My wife's first snake, Sidney

[Norm66]

My wife at first was interested in sand boas, but when she got into researching them she changed her mind. I suggested she start looking into ball pythons and corn snakes since the one thing she's really not into is getting bit. :eek:

If I would have had to guess I would have thought a colorful corn morph would have been what she decided on but she fell in love with a friend our friend Shannon's smallest BP, Sidney (it fits our Pittsburgh sports theme as Sidney Crosby is the captain of the Penguins) in large part because Sid is a somewhat picky eater but has eaten twice for Becky already. After some discussions Shannon decided to give Sid to Becky since she has three BPs. I'm going to buy a couple bags of pinkies for Shannon at the next expo even though she was just glad to give Sid to Becky.

I'm really proud right now, we bought all the stuff for Sid's enclosure last night and Becky's spent the past hour or so getting it just right, it's almost done in fact. We'll spend a few hours making sure all is ready and we're going to pick Sid up around 4 or 5 this afternoon.

Here's a pic of the enclosure:
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-co9hoil7awE/TtKGJS-mgjI/AAAAAAAAAtQ/TcL1Aq8al6c/s640/001.JPG

It's currently sitting on a rubbermaid tub w/ styrofoam under it as a spacer until we get something built for the snakes. It's not pretty but it is functional. We're also going to paint the back and sides of the tank to make him feel a little more secure.

[snake man12]

Looks like a good setup. Oh by the way a bp can start on large fuzzies and hoppers not pinkies. Have fun with him

[Norm66]

Thanks. The pinkies are for Shannon's colubrids as a gift for giving Becky the snake, not for Sidney. Sid is eating rat pups (with hair, not pinks).

[snake man12]

Oh sorry I must have got a little confused

[Norm66]

Oh no problem. I'm usually confused. ;-)

[KORBIN5895]

Join the club! And that is a great friend.

[Rogue628]

Nice! And love the set up!

Confusion is my world. I constantly stay in it :P

[alessia55]

That's a great set up! Congrats to your wife on her first snake :) Can't wait to see pics!

[Norm66]

Thanks all. Sid came home last night, went into the cage, took a quick spin around and went into the cool side hide. This morning just his little head was sticking out and not wanting to disturb him I didn't try taking a pic.

Here's one from last night before we brought him home. He had just shed and had a few pieces hanging on so he also got a bath. He was very sweet and actually seemed to enjoy the warmish water.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-pOKpbbimEqM/TtLwqENjNPI/AAAAAAAAAu4/B1CnD0Wwofs/s400/Untitled

Becky is thrilled with the little guy and of coure whatever makes Becky happy makes me happy. :laugh:

[alessia55]

Aww I love it when they're that size! so cute! I'm glad your wife is happy with him! Ball pythons are such a joy to have :D

[Aaron_S]

I'm going to have to be the kill joy here as no one else seems willing to do it. That is not the "great set up" that everyone keeps saying it is. It looks fine but it's not really that functional. The reason he had stuck shed on him is because his humidity was too low where he was. With TWO bulbs on your enclosure and that small water dish you're going to suck out all the humidity. If you insist on using this enclosure the best I can do is inform you to cover most of your lid so as to keep as much humidity in as possible.

[Kiljosh]

I think that kind of depends on the humidity in the room as well but he is right.

The lights will dry the cage, as well as being not the best for balls apparently. I have read on here they get most of their body heat from their bellies, so having a light on them will work but it's not suited for them.

I use lights in my tank to lift ambient air temps and allow nighttime viewing but most on here recommend using an under tank heater, heat tape/wire, or a ceramic heat emitter to keep the tank humid enough.

If you search my posts you will see one about my Ball's eye getting a dent. Because of this I've had to start misting the tank almost everyday because my lights dry it out and its becoming a hassle so I'm currently rethinking my heating solution to incorporate an extra UTH for the hot side as well as reworking my heat wire.

[spots]

Becky is thrilled with the little guy and of coure whatever makes Becky happy makes me happy. :laugh:

Smart Man!! LOL :bouncy:

[Will0W783]

Adorable new snake! :)

[Lankyrob]

I think that kind of depends on the humidity in the room as well but he is right.

The lights will dry the cage, as well as being not the best for balls apparently. I have read on here they get most of their body heat from their bellies, so having a light on them will work but it's not suited for them.

I use lights in my tank to lift ambient air temps and allow nighttime viewing but most on here recommend using an under tank heater, heat tape/wire, or a ceramic heat emitter to keep the tank humid enough.

If you search my posts you will see one about my Ball's eye getting a dent. Because of this I've had to start misting the tank almost everyday because my lights dry it out and its becoming a hassle so I'm currently rethinking my heating solution to incorporate an extra UTH for the hot side as well as reworking my heat wire.


The bulbs heat the substrate and teh substrate heats the belly, not much different from usiing a UTH - in the wild the same thing happens, the sun heats the ground and teh snake absorbs teh heat from above AND below :):)

[Kiljosh]

Haha I guess your right man

[Norm66]

I understand that aquariums are not ideal homes for snakes but this is what we're able to use right now until I can design and build a permanent solution.

I didn't type all this before, but I guess I have to now...

There is a UTH on there and only one bulb burns at a time (though the pic does show both on there was no snake in it as we were testing to see what was necessary; it was over 100 deg F on the hot side with both) to keep the temp up (daytime white night red obviously). We're using suspenders and a belt because our house stays pretty chilly in the winter. Current situation is 80 and 90 deg F cool and hot sides respectively.

