Cat food for dubia

[Lankyrob]

Someone mentioned recently about feeding dubia with high protein kitten food to "gut load" them before feeding ti lizards.

Just wondering if this is wet tinned food or dry crunchy food? Also if it is dry food do you crush it or justfeed it as is?

Cheers

rob

[Freebody]

read the labels, their is wet cat food that is terrible just like the dry. and whole will work, in a jam i have given mine dog food for a night or whatnot till i can grab something from a store. and thanks Rob, i never thought of high protien catfood tho, but now that you mention it, i will have to grab some. i know dog food is pretty bad food, but its good enouph for a dog. Isnt their somthing put in cat food to help cats eyes? a vitamin/mineral/some additive i dont know. but cats cant go with out it or they will go blind is all i know, err well led to believe lol i wonder if this would effect the sav? i will have to do some reading.

[Gungirl]

My only Guess would be to make sure it has no red dye in it. The red dye in most pet foods is HORRIBLE!

Other wise I don't see why it would be an issue

[stephanbakir]

Someone mentioned recently about feeding dubia with high protein kitten food to "gut load" them before feeding ti lizards.

Just wondering if this is wet tinned food or dry crunchy food? Also if it is dry food do you crush it or justfeed it as is?

Cheers

rob
If you use DRY food, make sure to include water crystals.

[Lankyrob]

Will the roaches demolsh dry food or should i crush it to a powder? And yeah they have water crystals in there constantly.

[infernalis]

I put together some powdered dry milk, instant mash potato powder, crushed dry cat/dog food & just a tad of pure cane sugar and mixed it all up.

It seems to disappear when I put some in the roach tote.

[stephanbakir]

Roaches will demolish it, no need to powder.
If you feed wet food (I feed my roaches fruit) you don't need to give them water.
Pics of my setup (they are in a bin, in the snake rack) Each bin like this is half the size of a 2221 bin, and holds about 1000 roaches. (2 layers thick egg carton sheets)

To avoid mold I took a small plastic container for sandwiches and cut it so the top edge is about half an inch high, I sanded it with rough sand paper so they can climb the walls (babies too) and I put their food in there. Every other day I change the food out to avoid mold, since I feed them a fresh fruit diet I never need to give them water.

[Lankyrob]

Thanks for all the replies guys.

[stephanbakir]

Anytime buddy :) If you guys hear of a good place to get water crystals (dry) give me a shout... the home and garden I used to get it at used to sell 1lb of powder for 8$, now you get a few grams for 15$

[Gungirl]

Question.. couldn't you use damp paper towel instead of water crystals? As long as you changed them out every other day or so...

[stephanbakir]

Technically you can, but if it molds even a little it could ravage your colony. Roaches are incredibly hardy animals but mold is their Achilles heel... Well... Mold, lizards, scorpions, fish, tarantulas and birds :P

[Lankyrob]

Well i bought the highest protein cat kibble that i could, dropped a handful in when i got home and the went CRAAAAAAAAZZZZZZYYYYYYYYY!!! It was like a shark feeding frenzy, the were running around and getting into the food so much that i could hear them from the next room!!

[dshin963]

Anytime buddy :) If you guys hear of a good place to get water crystals (dry) give me a shout... the home and garden I used to get it at used to sell 1lb of powder for 8$, now you get a few grams for 15$

Mr.Herp sells a 1 pound bag of crystals for 12 dollars if that helps :S

[infernalis]

Technically you can, but if it molds even a little it could ravage your colony. Roaches are incredibly hardy animals but mold is their Achilles heel... Well... Mold, lizards, scorpions, fish, tarantulas and birds :P


I can attest to that, one piece of moldy fruit wiped out 90% of my colony overnight.

I had to buy several hundred assorted nymphs & another dozen males to get back on track.

Oddly, the big shiny breeder mommas were the ones that survived the mold spores.

[stephanbakir]

Mr.Herp sells a 1 pound bag of crystals for 12 dollars if that helps :S
How is shipping?

[Freebody]

I just ordered 5 pound, total shipping is $17, 5 day shipping. its $9 if you want just 1 pound which is really bad. I will post and say how everything works out, they take paypal as well. thanks for the link, i have been getting it locally for way way more like, you said stephan.

