Calling all snake breeders...

[Strutter769]

As many of you know, I am now collecting the most beautiful BRB's I can afford, all of whom will be bred when the time comes, I will also (hopefully) breed Madagascan Ground and also Dominican Red Mountain boas.

As you know, I have 0.3 BRB: A "Normal" who is getting more red by the day, a high-red, ans a Pearl, which leaves me at a crossroads of sorts. My wife would like to "specialize" or continue improving the high-red color, are making better and better Pearl phase.

I would like to diversify, and bring in a very high orange male, and I know of a striped male available that I have already had to pass on once. There is also a breeder who is crossing an AMAZING copper-colored BRB to a "chocolate" line. I cannot wait to see those babies!!

Now, I know some are really into hypos (myself excluded), and they carry a pretty high price tag, as do the aneries!

My question to all of you: Is your goal to make one particular trait even better than the last litter, it, do you want to diversify and have reds, oranges, hypos, Pearls, stripes, etc.

Please let me know what you think and why.

Thank you!!

[KORBIN5895]

I like diversity myself. But if you focus on one trait you could be the next peter kahl or Dan brown.

[Strutter769]

I know Kahlil has a line of boas, What is Dan Brown known for?

[Lankyrob]

I know Kahlil has a line of boas, What is Dan Brown known for?


He wrote "The Da Vinci Code" - quite a good book but it divides opinion ;)

[Strutter769]

Well, with the purchase of 1.0 High Red, I could work on improving the red color, it with 1.0 Pearl, I could produce those; however, my gut tells me "Pearls" will become more commonplace (like bullseyes) by the time my girls mature. It's gotta be difficult/expensive to stay "cutting edge" the way Dave (Colling) has with his amazing new candy-stripe line. I know he was also able to get some Pearls breeding a Pearl x Normal, although I understand that's not the norm.

So, to specialize would be to have the best reds, or the best oranges, or the best Pearls, or stripes... whereas when diversifying, I could work on a striped "Pearl" (Don't steal my idea, Dave or Cliff! Lol) which I think would be cool. My wife thinks that'd be "too many things going on with one animal."

I'm now studying herp genetics, but I'm not that far into the book yet. So, I still have practically everything to learn in the next three years. I know it'll also raise tons of questions too, which is why I have you guys!

[Strutter769]

I also have another question, about breeding more than one male to a female. What are the benefits (to me, obviously I know the benefits to the female! Lol) of this practice? Higher odds of a successful breed? I've also read that the introduction of a second male will kind of entice the other male to breed. But how do you know what types of babies to expect? I understand that's not a big issue, especially if the males are similar, but lets say I breed a high red female to both an orange male and a chocolate male? For the sake of this argument, lets say she locks upbwith both.... What babies should I expect?

[red ink]

I focus on what I personally like in my breedings, not after anything new or spectacular.

[beardeds4life]

I also have another question, about breeding more than one male to a female. What are the benefits (to me, obviously I know the benefits to the female! Lol) of this practice? Higher odds of a successful breed? I've also read that the introduction of a second male will kind of entice the other male to breed. But how do you know what types of babies to expect? I understand that's not a big issue, especially if the males are similar, but lets say I breed a high red female to both an orange male and a chocolate male? For the sake of this argument, lets say she locks upbwith both.... What babies should I expect?

I have no snakes and never had but I do know that there is no way to know what hatches out the possibilities are 1. The babies are all from male number one 2. he babies are all from male number two and so one with how many you breed but there is a slight chance that it was sired by both so half of the clutch would be from one male and the other half the other. I hope this makes sense...

[Strutter769]

I understand there's no way to know for sure, and even knowing the odds, it's still all up to chance. I did not however, know both males could sire neonates in the same litter. Thanks for that.

Still looking for more input on specializing or diversifying. Any and all input is welcome.

Where are all the breeders tonight?

[beardeds4life]

I am not a breeder but I am a buyer :) and I think that you will get more business with diversity because there will be more snakes appealing to one person and more of a chance of someone liking an animal that you have. Lets say I only breed pastel ball pythons I would only sell to people who like pastels.

[red ink]

You have to look at it at where you want to be and how/if you want to be known...

Say for example with carpets (as this is what I know)

I know who to get jungles from....

Who to get bredlis from

who to get coastals from

etc.. etc...