A little over half the top is covered (foil as a vapor barrier and a pillow case for a bit of insulation) and we're spraying water on the substrate to keep humidity up (monitored by a digital thermo/hygro-meter to keep it around 50% so far, his sheds will tell us whether we're too low or not.

I just went through all this with my carpet python enclosure a couple weeks ago (and really just got it right last week) so I was able to nail it down pretty quickly with this one. The biggest difference was that the shorter tank (20L vs. 20T) meant the bulbs heated the whole thing up a lot quicker.

So I think we've got all the main points taken care though I'm open to suggestions as to improvements.

[Gungirl]

I think you are doing good with what you have. As long as you keep an eye on temps and humidity you should be ok. I would cover 3 sides of the tank with something though to offer security to your new BP. I also tend to keep my humidity at 60% for my bp not 50%. I see a lot of people complaining about eye dents and what not due to low humidity so be careful with that one.

[Norm66]

Yes! That's the one thing I forgot to do. I have the stuff to paint 3 sides left over from painting the back of my 3 (fish) aquariums. I definitely want to do that for the snake cages.

60% huh? I think I might be confusing carpets and balls now. I can boost it up to 60% no problem. Thanks for that. :bouncy:

[millertime89]

I probably wouldn't paint it, just cover it with something.

[Lankyrob]

I keep my BP at 55-60 normal and 65-70 when in shed - perfect sheds every time. Sounds like you are doing everything right so far ;)

[Aaron_S]

If you want suggestions on how to improve I would just not use a fish cage. I did read you'll eventually get something better but why go through all this trouble to "make do" when maybe you can hold off bringing the snake home? Could the place you're getting it from hold off for a week until you get a permanent solution?

Also, how is that tank held up with styrofoam and a heatpad underneath? Is it just the corners held up?

[Norm66]

Never mind. Gotta love block lists.

[KORBIN5895]

Never mind. Gotta love block lists.

??????

@Aaron_s
Are you a happy person? I understand that you have several years experience with BPs but is of possible for you to say something nice? Or at least say it in a nicer way? You always seem grating and condescending. Not just in this thread but most other threads you have posted on lately have been pretty negative. Now it could just be me and if it is sorry.

[mattchibi]

I probably wouldn't paint it, just cover it with something.

X2 Cover it with black construction paper and double sided tape.

Another suggestion I have is after you cover those three sides, get some corrugated cardboard (or Im sure someone can tell you an even better insulator) and tape one layer to each of the three sides you've blacked out. Then tape a layer of newspaper on top to secure it. This will help keep temps a bit better in a glass tank. Good luck

[Norm66]

Oops, 'Ignore List' is what I meant. I was stuck in Facebook terminology but the effect is the same.

Last thing I'll say about the recent unpleasantness is that I don't mind being told I'm wrong but I do kind of insist on someone being at least somewhat diplomatic, if polite is just out of the question, about it.

Matt, I actually have some styrofoam insulation I was thinking about using but honestly right now with the temps pretty warm outside it's keeping the cool side down around 80 that I'm having trouble with. I've uncovered part of the top and removed the pillowcase from the top entirely and now have a nice 91-81 gradient from right to left. When the colder weather comes (soon most likely) that will likely change and I'll be insulating for sure.

Thanks for the input, I appreciate it. :freakedout:

[Aaron_S]

You people are ridiculous. I actually gave suggestions to help and I only asked more questions to help better the situation. They weren't rhetorical. I really wanted to know the answers! Apparently I'm not allowed to ask for further information.

[Jay]

You people are ridiculous. I actually gave suggestions to help and I only asked more questions to help better the situation. They weren't rhetorical. I really wanted to know the answers! Apparently I'm not allowed to ask for further information.
Aaron maybe try adding smiley faces to your posts

What did he say wrong:s he wasn't even
Blunt. I think they just hold a vendetta on you.

[Jay]

I would have to agree on the point he made about holding of untill you're able to take proper care, instead of sub standard, or with the logic "it's fine for now"

[Norm66]

It doesn't do any good ignoring someone if someone else quotes their post in my thread.

Jay, point out what is sub-standard about the care this snake is receiving. The snake's needs are being met. There is a proper thermal gradient, hides, humidity etc. It's not like I'm keeping the damn thing in a plastic grocery bag on the front porch and prodding it with a stick every time I walk by. The snake is fine. I'll say it again: the snake's needs are being met.

[Jay]

I understand that aquariums are not ideal homes for snakes

You answer your own question

[Norm66]

Geez....

Not ideal doesn't necessarily mean bad though now does it?

[millertime89]

You answer your own question
and yet millions of people make them work, myself and many other board members included. They're not ideal but with a bit of work they can be just as good as the $300 plastic vivs.

[Norm66]

Thanks Kyle. I can't figure out why these guys are jumping all over me when I just cruised through this site and found dozens of pictures of all kinds of snakes being kept in aquariums. Even the Stickied BP care sheet at the top of this forum mentions them as not being ideal, but commonly, successfully used. Maybe they're just mad we named the new guy after Sidney Crosby (a lot of hockey fans dislike him). ;^)

[Gungirl]

I think the tank is fine as long as you monitor and adjust as needed (which you are)

[lady_bug87]

and yet millions of people make them work, myself and many other board members included. They're not ideal but with a bit of work they can be just as good as the $300 plastic vivs.


especially when they're free!

my 1.1 Lacertas are in a 75 gal aquarium I have half of the top wrapped up with saran wrap and I give them a good misting in the morning

[KORBIN5895]

I'm keeping the damn thing in a plastic grocery bag on the front porch and prodding it with a stick every time I walk by.

