Brazilian? Really?

[Strutter769]

According to Google it is!

[alessia55]

Woahha whay kind of snake is that???

[Strutter769]

Woahha whay kind of snake is that???

According to Google, it's a Rainbow Boa from Brazil. Not like any Brazilian I've ever seen though!

[marvelfreak]

Sure doesn't look like any BRB i ever seen. Looks more like a Columbine Rainbow.

[Caylan]

Could be an anery brazilian rainbow, would make sense at least. Looks more like an axanthic though. Cool rainbow none the less! ~Caylan.S.~

[youngster]

Remember to give credit when you take photos off an image search :)

[Strutter769]

Remember to give credit when you take photos off an image search :)

I mentioned Google as the source. It never took me to another site. I do want to give credit, wehere it is due.

[Rogue628]

Sure doesn't look like any BRB i ever seen. Looks more like a Columbine Rainbow.


Do columbian rainbows get that color as adults? I've only seen baby pics of them and their colors don't pop like that.

Very cool rainbow though!

[Strutter769]

I'm not sure. Maybe one our Rainbow guys will be by later to elaborate.

[marvelfreak]

Do columbian rainbows get that color as adults? I've only seen baby pics of them and their colors don't pop like that.

Very cool rainbow though!
I was think Columbia or Guyanan, but after a little research i believe it's a morph. Out of the 9 subspecies It kind of sounds like a Caatinga Rainbow. I just can find any pics. Here a link that gives a description. The Rainbow Boa.co.uk - Rainbow Boa Care Sheets including: Brazilian rainbow boa, Argentine rainbow boa, Columbian rainbow boa, paraguayan rainbow boa, central highland rainbow boa, (http://www.therainbowboa.co.uk/rainbow_boa_care_sheet.htm)

[youngster]

Another thought is it's possible it's photoshopped.
On boring days I take photos of snakes and photoshopping them to make them look cool :)
It's actually very easy after the first time if you have the right program(s)

[Strutter769]

Another thought is it's possible it's photoshopped.
On boring days I take photos of snakes and photoshopping them to make them look cool :)
It's actually very easy after the first time if you have the right program(s)

That's just cruel! Lol Here I am drooling over another handful of epicrates, only to now think the really amazing examples are altered pictures! Gee, thanks, Youngster!

Lol

Happy New Year

[millertime89]

looks like someone took the snake and turned it negative while keeping the rest normal. What did you search when you found that? I couldn't find it.

[Strutter769]

If I remember correctly, I searched for "Epicrates."

[youngster]

ADW: Epicrates2.jpg (http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/resources/laurie_vitt/Epicrates2.jpg/view.html)
Looks legit, says a doctor took the photo and something about copyright so I would think it's real actually.

[Strutter769]

ADW: Epicrates2.jpg (http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/resources/laurie_vitt/Epicrates2.jpg/view.html)
Looks legit, says a doctor took the photo and something about copyright so I would think it's real actually.

Nice detective work there, youngster!

[millertime89]

I'm Dr. Kyle Miller

See the similarity?
I'm not buying it guys, not based on one, poor quality picture.

[youngster]

University of Michigan Museum of Zoology site, good enough? :)

[Strutter769]

University of Michigan Museum of Zoology site, good enough? :)

I dunno, that Miller guy, he a tough one to.convince! :crazy2: Jk, Kyle!

[Snakesitter]

Keep in mind they recently redid the epicrates taxonomy, I think we're down to six rainbow subspecies now. That color scheme would be very unusual for a Brazilian. Still a cool image though, real or not.

[Strutter769]

Keep in mind they recently redid the epicrates taxonomy, I think we're down to six rainbow subspecies now. That color scheme would be very unusual for a Brazilian. Still a cool image though, real or not.

Cliff (or any of our Epicrates officianados) I read something about this change, but don't fully understand it. Can someone maybe explain why it was done and what exactly it means to have fewer subspecies? What does it mean for Epicrates in general and maybe for the hobby or breeding?

[CDN_Blood]

Having your picture taken in Brazil doesn't make you a Brazilian. The country of Brazil is *huge* and it borders several other countries so there are overlapping territories. Borders are a human thing, they don't apply to animals unless they're defined by geographic features which stop them from travelling elsewhere. Besides, that snake is much too robust to be mixed with a Brazilian - it's more along the lines of the maurus, crassus or assisi proportions.

I wouldn't say this is an intergrade or that the image has been altered. I'd say it's most likely a recognized subspecies of Epicrates, but which exactly is debatable. It's very difficult to find people who really know the currently defined subspecies.

My guess would be something along the lines of Epicrates cenchria polylepis (Central Highland Rainbow), but again, I'm just taking an educated guess and can't say for sure.