Sure there are plenty of others that breed these but as always the highest quality or the ones most sought after are the animals of people who specialise with them.

In boas as you would know if you were after a certain morph, locality or what ever you would instantly know who to source them from, why? Most likely cause that's what they specialise in. I'm sure there are other people who have the morphs your after but is any animal of that morph good enough for you or do you go to the source so to speak?

That's what you gotta ask yourself...

[Strutter769]

Bearded and Ink, thanks for your replies. Bearded, I definitely understand what you mean about appealing to the masses with diversity and that's a huge point!

Red, I'm not sure I am as clear on your point. I do want to be the go-to guy for somethin', I'm just not sure what traits of the BRB I could specialize in, especially being YEARS behind guys like rainbowsrus, Snakesitter, Bryan Hummel, Aubrey Ross @ Slipstream, and those are only the names I know, not to mention all the others.

So, what could I be the go-to guy for? *thinking out loud* I could possibly work on redder reds, more brilliant oranges, maybe cleaner Pearls, (I still like the idea of a striped Pearl. I haven't seen that's yet.

Any other suggestions on what traits one could specialize in?

[Rainbowsrus]

I also have another question, about breeding more than one male to a female. What are the benefits What babies should I expect?

Dangerous ground here. when bred by two males, even if only seen mating with one, the real question is who's the daddy. You'll never be the "go to guy" with unknown lineage babies. I've only used multiple males a few times and then only when the males are siblings with the same genetic traits.



I am not a breeder but I am a buyer :) and I think that you will get more business with diversity because there will be more snakes appealing to one person and more of a chance of someone liking an animal that you have. Lets say I only breed pastel ball pythons I would only sell to people who like pastels.

I totally agree. I am a breeder and I get buyers wanting all different things. Some want red, others want orange, some like Hypo and others want a more natural looking plainer snake. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder




Bearded and Ink, thanks for your replies. Bearded, I definitely understand what you mean about appealing to the masses with diversity and that's a huge point!

Red, I'm not sure I am as clear on your point. I do want to be the go-to guy for somethin', I'm just not sure what traits of the BRB I could specialize in, especially being YEARS behind guys like rainbowsrus, Snakesitter, Bryan Hummel, Aubrey Ross @ Slipstream, and those are only the names I know, not to mention all the others.

So, what could I be the go-to guy for? *thinking out loud* I could possibly work on redder reds, more brilliant oranges, maybe cleaner Pearls, (I still like the idea of a striped Pearl. I haven't seen that's yet.

Any other suggestions on what traits one could specialize in?


You do raise a very valid point, being years behind other more well known breeders. But remember, each of us "well known breeders" was in your shoes at one time. I can freely admit I was not born a well known breeder! ;-)

Becoming the "go to guy" for anything is the result of years of hard work and persistence.

To get there, collect the BEST specimens you can find/afford. HOLD BACK the cream of their crops. Keep detailed records of what worked vs what did not. And mostly, have fun doing it, cause if you're not having fun, why are you doing it??

[Nismo89]

When I shop for BRBs I'm really more of a naturalist for them. I love all BRB morphs and variations but I will always be partial to the originals. For all around boa breeders I'd really like to see some more people breeding locality specific BCC and keeping them pure. Lastly I'd like to say just breed what you yourself want in your collection because at least then if they don't sell for awhile you won't mind taking care of them.

[marvelfreak]

Becoming the "go to guy" for anything is the result of years of hard work and persistence.

To get there, collect the BEST specimens you can find/afford. HOLD BACK the cream of their crops. Keep detailed records of what worked vs what did not. And mostly, have fun doing it, cause if you're not having fun, why are you doing it??
That's the best advice i ever read.:)

[red ink]

Red, I'm not sure I am as clear on your point. I do want to be the go-to guy for somethin', I'm just not sure what traits of the BRB I could specialize in, especially being YEARS behind guys like rainbowsrus, Snakesitter, Bryan Hummel, Aubrey Ross @ Slipstream, and those are only the names I know, not to mention all the others.

So, what could I be the go-to guy for? *thinking out loud* I could possibly work on redder reds, more brilliant oranges, maybe cleaner Pearls, (I still like the idea of a striped Pearl. I haven't seen that's yet.

Any other suggestions on what traits one could specialize in?