I knew you looked like the type! ;)

That's just hilarious.

[Jay]

Thanks Kyle. I can't figure out why these guys are jumping all over me when I just cruised through this site and found dozens of pictures of all kinds of snakes being kept in aquariums. Even the Stickied BP care sheet at the top of this forum mentions them as not being ideal, but commonly, successfully used. Maybe they're just mad we named the new guy after Sidney Crosby (a lot of hockey fans dislike him). ;^)
You cought me, die hard caps fan

[alessia55]

I haven't been able to afford one of the nice pvc cages yet (though I"ll have some by May 2012!) so in the meantime I too have managed to deal with a glass aquarium (it even has a screen top) but I"ve adjusted it to work just as well as any other fancy pvc cage. By using saran wrap and all, I successfully keep the right temps and humidity without a problem. There are lots of us on this forum that use glass aquariums rather than pvc cages because of cost or availability. Norm, I think you're doing a fine job ;)

[Norm66]

You cought me, die hard caps fan


LOL. I was figuring Montreal but close enough. ;^)

[Norm66]

Thanks Alessia. :)

[KORBIN5895]

I am all for the blackhawks!!!!! And yes I am not a huge Crosby fan, unless of course you are talking about Crosby, Stills and Nash.

[blindfireak40]

and yet millions of people make them work, myself and many other board members included. They're not ideal but with a bit of work they can be just as good as the $300 plastic vivs.

Also as good as the $300 plastic vivs are the $8.95 plastic vivs to be had at Wal-Mart ;)

Something you may wanna consider, Norm, especially given that balls are terrestrial. They do sell tubs with locking lids; just drill a few air-holes and PRESTO!! Nearly pro-quality animal housing. :yes:

[youngster]

Also as good as the $300 plastic vivs are the $8.95 plastic vivs to be had at Wal-Mart ;)

Something you may wanna consider, Norm, especially given that balls are terrestrial. They do sell tubs with locking lids; just drill a few air-holes and PRESTO!! Nearly pro-quality animal housing. :yes:

Sean makes a good point.
Tubs can even work better than the PVC plastic types.
IMO they can be easier for the keeper and the herp.
But if you get a tub makes sure it's completely secure and the snake cannot get out :/

[Aaron_S]

Aside from all the off topic banter I'll just say I, and Jay, never said you had to spend $300 on a plastic viv. I got a boaphile for like $250, used that had four compartments, back lit and heat installed already from a friend a few years back. I never used it but it's possible to find like deals. As well as you can MAKE one from wood.

I personally think the fact you need to buy something and then fix it all up to make it work just isn't suitable. Might as well buy a cardboard box and attach wheels to it and consider it an usable car. No, I don't think having to play around with pillowcases and foil to cover the lid to achieve proper humidity is ideal in the least. I personally use tubs.

I would like to refer to LankyRob here on the forum and I hope he doesn't mind but he has great wood enclosures, I believe they are all wood, for ALL his herps. He may or may not have spent a fortune on them but as it stands you can find a more suitable middle ground. Melamine is not expensive in the least.

[Lankyrob]

I dont mind at all aaron, all mine are melamine, built by a local cabinet maker who happens to be the father of the guy who owns the reptile shop i use :) . They would be cheaper to make myself but i dont have the health or skills for that sort of work.

I can see both sides of this discussion, yes you can use aquariums for snakes and with a fair amount of adapting it can work, personally i prefer both the look and the ease of use of the wooden vivarium, would love to have all boaphiles but that just isnt financially viable :)

[mattchibi]

In terms of cost and effectiveness, IMO tubs are the way to go. Whether you have a rack or not, self-standing tubs can work really well. Temps and humidity are a breeze with tubs. And it wont cost you what a viv would. Cleaning is also made easier. To the OP, PM me if you want a tutorial for a cheap tub system that works fantasticly.

I think a lot of people start out using glass tanks and switch to something better.. at least thats the trend I've been seeing. Aaron is right in saying that glass tanks arent really viable and it is a bit of a waste of money to set it all up and then after a few months switch to something better, but as a beginner, what can you really do? It takes those first few months of "learning" about your snakes needs to be able to build a wooden viv or make an appropriate purchase for your BP.

[spots]

In terms of cost and effectiveness, IMO tubs are the way to go. Whether you have a rack or not, self-standing tubs can work really well. Temps and humidity are a breeze with tubs. And it wont cost you what a viv would. Cleaning is also made easier. To the OP, PM me if you want a tutorial for a cheap tub system that works fantasticly.

I think a lot of people start out using glass tanks and switch to something better.. at least thats the trend I've been seeing. Aaron is right in saying that glass tanks arent really viable and it is a bit of a waste of money to set it all up and then after a few months switch to something better, but as a beginner, what can you really do? It takes those first few months of "learning" about your snakes needs to be able to build a wooden viv or make an appropriate purchase for your BP.

Hey if you don't mind Pm me that tutorial for tub system that would be cool. Thanks

[millertime89]

I just made the switch to tubs, so much easier.
Matt, if you don't mind, could you PM that to me as well? I don't really need it I would just like to peruse it for any info that could be useful.

