Teasing a BP with food..kinda

[jaleely]

So, Jasper, our adopted 10 year old male BP had three rats last week. He's decided he's still hungry! More food is actually arriving tomorrow...we got him a nice frozen rabbit, and a few guinea pigs to try! And more rats, for him and everyone. BUT in the meantime, I think he thinks we're starving him. He's been roaming around each night, and a couple of nights hissing randomly *lol*

Well, the other night Chocobo, our cockatiel decided to hop over and see what the fuss was about. She apparently did not realize a huge snake was in that tank. She watched, and watched, and Jasper crept closer, and closer....He never did strike (I actually made her move before he could try and hurt himself) but she just sat there watching him...finally realizing he was there, and then just continued to sit there...but with her wings out and threatening him! Poor Jasper....after we moved Chocobo, he looked around and around...he missed his meal. The bird is such a tease!

[shaunyboy]

its the start of breeding season,this may be the reason for his behavoir,rather than being hungry

love the picture of the bird in threat mode

cheers shaun

[Jenn_06]

a rabbit for a BP? or do you mean a rabbit pinky? a small rabbit is about the size of a XXXL rat and most bp just get feed large rats when they are adults and most breeders i know dont give there bp anything bigger then a med rat.

[candyraver69]

Gotta love how males act during breeding season. Seeing an adult corn snake trying to figure out the right angle to get out of 1/4" ventilation holes for hours to get at a female... LOLZ. I haven't seen that behavior in a while but it sure is something to behold. I don't know whether to feel sorry for them having to be patient for pairing or die laughing.

[shaunyboy]

Gotta love how males act during breeding season. Seeing an adult corn snake trying to figure out the right angle to get out of 1/4" ventilation holes for hours to get at a female... LOLZ. I haven't seen that behavior in a while but it sure is something to behold. I don't know whether to feel sorry for them having to be patient for pairing or die laughing.

^^^^^
that pretty much covers every species on the planet,when a male knows theres a hot female up for it in the vicinity pal :yes::yes::yes:


cheers shaun

[lady_bug87]

Haha ^^^ true

[Gungirl]

I would suggest to not feed your BP Rabbits or Guinea pigs. They don't need 3 rats a week or more either. If you feed him anything other than rats are you prepared with him to get hooked on Guinea pigs and not want rats any more? Just because your Bp is out and active doesn't mean he wants/needs more food.

[alessia55]

Those pics are really funny! :p Not sure I'd let my cockatiel anywhere near my snakes though! Or my hamster for that matter. But it sure does make for funny pics!! Kind of reminds me of that video someone posted a few days ago of a woman who's tree python got into the finch cage and ate one lol

[millertime89]

ha ha, pretty funny
link to that thread Alessia? I must've missed it.

[alessia55]

ha ha, pretty funny
link to that thread Alessia? I must've missed it.

It was posted by lady_bug. Here's the video:

Tya-hOxvZn8

[TeaNinja]

who is that women? i wouldn't be like smiling and laughing that i'm such a failure. "like my snakes totally escape and im usually good at finding them but, i couldnt find it.....luckily i found it in the bird cage. it totally ate one of my other pets, like omg isn't that funny??" in fact, she gives it kudos for finding a way to escape and eat another pet.

[alessia55]

I think it's more of it's funny because there's nothing she can do about that missing bird now so it's more of a "lol, I failed" and "my snake is really clever" sort of thing. But the seriousness of the situation is definitely overlooked. It's still quite amusing that she's laughing about it in some odd way :p

[Lankyrob]

I love how instead of removing the snake from a situation where it could get hurt or eat another of her birds she instead goes to get the video camera and makes a film about it instead :rolleyes:

[jarich]

Oh come on now. Anyone who has kept multiple snakes in multiple enclosures has had an escape or two. They have so much time to find a way out and are so good at it! I thought it was pretty funny too. I mean, you always worry that when a snake gets out its going to get inside a wall and youll never find it. Here the thing is sitting perched big as you please inside another cage. That's funny!

[Jenn_06]

looks like that snake had its fill already and was taking a nap,i think if it was awake and looking for another meal she would not be filming and trying to get it out.