Mate specialising in something takes years of work and persistance with a line or you could buy the morphs now and diversify and churn them out. You would be selling more and making a faster turn over by diversifying but if you look at market trends say for example (this is were it gets a bit difficult for me as I know nothing about the market outside of Oz) "Pearls". I'm sure ther are a lot of people who breed them but who has the "best"? They got there by specialising in them.... and in the market I'm sure their pearls (who ever they are) command a higher price, may even have a waiting list.

If you want to specialise the best thing you could do is decide what you are really interested in and where you want to go as it seems to me your current indecisive state comes from all the flash bang colours your seeing (I'm the smae I just want them all). To "specialise" you have to focus and narrow down what/which you will get the most satisfaction out of (only you can decide that). Specialising in something could mean a decade of your life in the reptile world. A lot of persperation, frustration and not to mention upkeep and the room you will need to "line breed" which in most people's cases who can't setup a medium sized breeding facility, means no new animals coming in just progenies. Single minded focus is what's needed to specialise.

You can probably narrow your questions to...
Long term goals Vs Short term profits (I don't mean profits as in money I mean as satisfaction)

[Strutter769]

When I shop for BRBs I'm really more of a naturalist for them. I love all BRB morphs and variations but I will always be partial to the originals.

So, if I'm understanding you correctly, you like the nice, red, with crescents etc.. but don't like the hypos, pearls, stripes etc.

[/QUOTE] For all around boa breeders I'd really like to see some more people breeding locality specific BCC and keeping them pure. [/QUOTE]

WHO OH WHY do people breed a beautiful Suriname (spelled correctly) to a much less exotic Colombian (also spelled correctly)?! That just boggles the mind!!

[/QUOTE] Lastly I'd like to say just breed what you yourself want in your collection because at least then if they don't sell for awhile you won't mind taking care of them.[/QUOTE]

Great advice, I think will be quite easy to adhere to!

[beardeds4life]

I totally agree why in the hel* would you keep/breed morphs you do not personally enjoy unless it was for profit (but I know you are not) and you might end up having them a long time. Personally I would specialize in like 5 morphs so you can get the best of both worlds but then also some small projects just to further diversity your collection and what you have available. I hope you have a lot of space if you want to become the go to guy because you will need to always have a lot of females and stuff but I think when you do breed you should sell them all over a long period of time so you always have babies available because you will never become the go to guy if you do not always have babies available.

[Nismo89]

So, if I'm understanding you correctly, you like the nice, red, with crescents etc.. but don't like the hypos, pearls, stripes etc.

WHO OH WHY do people breed a beautiful Suriname (spelled correctly) to a much less exotic Colombian (also spelled correctly)?! That just boggles the mind!!

Great advice, I think will be quite easy to adhere to!

Yes I like just the really clean distinct patterns in BRBs.

I couldn't agree more with the second statement. I've recently been looking for a good importer to get a few pure boas that way.

When it comes to boas I'm all for the natural look of them. I don't mind looking at the fancy BRB morphs but the only one I would actually purchase is a high orange.

[jaleely]

Hmm i've read though only half of this...but what i suggest is...Pics!!! I would like to see the pearl *lol*

[Snakesitter]

I gotta agree with Dave: best to breed no more than one male to each female if you want to know parentage. And, especially with a small collection, you need to know parentage in order to outcross within your limited gene pool later on.

Were I you, I’d go for diversity, except for your single favorite -- not most marketable, but favorite -- trait. Make sure you have one of each gender for that trait and see how far you can take it. That will give you the best of both worlds.

As with most things Brazilian, side patterns are still years away from being fully developed: the genetics are not nailed down yet, and many of the animals sold under those labels do not show that pattern exclusively -- often, in fact, not even at the 50% mark, judging by ads I’ve seen.

Hope this helps!

[Strutter769]

Hmm i've read though only half of this...but what i suggest is...Pics!!! I would like to see the pearl *lol*

'fraid we're going to promise a raincheck on that. She's lookin' a little cloudy tonight.

[Strutter769]

Apparently all the kids are doing it these days! Cici's blue too.

[beardeds4life]

I think you should get a rainbow boa male because you obviously like them if you have 3 :P

[Strutter769]

I think you should get a rainbow boa male because you obviously like them if you have 3 :P

All in due time my friend. All in due time.

