i have been assured taht the ban will neveer happen, its being used to introduce a new piece of legislation in a european country that will clamp down on venomous animals (similar to our dwa license) but wont affect the UK. (this was allexplained to me on the phone by my MEP so sorry for teh sketchyness) ;)

Rob I really hope this is true but my faith in believing what politicians say was lost a long time ago. I think the proposal is being put forward early next year so we should possibly know a bit more then.

[jasonw]

Reptile News: HR511 Hearing, Full Length (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09vm3MPvAjY)

[Lankyrob]

This would probably be better posted in the ban thread :)

[jasonw]

Agreed and thank you, can you post a link? I took a quick look and didn't see it.

[jasonw]

Reptile News: Shawn Heflick and DRN on HR511 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZDru1ur05c)

[Donnie]

Here it is Jason

http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/giant-python-discussion/89933-one-only-python-ban-thread.html

[infernalis]

all moved....

[TJ's Pythons]

there is ways around the ban be come a registered rescue and you are able to own almost any sized snake

[StudentoReptile]

there is ways around the ban be come a registered rescue and you are able to own almost any sized snake

Easier said than done. I know a handful of legit 501(c)3 rescues that have been given the run-around trying to get such permits. The process for granting approval permits just creates more work for the FWS, so they obviously will either drag their feet or simply deny any requests outright. They do both very routinely.

[Aaron_S]

Easier said than done. I know a handful of legit 501(c)3 rescues that have been given the run-around trying to get such permits. The process for granting approval permits just creates more work for the FWS, so they obviously will either drag their feet or simply deny any requests outright. They do both very routinely.

I'm also sure they've seen enough people running a "rescue" for the posters reason. To get around local laws as well as to get "free" reptiles.