[alessia55]

Oh come on now. Anyone who has kept multiple snakes in multiple enclosures has had an escape or two. They have so much time to find a way out and are so good at it! I thought it was pretty funny too. I mean, you always worry that when a snake gets out its going to get inside a wall and youll never find it. Here the thing is sitting perched big as you please inside another cage. That's funny!

That's exactly how I saw it! You just explained it better ;) :p

[TeaNinja]

i don't find it funny, but that's just me. i was annoyed by her idiotic attitude and lack of care for her pets.

[lady_bug87]

i think it speaks about the ability our herps have t survive. it escaped and managed to get IN to the cage to eat a bird. Not saying I would be ok if my boa got out and ate my dog so I obviously take precautions against that but I think she had a good attitude about it instead of freaking out and killing the snake for eating her bird

[jaleely]

Jasper hadn't eaten since early July, so three small rats in a week isn't too much :) his behavior before this was actually more "Guy looking for a hot date" than now. Before he only came out when he could see Saphie, our juvenile girl BP. Avoided and ignored food, hid or only came out when he could hear saphie moving, or we were holding her. Now, he comes out, stares at me, and gets very active when something in the house is going on. We used to offer him food, even though we knew he probably wouldn't take it...and he didn't. One day a couple weeks ago that other personality just turned off and he just started acting like a hungry animal..no mistaking it! Whereas before we'd wiggle the rat etc he watched us unlatch his cage, followed us move the door, and struck right on the rat. We let him eat that first one in his enclosure, just since he was acting sa voracious. Next two, a different day, we took him out and put him on our "snake feeding mat". He was unsure for about a second then struck and gulped! Since last week that snake has been begging lol
Now here is my husbands enthusiasm ...he ordered a rabbit and like three guneia pigs to "give them variety and see what they like". He got all these different sized foods since all 11 snakes are so varied insize..not to mention if something is too big it can, if needed, be sliced down. Anyway there may be a good point about changing the food from rats to something else..it hasn't been something we've worried about since each of our snakes seem pleased ad pie to gobble down anything. I was scenting with different things for my hognose when we first got her and everyone wanted what she had lol.

It is a point to bring up with the hubby though..he orders snake food like they're Xmas presents! In fact he thought it would be cute to give them a special pig dinner for Thanksgiving lol!

So also, in the year having snakes no one has ever escaped. With as many clamps and lid etc we have I have a lot of confidence the never will. I'm way too worried about their safety and that of my other pets. Yes even though chocobo flew over and spent a while teasing Jasper, they were both safe. It was funny she was staring at him & trying to figure him out, oh THEN the protective posturing *rolls eyes* I shoo'd her away when Jasper finally figured he'd climb up to get her through the lid lol
Out of all my tarantuls, other bugs, snakes cats, dogs, now bird, etc. I plan to never make an opportunities for an escape. They are all too precious! :)

[zamaya]

i love Chocobo's name :D id probably name mine that if i had one, lol

[jaleely]

Oh kinda side note...the place we got him from said he was a terrible eater...that we'd have to hit him in the nose with his food, may have to force feed him...we have offered him food but never forced the issue. It wad just really cool to see him just wake up one day and we could tell he wanted food. I was so pleased when he ate! I know they can go off food for months and be OK, but this stupid place we adopted him from made it seem like he was so abused he'd never eat on his own. So, that's another reason it was kind of funny for me to see him hunting our goofy bird...he's a good boy! Hehehe!

[shaunyboy]

Oh kinda side note...the place we got him from said he was a terrible eater...that we'd have to hit him in the nose with his food, may have to force feed him...we have offered him food but never forced the issue. It wad just really cool to see him just wake up one day and we could tell he wanted food. I was so pleased when he ate! I know they can go off food for months and be OK, but this stupid place we adopted him from made it seem like he was so abused he'd never eat on his own. So, that's another reason it was kind of funny for me to see him hunting our goofy bird...he's a good boy! Hehehe!


sounds like the last owner force fed him through his self impossed fast

also sounds like they harrased him with the prey item,until he decided the only way to get relief from it was to eat it

the above is only my opinion

cheers shaun

[Kayla90]

bahaha that's adorable!