[stephanbakir]

Thanks for the info, I'll look into it!

[Freebody]

all i have been getting is a couple little 1.5 oz packs for $6 each....... jumped in my seat when i read the link lol

[Freebody]

Ok everyone , my 5 pounds of polymer crystals arrived yesterday. everything went well, I even got a hand writen thank you for my purchace on my shipping invoice :) i will buy from him again when i need more that is for sure :)

[stephanbakir]

Thanks for the update

[jarich]

Im just a new roach breeder, so Im genuinely asking out of curiosity. Perhaps Im not aware of various breeding problems with roaches yet. Im just wondering why the desire to feed dog food or cat food? If what you feed them goes pretty much into your reptiles then the question is, would you feed your reptile dog food or cat food? Or any other processed foods for that matter. My thinking was, if I can I should try to keep it as natural as possible. Ive been feeding them oats (which are super cheap if you buy in bulk, less than a dollar a pound), raisins, and then whatever vegetables happen to be on sale (for the last couple weeks its been green beans). I also cant think of any need for a high protein diet for them. I cant remember any examples I have ever read of any entomophagic reptile having a lack of protein as a nutritional issue. Is there a reason you went with the high protein stuff?

[Lankyrob]

Because of my disability i forget things a lot, if i put fruit/veg in the roaches enclosure it will go mouldy before i remember to change it out. The dried cat food can stay in there indefinitely without mould - in an ideal world they would have fresh food every day.

[jarich]

Ah, gotcha, totally understand, context is everything.

[stephanbakir]

Im just a new roach breeder, so Im genuinely asking out of curiosity. Perhaps Im not aware of various breeding problems with roaches yet. Im just wondering why the desire to feed dog food or cat food? If what you feed them goes pretty much into your reptiles then the question is, would you feed your reptile dog food or cat food? Or any other processed foods for that matter. My thinking was, if I can I should try to keep it as natural as possible. Ive been feeding them oats (which are super cheap if you buy in bulk, less than a dollar a pound), raisins, and then whatever vegetables happen to be on sale (for the last couple weeks its been green beans). I also cant think of any need for a high protein diet for them. I cant remember any examples I have ever read of any entomophagic reptile having a lack of protein as a nutritional issue. Is there a reason you went with the high protein stuff?
I have a layer of dog food at the base of my enclosure, sometimes I get busy and don't have time to feed them but my pets who eat them still need to eat, and that way they are always gut loaded.
That being said, when I do make time, they get fresh fruit and believe me you know it when you leave it in there too long lol. The smell punches you in the face, or you breath in a fruit fly.

[Freebody]

I have a layer of dog food at the base of my enclosure, sometimes I get busy and don't have time to feed them but my pets who eat them still need to eat, and that way they are always gut loaded.
That being said, when I do make time, they get fresh fruit and believe me you know it when you leave it in there too long lol. The smell punches you in the face, or you breath in a fruit fly.
lol wet roach poop and rotten fruit is somthing to experience, the horror!! :p

[Snakefood]

here in Canada the cat foods with the highest protien that I am aware of is Origen. It is an all life stage food and if my memory serves me it ranges from 50% and higher. 2 formulas, chicken or fish.

[stephanbakir]

Having worked for the company, Blue Buffalo Wilderness is the highest in Canada, expensive as hell though lol, 25 or 26% protein.

[Lankyrob]

Even the cheapest cat food here has 30% protein, the one i bought is for undernourished kittens and has 52% protein.

[jarich]

Even the cheapest cat food here has 30% protein, the one i bought is for undernourished kittens and has 52% protein.

Its actually pretty similar over here. Sorry Stephan but you have to check those numbers out again. Here is the one that Snakefood mentioned:

Orijen (http://orijen.ca/products/cat_kitten/analysis)

Even the cheap stuff like Purina has 34%:

Complete Formula Cat Food: Purina® Cat Chow® (http://www.catchow.com/Products/Complete-Formula)

[stephanbakir]

Wait, I might be thinking dog food, gime a sec.

