Help new dragon seems stressed

[ladyjustice33]

Okay, my new beardie is 81 grams. Got him on 12/10/11 from a reputable breeder. He was 77 grams. He is in a 30L aquarium for now. I wrapped that aquarium decor around the back and sides of the tank for now to give him some privacy. Substrate is indoor/outdoor green carpeting. Temps are staying at around 87 on the hot end with a basking spot of between 105 and 110 degrees and 77 to 78 degrees on the cool end. Night temps stay in the low to mid 70's. He has a rock cave on each end of the tank and gets on top and lays down to bask. He gets fresh greens/veggies every morning that I mist very well with water so he can lick the water off along with some repcal juvenile bearded dragon food that I soak in a mix of water and juice. I lightly dusk both with calcium powder. I keep fresh water in the tank at all times, spot clean daily, and mist him with water twice a day. In the evening about 3 hours before bed time, I put him in a tub with some dubia and let him eat all he wants till he stops eating. I give him a warm bath 2 times per week. Each day he seems less active, kinda laying around and under his cave and has the stress marks on his belly and beard. I've put him in a more quiet area of the house and have hung a little camo cover on the front of his tank now to try and make him even more secure. His lights are on a timer to go off at 8 pm and come on at 7 am. Tonight he wouldn't eat any of the dubia and he has ate every night. He shed the day after we got him and has pooped everyday and it looks normal. Anyone have any ideas or suggestions? I'm very open to constructive critism!!! I just want my little boy to be healthy and happy!!!

[alessia55]

I don't know anything about beardies so I can't help you but I really hope someone on here can point you in the right direction. I hope he starts eating again soon!! Hopefully it's nothing to be worried about :)

[youngster]

He could be getting ready to brumate.

[SpOoKy]

He could be getting ready to brumate.

Possible but is he still young? My be too young still to brumate, especially if the temps are kept at normal tems which they seem to be. Could be a little stressed out, sounds as though you handle him quite a bit. I would stop misting, beardies are a desert species who do not need humidity they need dry. Baths are okay but I would cut them down to once every 10 days or so, only if you don't see him drink. If you can see him drinking I wouldn't even worry about baths. Maybe to aid in a shed. Also I would be feeding him earlier in the day, not so close to lights out. This way it gives his body plenty of time to digest the roaches.

[lady_bug87]

I believe he may be too young to be getting ready for brumation and the stress marks on his belly could indicate digestion issues. That could also be why he isnt moving as much or eating.

Personally I would not use the repcal food every day beardies are VERY susceptible to Vitamin A Toxicity which can happen when they are over supplemented which is possible seeing as you are dusting everything every day and offering repcal. The symptoms are a swollen belly and throat but its very treatable (if thats what it is)

If he is having regular bowel movements keep offering the same amount of protein and veggies but take a break from the supplements for a while to see if he improves. Really you would be ok just dusting his protein and letting him eat as much as he can in 10 minutes twice a day. Baby beardies' diet usually consists of 80% protein and 20% veggies evening out as the animal matures. (not knowing how old the dragon is this is just what i have read/learned from experience)

If your dragon is constipated it can be cured by bathing in a mixture of warmed pedialyte and water and a 50/50 ratio

cutting down on the supplements until he gets them out of his system will NOT hurt him but please use your own discretion and if you find it necessary please consult a vet.

[lady_bug87]

Also be sure that you are offering the appropriate amount of UVB light in order for him to process and digest the calcium

Goodluck

[ZARADOZIA]

I would lower his basking temps to 95-105 and cool side to 75-85 during the day and 70-75 at night. The basking light needs to be either a mercury vapor or fluorescent tubes (remember to replace your fluorescent tubes every 6 months, even if the bulb is still working). "Full spectrum" light bulbs does not mean that it produces UVB. Beardies synthesize vitamin D3 when exposed to UVB, and D3 is necessary for calcium metabolization.

Make sure not to feed any lettuce of any kind, it can cause impaction and kill them. (It also has next to zero health/nutrition value)

If he hasn’t had a bowel movement since his last feeding of dubias, don’t offer any until he does. His body may not have finished digesting them yet. However, offer him lots of collard greens, mustard greens, papaya, squash & dandelion greens (whole plant is edible). They receive most of their water from plants; make sure they are chopped into small pieces so it’s easy to chew/swallow/digest.

I mist their veggies also to make sure they get their water intake and I do offer them water from a syringe, and they drink it up when they are thirsty. I do not mist their cage or them, just the veggies. Veggies are replaced daily.