[jaleely]

yup supposedly one of the workers there had had him for three years, and he was always a "bad" eater. Seems like he's doing great to me! And his current, interested in food behavior has cracked me up! I go over there and he actually comes out to stare at me. I love it...begging animals are cute! LOL

[citysnakes]

Good to hear that you didn't take their advice and got your snake eating!:)



Oh kinda side note...the place we got him from said he was a terrible eater...that we'd have to hit him in the nose with his food, may have to force feed him...

Just wanted to say that these are both ways of ensuring that your snake remains a terrible eater...

[jaleely]

yup we really weren't going to try any of that until he started like, starving on us. he just wasn't hungry! little git.

I still think it's funny the bird sat on that cage forever and tried to figure out what he was...while he looked around and tried to figure out how to get to her *lol* both so domesticated they'd never survive in the wild!!

[spots]

I love how instead of removing the snake from a situation where it could get hurt or eat another of her birds she instead goes to get the video camera and makes a film about it instead :rolleyes:

HAHAHAHA Awesome point!!

[Aaron_S]

Jasper hadn't eaten since early July, so three small rats in a week isn't too much...

I'd just like to point out that it is probably too much for him. You're shocking his system at this point since his metabolism hasn't been working at all...for months. I would have stuck with a single small rat. He would have been fine with that.

Oh come on now. Anyone who has kept multiple snakes in multiple enclosures has had an escape or two.

Jarich, I have kept dozens of snakes in multiple enclosures and in 12 years I have had one, ONE escape. My first snake when I was 14. I've been 11 years without an escape. Nobody needs to have an escape no matter what if they are responsible.

[Jay]

Jarich, I have kept dozens of snakes in multiple enclosures and in 12 years I have had one, ONE escape. My first snake when I was 14. I've been 11 years without an escape. Nobody needs to have an escape no matter what if they are responsible.

Exactly, escapes are %100 the owners fault no matter the situation.

[millertime89]

granted I've only been a keeper for 2.5 months, but still no escapes and I plan on keeping it that way. I thought I had one but he had snap ringed himself into one of his hides.

[lady_bug87]

ive had 2... its awful lol

[alessia55]

The only time I've had a snake escape from me was when I first got Kaybe when he was a baby 2 years ago. I didn't have lid locks or anything like that, so I put two bricks and some books on top of the lid to hold it down. One morning I went looking for him and I couldn't find him. I took the lid off, and shuffled through all his bedding. He was gone! :eek: So I put the lid back on and.... yup, there he was. Sitting ON TOP of the lid! He had pushed the lid open despite the bricks and books and was sitting there all smug and happy about his accomplishment. Not to mention that I'd completely missed him when I took the lid off! Needless to say, I got locks for the lid that same day. Now he lives in a "snake proof" cage that locks completely. :p

[jaleely]

AaronS I beg to differ! :)
His metabolism has been working great since we got him. While he was "fasting" he shed twice, and pooped 5 times *lol*
When he finally decided he wanted to eat...he wanted to EAT. And all we had were medium rats. I still think 3 rats in a week is not too much at all for a 4 and a quarter foot long bratty ball!

[Jay]

I still think 3 rats in a week is not too much at all for a 4 and a quarter foot long bratty ball!

Based on what?
3 feedings in 7 days is absurd.

[lady_bug87]

I agree.

3 meals in a week for an animal who was force-fed or fasting is absurd think about snakes in the wild. they eat when they find food. If you keep offering him food he may just keep eating because he was starved before.

over feeding is an irresponsible practice it can lead to digestive issues and obesity which could dramatically influence your snake's quality of life. Snake metabolisms are a lot different then mammalian metabolisms they need more time to process and digest especially since BPs are generally fairly inactive as far as snakes go.

one appropriately sized meal 10-14 days should be sufficient (meaning a med to large rat) if you want to feed more often you can also try a smaller meal every 7 days

[lady_bug87]

and length has NOTHING to do with the amount they should or shouldn't eat

[Aaron_S]

AaronS I beg to differ! :)
His metabolism has been working great since we got him. While he was "fasting" he shed twice, and pooped 5 times *lol*
When he finally decided he wanted to eat...he wanted to EAT. And all we had were medium rats. I still think 3 rats in a week is not too much at all for a 4 and a quarter foot long bratty ball!