[stephanbakir]

Wow, its its 40%, the average must have gone up since I finished working there, I remember we were above average on everything

[jarich]

Working at a dog/cat food plant must have been a pretty smelly experience! I used to deliver to a rendering plant when I was working for Coke. Yikes! I couldnt believe people could work in that smell

[stephanbakir]

I worked in sales, at a pet store. (workin 3 jobs at the time, lol)

[jarich]

Ah, I see! Sorry, my mistake. I thought you worked at the food company itself.

[stephanbakir]

I worked specifically for Blue, but out of a pet shop.

[candyraver69]

Im just a new roach breeder, so Im genuinely asking out of curiosity. Perhaps Im not aware of various breeding problems with roaches yet. Im just wondering why the desire to feed dog food or cat food? If what you feed them goes pretty much into your reptiles then the question is, would you feed your reptile dog food or cat food? Or any other processed foods for that matter. My thinking was, if I can I should try to keep it as natural as possible. Ive been feeding them oats (which are super cheap if you buy in bulk, less than a dollar a pound), raisins, and then whatever vegetables happen to be on sale (for the last couple weeks its been green beans). I also cant think of any need for a high protein diet for them. I cant remember any examples I have ever read of any entomophagic reptile having a lack of protein as a nutritional issue. Is there a reason you went with the high protein stuff?

Because what you feed them goes in to your reptile is precisely why you want high protein (and high calcium for lizards). Don't think of it as a protein deficiency issue as much as, how many roaches does your reptile need to eat to get the right amount of protein and what else is going to come along with that (fat, exoskeleton, etc). You could feed the roaches tofu and steak I suppose if you wanted to be more natural, but cat food works well.

I know I suggested cat food in one dubia thread for gutloading for tarantulas. For lizards you certainly want to add some form of calcium additionally to the cat food, or dust the roaches right before feeding. You can also put jurasical in the water you mix up your water crystals instead to add calcium.

[Lankyrob]

We dust with calcipm before feeding ours

[Freebody]

I dust mine with phosphorus-free calcium with vit d3. same with the snails he eats which is the other 50% of his diet.

[jarich]

Because what you feed them goes in to your reptile is precisely why you want high protein (and high calcium for lizards). Don't think of it as a protein deficiency issue as much as, how many roaches does your reptile need to eat to get the right amount of protein and what else is going to come along with that (fat, exoskeleton, etc). You could feed the roaches tofu and steak I suppose if you wanted to be more natural, but cat food works well.

I know I suggested cat food in one dubia thread for gutloading for tarantulas. For lizards you certainly want to add some form of calcium additionally to the cat food, or dust the roaches right before feeding. You can also put jurasical in the water you mix up your water crystals instead to add calcium.

I suppose that was my worry, so let's go over this in greater detail.

First, my mentioning of protein deficiency was for a point. There is no need to ever worry about the protein intake of your reptile if it is eating any kind of animal, whether invertebrate or vertebrate. Both sources will provide an excess of protein, and your reptile will expel that excess in its waste. This is especially true of invertebrate prey.

Second, increasing the protein in the diet of the roaches will not increase the protein make up of the roach. They too will expel the added protein from their bodies after breaking down the protein into the amino acids they need. But, you are probably now thinking that the advantage comes from the gutloading of cat food in their stomachs. However, gutloading is for vitamins and minerals, NOT for proteins. Which brings us to the next point.

Third, cat and dog food are bad for your reptiles. We all know not to feed our reptiles cat or dog food directly, and with good reason. It's comparable to feeding your children fast food. If we know these are not good to give the reptile directly, then how is gutloading with them good? They are filled with lots of pretty nasty and unhealthy things, as well as lots of preservatives. BHA and BHT are common, as is one very important preservative for this thread, ethoxyquin. I mention that one specifically because it is also commonly used as a pesticide. Roaches have specifically evolved organs to deal with toxins, so while it may not effect them, gutloading for your reptile may likely effect kidney and liver function over time.

I understand that maybe these are small things that aren't going to immediately strike your reptile dead. However, its definitely not a good thing, and if possible, I think should not be common practice. It's also easy to line tubs with oats or other dried grains, or even flour. They're actually cheaper, have plenty of protein, and of course are much more natural. I think for animals, just like people, the least processed, most natural food you can give them is always the best bet.

[stephanbakir]

I suppose that was my worry, so let's go over this in greater detail.