Bathing is great and will do wonders for him. Mine get a good soak every 3-4 days; it’s one of the ways they rehydrate. Bath time is also great for watching his leg movement. One of the signs for impaction is limited-to-no movement of the hind legs. When dragons bath (at least mine) it’s like their legs have become a motor and they are all over the place. When he is bathing take special notice if he is energetic and moving all his legs; it will come in bursts and last about 15-30 seconds and then he will stop to rest for a few. Water temp should be 95-100 degrees and the water level should be right at his shoulder.

I would not use juice to soak his food. Juice is high in sugar and apple juice can cause constipation and/or diarrhea and dragons are susceptible to Vit A toxicity. Feeding should be limited to 10 minutes, all he can eat within 10 minutes and then make him stop. They can easily overeat and make themselves sick. Since the dubias are bigger than the general rule, You can always cut them in half (I don’t know how much bigger they are) to prevent him from becoming impacted. You may also feed him one at a time or limited the amount to about 10 in the morning and then 10 in early afternoon or so, depending on your schedule. He should not be fed dubias 2-3 hours before bedtime since their digestive system slows down at night and it can cause impaction/rotting. It is best to feed dubias in the morning so his body has all day to digest them. Dragons digest food in according to heat.

What do you mean by “stress marks” on his stomach? Is his stomach bloated or hard to palpation? If it is, I would wait before feeding him any more dubias, without more information though, I can only speculate.

Below I have included some very healthy foods you can feed him daily as main staples and some links to very good information. Veronica from Beautiful Dragon Rescue is a resource to behold and cherish. She is a lovely lady who has dedicated herself to the care and love of dragons.

A list of healthy foods you can feed daily:
Alfalfa (plant, not sprouts)
Cactus Pad/Leaf (raw)
Cactus Pear (Prickly Pear)
Collard Greens
Dandelion Greens
Endive
Escarole
Mustard Greens
Phoenix Worms
Silkworm
Squash, Acorn
Squash, Butternut (Winter)
Squash, Hubbard
Squash, Scallop
Squash, Spaghetti
Squash, Summer
Turnip Greens


Beautiful Dragons General Care (http://www.beautifuldragons.com/GeneralCare.html)
Beautiful Dragons Nutrition Content (http://www.beautifuldragons.com/Nutrition.html)
Bearded Dragon.org - Bearded Dragon Articles (http://www.beardeddragon.org/articles/)
Bearded Dragon.org - Brumation (http://www.beardeddragon.org/articles/brumation/)

[Valvaren]

First try not to feed him so close to bed time, the recommended time is to feed no less then two hours before lights out but I prefer to keep a good margin between feeding and lights out. The main way to feed dragons that have worked for most is veggies in the morning left in till dinner, bugs for dinner and supper. Switched when they reach the appropriate age.

Yes he is to young to brumate.

Also young dragons should be dusted with calcium 5 days a week one feeding a day and multivitamin 2 days a week one feeding a day, i'm not sure what it is you are dusting with but it could be possible you could be over supplementing him for sure. Also the beardie food is pretty much useless imo and I would never feed it to Thil, dubia and the appropriate veggies only.

I never kept standing water in my viv as it can raise humidity, he can easily get his water from veggies or baths and as long as his urate is normal colored you can over bath him. Thil would get baths everyday when she was younger and learned that bath time is poop time and to this day she has never messed in her enclosure and tells me when it is time to go. Her urate was always perfect, sometimes she would drink in her bath others she wouldn't, they know what they need.

The general rule for feeding is as much in 15, and if what you are feeding is smaller then the space between his eyes I can't see the dubia being the problem unless like mentioned above he is not getting enough digesting time.

I would lower the basking temp to 105 like stated he could be stressed do to the jump in temps and not being able to maintain a proper body temp for the right amount of time due to over heating.

Also I would recommend cutting back on the handling until this get sorted out, and no handling for two hours after eating so he can digest.

If you want you could definitely try what I told Eli when he starts feeling better so he will get used to you, might help him find time out less stressful and make the whole situation a bit easier on him. Just take him out after lights out when he is sleepy and watch TV with him or surf the net.