All snakes are vigorous feeders when they are hungry, doesn't mean we should keep feeding them.

I suppose you don't know what you're actually talking about though since you say he hadn't eaten since July but pooped 5 times. A snake can't poop without anything in it's system. So was it urates or poop? There's a big difference.

I don't get how shedding has anything to do metabolism either. I simply stated that you shocked his system. Your snake hasn't had to metabolise anything since July and you decide to stuff it to the brim. How is that NOT a shock?

[Aaron_S]

Just to be helpful.

I feed my males roughly 7 - 10 days depending on their size. My larger albino male will only get a meal about every other feeding as he doesn't need anymore food. For females they are fed a single rat every 7 - 10 days that weighs in the range of 80 to 100 grams.

Also, your "male" is over 4 foot? Where did you get him sexed? It may be a she.

[shaunyboy]

I love how instead of removing the snake from a situation where it could get hurt or eat another of her birds she instead goes to get the video camera and makes a film about it instead :rolleyes:


i thought that was class as well rob

when i first started watching i did a double take thinking,that can't be a gtp in a cage,with a small bird flying round

had to laugh,as its one of the stranger things i've seen on here:yes:

cheers shaun

[shaunyboy]

AaronS I beg to differ! :)
His metabolism has been working great since we got him. While he was "fasting" he shed twice, and pooped 5 times *lol*
When he finally decided he wanted to eat...he wanted to EAT. And all we had were medium rats. I still think 3 rats in a week is not too much at all for a 4 and a quarter foot long bratty ball!

i can't comment on ball pythons but with carpet pythons they stop pooping after 4 weeks of not eating

i give my diamond 4 weeks with no food before i put her into her cooling cycle,this allows her to clear her gut

she needs a clear gut so that when i drop her temps to 50f for 3 to 4 months theres no undigested prey due to lack of heat

she only gets fed 6 month of the year and after the first month of no food,she will not poop until after she's had 2 or 3 meals,thats after shes out of her cooling cycle.so theres no poop for roughly 5 to 6 months

when my diamonds go without food that long i like to start with a lot smaller than usual prey item

i feed 2 prey sizes down,once every 7 days for 2 to 3 weeks,then i feed 1 prey size down for another 2 weeks.imo only then,after 4 or 5 weeks of smaller prey items,do i feed them the prey size they should be getting

it gives me peace of mind knowing i've gradually built up their prey size and not overloaded their systems with a huge meal after not eating for months

the above is just my way of doing things,everyone has their own methods for times like these

cheers shaun

[jaleely]

Wow. I wonder what tone you guys meant to have with your posts. AaronS was "I suppose you don't know what you're actually talking about though since you say he hadn't eaten since July but pooped 5 times." really necessary? It was rude. Also Jay0133, what factual basis do you have to say that feeding a snake 3 times in a week is absurd? I suppose if i said I was giving him huge meals, or something, maybe. You're just generalizing and saying "no snake should eat three times in a week! that's just wrong!!" Says who...you? I suppose it sounds horrible to you, but, it wasn't.

Seems like a few of you are very judgemental and act like know-it-alls. I'm pretty sure if he was in the wild he would just eat when he wanted...like he does now. As I stated I -wasn't- shoving it down his throat or hitting him in the face with it. If he didn't want it, he wouldn't eat it. Animals are pretty stupid, but despite how you see it, I wasn't going to let him eat himself to death *rolls eyes*

Also, Lady_bug...he wasn't starved before. He was mistreated, but not starved at all. Overfeeding IS an irresponsible practice. My point in explaining his length, was to give you an idea of his size...and you can clearly see in these photos and others, he is not over-fed.

As to weather his metabolism was going or not...Nothing much I can do to prove it to you otherwise, but it can't be denied that the snake pooped white poop 5 times. The first being the largest, the last being just a little bit...probably coming out just because he peed. *shrug* poop is poop and that's how many times I cleaned it up.