[Norm66]

The only problem I see with tubs besides making sure they're secure is that you can't see the animal inside them. These aren't in a reptile room, they're in my living room (very small house).

Matt, I would still like to see the tutorial you mentioned, go ahead and PM it to me when you have a chance. :)

[mattchibi]

The only problem I see with tubs besides making sure they're secure is that you can't see the animal inside them. These aren't in a reptile room, they're in my living room (very small house).

Matt, I would still like to see the tutorial you mentioned, go ahead and PM it to me when you have a chance. :)

You're right, glass tanks can work fine. Esp if you black out three sides. However, if your husbandry is suffering (not saying that it is, but IF) then you may want to look into changing your setup to a tub. The tub setup that I pm'd u guys only costs less than $100-150 depending on where you live and how available some things are. The way I see it is: ball pythons are not naturally good showcase animals, not in the slightest lol. Glass tanks facilitate the needs of HUMANS better than it does the needs of snakes. Just some brain food to think about :) That being said, I too am personally using a glass tank for one of my ball pythons. The husbandry is suffering and during shed times, I have to mist like a maniac. I still have a relatively happy snake but I think she will be much more happy when I have room to move her into my racks.

Cheers :)

[Lankyrob]

Whilst i prefer the look of plastic vivs, i also dont like tubs because a) they dont display as well imo and b)you cant see the animals inside so well.

Here is my display (also in my main living room)

http://i375.photobucket.com/albums/oo200/Lankyrob1975/Animals/Reptiles/Photo0180.jpg

[mattchibi]

Whilst i prefer the look of plastic vivs, i also dont like tubs because a) they dont display as well imo and b)you cant see the animals inside so well.

Here is my display (also in my main living room)

http://i375.photobucket.com/albums/oo200/Lankyrob1975/Animals/Reptiles/Photo0180.jpg

Wow. See if I had the time and money to shell out on a PROPER setup, it would look like this!!! Unfortunately since I will be breeding, money is kind of tight. And as long as husbandry is ok, I am content with my tubs/racks for now :)

Edit: btw, did you buy or make those, rob?

[Norm66]

Glass tanks facilitate the needs of HUMANS better than it does the needs of snakes.

Well, sure but in general aren't the whole idea of pets to please humans?

Thanks for the link Matt, I'll check it out this evening.

Rob, I love your setup. It's awesome. I'm envisioning something very similar to the stack three cages in the middle of the pic you posted.

[Lankyrob]

They were all bought - got good prices as the cabinet maker is the father of the guy who owns our reptile shop :)

[spots]

NICE set up Rob, that's same as I going for. The better part for me is I can build mine :)
What do you use for heat sources in your Viv's Rob?

[KORBIN5895]

Hey Rob, did I mention I am so jealous!

[Lankyrob]

Thanks for the compliments :)

I use Ceramic Heat Emitters in all the snake cages and Mercury Vapour Bulbs for the two lizards (heat and full spectrum UV in one bulb!)

[spots]

The bulb type of Ceramic Heat Emitters ?
LOL never mind I just answered my own question by looking closer to your picture. :wacky:

[Aaron_S]

Well, sure but in general aren't the whole idea of pets to please humans?...

Sure that may be a reason but it doesn't mean we need to skimp on their needs or best interest for our sake too. We chose them, they didn't choose us. Why should we cut their needs for our benefit?

[KORBIN5895]

Sure that may be a reason but it doesn't mean we need to skimp on their needs or best interest for our sake too. We chose them, they didn't choose us. Why should we cut their needs for our benefit?

Well said Aaron. I think too many of us tend to forget that important part. The only animal to choose me would be a very hungry snake or a slug.:

[pythons9991]

Ball pythons are shy secretive creatures and using bright basking lights on them can cause them undue stress and is a common cause of the snake going off feed. aquariums are also very hard to create the proper heat and humidity that balls require, your best bet would be a plastic enclosure with a hinged or sliding door on the front, flexwatt heat tape covering 1/3 of the enclosure heats this type of enclosure nicely without needing any kind of bulbs and the snakes feel very secure my ball pythons rarley miss a meal except when in shed and their sheds are always perfect.

[spots]

I have a BP and use a day light during the day and red light for night. I haven't had problems. My BP even eats during shed!! I have even seen him cruising around his viv during the day. (early morning or a hour or so before lights out)

IMO. I think using lights is fine considering in the wild there is a sun producing a bright light during the day. (just need to be sure to use a timer to give proper lighting times)
As for humidity it isn't very hard to hold proper levels in a aquarium if you use bark chips and cover part of the screen.

Again this is all IMO (there is so many ways to accomplish the same goal)

[jarich]

Ball pythons are shy secretive creatures and using bright basking lights on them can cause them undue stress and is a common cause of the snake going off feed. aquariums are also very hard to create the proper heat and humidity that balls require, your best bet would be a plastic enclosure with a hinged or sliding door on the front, flexwatt heat tape covering 1/3 of the enclosure heats this type of enclosure nicely without needing any kind of bulbs and the snakes feel very secure my ball pythons rarley miss a meal except when in shed and their sheds are always perfect.

Basically, all snakes are shy and secretive, but in my experience BPs as a species do not seem to be any more so than any other snake. Of course, individuals have their own "personality", but this seems to often be the result of how they were raised rather than any inherent trait of BPs. Ive had some that were very shy, and others that were the polar opposite.