[ladyjustice33]

Thanks all!!! I lowered the temps some and am really just leaving him alone. He will not eat the dubia any longer in the seperate feeding tub. I put about 4 or 5 in there in his enclosure around 11 am and noticed about 3 pm that they were not in the tank so he ate them. Put about 4 or 5 more in his tank at 4 pm and will check before lights out to see if he ate them. He isn't really eating his greens either.....I usually put mustard greens and collard greens, yellow squash, bell pepper in his veggie dish every morning and mist with water. I make sure they are cut small enough for him. I never see him drink water even in the bath. I really only put the bearded dragon food in there because it is soaked in water and was hoping he would get some water that way. He has been basking most of the day, I only saw him in the cave once today. He is going to the bathroom regularly in his tank.....I wish it was during bathtime, lol. I guess for about he next week or so, I will just put dubia in his tank with him and check to make sure he eats them, keep offering greens and just leave him alone. Then after a week or so, start doing like Eli and take him out at night.

Also, what do you guys do with your beardies when you go on vacation? I feed my snakes before we leave and clean the tubs and give fresh water and my sister comes over once a week for me to check on them and my leos, my shepherd has an auto feeder and waterer in the back yard, my cocker spaniel always goes with us, and I give the Leos plenty of water and mealworms to last till we get back. Beardies need daily care!!! Guess I should have thought of that, but do you have someone come every day or just take them with you, lol ????

[Nismo89]

How big of roaches are you feeding him? You don't want to feed him anything wider then the space between his eyes and no longer then the length from tip of nose to middle of eyes otherwise the beardie could get impacted.

For what I do with my lizards when I go away since both need daily care I have one of my friends come over for a few weeks before I leave and start learning the daily routine of caring for them and to let the lizards get acclimated to the new person because my iguana is testy with new people and very picky with the way things are done. I also leave detailed step by step instructions and my phone number in case they have a question about anything.

[ladyjustice33]

Well weirdly enough, the breeder gave me advice that was not what I expected. Told him about my set up and he told me to take out the fluorescent UVB bulb. He said they are so bright they hurt the beardies eyes, said not to use the coil type either. He told me the only UVB he would recommend is a mercury vapor bulb that puts out UVA/UVB/and Heat. It can be used as the basking bulb. He went on to say that he doesn't put UVB in any of his enclosures and gives his dragons plenty of greens, calcium, and takes them outside on warm sunny days for natural UVB. He has been raising, breeding, and rescuing dragons for over 15 years and has never had a case of MBD. That goes against everything I have read, but then I talked to my friend James that had a bearded dragon for 16 years. He passed away a few years ago. He told me all he had in his beardie's cage was a standard light bulb and he took his beardie outside occasionally and fed him lots of veggies and dusted his food with calcum powder. In addition to taking out the fluorescent UVB bulb, he told me to take the hide out of the cool side of the tank and just leave the basking platform, he can get under it to sleep if he wants. Stop taking him out of his tank to feed dubia and instead put the dubia in a dish they can't get out of in his tank, put fresh veggies dusted with calcium daily in his tank, keep fresh water in his tank. Mist him (not the enclosure) once a day, and give him a warm bath twice a week. Keep his hot side at 85 to 88 degrees with a basking spot of 100-105 degrees ( no more than 110), cool side at 75-80 degrees. At night low 70's to high 60's is fine. All I can do is try it and see how it goes!!

[SpOoKy]

He went on to say that he doesn't put UVB in any of his enclosures and gives his dragons plenty of greens, calcium, and takes them outside on warm sunny days for natural UVB.

They are probably using Calcium with vit D.

[ladyjustice33]

He is, said he is using calcium with vitamin D. I took off the fluorescent UVB, but as soon as my enclosures are done within the next few weeks, I'm putting in a mercury vapor basking light. Not taking any chances. I have a female coming in next week, won her in one of Breeder's Circle's facebook auctions. She will also have her own custom enclosure with the same basking light! FYI......My little guys name is Buliwyf....pronounced Bull-Vi....long I. If you have ever seen the Thirteenth Warrior, you'll recongnize the name. Love that movie. Female is really bright whitish with pale orange, gonna call her Saphira....lol, not original, but got to have a female dragon named Saphira!

[beardeds4life]

what I do is I use the uv bulb every other day or every 2 days to still get d3 but not so much it kills her eyes and for the first 2 - 3 months after I got my beardei I could not handle her at all because she got stressed very easily.

[ZARADOZIA]

what I do is I use the uv bulb every other day or every 2 days to still get d3 but not so much it kills her eyes and for the first 2 - 3 months after I got my beardei I could not handle her at all because she got stressed very easily.