[KORBIN5895]

Happy 25th Todd!

[CDN_Blood]

Happy 25th Todd!
That's in July and I don't want to rush the reminder of how old I'm getting, but thanks Kevin :P

[KORBIN5895]

You need to change your signature then. Just saying.

[marvelfreak]

Cliff (or any of our Epicrates officianados) I read something about this change, but don't fully understand it. Can someone maybe explain why it was done and what exactly it means to have fewer subspecies? What does it mean for Epicrates in general and maybe for the hobby or breeding?
I do know they put Peruvian and Brazilians together as one. The why and what other one the combined i don't know.

[Strutter769]

I do know they put Peruvian and Brazilians together as one. The why and what other one the combined i don't know.

So Peruvians are now Cenchria Cenchria?

[millertime89]

So Peruvians are now Cenchria Cenchria?

I didn't know they ever weren't.

back to the original topic...
Epicrates cenchria alvarezi?
http://arachnophiliac.info/burrow/gallery/snakes/images/flank_rainbow_boa.jpg
from: http://arachnophiliac.info/burrow/gallery/snakes/index.htm

[Strutter769]

Wow. Beautiful! The dorsal markings almost look like a leopard phase, or is that only with c. cenchria?

[Snakesitter]

Cliff (or any of our Epicrates officianados) I read something about this change, but don't fully understand it. Can someone maybe explain why it was done and what exactly it means to have fewer subspecies? What does it mean for Epicrates in general and maybe for the hobby or breeding?

A few years back, scientists studied the differences between the old subspecies using a more modern set of techniques, and from these determined some of the subspecies were so similar they did not qualify as fully separate groups after all.

The study, which was authored by Paulo Passos and Ronaldo Fernandes in 2008, narrowed the existing epicrates cenchria complex from nine to five subspecies, as follows:

E. c. cenchria (“Brazilian”)
--(now includes) E. c. gaigei (“Peruvian”)
--(now includes) E. c. hygrophilus (“Espirito Santo”)

E. c. crassus (“Paraguayan”)
--(now includes) E. c. polylepis (“Central highland”)

E. c. maurus (“Colombian”)
--(now includes) E. c. barbouri (“Marajo Island”)

E. c. alvarezi (“Argentine”)

E. c. assisi (“Caatinga”)

For those interested in reading it, the paper is called “Revision of the Epicrates Cenchria Complex (Serpentes: Boidae),” and lays out their methodology fairly clearly...if slowly.

As for what it means....I view this, as with all matters of classification, as an unsettled issue. I would still avoid creating intergrades between any of the former subspecies, because for all we know someone else will reverse these findings in another few years. For example, Jeff Clark, an experienced US rainbow breeder, is maintaining his Peruvian snakes as a separate "locality" to preserve their look.

I hope this helps answer your question!

[Strutter769]

Wow! I have learned SOOO MUCH today! I recently inquired about a beautiful bright orange neonates of his. It is still available I believe on kingsnake, since I had to pass on it, thanks to post-holiday finances! Man I hated to give that guy up! He was the most pale peach color I had seen!! Grrrrr

Back in the market again hopefully in the spring. So, snakesitter, rainbowsrus, if ya see a nice pale high orange male pop up between now n then..... please let my name cross your mind!

[Strutter769]

And with that, I have hijacked my own thread!! Ha!

[millertime89]

And with that, I have hijacked my own thread!! Ha!

congratulations!

[Strutter769]

Not good. It's all about the snakes, man! The sSNAKESs!!!

[Rogue628]

A few years back, scientists studied the differences between the old subspecies using a more modern set of techniques, and from these determined some of the subspecies were so similar they did not qualify as fully separate groups after all.

The study, which was authored by Paulo Passos and Ronaldo Fernandes in 2008, narrowed the existing epicrates cenchria complex from nine to five subspecies, as follows:

E. c. cenchria (“Brazilian”)
--(now includes) E. c. gaigei (“Peruvian”)
--(now includes) E. c. hygrophilus (“Espirito Santo”)

E. c. crassus (“Paraguayan”)
--(now includes) E. c. polylepis (“Central highland”)

E. c. maurus (“Colombian”)
--(now includes) E. c. barbouri (“Marajo Island”)

E. c. alvarezi (“Argentine”)

E. c. assisi (“Caatinga”)

For those interested in reading it, the paper is called “Revision of the Epicrates Cenchria Complex (Serpentes: Boidae),” and lays out their methodology fairly clearly...if slowly.