As for your assertion that a light source often causes them to go off feeding, I'd be curious to see the information behind this. These animals live in the open grasslands and savannas of Africa, a very sunny place indeed. In fact, the easiest way to catch them in the wild is by "sun traps". While Im not comparing a heat lamp to the sun, it seems unlikely that the snake would stop feeding because of a bright light source. Unless, of course, there was no where for it to go to escape said light source. Then it would be a matter of not providing proper hides that caused the problem, however, and not the light.

Obviously when we talk about what is best between a tank or a tub, we are often talking about small differences. You can create a good environment in either one with enough care and attention. I think that my biggest concern with tub set ups is the ease with which they are ignored. Of course there are many people on the forum who take good care, whether it be tub or tank, but the number of pictures I see with a tub set up where there is just a water dish and paper towel is pretty incredible. If there is a glass enclosure it at least seems to motivate people to put some effort into creating an environment for the snake, with hides, plant decor, etc.

I think we need to get beyond the idea of our reptiles living and breeding as the indicator of health. We now know the conditions for those things to easily happen, whether it be tub, tank, closet, or cardboard box. Now lets take it a step further, how do we recreate as closely as possible their natural habitats? Its definitely not easy, and I know I dont do it all the time either. (God, my bearded dragon is a pooping machine and is really testing the limits of my set up for him) However, its something we should try to keep in mind when deciding to purchase or create an enclosure. There are some brilliant examples of great enclosures on this forum, and all of them are either custom built or are in glass set ups. I cant think of a single example of an amazing enclosure Ive seen in a tub because they are, rather, the example of a convenient enclosure. Its convenient for the keeper, that is, because they have so many snakes, or not enough floor space, or not enough time or whatever else is the reason. The thing about those reasons is that they are all about the keeper and not about the reptile.

Again this is just me thinking out loud, not trying to tell anyone that just because they have tubs there is something wrong.

[Aaron_S]

...Obviously when we talk about what is best between a tank or a tub, we are often talking about small differences. You can create a good environment in either one with enough care and attention. I think that my biggest concern with tub set ups is the ease with which they are ignored. Of course there are many people on the forum who take good care, whether it be tub or tank, but the number of pictures I see with a tub set up where there is just a water dish and paper towel is pretty incredible. If there is a glass enclosure it at least seems to motivate people to put some effort into creating an environment for the snake, with hides, plant decor, etc.

I think we need to get beyond the idea of our reptiles living and breeding as the indicator of health. We now know the conditions for those things to easily happen, whether it be tub, tank, closet, or cardboard box. Now lets take it a step further, how do we recreate as closely as possible their natural habitats? Its definitely not easy, and I know I dont do it all the time either. (God, my bearded dragon is a pooping machine and is really testing the limits of my set up for him) However, its something we should try to keep in mind when deciding to purchase or create an enclosure. There are some brilliant examples of great enclosures on this forum, and all of them are either custom built or are in glass set ups. I cant think of a single example of an amazing enclosure Ive seen in a tub because they are, rather, the example of a convenient enclosure. Its convenient for the keeper, that is, because they have so many snakes, or not enough floor space, or not enough time or whatever else is the reason. The thing about those reasons is that they are all about the keeper and not about the reptile.

Again this is just me thinking out loud, not trying to tell anyone that just because they have tubs there is something wrong.

I beg to differ on your thoughts here. You're trying to tell me that my choice of enclosure isn't good enough for my snakes. The reason I beg to differ has nothing to do with convenience for me. Ball pythons, and speaking entirely for ball pythons here, they do not require branches and trees and borrows to "play" on. All my animals needs are met within their tub. Ball pythons choose to live in termite mounds or smaller hides. My tubs recreate this atmosphere. A ball python honestly would not leave a burrow or a hollow tree branch on the ground if they had security and a food source. Abandoned termite mounds are secure, and a home for many other animals a ball python may eat. They'd only need to really leave for water.

I believe I have met their "natural" habitat.

[mykee]

BTW, Aaron knows his stuff, I would take his advice to heart. He's forgotten more in the last month about ball pythons than you've ever known.

[EasternGirl]

Wow...I thought garters were hard to care for....setting up a viv for a ball python is some complicated stuff. Where do you get the plastic enclosures? By the way...beautiful snake Norm.

[millertime89]

Wow...I thought garters were hard to care for....setting up a viv for a ball python is some complicated stuff. Where do you get the plastic enclosures? By the way...beautiful snake Norm.

Just about anywhere, they can range from as cheap as a tub from walmart to 600 dollar custom made PVC or ABS plastic enclosure. They're usually not that much for the smaller species though.

[EasternGirl]

Hmm...no one has ever said anything about glass being a problem for garters...why is it such a problem for pythons?

[jarich]

Ha! Thats a very succinct opinion, Mykee. Since we dont know each other at all, I'll assume that it comes from our mutual respect of Aaron's knowledge and is not a reflection on me at all.

First of all, let me say again that I am just thinking out loud here, and not saying that you are somehow not providing an enclosure that is good enough. I know you to be a very responsible and caring keeper, Aaron. Also, I think it should be stated that for any new keepers reading this thread, the most important thing is getting the proper environmental conditions met. What we are talking about are behavioural considerations that should ONLY be considered once you have a good environment created with all temps, humidity, feeding considerations, etc.