This is what I am going through with Nova right now. She does not like to be handled so I just talk with her when I feed them. I checked her every couple of hours and talk with her.

I found Mercury vapor bulbs on Amazon for 23.00. They are self ballast, by zoo med and the cheapest I have found yet.

[SpOoKy]

I took off the fluorescent UVB, but as soon as my enclosures are done within the next few weeks, I'm putting in a mercury vapor basking light. Not taking any chances.
what I do is I use the uv bulb every other day or every 2 days to still get d3 but not so much it kills her eyes and for the first 2 - 3 months after I got my beardei I could not handle her at all because she got stressed very easily.

If you follow the manufactures specifications when it comes to the appropriate distance to have the uvb bulb there is no reason to worry about hurting their eyes. This whole debate came about a few years ago when they first came out with the coil uvb bulb. They were causing eye problems but this has since been fixed. Some people still choose not to use the coil bulbs (myself included) but there is no issues with the florescent tubes.

The problem with not using uvb and relying on calcium with d3 is getting the appropriate amount to your beardie. It is possible to give too much d3, especially when in powder or dusting form. It is also possible to give to little. Personally I dust with calcium (no d3) on a regular basis and provide a 10.0 uvb florescent bulb that is on the duration of the day. Once a month i dust calcium with d3 just to be safe. UVB bulb cycles with the basking bulb. Be sure to change the bulb every six months even if it is still giving light the uvb coating in the bulb wears out.

[beardeds4life]

wow 23 bucks! I want the link to that! I love amazon to say the least lol. I looked on amazon for mercury vapor bulbs and have not found any. In my girls new cage I was planning on just using a 36 inch strip because the cheapest mercury vapor bulbs I have seen are $45

[ZARADOZIA]

wow 23 bucks! I want the link to that! I love amazon to say the least lol. I looked on amazon for mercury vapor bulbs and have not found any. In my girls new cage I was planning on just using a 36 inch strip because the cheapest mercury vapor bulbs I have seen are $45


Oops- it was Exo Terra, not Zoo med. Here's the link:

Amazon.com: Exo Terra Solar-Glo High Intensity Self-Ballasted Uv/Heat Mercury Vapor Lamp, 160-Watt: Pet Supplies (http://www.amazon.com/Solar-Glo-Intensity-Self-Ballasted-Mercury-160-Watt/dp/B00101JII8/ref=sr_1_1?s=pet-supplies&ie=UTF8&qid=1324810754&sr=1-1)

If that doesn't work for you, go to Amazon and run a search for:

Exo Terra Solar-Glo High Intensity Self-Ballasted Uv/Heat Mercury Vapor Lamp

[beardeds4life]

thank you so much! would it be ok to use that with a thermostat because it would constantly be turning on and off

[beardeds4life]

i might pay a few dollars more and get this 100 watt one what do you guys think of this one? You might have to copy and paste it


Amazon.com: Fluker's Sun Spot Self-Ballasted Mercury Vapor Flood Lamp, 100 Watt: Pet Supplies (http://www.amazon.com/Flukers-Self-Ballasted-Mercury-Vapor-Flood/dp/B0027J0QHO/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1324840556&sr=8-4)

[ZARADOZIA]

I am not big on using Fluker brand lights & heating. The company does not provide a website where you can research the specs of the item. Also, they do not provide technical research to educate their customers about proper use of the items. My personal favorite is Exo Terra because they do provide the technical data we need to provide optimum environments for our babies.

Example:


The Exo Terra Solar Glo Sun Simulating Lamp is the solution to one of the most important aspects of keeping reptiles and amphibians, providing the benefits of natural sunlight. The proper balance of ultraviolet light (including UVA and UVB), visual light and infrared light (heat) in one easy-to-install bulb makes the Exo Terra Solar Glo the choice of professional breeders. The Solar Glo is a full spectrum light with carefully tuned peaks to ensure appetite, activity, brilliant colours, and calcium absorption through Vitamin D3 production, and above all to prevent metabolic bone disease.