[Strutter769]

Ink - You bring up a good point about market trends. How do I track those? By my own sales? Or is that stuff discussed in other, more "breeder-heavy" websites? Is it comfortably discussed or is it a "hush-hush" proprietary-type info?

"Pearls" appear to be one of the more current faves, I know Dave has his new findings, I'm sure Cliff is up to something (just a suspicion, Cliff!), everyone's up to something! Lol I guess that's what makes this so exciting!

Anyway, what I'm gettin' at is, I won't be on the scene for four loooooooong years, how do I foretell what'll be big then?

Am I taking too much of a business approach to this? Should I just chill out and just collect the best I can now and let the rest work itself out? I'm really trying to get "ahead of the game" without "putting the cart before the horse." Ok, could I use another cliche'?

I understand I'm at least a decade from where I wanna be, and I say "Bring it!"

Ink and Bearded brought up a common point - space. Can someone please give me an idea if how much space we're talking about? We're really trying to figure out where in the country we want to live. I HATE the animal laws where I live and honestly haven't abided apparently for the last 14 years. So, I need to know what to look for size-wise for my "facility."

Ink brings up another good point. If you want to specialize, you have to be single-minded. That's definitely not me, so I know which option I'm going with!

Goals... Never in my life have I been good at these... Ever.... In anything..... So it's with quite a bit of embarrassment I ask, what is a realistic goal? I want to create awesome animals, and hopefully have some sense of direction and enough understanding of the breeding process and genetics to make that happen more often than not. Realistic? Too vague? Too long-term?

Cliff and Dave - One male per female! Got it!

Cliff - Favorite trait = The highest white sides possible! White shows off whatever the lateral pattern is so well, I love it! Is that a visual that can be proven? I know VERY little about genetics (reading more every day and really trying to comprehend), so I have no idea if that's even something I CAN try to accomplish. My luck, probably not..... so I'll have to come up with another. I also understand that genetics of lateral patterns has not yet developed.... So.... what does that leave me to set as either short- or long-term goals now??

Ok, now my brain's tired. Thanks for reading this through to the end!

[beardeds4life]

I think you can have one male for 2 females why not? And you should live in california. We have perfect weather and no animal laws! I figure out what is selling and prices and stuff. I spend hours upon hours looking at ads and how much things are selling for to figure out what the market is. For goals I would do something easy to start off with that you could produce in 1-2 years but you also need some interesting stuff to hatch out very year or else you will get bored :) Right now I think your best bet will be to buy a pair of sub-adults that will go next year to get the ball rolling. I would also start producing all of your own rats and mice. If you start like that then you could make enough to purchase some more nicer things or at least make it so that your loses are not so great every year until the babies breed. I do not know the boa world but if i were me right now I would buy a pair of pastels or maybe a spider and a normal or something like that just to get the ball rolling. Best of luck to you.

P.S. I would wait till the market for babies is at it lowest point before you buy anything more :) I would also post ads on kingsnake and the like

[red ink]

Ink - You bring up a good point about market trends. How do I track those? By my own sales? Or is that stuff discussed in other, more "breeder-heavy" websites? Is it comfortably discussed or is it a "hush-hush" proprietary-type info?

Classifieds mate, check whats moving fast and what is'nt. Have a look at what's dropping and what's staying at a more constant price. You also have to consider what everybody else is buying and keeping as if your not going to specialise, these guys are your competition when they breed their pairs and dump the hatchlings on the market...

The more people say owning and breeding pearls, the more they will be available in the market which will drive the price down.

When it comes to diversifying and trying to get ahead what you want is rarity, the rarer stuff you have in your collection the better.

"Pearls" appear to be one of the more current faves, I know Dave has his new findings, I'm sure Cliff is up to something (just a suspicion, Cliff!), everyone's up to something! Lol I guess that's what makes this so exciting!

That would be fantastic on the current market if you can get breeding pairs of these animals, you'll be right in the thick of things (but also remember/consider my point above)

Anyway, what I'm gettin' at is, I won't be on the scene for four loooooooong years, how do I foretell what'll be big then?

You can't really, you factor in depreciation from the start as with every clutch produced of whatever morph it adds to the surplus and adds to the availability.