Okay, back to the discussion! I think the first thing to consider here is that it has become generally accepted knowledge in the scientific community that captive animals are understimulated. It is also fast becoming prevalent that we have greatly underestimated the development of reptile brains. As a result I think it is easy to extend the idea of understimulation to reptiles. Though there are not many studies, those done on lizards and snakes have shown that in barren captive environments these animals have long periods of remaining motionless in their waking hours. Even something as simple as spatial diversity within their enclosures yielded higher activity and reduced basking times.

As you mentioned Aaron, this does seem species specific, however I dont think this should mean it is not considered. Ball pythons in the wild seek out abandoned termite mounds, rodent burrows and hollowed out logs primarily for resting. However, I do not agree that they would only come out for water. They are frequently seen basking out in the open, even though they are crepuscular. These snakes are mostly an invasive species now. They follow humans as they clear land for agriculture, mostly because that means there are high populations of rodents, their main food source. What that means is that they frequent open spaces like fields and savannas in their waking hours.

I guess the point I am trying to get across is that I think we should start to look beyond the basics of husbandry. Once we have met all their basic needs, what more can be done to increase their quality of life? Stimulation via enrichment of their environment is a simple thing to do, and studies are increasingly showing that this has real effect.

[millertime89]

they can hit like freight trains. A 6 foot blood can hit as hard as a 10+ foot retic, check out some retic feeding vids to get an idea. It can be even worse on cage aggressive one or one in breeding mode.

[Aaron_S]

Jarich, I ask for any links where I might find these studies done? I would think their would be a lot more conversation in regards to this if this was to be true.

I would very much like to read these studies.

I'm going to stick with the species specific topic because to talk about all reptiles, or even just snakes or boids on a whole would be rather difficult to maintain a coherent discussion.

I don't necessarily believe that ball pythons require or need any sort of enrichment. I relate enrichment to other animals, with a known higher brain function such as primates. Who actually need it to survive as they'd go crazy without something to do. I don't believe this to to be the case with ball pythons.

I would agree that at the very least, I'd rather see a larger, more elaborate enclosure act as a stimulant than for someone to increase handling their pythons. I had a discussion with another member on the forums and they have even said that since they have become more hands-off due to the rest of their life that they find their snakes are doing better!

[red ink]

The secret to snake keeping (what ever the species)

Correct temps, adequate humidity, food and water, a secure hide (perches if arboreal) in an appropriate sized enclosure (whatever that is tub, room, plastic enclosure, glass, bird cage, outdoor pit)... not really rocket surgery.

The rest as enclosure enrichment or fancy vivariums/enclosures are for the keepers benefit not the snakes really as the bases are covered.

[lady_bug87]

quick off topic question

for those that use tubs/ rack system do you provide a photo period? and if so, how? and if not why not? I thought a photo period was necessary for BPs

[mykee]

I personally keep my ball pythons in transluscent bins in a rack and I have both a window and a simple ceiling light one a 12/12 cycle. Ball pythons, unike many other species, do not require a strict light cycle.

[jarich]

I couldnt really find any of the links that deal directly with the effects of cage dynamics online, unless you belong to the Wiley Online Library. There is an amazing book that has a few of them called The Health and Welfare of Captive Reptiles, which was edited by Warwick, Frye, and Murphy, and another called The UFAW Handbook on the Care and Management of Laboratory and Other Research Animals. Ill warn you though, they are both kind of ridiculously expensive unless you find a used copy.

As to Aaron's and Red Ink's comments about enclosure enrichment, they sound eerily close to what was said about chimps and other 'higher' animals about 50 years ago. Back then, nobody thought there was any reason to add enrichment to those animals cages either, because, hey, theyre just animals. After we got better at recognizing the signs of stress and anxiety in them though, we discovered that we do need to give them a rich environment for them to really thrive. Again, not to keep them alive, but to really make them thrive. And it only makes sense; if you put an animal from the wild into a barren plastic tub there is going to be some sort of detrimental effect on the brain. I think perhaps we are coming to that point in reptiles as well. Im not saying that a barren cage will make them crazy, just that a more enriched environment will lead to a healthier animal.

As to your comment about handling, Aaron, I am starting to agree, although this may indeed be a very species specific idea. Here are a couple articles I was reading the other day about it:

Effect of husbandry manipulations on respiratory rates in captive bearded dragons (Pogona vitticeps)
http://www.rogermeekherpetology.com/PDFs/49_Bearded%20Dragon%20thermo-respiration%20HND.pdf

Physiological and behavioural effects of handling and restraint in the ball Python (Python regius) and the blue tongued skink (Tiliqua scincoides)
Elsevier (http://www.journals.elsevierhealth.com/periodicals/applan/article/PII016815919390030S/abstract)

[red ink]

Jarich

There's a difference between communal higher functioning mammals and a sendentary ambush predator snake mate....

Take for example Liasis olivaceus borroni (pilbara olive pythons). There have been field studies on individual animals amongst the rock formations in the pilbara which have found the same animal living in the same crevace for upto 6 months without moving. They find periods of activities for a few weeks a year for mating and feeding, but always at a minimal range of the rock crevices itself. It gets hungry tags a rock wallaby goes to sleep for 4 months, wakes up feels a bit frisky looks for a mate for a few weeks; tags another rock wallaby goes back to sleep again till the next cycle. So anthropomorphicly itr can be said the that pilbara olive python's year consist of 4 days... the week its hungry as one, the few weeks it's frisky as another day, and the months in between at rest at a day each. How much environment enrichment do you think it would need in captivity given it's extreme sendentary lifestyle in it's natural environment.