As for what it means....I view this, as with all matters of classification, as an unsettled issue. I would still avoid creating intergrades between any of the former subspecies, because for all we know someone else will reverse these findings in another few years. For example, Jeff Clark, an experienced US rainbow breeder, is maintaining his Peruvian snakes as a separate "locality" to preserve their look.

I hope this helps answer your question!

Thanks for the info! I was curious as to why they did the revision. I purchased a Peruvian Rainbow from Jeff not too long ago. I will be purchasing a Brazilian sometime this summer (already have the parents picked out lol). I love the pattern of both and find it intriguing that they almost identical but they truly aren't. IF...and that's a huge IF....I ever decide to breed these two, I will do as Jeff is doing.

[Strutter769]

@Rogue ".... I will do as Jeff is doing." Can you elaborate a bit as to what this means?

[Rogue628]

He breeds both Brazilians and Peruvians. He doesn't mix breed them although their classification at this time would allow it without it being a mix or hybrid. He's actually one of the few (I've only seen one other but I imagine there's more) that breeds pure Peruvians. This is to keep their bloodline pure until if and/or when they classify them as separate again.

[Strutter769]

How is this perceived in the community? I'd be lying if I said the thought hasn't crossed my mind, but I'm afraid of the perception from the public, and therefore being stuck with a bunch of snakes I can't sell. Are there any pictures available anywhere of what this combination produces?

[Rogue628]

Not that I'm aware of. The animals look identical to the untrained eye. But the Peruvian has larger scales, therefore, a smaller scale count and their colors have a tendency to be more tense and the black part of their pattern, especially on their back, is thicker.

[Strutter769]

Would you buy a Brazuvian? A Perzilian :confused:

[Snakesitter]

IF...and that's a huge IF....I ever decide to breed these two, I will do as Jeff is doing.
I appreciate that, Rogue! Too many people interbreed and pollute the gene pool.

Strutter, I'd STRONGLY discourage creating intergrades. Even if *you* were honest about their genetic mix, future buyers of those babies might not be, and before very long, some of those babies would end up being resold as pure Brazilians or pure Peruvians...and bred as if they were. That means a whole slew of both species could become genetically "tainted" without the buyers being aware. Over time, the more this happens, the less we have any pure stock left at all.

I actually have one male currently I found out after purchase is an intergrade, and I plan to find him a home with a non-breeder, just to avoid this problem.

[Snakesitter]

Wow! I have learned SOOO MUCH today!
Glad to help. ;-)

So, snakesitter, rainbowsrus, if ya see a nice pale high orange male pop up between now n then..... please let my name cross your mind!I think you're already on the LGR wait list, no? ;-) Will keep an eye out though!

[Strutter769]

"Even if *you* were honest about their genetic mix, future buyers of those babies might not be, and before very long, some of those babies would end up being resold as pure Brazilians or pure Peruvians...and bred as if they were. That means a whole slew of both species could become genetically "tainted" without the buyers being aware. Over time, the more this happens, the less we have any pure stock left at all."

I've heard these points before and completely agree. I am really giving thought now to breeding only Epicrates. As many subspecies as possible. (All pure.) Is there a breeder that does more than two subspecies, or is exclusive to breeding Epicrates?

[Strutter769]

Glad to help. ;-)

I think you're already on the LGR wait list, no? ;-) Will keep an eye out though!

Yes sir, I am! Yes, if you could just keep my name in the back of your mind somewhere.... Maybe somehow associate "Roy" with "Orange!" Do any of these memory tactics work? :3eyes:

[Snakesitter]

LOL. I will make the connection. ;-)

Jeff Clark is the name that comes to mind for multiple rainbow species. No one I know covers all of epicrates.

[Strutter769]

I'm afraid the idea came too late. I'm already hooked on other breeds that have less "availability" that I plan to offer into the hobby at about the same time. Shhhhh....... :freakedout:

[millertime89]

Kyle, female, high red, please?

[Strutter769]

I am quite certain there will be high, high reds available first. I next plan to offer high orange., then possibly dabble with Bryan Hummel's outcrossing projects.sandcastle few surprises!

[Strutter769]

I am quite certain there will be high, high reds available first. I next plan to offer high orange., then possibly dabble with Bryan Hummel's outcrossing projects and a few surprises!

Darned auto-correct!

[Strutter769]

Kyle, female, high red, please?

Speaking of high red, when I had the girls out for photo the other day, I was amazed at how red Andi has gotten! From Dave Colling, her parents are both high red, Ann x Diablo (hence her name Andi). Anyway, just as I expected, her color is going to be amazing!

[Snakesitter]

I'm still waiting for the sandcastles. ;-)

[Strutter769]

Sand castles? Ok what'd I miss?

[Snakesitter]

I was just teasing you about the autocorrected post above. ;-) Darn autocorrect!!!