First, my mentioning of protein deficiency was for a point. There is no need to ever worry about the protein intake of your reptile if it is eating any kind of animal, whether invertebrate or vertebrate. Both sources will provide an excess of protein, and your reptile will expel that excess in its waste. This is especially true of invertebrate prey.

Second, increasing the protein in the diet of the roaches will not increase the protein make up of the roach. They too will expel the added protein from their bodies after breaking down the protein into the amino acids they need. But, you are probably now thinking that the advantage comes from the gutloading of cat food in their stomachs. However, gutloading is for vitamins and minerals, NOT for proteins. Which brings us to the next point.

Third, cat and dog food are bad for your reptiles. We all know not to feed our reptiles cat or dog food directly, and with good reason. It's comparable to feeding your children fast food. If we know these are not good to give the reptile directly, then how is gutloading with them good? They are filled with lots of pretty nasty and unhealthy things, as well as lots of preservatives. BHA and BHT are common, as is one very important preservative for this thread, ethoxyquin. I mention that one specifically because it is also commonly used as a pesticide. Roaches have specifically evolved organs to deal with toxins, so while it may not effect them, gutloading for your reptile may likely effect kidney and liver function over time.

I understand that maybe these are small things that aren't going to immediately strike your reptile dead. However, its definitely not a good thing, and if possible, I think should not be common practice. It's also easy to line tubs with oats or other dried grains, or even flour. They're actually cheaper, have plenty of protein, and of course are much more natural. I think for animals, just like people, the least processed, most natural food you can give them is always the best bet.

Really interesting read. May I ask how the giant glucoseamine argument works with reptiles and muscle density/elasticity?

[jarich]

I'm not sure I understand the question. Are you asking if the high chitin amount, and therefore high levels of glutamine, allow for a more elastic muscle composition?

[stephanbakir]

Feeding them wheat, how are herps effected by glucosamine?

[jarich]

I think you might mean gluten? Wheat contains no glucosamine. Glucosamine is created by synthesizing glucose and the amino acid glutamine. Its a building block for cartilage, tendons, ligaments, nails, shells, etc. For instance, chitin (bug exoskeletons) is a type of glucosamine. You can get glucosamine from wheat, but only by fermenting it.

[stephanbakir]

Wait, brain fart. Your right.
I meant gluten, that thing they bred into wheat to make it more elastic once processed that most people can't process yet (heard something about this on a talk)

[jarich]

First, I suppose I should mention for any new keepers reading this (I know you know better Stephan) that I am not condoning throwing a bunch of bleached white flour into the roach enclosure. Im talking about whole wheat, minimally processed flour as a part of a mix of grains which should mostly be made up of oats in my opinion.

As for your question about gluten, we can all pretty much digest it. People with Celiac's disease actually have what amounts to an allergic reaction to it, but they can still digest it too. The increase in the amount of people with the disease, and other less extreme reactions like it, could be one of a few things. First, that we are eating much more processed wheat in our diets now than before. Second, that we are getting much better at diagnosing this as a problem. Third, our processing of the wheat actually increases its gluten content by a ridiculous amount. That bleached out white flour most people use has been specifically formulated to have as much gluten as possible because it makes baking easier.

However, to specifically answer your question, the amino acids that make up gluten have indeed increased somewhat in the last 100 years, but its not a huge increase and probably not responsible for the increase in reactions we are seeing. Also, it depends what type of wheat you are talking about. There are certain types that have a higher amount of gluten than others, like red spring wheat for instance. Once again, its mostly to do with the crap we do to food after we harvest it though.

For the purpose of this thread, I cant imagine it making any difference to the monitor. Again the roaches will digest the gluten into amino acids and excrete any excess, so no need to worry about its effect on your lizard.

[stephanbakir]

Thanks a ton Jarich.

[candyraver69]

I suppose that was my worry, so let's go over this in greater detail.

First, my mentioning of protein deficiency was for a point. There is no need to ever worry about the protein intake of your reptile if it is eating any kind of animal, whether invertebrate or vertebrate. Both sources will provide an excess of protein, and your reptile will expel that excess in its waste. This is especially true of invertebrate prey.