Am I taking too much of a business approach to this? Should I just chill out and just collect the best I can now and let the rest work itself out? I'm really trying to get "ahead of the game" without "putting the cart before the horse." Ok, could I use another cliche'?

I understand I'm at least a decade from where I wanna be, and I say "Bring it!"

Ink and Bearded brought up a common point - space. Can someone please give me an idea if how much space we're talking about? We're really trying to figure out where in the country we want to live. I HATE the animal laws where I live and honestly haven't abided apparently for the last 14 years. So, I need to know what to look for size-wise for my "facility."

Not knowing Boa husbundry (you would be better to answer that), but here are points you need to look at in terms of space...

1) Adult size enclosures - how many breeding pairs of adults are you going to have.

2) From the number of enclosures/tubs you need for adults, now go ahead and double that number required for that i.e. if you have ten enclosures for 5 pairs of breeding adults allocate for another ten for your breeding holdbacks that will stay with you and go into your breeding, so that's 20 adult enclosures all together.

3) hatchling racks (lots of them) again myself not knowing boa husbandry only you can calculate that space.

4) Yearling racks, you need these for individuals that haven't sold or individuals you are waiting to "colour" up and find out if your going to keep them or not. I know some breeders that purposely keep a certain number of these racks for the sole purpose of selling the specimens as yearlings as they move faster on the market and command a higher price (most of the time)

*OPTIONAL
5) Food breeding facility space - mice and rats, this will lower your overheads if your breeding your own food as you will find that it may also be another source of income as you can sell the surplus prey items.

Ink brings up another good point. If you want to specialize, you have to be single-minded. That's definitely not me, so I know which option I'm going with!

That's great, now you have a better direction in what/where you want to go with it.

Goals... Never in my life have I been good at these... Ever.... In anything..... So it's with quite a bit of embarrassment I ask, what is a realistic goal? I want to create awesome animals, and hopefully have some sense of direction and enough understanding of the breeding process and genetics to make that happen more often than not. Realistic? Too vague? Too long-term?

Cliff and Dave - One male per female! Got it!

Cliff - Favorite trait = The highest white sides possible! White shows off whatever the lateral pattern is so well, I love it! Is that a visual that can be proven? I know VERY little about genetics (reading more every day and really trying to comprehend), so I have no idea if that's even something I CAN try to accomplish. My luck, probably not..... so I'll have to come up with another. I also understand that genetics of lateral patterns has not yet developed.... So.... what does that leave me to set as either short- or long-term goals now??

Ok, now my brain's tired. Thanks for reading this through to the end!


Mate since your going to do with diversity and want to be on top or at least in the thick of things what you really need now is capital and lots of it. In order to stay ahead at the start you need the new stuff, in order to do that you need $$$$.

So the point of buying what I can afford now must be looked at more carefully. What exactly is that.... can everybody else afford that or is that at the upper echalon of the market.

Again we need to factor in your competetion either directly (other breeders) or indirectly (pet owners with pairs). How many people can afford these morphs and how many people already have these morphs.

Hope that helps a bit mate.

[Strutter769]

What I understood was that two males to one female is not a good idea. I think it's pretty commonplace to breed a male to multiple females. Move to CA? I am a firm believer CA will one day become an island. :crazy: I just don't think I'm ready for that! Lol

I do constantly look at ads, and as someone (maybe even you) mentioned all the "flash-bang colors." I do in fact want a vast majority of them! If only my wallet could keep up with me.... things would be all right! Haha

Something to produce in 1-2 years.. That would determine the sub-adults I should be looking for. (Great idea BTW!) a sib-adult trio would be even better, obviously, right?

As for producing rats, we're a step ahead of ya. Already got the ball rollin' on that.

Wait until the market is at it's lowest... Late winter I am guessing? (Feb-Mar?)

Post ads. Will do! When I actually have $$ in hand. I have a really bad habit of asking about animals I have no way of affording at the time. (I hate having the genes of an addict!) I really need to have a wallet to open, in addition to my mouth! Lol

[jaleely]

Okay, i accept your rain-check *lol* can't wait!

[Strutter769]

I think they're usually about a week after clearing up, soooo...... maaaaybe... a week from Monday is my guess.. Stay tuned!

[Strutter769]

I failed to mention: I'm maybe a few dozen pages into "Genetics for Herpers" (Thank you whomever referred me.) Any other reading anyone recommends?