In retrospect, perhaps I was just happy he was eating, and wanted to give him all that he wanted, if he would take it. Rudely acting like i'm stupid and only you have the right answers and I've done something wrong to harm my snake is probably a bit too much, though, guys.
I've only owned snakes for about a year, so of course i don't know everything. Your attitudes are pretty crappy though. None of that was helpful advice at all, it was just judgmental.
Aaron S you say "I'd just like to point out that it is probably too much for him (so you don't know for sure, you're guessing). You're shocking his system at this point since his metabolism hasn't been working at all...for months. (Again, i disagreed with this by stating that his metabolism was working fine, since he was defecating, and growing along, having sheds.) I would have stuck with a single small rat. He would have been fine with that. " Yup. He may have been fine with that. But it sure didn't hurt him to have another rat.

Jeez guys, plus I said medium rats....they were closer to small really, but I really hate having to feel like I should justify anything to you.
I really just thought the photo of the bird and the snake discovering each other was funny.

And yes he is a he, and yes he is over 4 feet long. And no, I didn't "stuff him to the brim". In all reality I think it was 3 days before the second rat, and then 4 days for the last rat... plenty of time in-between for him to decide he's full.
Oh well. I know that he's happy and healthy, and If he ever shows signs otherwise I'll make sure to let you guys know before I call a vet. I wouldn't want to miss out on the helpful advice you would give.

[Lankyrob]

Isn't "white poo" urates? :)

[Gungirl]

White "poop" is not poop at all it is Urates. I agree with the guys above, you over did it. The guys offering you advice are very knowledgeable and wouldn't say things just to get the new guy going. Don't get upset or defensive They only gave advice to help you take better care of your snake. Did they offer it in a super nice way? no not really but we can only read the same mistakes that people make so many times before its hard to be nice, so we switch to blunt. I hope you can sit back and take what they are saying in.

[Jay]

Stop being so proud, take the advice givin. I am no expert and I have never claimed to be one, the first thing I I can remember learning about snakes is their ability to go so long without eating. Ball pythons do not need to be fed 3 times a week, try doing some research on that. I'm not wasting my time doing it for you when you don't respect it.

[lady_bug87]

we're allowed to disagree with you. I wasn't trying to be mean like Kat said I was being blunt. You over did it IN MY OPINION you made a mistake IN MY OPINION you should not continue to feed him at that volume IN MY OPINION

They are your animals keep them however you please, but you are not doing him any favours by overfeeding and no matter if he 'begs' or not. I'm not an expert either I make mistakes all the time but when I decide to write about it and I get people telling me its a mistake I follow their advice

If you dont want to open yourself up to criticism then you should watch what you post because when you do its license for others to read it and reply. I highly doubt I am being unfair just very brutally honest.

[KORBIN5895]

The village idiot is ready to speak. To those that gave advice I have two things to say. Honest and very heart felt. Harsh and slightly arrogant. I realize you guys have more experience than some of us. I also realize you see the same mistakes being made over and over again. So I see how you guys get frustrated. I see only two options to help here. Either stop allowing noobs to join or please be more patient with us that haven't been as serious about it as you are. You guys truly are a source of great knowledge and [B][/IB] appreciate that but it is harder to take advice given in the manner it was given.

Jaleely I find your posts slightly confusing. When you start saying you feed small rats then say when he was hungry you only had mediums to give him I get lost. Is this the BP you thought had a tear in it's esophagus? I thought you gave this guy a rat tail ans other small animals in other posts? I honestly am quite confused. I have seen where you are starting a snake rescue and think that if you have the time space and resources that you should grab the ball and run with it. You obviously have the heart to do. Somethinf wonserful for misunderstood animals. But you will also need knowledge which h I feel this place is the perfect thing for. I have a rat rescue story for you if you would like to hear it some time.

To those that are pissed at the FTP lady I have one question. Would you be pissed at me for feeding my atb a finch? Because I am having a difficult time getting him to eat mice or rats ,frozen or live. I tracked down the original owner and found out I am like the 5th owner and he feed it live birds. I understand where she is not concerned about her pet birds but hey it is the circle of life

[jaleely]

Korbin, This snake is my 10 year old adopted snake, whereas the one with the esophagus tear is "Ribs" from the pound. (Thank you for your words, BTW! :)

And really, I actually know i have a tendency to ramble, and write a bunch of stuff. I type really fast and it just comes out as i think it :)
I did say medium rats at first...and later i ceded that they were small-medium. But I mean really...my point is, the volume of food was probably equal to one small rabbit or something. WHy should it matter if i spread it out over three feedings? I guess that's my point. Everyone seems to think i force-fed him an elephant three times in a row. Sheesh.