Second, increasing the protein in the diet of the roaches will not increase the protein make up of the roach. They too will expel the added protein from their bodies after breaking down the protein into the amino acids they need. But, you are probably now thinking that the advantage comes from the gutloading of cat food in their stomachs. However, gutloading is for vitamins and minerals, NOT for proteins. Which brings us to the next point.

Third, cat and dog food are bad for your reptiles. We all know not to feed our reptiles cat or dog food directly, and with good reason. It's comparable to feeding your children fast food. If we know these are not good to give the reptile directly, then how is gutloading with them good? They are filled with lots of pretty nasty and unhealthy things, as well as lots of preservatives. BHA and BHT are common, as is one very important preservative for this thread, ethoxyquin. I mention that one specifically because it is also commonly used as a pesticide. Roaches have specifically evolved organs to deal with toxins, so while it may not effect them, gutloading for your reptile may likely effect kidney and liver function over time.

I understand that maybe these are small things that aren't going to immediately strike your reptile dead. However, its definitely not a good thing, and if possible, I think should not be common practice. It's also easy to line tubs with oats or other dried grains, or even flour. They're actually cheaper, have plenty of protein, and of course are much more natural. I think for animals, just like people, the least processed, most natural food you can give them is always the best bet.

Great information. I didn't stop to think about the preservatives. About the protein though, I am going to respectfully disagree. There is a fantastic manual view-able online for free that discusses nutrition in detail, but still there is room for debate as you must consider the difference between 2 roaches with normal diets vs a gutload roach with enough protein in its gut to equal the same protein content. What would the group of two roaches provide that the single roach didn't? Everything that wasn't in the gut would be doubled. So that is what must be considered. What I am talking about isn't increasing protein intake, because to get more protein the animal can just eat more, but increasing the efficiency of getting that protein. Merck Veterinary Manual (http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/toc_171400.htm)

So I guess depending what your take on the protein situation is, you might want to consider finding a cat food with less or certain preservatives? Not to say it makes it right because one person does it so everybody should, but think about what kind of diet rodents you feed your snakes have. I can guarantee there are preservatives in most rodent's diets that you feed your snakes. Not many feeder breeders feed their rats/mice anything besides lab blocks, let alone a completely fresh diet.

Certainly if you don't feed cat/dog food you need to feed a balanced fresh diet to your roaches. If you always feed them lettuce or always feed the oranges... the nutrition content is going to plummet. Cat food is convenient because it provides a mix of things in one item. If you are going to do the more natural approach you will need to plan the roaches diet like you would for an iguana, carefully selecting a variety of foods that together contain the needed vitamins, minerals, proteins, etc.

[jarich]

I see where your logic is coming from Candyraver, but it doesnt really work for the specific example. That reference you quoted actually says it outright. If you look in the section marked 'Nutritional Requirements' it states, "Excess protein is common in the diet of carnivorous lizards...Feeding high protein cat foods has been implicated in cases of excess protein and vitamin D3" It goes on to state that the only common type of protein deficiency is in herbivorous reptiles due to the "salad diets" that so many keepers give them.

Remember, when it comes to protein, there will never be a deficiency if your animal is eating a carnivorous diet. A roach with out any gutloading is still around 50% protein! Its not even about efficiency, as there is so much protein in roaches that lizards will excrete the excess. The more common problem is too much protein. Taking all that extra protein out of the body is hard on the organs. The other thing to consider is that when it comes to reptiles, you dont want to more efficiently give them extra calories (which is also what that extra protein is). The problem with captive animals is normally that they are too fat, so giving them more protein is not a great idea in my opinion.

As to their diet, yes I do plan the roaches diet like all my other animals (actually more now that I think about it!) I have them on a very natural and balanced diet. I feed them green beans, kale, carrots, dried apricots, and raisins, and for dry food I feed them oats and barley. You are absolutely right about the rodents, I know that most breeders dont feed them very high quality stuff. Thats the biggest reason I have been contemplating breeding rats again. Im hoping to do so by the start of the year.

I think you hit the nail on the head in your last paragraph when you said, "catfood is convenient". It is at that, and like I said before, I dont think that feeding your roaches cat or dog food is by any means going to kill your lizard. However, I also dont think that its the best or most nutritional diet though, and like all things relating to our animals, I think that what is best and most nutritious should be the goal.