[beardeds4life]

No, the market is not at its lowest in winter that is usually when it is at its highest because everyone wants instant breeders and there is nothing on the market then. Wait until it is smack dab in the middle of hatching season and then BUY BUY BUY! Oh ya and it has been proven that it will take at least 1,000 years for california to become an island and you could live up north because that will stay attached!

[Strutter769]

Ok, another question for you breeding enthusiasts / genetics experts. Does it make more sense to add a male who has the overall color I want to integrate (Orange!), or would you chose a male with a dorsal stripe? This particular animal has pretty striping, but apparently has a brothers who is crazy striped!

I thought I'd read something about physical traits not being proven I think, so does that mean the striped male's offspring may NOT be striped at all, even though we know at least one litrermate is striped?

I'm not yet comfortable with codom traits, which I think is what this would be.

Can anyone clarify for me, please?

[beardeds4life]

Ok, I will try so just because one littermate is striped does NOT mean his babies will be. It is possible but not a guarantee. Personally, I would chose the striped male but at the same time buy an orange male (baby) and then once a striped female grows up ten cross the orange into her then line breed for a couple of years till you get what you want.

You could also look for an orange striped male and do it that way or you could buy an orange male then and a striped female and once an orange male s big enough breed it t the striped female. Hope this makes sense to you!

[Strutter769]

Nice, Beards. I also just learned from rainbowsrus that dorsal striping is not proven, which I believe is the exact point you just made.

And with that, I am happy officially announce I have reserved an amazing orange baby male from rainbowsrus himself. Great deal and incredible parents (The snake I mean. Although I'm sure Dave's P's are pretty cool too.). He's from the Abby x Fred pairing. I'd post pics, but I didn't ask his permission. Oh, I didn't ask my wife's permission either. Shhhhhh......

[Rainbowsrus]

Nice, Beards. I also just learned from rainbowsrus that dorsal striping is not proven, which I believe is the exact point you just made.

And with that, I am happy officially announce I have reserved an amazing orange baby male from rainbowsrus himself. Great deal and incredible parents (The snake I mean. Although I'm sure Dave's P's are pretty cool too.). He's from the Abby x Fred pairing. I'd post pics, but I didn't ask his permission. Oh, I didn't ask my wife's permission either. Shhhhhh......

In MOST cases, dorsal striping is not genetic and will not pass on to the offspring. There are exceptions and as those lines are worked with their will be dorsal stripes available.

[Strutter769]

Darn it! I misquoted again! Sorry Dave.

[beardeds4life]

Nice, Beards. I also just learned from rainbowsrus that dorsal striping is not proven, which I believe is the exact point you just made.

And with that, I am happy officially announce I have reserved an amazing orange baby male from rainbowsrus himself. Great deal and incredible parents (The snake I mean. Although I'm sure Dave's P's are pretty cool too.). He's from the Abby x Fred pairing. I'd post pics, but I didn't ask his permission. Oh, I didn't ask my wife's permission either. Shhhhhh......

hahahahahahaha I am happy foor you but you better get your wife on your side quick!

[Strutter769]

you better get your wife on your side quick!

I think I have a better chance of that happening with box in hand! I also think I'm gonna be in a bit of trouble. :suspicious:

[beardeds4life]

=) you could just "forget" to tell her

[Strutter769]

=) you could just "forget" to tell her

She is aware of my lack of memory, so that may work! :no:

[beardeds4life]

haha when is he coming?

[Strutter769]

haha when is he coming?

Probably when weather permits. Unfortunately, in Chicagoland, that means quite a while. I'll be sending payment this week.

[beardeds4life]

You live in Chicago? I love that city. I go there at least once a year.

[Strutter769]

You live in Chicago? I love that city. I go there at least once a year.

Nice! I'm 40mi. West of Downtown. When do you return?

[millertime89]

Nice! I'm 40mi. West of Downtown. When do you return?

you gonna go to Tinley in the fall? Some of us Nebraska people are thinking about driving up there together.

[Strutter769]

you gonna go to Tinley in the fall? Some of us Nebraska people are thinking about driving up there together.

Yessir! :bouncy:

[beardeds4life]

I go whenever I feel like it :)

[KORBIN5895]

You know what's crazy? They will ship Reptiles as long as it's -20°c here in Canada but they won't ship if it's under 40°f in the USA!