Optimal levels of UVB, UVA, visual light and heat in one bulb
Self-ballasted mercury vapour bulb
Provides the benefits of natural sunlight
Helps prevent metabolic bone disease
Increased UVB penetration distance (+30 cm) (11.8 inches)

The Exo Terra Solar Glo is available in two wattages, 125 W and 160 W. Exo Terra refrained from developing lower wattages as lower wattages simply do not generate enough heat for these self-ballasted bulbs to work properly, making them unstable and unreliable.
Exo Terra : Solar Glo / Sun Simulating Lamp (http://www.exo-terra.com/en/products/solar_glo.php)

I use probes for cool side and basking side to watch the temps. I have stands built so I can adjust the height, which adjusts the temp. It is not very technical but I have not found a better way yet. I am still learning. I do not know how the lamp would react or if it would work at peak performance being turned on and off. Maybe someone else will have more information to provide on this. What I do know is that they are not designed to be turned off an on a lot, but to be turned on for long periods of time.

I have both the 125watt and 160 watt. The 125 watt does not create enough heat for my dragons. I can get the basking spot to about 85F and 90 if the room is already 80F. I prefer the 160 because it provides excellent heat and perfect temps when it is 8 - 11 inches above the basking spot. You must monitor the temps when you plug it in and it takes about (for me) an hour to adjust the height so the temp is perfect. The 160 does get hot and you can easily hit temps of 114 if you are not monitoring. I set up before hand and give myself a full day to adjust the temps. *Remember, the longer a basking area is exposed to heat, the hotter it becomes because it retains heat, which is why I gave myself a full day of monitoring.

[kernel]

What size tanks do you have your beardies in, ZARADOZIA?

[beardeds4life]

i have a stand that i built on my current cage but in her new cage nothing will be able to be moved around because basking ledges will be screwed into the back wall so I am a bit worried but it will be approximately 8 inches away from the bulb but my house is fairly cold so it should be fine and in the wild they bask at temps up to 140! And there will be multiple ledges to bask on so if that one is to hot she will be able to go to a different basking site

[SpOoKy]

in the wild they bask at temps up to 140! And there will be multiple ledges to bask on so if that one is to hot she will be able to go to a different basking site

Where did you get this information from? Also you need to remember that ambient temperature and surface temperature are two different things.

[beardeds4life]

I got that from Allen Repashy when he was studying bearded dragons in the wilds of Australia. He took the temperature with a very accurate temp gun and the readout was 140 degrees!

[ZARADOZIA]

What size tanks do you have your beardies in, ZARADOZIA?

I have a few, one is 4x3x3, 3x3x2, 55 gal, 75 gal, 30 gal



I got that from Allen Repashy when he was studying bearded dragons in the wilds of Australia. He took the temperature with a very accurate temp gun and the readout was 140 degrees!

Just remember though that in the wild a dragon can dig in the dirt and cool himself. In a cage they can't. All I ask is that you monitor the temps because a basking spot temp of 140 will cook his brain, cause damage, and death. I probably don't have to tell you this, but I feel better saying it just in case. Just know that it is said out of a mutual love for our dragons and I want your beautiful baby to stay happy and healthy.

My Nova is a hypo Sandfire with blue bars on her back. I have the hardest time telling Sandfires from Citrus. They look the same to me. (I'm also partially colorblind)

[SpOoKy]

Just remember though that in the wild a dragon can dig in the dirt and cool himself. In a cage they can't. All I ask is that you monitor the temps because a basking spot temp of 140 will cook his brain, cause damage, and death. I probably don't have to tell you this, but I feel better saying it just in case. Just know that it is said out of a mutual love for our dragons and I want your beautiful baby to stay happy and healthy.

I second this...monitors are capable of basking a 140 plus temps but they are much different from bearded dragons. Also they bask at a surface temp of 140 degrees. As long as you have a basking surface temp of 105 ish for your beardie he/she will be fine with that. Too hot can also cause him/her NOT to bask and in turn will not be able to digest their food.

[beardeds4life]

I have a few, one is 4x3x3, 3x3x2, 55 gal, 75 gal, 30 gal





Just remember though that in the wild a dragon can dig in the dirt and cool himself. In a cage they can't. All I ask is that you monitor the temps because a basking spot temp of 140 will cook his brain, cause damage, and death. I probably don't have to tell you this, but I feel better saying it just in case. Just know that it is said out of a mutual love for our dragons and I want your beautiful baby to stay happy and healthy.

My Nova is a hypo Sandfire with blue bars on her back. I have the hardest time telling Sandfires from Citrus. They look the same to me. (I'm also partially colorblind)

Yes of course her basking spot would never get that hot. I dont want to cook her... To me high quality citrus dragons look very yellow where as a high quality sandfire looks very orange. Mine usually has violet/purple bars on her back but they didnt show up in the picture. :hmm: I $50 for her then a week later someone offered me $150 for her!