[candyraver69]

I see where your logic is coming from Candyraver, but it doesnt really work for the specific example. That reference you quoted actually says it outright. If you look in the section marked 'Nutritional Requirements' it states, "Excess protein is common in the diet of carnivorous lizards...Feeding high protein cat foods has been implicated in cases of excess protein and vitamin D3"



There is a HUGE difference between feeding the prey item cat food and feeding your reptile cat food directly. Read the text, especially surrounding that quote, and you will see it was clearly talking about people feeding their reptiles cat food. I would hope that everyone in this thread knows not to feed their lizards cat food. Anyways, other than that, I think we've both made our respective points.

[candyraver69]

And I feel it's important to point out also to those not reading the link I sent the part you omitted from the quote because out of context that is a bit different. Here is the whole paragraph to clarify:

"Excess protein is common in the diet of carnivorous lizards when excessive meat products are fed rather than whole animals. Feeding excessive amounts of high-protein cat foods has been implicated in cases of excess protein and vitamin D3. Many nutritionists recommend not feeding cat foods to reptiles. Dog food, especially low-fat varieties, can be used sparingly as part of a complete and balanced diet in both carnivores and omnivores. The overuse of high-protein diets prepared for carnivores has been incriminated in causing disease in tortoises and iguanas."

*note that iguanas and tortoises are vegetarian, so what dummy is feeding them carnivore food I don't know, but it causes problems (surprising, I know)

[jarich]

Ha! I originally left all those parts in, but then took some of them out for effect. So good on you for calling me on it! Its not a great technique and I apologize. But back to the discussion.

We agree on something, and its a good first step. You stated that you know that it is not good to feed a reptile cat food directly. However, you then go on to say that there is a huge difference between feeding it to prey animals and feeding it directly. My question is, what information do you have to back that up? First lets look at what we were talking about specifically - gutloading. By its very definition this is the act of feeding a prey item a certain food and then feeding that prey item to a reptile before it has the chance to digest what is in its gut. So in the case of gutloading with cat food, there would be, in fact, almost no difference between feeding it to the prey item or feeding it directly. Undigested cat food is still just cat food. Second, if you are aware that cat food is a bad food item for reptiles then what would make you want to use it for the prey that they directly eat? Even when digested, the same things that are wrong with cat food will be passed along via the prey item. When it comes to bugs, the old saying "You are what you eat" is really pretty true. Third, what is the motivation for feeding them cat food or defending that position? Again its kind of like the rodent/invertebrate argument with monitors. Sure you could feed them that, no it wont kill them. But why, if you know there are better, more natural things to feed them? Especially when there are so many better items available for just as cheap a price, that can be fed to them. The only answer, once again, is convenience to the keeper. And that becomes a thin argument very quickly. Responsibility overrides convenience every time as a keeper.

I think we all agree that its good to do the once over in all our reptile enclosures each day, taking out any excrement, debris, etc from their environment. If convenience is the only argument, then again, why not just add your roach enclosure to this daily ritual? It only takes a few minutes more, and if the advantage is a healthier reptile then Im not sure if there is much reason for the debate.

[stephanbakir]

God this topic went from great to 6 different flavours of awesome.

[candyraver69]

Ha! I originally left all those parts in, but then took some of them out for effect. So good on you for calling me on it! Its not a great technique and I apologize. But back to the discussion.

We agree on something, and its a good first step. You stated that you know that it is not good to feed a reptile cat food directly. However, you then go on to say that there is a huge difference between feeding it to prey animals and feeding it directly. My question is, what information do you have to back that up? First lets look at what we were talking about specifically - gutloading. By its very definition this is the act of feeding a prey item a certain food and then feeding that prey item to a reptile before it has the chance to digest what is in its gut. So in the case of gutloading with cat food, there would be, in fact, almost no difference between feeding it to the prey item or feeding it directly. Undigested cat food is still just cat food. Second, if you are aware that cat food is a bad food item for reptiles then what would make you want to use it for the prey that they directly eat? Even when digested, the same things that are wrong with cat food will be passed along via the prey item. When it comes to bugs, the old saying "You are what you eat" is really pretty true. Third, what is the motivation for feeding them cat food or defending that position? Again its kind of like the rodent/invertebrate argument with monitors. Sure you could feed them that, no it wont kill them. But why, if you know there are better, more natural things to feed them? Especially when there are so many better items available for just as cheap a price, that can be fed to them. The only answer, once again, is convenience to the keeper. And that becomes a thin argument very quickly. Responsibility overrides convenience every time as a keeper.