And i am -not- going to get technical terms correct. Poop is poop to me. For now.
HOWEVER if someone had pointed out that the white poop is whatever it is, and I shouldn't be labeling it as poop...and therefore his metabolism wasn't working as i thought it was...it's probably something you should say nicely so I can take the advice, and look it up.
It's kind of hard to know everything when i don't know i need to look it up, you know!

I am learning new things about my snakes every day...hence the reason i wanted to join a snake forum *rolls eyes* I'm not about to put up with rudeness for no reason though. If you're tired of repeating yourself (which i did not ask you to) then don't say anything. If you want to volunteer information that you think i should know...be nice. It's as plain as that. This post was in no way asking your opinion on his feeding, pooping, or personality quirks i think he has.
If you want to make it about that though...which you did...at least two of you could have minded your manners.
I am NOT prideful. I LOVE advice. Because i LOVE my snakes (weather they like me or not =P

I already ceded that I may have been overexcited to see that he was eating, and moving around and showing interest in food. *shrug* no need to jump on my back for it. If you think i'm killing him or something...even that could have been said with some feeling...and should have been, if you're so concerned with my snake's well-being.

I don't know. I was having a lot of fun making posts, and reading about everyone's snakes. I jumped into snake husbandry with both feet, and am honestly trying to learn a lot of species at once right now. But, again, that's why I'm here. It's not like i'm not trying to learn, and I completely am open to advice. Everytime I learn something new i shout it to my husband across the house in excitement. I do take time to look things up, if i don't understand. I just shouldn't have to feel bummed out that some "oldies" got irritated at my "noob-ness". Come on. Like I said, if you're tired of saying things...then don't. If you feel it needs to be said, then say it nice *shrug*

[shaunyboy]

korbin

i feel my advice was neither harsh or arrogant

i merely explained how long it usually takes for a snake to clear its gut

i also explained how i start by feeding prey 2 sizes to small,then prey 1 size to small,to get the snakes stomach used to eating again

an arrogant person surely would not end a post by saying the above is my way of doing things,everyone has their own methods for times like these

to the op
the white poop is urates not poop

eurates is a solidified salt like substance a snake passes instead of urine

i hope my post did not offend you,as that was not my intention

my intention was to give you my own personal experiences in fasting snakes 6 month of the year and my way of doing starting them back on prey,it was nothing more than some facts and a suggestion

re people always reffering to snakes in the wild
snakes may do things in the wild we would not agree with in captivity,but a lot of snakes die in the wild.the example you give of a snake in the wild eating 3 rats in a week.my thoughts on that are the snake in the wild,gets far more excercise than a captive snake kept in a wooden box.thats assuming a wild snake would bulk itself up with 3 feeds in 7 days.

the above is just my humble opinion,nothing more

we all learn from each other and at times theres more than one correct way to do things.imo this is why forums like these are great for learning from each others personal experiences

cheers shaun

[jarich]

All snakes are vigorous feeders when they are hungry, doesn't mean we should keep feeding them.

I suppose you don't know what you're actually talking about though since you say he hadn't eaten since July but pooped 5 times. A snake can't poop without anything in it's system. So was it urates or poop? There's a big difference.

I don't get how shedding has anything to do metabolism either. I simply stated that you shocked his system. Your snake hasn't had to metabolise anything since July and you decide to stuff it to the brim. How is that NOT a shock?

First, I think we had already established in a separate thread that there was no justification for being rude, by anyone. This forum is for the sake of learning, for both beginner and expert alike. Calling people absurd or saying they dont know what they are talking about doesnt help to teach them anything. If you are an expert, then you have a responsibility to pass on that knowledge for the sake of the animal.

