Breeding Loans

[Strutter769]

Has anyone (other than those I have already asked) done one of these "transactions?" From what I understand its a pretty unique way to get some new blood/traits into your collection. Sometimes its for cash, most times for a portion of the litter.

I also thought I'd read that it's best to introduce the two in the female's enclosure, and learned today it probably doesn't matter all that much. Again today I learned something.

[stephanbakir]

I've done it a few times, with retics you need to cool the male so its always male into females enclosure. That being said 9 times out of 10 are Female goes to the Males location, the reason is simple, the breeder likely has 3-6 females lined up for that male and quarantine means that the animals will need to be appart for 6 months, making it difficult to breed the new animal and his own stock.
The way I've done it is simple, each breeder gets 2 holdbacks, if you cant come to a reasonable agreement on who gets what, you solve it with a coin toss. The rest of the clutch is sold and split evenly. For me it's worked but my animals have large clutches, not sure how that would work with snakes that have small clutches or statistically annoying clutches, liked double het to double het, or even tripple het to tripple het.

Keep in mind that breeding loans HAVE BROKEN UP FRIENDSHIPS, I did a loan with an old friend and I got what I wanted and he didn't (I was waiting for a different mutation then he was) and we haven't spoken since, not due to my lack of trying.

[BarelyBreathing]

I bunch of my friends do this. It's fairly common.

[Strutter769]

Thanks Steph. I appreciate all that info. Especially the part about working with friends. Maybe if everything were in writing prior to the mating, that might help? I definitely wouldn't want to ruin human friendships over a couple snakes.

You've raised another question. New post!!

[CK SandBoas]

Thanks Steph. I appreciate all that info. Especially the part about working with friends. Maybe if everything were in writing prior to the mating, that might help? I definitely wouldn't want to ruin human friendships over a couple snakes.

You've raised another question. New post!!


The most important thing is to get it in writing, explicitly stating the parties involved, which animals are involved, who will be housing the animals during the Breeding Loan, and what each party will receive from the results of the breeding. Having a legal contract will benefit you, and also the other party, if anything should occur.

[beardeds4life]

I personally have never done it but I see no problem with it as long as you are 100% whoever is taking your snake or you are taking theirs have NO diseases or sicknesses or anything because if you have thousands invested into your breeding program you wuld not want them all to die.

[stephanbakir]

Thats why quarantine is so important.

[Strutter769]

Quarantine the babies too, correct?

[millertime89]

Quarantine the babies too, correct?

I don't think that would be necessary, but I've never bred before.

[Strutter769]

Yeah, I thought that may be a bit of overkill.

[beardeds4life]

You would rather be safe then sorry

[peterm15]

Quarantine the babies too, correct?

from mom and pop? eachother? Other animals in your collection?

The only ones i would quaratine from is other animals... pathagins ( sp?) and desieses can be transfered from parents to babies.

[Strutter769]

from mom and pop? eachother? Other animals in your collection?

The only ones i would quaratine from is other animals... pathagins ( sp?) and desieses can be transfered from parents to babies.

I guess I meant quarantine from the rest of the collection.

[red ink]

I'll go the other way here and say no to the idea...

I personally would never do it, viruses like OMPV and IBD can wipe out entire collections and there's no way of detecting them on looks alone until it's too late. The issue of quarantine does not come into it as if your planning on a breeding loan they will come into contact with each other.

I quarantine all new snakes in my collection for 12 months. I use F10 spray on my hands each time I handle a snake (even the ones I have owned for a while). I dunk feed tongs in F10 solution each time I pick up a rat to feed.

I do not let other reptile owners in my snake room unless they are sterelised. Paranoid I know but I'd rather that than complacency wipe out my collection.

[Strutter769]

I agree it sounds risky to me. There would have to somehow be enough trust built up prior. I doubt I'd find anyone locally who I'd build that with. It'd have to be some outrageous, PROVEN trait in order to even consider I guess.

[stephanbakir]

Regarding quarantining babies, its unneeded because you quarantined the new mother right? since both parents have been through quarantine the offspring should be safe also.

[Strutter769]

Hypothetically speaking, yes. Mom would have been quarantined prior.

[shaunyboy]

Has anyone (other than those I have already asked) done one of these "transactions?" From what I understand its a pretty unique way to get some new blood/traits into your collection. Sometimes its for cash, most times for a portion of the litter.