By all means if people want to keep their snakes in grand enclosures do so...... but let's not slam the people that keep them in tubs either.

We feed our captive snakes on set interval with predetermined food sizes of our choice.... what happens if we feed it a prey item five times the size of it's "regular" prey item? Do you think it will stay active in it's grand enclosure or do you think it will retreat in it's hide for a few months while it digest and not use the "environment enrichment"?

[jarich]

My apologies, I was not in any way trying to slam anyone, Red Ink. I tried to mention in each of my posts that the first goal of any keeper is just to get to a point where the basic needs of the reptile are met, which can be done in tub or tank. Only beyond that was I trying to open up a theoretical discussion where we go past those basic needs and think about what would be the ideal situation for their habitat. So again, Im sorry if I made it seem like I was slamming you at all, that was not my intention.

As to your example, thats a pretty extreme one you chose! As you obviously know, the Pilbara comes from one of the most extreme environments on earth, with long droughts and sustained high temperatures. A difficult situation for any animal to live in. As a result, as Im sure you know, the Pilbara olive python aestivates to stay alive in those extremes periods, much like a bear. But when they are awake, there seem to be a number of studies done with radio transmitters that show these animals are pretty active. Some males will travel vast territories kilometers long to find a mate, and their favourite spot to lie in wait for prey is completely submerged in seasonal pools. So in answer to your question, yes I would think the ideal sort of habitat would be one that had both a rocky area with a couple hides and a large pool area for when they are out and hunting, rather than just a barren enclosure.

I should point out here again that I do think that these enriched environments can be created in both tub or tank. Ive seen some pretty amazing habitats for GTPs created in 45 gallon tubs, and Im sure we have all seen some awful set ups created in tanks. It just seems like with tubs its more about getting as many animals into as small an area as possible, rather than creating ideal habitats. And to me, that seems like the wrong direction to be going in.

[red ink]

Fair enough Jarich... now I understand where your comming from. It is quite interesting though to see if a definitive study has been done as to the habits of snakes in regards to movements in an environment where prey is easily accesible. There have also been accounts from people here of watching Morelias in roof eaves or buliding crevices stay in there for months. Prey was readily available from an ambush position within the "natural hide" itself and subsequently as a result the specimen would not leave it.

And yes I do agree "bare tubs" as in substrate, water bowl and hide are'nt my cup of tea either... a bit of decor or perch is'nt to difficult to add and would not go astray. I think whether tub or enclosure it's really the size of the space that matters. I have seen people get outraged at carpet in 3ft long tubs yet the same people don't have a problem if its a 3ft long wooden box :wacky:

[Aaron_S]

I think you are trying to slam the tub keepers based on the fact you're presuming I do it to stuff a ridiculous amount of animals into the space I have available which simply isn't the case.

I believe I create an ideal habitat as I have mentioned what I do and why. I chose tubs for my ball pythons, again species specific, as I felt it created everything for my animals to thrive. I've kept ball pythons in fish cages and even other snake species. I just don't believe it it's actually ideal. I have better results with my snakes in bins.

I will have to say we're going to have to agree to disagree here as I thought you had already read multiple studies on this topic but you haven't. I was looking forward to reading all these "studies" but you can't offer them up and I apologize but I am not buying any ridiculously expensive books at this time of year.

Lastly, primates are a vastly different animal when we talk about this discussion. Again, I'm talking species specific as I know there seemingly are higher functioning snakes out there. Mostly the apex predators.

[KORBIN5895]

Fish cages? ,;)

[spots]

Fish cages? ,;)

ROFL, I love it

[jarich]

I think you are trying to slam the tub keepers based on the fact you're presuming I do it to stuff a ridiculous amount of animals into the space I have available which simply isn't the case.

I believe I create an ideal habitat as I have mentioned what I do and why. I chose tubs for my ball pythons, again species specific, as I felt it created everything for my animals to thrive. I've kept ball pythons in fish cages and even other snake species. I just don't believe it it's actually ideal. I have better results with my snakes in bins.

I will have to say we're going to have to agree to disagree here as I thought you had already read multiple studies on this topic but you haven't. I was looking forward to reading all these "studies" but you can't offer them up and I apologize but I am not buying any ridiculously expensive books at this time of year.

Ha! ha! Ah, there is the Aaron Ive come to expect! :crazy: I was worried after your last post was so nice.

Just teasing you, man. Anyway, I thought I was pretty clear about my intentions a few hours ago. I was neither bashing you specifically or anyone else. I actually dont remember how many BPs you keep or if they are in racks or what, so Im not presuming about your habitats. For all I know you could have individual 80 gallon tubs for each one.

When we get right down to it, I suppose the actual cage structure isnt what we are talking about. Whether its plastic or glass, they essentially are just the 'house' we put the other things in. Both can easily be made to be a good or bad environment. I was talking about environmental enrichment, and the idea that it seems to be something people pay more attention to if they see it all the time (ie a glass tank). However, it does seem to be the case that we might have to agree to disagree. I just cant see how a barren tub could be considered ideal, but I dont think Ill be changing your mind on that.

Speaking of presumptions, why would you have the impression I didnt read the studies I mentioned? I wouldnt quote them if I didnt. I just said I couldnt find them anywhere online for you, thats all. I'll tell you what, if you ask real nice and promise to send them back, maybe Ill send them to you to read :D

[KORBIN5895]

I am officially requesting that the thread title be changed to something more appropriate. Like........ TUBS VS TANKS DEATH MATCH!