I think we all agree that its good to do the once over in all our reptile enclosures each day, taking out any excrement, debris, etc from their environment. If convenience is the only argument, then again, why not just add your roach enclosure to this daily ritual? It only takes a few minutes more, and if the advantage is a healthier reptile then Im not sure if there is much reason for the debate.

The difference between gutloading and feeding cat food directly to your reptile is that just the gut is full of the cat food, and you are still getting the nutritional content of the rest of the prey animal. It's the difference between having a pizza with pineapples on top and just eating a pineapple. Good enough analogy? Sure the reptile is getting some catfood, but in a package deal. I don't think cat food is "bad" for reptiles, just in pure form not balanced as eating the prey item... although as we agreed, some preservatives in some brands very much could be bad. With your third argument, I'm not arguing that feeding your roach a balanced diet would be the ideal situation, but at what cost? You have to weigh the benefit against the cost. And again, just feeding the roaches fresh food will nilly is NOT a balanced diet, and I think would be sub-par to cat food.

After all, is it healthier for a person to eat a nasty prepared frozen dinner with a variety of food groups like a TV dinner with veggies, meat, cheese, and grains, or just eat fresh apples all day? Neither is the best solution, the prepared food isn't perfect, but it's pretty balanced, where if you only ate apples, even though they are fresh food items, it's not got everything you need. Come on now... surely there are people here that know a vegetarian/vegan human can be nutritionally sound if they really carefully plan their diet to include everything they need, but the vast majority are depriving themselves of needed nutrients? Same concept applies here. If you are willing to really throw down the time to plan a balanced diet for your roaches, by all means do it! It's just far more complex and time consuming than your average person is going to want to deal with. Otherwise we would all be breeding our own rats fed on a fresh diet (no lab blocks at all, just FRESH food) for snakes rather than buying them from a breeder like rodentpro.

[KORBIN5895]

I am trying to think of just one vegan I have ever seen that looked healthy and I am drawing a blank .....

[millertime89]

I know a few. It takes dedication though.

[KORBIN5895]

But do they look healthy? I have known several but they never looked good.

[candyraver69]

I am trying to think of just one vegan I have ever seen that looked healthy and I am drawing a blank .....

HAHAHA they are out there but certainly not the majority. Brad Pitt? Alicia Silverstone? Neither of them look like the slightest gust of wind would blow them away. Jered Leto... *whistles*

[ZARADOZIA]

But do they look healthy? I have known several but they never looked good.

Alessia is and she's cute as a button!

[KORBIN5895]

Wait! I said vegan not vegetarians! What are they? There is a difference. The vegetarians I know tend to look healthy but I remember going to a Borders bookstore when a bunch of vegans were there handing out the meat is murder pamphlet. One chick came over and gave me a pamphlet and asked me if I knew the evils of raising "meat animals". I looked her dead in the eye and said I totally agreed with her and that's why i hunted and killed my own food. She looked like she was gonna puke

[stephanbakir]

Wait! I said vegan not vegetarians! What are they? There is a difference. The vegetarians I know tend to look healthy but I remember going to a Borders bookstore when a bunch of vegans were there handing out the meat is murder pamphlet. One chick came over and gave me a pamphlet and asked me if I knew the evils of raising "meat animals". I looked her dead in the eye and said I totally agreed with her and that's why i hunted and killed my own food. She looked like she was gonna puke
Rofl, I've pulled that one a few times and it never ended well.

[millertime89]

But do they look healthy? I have known several but they never looked good.

sorry, thought that was implied by my post, yes I do. I work with one and she's probably the healthiest person I've ever met.