I also thought I'd read that it's best to introduce the two in the female's enclosure, and learned today it probably doesn't matter all that much. Again today I learned something.

i would do breeding loans with people i trusted,including people i've met on forums

the couple i met on forums,have also kindly brought back over £1000 worth of snakes from europe for me

so as long as you know someone well enough,then i see no problems with a breeding loan.the forum couple were,schroomy from on here and his wife

re breeding
i believe its better to introduce the male into the females tank.imo a female may go about exploring the males tank,where as a male usually is more interested in the female,than exploring

cheers shaun

[Strutter769]

I like your reasoning for introducing them at her house. Seems it would be difficult to meet someone who lives close enough to go through this whole process.

[stephanbakir]

I like your reasoning for introducing them at her house. Seems it would be difficult to meet someone who lives close enough to go through this whole process.
Animals are normally shipped, keep in mind that he was probably referring to "enclosure" not house, as I said males breed multiple females so the female generally goes to the "house" of the male. Over the 6-10 month quarantine the females will get totally acclimated to their new enclosure and you then introduce the male in with the female in her "enclosure".

[Strutter769]

Ok! Now that makes sense! I feel silly now. I know what you mean by enclosure. I was using "house" in a sort of slang manner. That's tough to convey in text. Sorry! Lol

Wow! So now there are shipping fees involved. Ok. I wasn't counting on that. So, obviously another detail that'd have to be spelled out in writing and agreed upon.

[stephanbakir]

Depending on the species, shipping fees are too bad. (be sure to include feeding costs in the agreement)
I know that in most states they have a flat shipping fee and its only about 50$ american to ship most snakes the size of a ball python adult and down. If you are talking about larger species like rtb, retics burms etc... the price can be huge but 100$ for return shipping is pennies compared to the potential return.

I've been pointing out all the good sides, but I'm feeling compelled to describe the other side of the coin, your animals could DIE if you slip up and dont follow quarantine to the letter, you could lose a valuable friendship, you could end up with a female who chooses to take a year off, something could go wrong during shipping and your snake could get an RI and cost you a mint in vet bills, the male and female could get violent and require a vet visit, and either a "bandaid" or stitches/staples depending on the species or they could just die.

The female could slug out because she wasnt ready, or the male wasnt cooled enough, or the male isn't fertile... Things happen, you need to do your best to prepare for the expected and the unexpected. Even breeding within your own collection things happen we dont expect... Females getting egg bound etc... things happen and its your job to follow your dreams and try to minimize the stumbles along the way and how to handle the stumbles that do happen.

[Strutter769]

Wow, thank you for that! "It's your job to follow your dreams." Believe me when I say that could well be the best advice I've ever been given. Amazing words. Thank you!

[infernalis]

I did once, but I had the other owner bring her female snake to me, she left it here, I brumated the female to stimulate ovulation, used one of my males as the stud and after witnessing a couple of lockups, I gave her back the female snake.

[Strutter769]

"...minimize the stumbles and (learn) how to handle the stumbles that do happen." Precisely why I spend hours on here asking the questions, talking to the most reputable breeders, reading and trying to understand genetics the best I can. I have such a love for these animals and a respect for the responsibilities I am taking on. Responsibilities to my animals, the breeders from whom i will have created my collection, my future customers, the hobby itself! It's all really exciting and challenging and rewarding.... I could go on.... luckily I won't.

[Strutter769]

I did once, but I had the other owner bring her female snake to me, she left it here, I brumated the female to stimulate ovulation, used one of my males as the stud and after witnessing a couple of lockups, I gave her back the female snake.

Was it successful, and did you get a portion of the litter? Sounds like you did all the work!

[jaleely]

Hmm i might be willing with someone i knew had a healthy snake collection. Like, basically the people i've already bought snakes from. I don't know anyone else! lol
I would probably be really paranoid though. These are totally my babies.
I have a couple rescues and they are still being quarantined after 5 months. And still will be. And we totally use the hand sanitizer thing, and they have all their own cleaning stuff, substrate, etc upstairs with them that doesn't mix with my other snakes.

I do admit though, there are couple times in the past month i have been lax...i feel bad about it too. Not big things, but hey, it only takes one little thing.

[infernalis]

Was it successful, and did you get a portion of the litter? Sounds like you did all the work!

Yes she had babies, and no I didn't want any, I had my hands full with 400+ other babies to tend to at the time.