I lived dubia ST Charles for a couple of years and my cousins live in Wheaton still.

[Snakefood]

I lived in Bollingbrook Illinois for about a month!! Didn't really like it much, and came home again!! Just a BC girl at heart I guess!!

[beardeds4life]

You know what's crazy? They will ship Reptiles as long as it's -20°c here in Canada but they won't ship if it's under 40°f in the USA!

I lived dubia ST Charles for a couple of years and my cousins live in Wheaton still.

One of my realatives lives in Wheaton I just have no idea which one...

[Rainbowsrus]

You know what's crazy? They will ship Reptiles as long as it's -20°c here in Canada but they won't ship if it's under 40°f in the USA!

Guilty as charged, I'm one breeder that won't ship below 40. I know they can be shipped in lower temps relying on heat packs to keep them warm. Problem is, if anything goes wrong, the snake may not survive. And I've seen a LOT of shipments have problems, delays are not all that uncommon and although typically delivered second day I had one take four days to get there. I've also heard of heat packs failing, not lasting for as long as they are supposed to. In any of those cases with temps below freezing you're seriously risking the life of the reptile.

My babies arrive safe and sound, every time.

[KORBIN5895]

;) I understand your logic Dave. BUT I want my snake now!!!!!

[Strutter769]

One of my realatives lives in Wheaton I just have no idea which one...

Scott Smith's All Animal Expo is in Wheaton twice a month. The only reptile expo I know of in the area. Always a good time........ when you have $$$ to spend.

[KORBIN5895]

I never knew!

[Strutter769]

Another question to BRB breeders/enthusiasts...... and effort to make me feel better about choosing a High Orange/Bold Crescent male over a dorsal stripe male..

When looking at the collections of all the reputable breeders we all know and love, I see no animals with remake about dorsal patterns. Tons of choices in lateral markings, but both dorsal.

Let me guess, dorsal patterns are not "proven," correct? So, why would it be that the brother of the striped male in question apparently has insane dorsal striping? Doesn't that prove anything?

I'm still really trying to get a better grasp on the roles of genetics and what I can "expect" them to do.

Thanks everybody!

[millertime89]

I can't answer, but god I hope someone finds and proves a dorsal pattern morph, I would be first in line to buy that one. I love snakes with full dorsal stripes.

[Strutter769]

I agree. I think a dorsally-striped Pearl would be really cool. That was my goal until I learned this. Now I'm sure one of the pros will beat me to it! My secret is out! Dang it!

[Strutter769]

How about holdbacks? IMO it's really hard to tell by looking at a neonate, exactly what they will look like when they mature. How does one determine which/how many to hold back? I understand some are obvious, clean patterns, the side marking that you were trying for etc. What else makes a baby BRB stand out from the rest of the litter? I think it sounds like a silly question, "how do you know which to keep?" "Well, keep the animals you like the best!" I guess my poor is, most of the babies seem to look so similar, or is it just obvious when you see a holdback? Am I making any sense?

[Rainbowsrus]

I can't answer, but god I hope someone finds and proves a dorsal pattern morph, I would be first in line to buy that one. I love snakes with full dorsal stripes.


Well, not proven yet but Zoe:

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b237/rainbows-r-us/BRB/Female/Zoe/Zoe20070530pic09.jpg



And her Sibling Ziggy:

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b237/rainbows-r-us/BRB/Male/Ziggy/Ziggy20070601pic30.jpg


After a few years of growing up and bred together produced these:

Zadie:
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b237/rainbows-r-us/BRB/2011%20babies/Zoe%20x%20Ziggy/ZO_ZI_1105wb.jpg


Zachary:
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b237/rainbows-r-us/BRB/2011%20babies/Zoe%20x%20Ziggy/ZO_ZI_1106wb.jpg


Zsa Zsa:
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b237/rainbows-r-us/BRB/2011%20babies/Zoe%20x%20Ziggy/ZO_ZI_1107wb.jpg






They also produced in the same litter......