[Norm66]

I am officially requesting that the thread title be changed to something more appropriate. Like........ TUBS VS TANKS DEATH MATCH!


LOL. Too true. And to think all I was doing was sharing my wife and my excitement about our new little pet.

Actually my wife bought a little pastel guy from a Facebook auction last night and we're going to house him in a tub and will eventually go into a rack system I'm either going to buy or build. Not because I can't make a tank work but for ease of care and also room factor.

[KORBIN5895]

The dark side is calling Norm.

[jarich]

Hahaha! Too funny Norm.

Na, no death match here. I find these discussions quite fun, and I think (hope) Aaron does as well. Plus I suppose it's not so much about tub or tank anymore, but about whether or not to enrich the environment, whatever the container. Of course that doesn't roll off the tongue as easily, so what the heck...Death Match!

[Norm66]

I never did weigh in on the enriched enclosure thing....

I'd have to say I'm a lot more likely to make an interesting enclosure but honestly I do it for myself as much or more than the critter. I enjoy making cool looking enclosures and even though I'm planning on going to a rack system soon I think I'll probably still stick with larger than strictly necessary enclosures with more stuff in them than is strictly necessary. I enjoy it and if the snakes get any benefit from it then all the better.

[Aaron_S]

Jarich, I do enjoy these discussions and I really was looking forward to reading those studies. I prefer to be wrong, as I usually learn something then.

I also totally thought I was nice in that last post stating that we'd just have to agree to disagree!

Death match is catchier....

[mykee]

"I've kept ball pythons in fish cages and even other snake species"

LOL, everything old is new again.

[Aaron_S]

Mr. Genius Sir, I never said it was a good idea...

[jarich]

Jarich, I do enjoy these discussions and I really was looking forward to reading those studies. I prefer to be wrong, as I usually learn something then.

I also totally thought I was nice in that last post stating that we'd just have to agree to disagree!

Death match is catchier....

Good, I thought so but figured its always good to check from time to time. And I was just giving you a hard time man, no worries.

[Norm66]

I realized I never did post Sidney's story as I just found out a week or so ago. Becky knew and swears she told me but I don't remember. Must have been a hockey game on at the time. LOL

Anyway, Sidney had sat at the local pet store for a while with a bad shed and refused to eat. They tried live, mice, rats, everything to no avail. My friend Shannon happened to be there after one of the failed feedings and they wound up giving Sid to Shannon because they didn't want to sell him to an unsuspecting beginner since he was having problems.

Anyway, Shannon got him set up and struggled to get him eating. I don't think she ever got as far as assist feeding, but everything else. For the longest time he would only eat mice pinks even though he was too big for them he didn't like anything with hair. Fast forward a few months to when we started going over and my wife wound up getting him to eat a few times and then the first time he took a rat pup was from Becky too. That's how she got attached and how we wound up bringing the little guy home.

I have to say now that he's a voracious eater aiming to make up for lost time. I fed him the rat pup I defrosted for my JCP (who refused...again) last night and when I went back to check on him he was in the ambush position with his head out of his cool-side hide. So I defrosted a rat fuzzy and tried that with him. He hesitated for about 3 seconds but went after it and ate it nicely. After that he crawled into the warm side hide and we haven't seen him since. :)

[millertime89]

good deal Norm, that's a shame about your JCP though.

[Norm66]

For a guy who wouldn't eat Sid seems bound and determined to make up for lost time. This is how he greets me every time I open his tub now. Actually by the time I got the camera on he'd retreated a bit as he realized it wasn't feeding time (just ate two days ago BTW). Talk about a strong feeder...

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-AAK5MzZQYD4/Tv4SUBNNm1I/AAAAAAAAA2w/BnkMNgHhC_Q/s512/029.JPG

Note how he crapped on his house. I'd just cleaned that up (a bit) and he still thought it was feeding time.

[millertime89]

not poo, urates. You'll know poo when you see/smell it. My BP left me one heck of a present last night.

[Rogue628]

not poo, urates. You'll know poo when you see/smell it. My BP left me one heck of a present last night.

You should have seen the present one of my dumerils had for me when I got off work. Fresh shed covered in poo...and she was laying on top of it :O_o: I have no idea why. She has plenty of room elsewhere to lay. Guess all the work of shedding and poo'ing left her pooped and she didn't want to move! :wacky: :yes:

[lady_bug87]

not poo, urates. You'll know poo when you see/smell it. My BP left me one heck of a present last night.

hah my BP poops as big as my 15lb yorkie

[Norm66]

Yea, I know it's urates. But solid and comes from the rear means poop to me. ;^)

[Swany]

how often can I expect my royal to deficate/urinate ?
Iv'e had her for a week, she's had one feed, but i've had nothing from the other end lol

[Maclyal]

with most of my ball pythons, you put it in one end on Monday & by the next weekend at the latest it's coming out the other end.:laugh:

[Lankyrob]

My BP has a movement around every 3 or 4 feeds - it does look like a great dane has broken into his viv and taken a dump sometimes :no:

[Swany]

My BP has a movement around every 3 or 4 feeds - it does look like a great dane has broken into his viv and taken a dump sometimes :no:

Well thats something to look forward to :-p

[spots]

My BP is the same as yours Rob. It's kinda frighting sometimes what comes out :wacky: So about every 2 -3 weeks