[candyraver69]

Wait! I said vegan not vegetarians! What are they? There is a difference. The vegetarians I know tend to look healthy but I remember going to a Borders bookstore when a bunch of vegans were there handing out the meat is murder pamphlet. One chick came over and gave me a pamphlet and asked me if I knew the evils of raising "meat animals". I looked her dead in the eye and said I totally agreed with her and that's why i hunted and killed my own food. She looked like she was gonna puke

I bet the look on her face was priceless. ROFL

[jarich]

The difference between gutloading and feeding cat food directly to your reptile is that just the gut is full of the cat food, and you are still getting the nutritional content of the rest of the prey animal. It's the difference between having a pizza with pineapples on top and just eating a pineapple. Good enough analogy? Sure the reptile is getting some catfood, but in a package deal. I don't think cat food is "bad" for reptiles, just in pure form not balanced as eating the prey item... although as we agreed, some preservatives in some brands very much could be bad. With your third argument, I'm not arguing that feeding your roach a balanced diet would be the ideal situation, but at what cost? You have to weigh the benefit against the cost. And again, just feeding the roaches fresh food will nilly is NOT a balanced diet, and I think would be sub-par to cat food.

After all, is it healthier for a person to eat a nasty prepared frozen dinner with a variety of food groups like a TV dinner with veggies, meat, cheese, and grains, or just eat fresh apples all day? Neither is the best solution, the prepared food isn't perfect, but it's pretty balanced, where if you only ate apples, even though they are fresh food items, it's not got everything you need. Come on now... surely there are people here that know a vegetarian/vegan human can be nutritionally sound if they really carefully plan their diet to include everything they need, but the vast majority are depriving themselves of needed nutrients? Same concept applies here. If you are willing to really throw down the time to plan a balanced diet for your roaches, by all means do it! It's just far more complex and time consuming than your average person is going to want to deal with. Otherwise we would all be breeding our own rats fed on a fresh diet (no lab blocks at all, just FRESH food) for snakes rather than buying them from a breeder like rodentpro.

Your analogy works well about the pizza, because its exactly my point. Pizza isnt healthy! Will it kill you? No. But is it healthy? Again, no not really (unless, like Congress, you believe pizza sauce is a vegetable :D ). As to your idea about vegetarians, most of the vegetarians I know are actually much more healthy than I am. The reason is because they pay much more attention to what they eat. So again, thank you for bringing up that point. Will a 'willy nilly' fresh diet improve them? Of course not, but that was never what we were discussing here. Our roaches will be healthier too if we pay more time and attention to what they eat, and therefore they will be healthier food items for our reptiles. Wouldnt it be better to improve the diet of our feeder items so much that we never needed to dust or supplement again? I think its possible.

As to your point about costs, we arent talking a huge difference. Each week I spend about $12 on food in total for around 1000 roaches (today I spent $3 for green beans, $2 for bananas, $1.50 raisins, $3 for kale, $1 for squash and I estimate the amount of cost from their dried food bags to be about $1.50). Now that is here in New York City, where everything is expensive, so Im sure it might even be cheaper for others. I know that feeding them just a bunch of dried cat food is cheaper, maybe only $3 a week or so (Im just guessing here). But if a few bucks a week is too much to improve your animals life, then perhaps we are having the wrong discussion.

[candyraver69]

As to your point about costs, we arent talking a huge difference. Each week I spend about $12 on food in total for around 1000 roaches (today I spent $3 for green beans, $2 for bananas, $1.50 raisins, $3 for kale, $1 for squash and I estimate the amount of cost from their dried food bags to be about $1.50). Now that is here in New York City, where everything is expensive, so Im sure it might even be cheaper for others. I know that feeding them just a bunch of dried cat food is cheaper, maybe only $3 a week or so (Im just guessing here). But if a few bucks a week is too much to improve your animals life, then perhaps we are having the wrong discussion.

When I used the term "costs" I wasn't referring to money at all. I was talking about the time you would take planning the diet, chopping fresh food up each day, etc. The roaches eat so little it's negligent really the dollar amount of the veggies unless you have a TON. Time is money though!

[jarich]

Im not sure that there is much to it really. No chopping required at all, so its just washing the veggies and sticking them in. Literally takes about two minutes. And since I shop for them at the same time I shop for me, the planning phase isnt much more. Its really pretty simple!

[stephanbakir]

I feed my dubia colony and it costs me roughly 0$ :P got an apple tree out back, and I feed them whatever we don't eat, and anything that falls on the ground gets frozen for them over winter.