Zoltan:
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b237/rainbows-r-us/BRB/2011%20babies/Zoe%20x%20Ziggy/Zoltan_20111123wd.jpg


Zena:
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b237/rainbows-r-us/BRB/2011%20babies/Zoe%20x%20Ziggy/Zena_20111130wd.jpg


Zeus:
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b237/rainbows-r-us/BRB/2011%20babies/Zoe%20x%20Ziggy/Zeus_20111116wc.jpg

[Strutter769]

So then what's not "proven"? That looks pretty obvious, if you breed two dorsal stripes, you get dorsal stripes, right? I'm not understanding, and somewhat questioning my decision to go with high orange over a dorsal stripe male. I really want to produce a dorsally striped Pearl! So now im really confused.

[Strutter769]

Dave - Do any of your customers stay married long? How do people STOP buying your animals?! Each seems to be more impressive than the last!

[Rainbowsrus]

So then what's not "proven"? That looks pretty obvious, if you breed two dorsal stripes, you get dorsal stripes, right? I'm not understanding, and somewhat questioning my decision to go with high orange over a dorsal stripe male. I really want to produce a dorsally striped Pearl! So now im really confused.

What's not proven is the exact mode of inheritance. Is it recessive, is it co-dominant, is it polygenic or line bred? The key point being what do you have to do to make more. At this time I believe it's co-dominant, will need to raise up babies and do some breeding trials to work it out. First step will be this year, breeding the two original parents again to produce a second litter with similar outcomes.

[Strutter769]

What's not proven is the exact mode of inheritance. Is it recessive, is it co-dominant, is it polygenic or line bred? The key point being what do you have to do to make more. At this time I believe it's co-dominant, will need to raise up babies and do some breeding trials to work it out. First step will be this year, breeding the two original parents again to produce a second litter with similar outcomes.

Will any of that litter be available for sale?

[Rainbowsrus]

Will any of that litter be available for sale?

Plan for now is none for sale from either litter except may sell some non-visual males (have too many)

[Strutter769]

So, since the exact mode of inheritance is not yet known, it is possible that a non-visual male could in fact possess the trait and pass it along to offspring, is that a correct understanding? And if it's a recessive trait, would need to be bred to a female that also shares the recessive trait, regardless of whether the female has the dominant gene, if I'm not mistaken? (See? I've been doing some homework!)

[KORBIN5895]

Is Zues. A motley rainbow!?!?

[Rainbowsrus]

So, since the exact mode of inheritance is not yet known, it is possible that a non-visual male could in fact possess the trait and pass it along to offspring, is that a correct understanding? And if it's a recessive trait, would need to be bred to a female that also shares the recessive trait, regardless of whether the female has the dominant gene, if I'm not mistaken? (See? I've been doing some homework!)

Correct, Since the true mode of inheritance has not yet been proven, each and every baby in the litter, visual or not could carry the gene. The non-visual males I'm planning on eventually selling could be carriers of the trait.

mixing your modes in this statement....

And if it's a recessive trait, would need to be bred to a female that also shares the recessive trait, regardless of whether the female has the dominant gene


You started with recessive and then mentioned the female and dominant gene.

"And if it's a recessive trait, would need to be bred to a female that also shares the recessive trait" Is correct.

[Rainbowsrus]

Is Zues. A motley rainbow!?!?

I've named the trait "Candy Stripe" I believe it to be co-dominant with Zues, Zena and Zoltan being the "Super Candy Stripe" expression or Homozygous Candy Stripes.

[youngster]

Is Zues. A motley rainbow!?!?

That would be wicked cool!
I like motleys
The only problem is he thinks it's codom and motley is recessive

[Rainbowsrus]

That would be wicked cool!
I like motleys
The only problem is he thinks it's codom and motley is recessive


The problem with any trait is when crossing to another species the similar trait may not follow the same mode of inheritance.

For example, Hypo in BRB is recessive while in BCI it's dominant.

Motley in BCI is co-dominant

[youngster]

Ah, I knew that..... :p
It's all a matter of naming.
It would be nice if all the morph names were scientific, that way it wouldn't be so confusing!
But then again the names would get really long as you get into the triple and quad gene animals :p

[beardeds4life]

Personally based off pics it looks like a line bred trait to me...

[Strutter769]

Not sure how much you can tell the mods of inheritance visually, but again, I do have a lot of studying to do!

[beardeds4life]

Not sure how much you can tell the mods of inheritance visually, but again, I do have a lot of studying to do!

Im just saying that the way the animals improved the trait it looks line bred to me but I may be totally worng