Second, in this case the "experts" are incorrect in their assessment and the "noob" has it right. The length of fasting has no direct correlation on metabolic rate in pythons. Therefore, their metabolic system is not shocked by this, they evolved to this situation directly. Feeding a python 3 rats after a long fast is not unhealthy. This is not my opinion or thoughts on my years of experience, but has been shown in scientific studies like these:

The Effects of Fasting Duration on the Metabolic Response to Feeding in Pythons. J. Overgaard, J Anderson, T. Wang. Physiological and Biochemical Zoology. 75:4 July/August 2002

Responses of Python Gastrointestinal Regulatory Peptides to Feeding. S. Secor, D. Fehserfeld, J. Diamond, T. Adrian. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. 98:24 Nov 20/2001.

Gastric function and its contribution to the postprandial metabolic response of the Burmese python Python molurus (http://jeb.biologists.org/content/206/10/1621.full)

Jaleely you are also right in stating that shedding shows very true signs of healthy metabolic rates. As can be seen here in credible scientific research here:

CSIRO PUBLISHING - Australian Journal of Zoology (http://www.publish.csiro.au/?paper=ZO99012)

Feeding your ball three small rats is not a big deal once. Obviously, feeding it that way all the time is not good as it will get fat. But thats not what anyone was talking about here, was it? As always, this seems to be a result of miscommunication. Which is kind of funny as this all seems to have stemmed from what was supposed to be a funny thread. Jeez, lighten up guys!

[shaunyboy]

First, I think we had already established in a separate thread that there was no justification for being rude, by anyone. This forum is for the sake of learning, for both beginner and expert alike. Calling people absurd or saying they dont know what they are talking about doesnt help to teach them anything. If you are an expert, then you have a responsibility to pass on that knowledge for the sake of the animal.

Second, in this case the "experts" are incorrect in their assessment and the "noob" has it right. The length of fasting has no direct correlation on metabolic rate in pythons. Therefore, their metabolic system is not shocked by this, they evolved to this situation directly. Feeding a python 3 rats after a long fast is not unhealthy. This is not my opinion or thoughts on my years of experience, but has been shown in scientific studies like these:

JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie (http://www.jstor.org/pss/10.1086/342769?searchUrl=%2Faction%2FdoBasicSearch%3FQuery %3Dau%253A%2522J.%2BOvergaard%2522%26wc%3Don&Search=yes)

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Gastric function and its contribution to the postprandial metabolic response of the Burmese python Python molurus (http://jeb.biologists.org/content/206/10/1621.full)

Jaleely you are also right in stating that shedding shows very true signs of healthy metabolic rates. As can be seen here in credible scientific research here:

CSIRO PUBLISHING - Australian Journal of Zoology (http://www.publish.csiro.au/?paper=ZO99012)

Feeding your ball three small rats is not a big deal once. Obviously, feeding it that way all the time is not good as it will get fat. But thats not what anyone was talking about here, was it? As always, this seems to be a result of miscommunication. Which is kind of funny as this all seems to have stemmed from what was supposed to be a funny thread. Jeez, lighten up guys!


thanks for the link to the scientific papers mate

i gave my example of the diamond python a true cold weather python,can survive temps of zero degrees

diamonds eating habits can determine how long they will live,a fat diamonds a dead diamond

so how and when you feed them is very important

i wrongly made the assumption it was similar for ball pythons,which from what little i've read so far on your links prooves its not so

perfect example of why forums like these are good for all of us to learn from each other

cheers shaun

[jarich]

Totally true! And I think you are pretty much right in general about fat snakes being dead snakes, or any animal for that matter. Luckily that wasnt the problem for Jaleely.

Anyway, Im just drooling over some black bloods on kingsnake. After seeing the ones that another member on this forum had, I cant get them out of my mind.

[KORBIN5895]

I must apologize again. What I meant was you guys ALL care about your snakes and you also obviously care about how others care for their snakes. I didn't necessarily mean to lump all posters together nor was I looking to point anyone out. I really believe the hardcore herpers can teach us many important and valuable things. Also if you felt you were being kinda and informative while trying to point out something you felt was being done wrong or going to harm the snake well my post was directed at you. I am not looking to attack anyone and I definitely don't need to be a target.

Shaun I have always found what you have to say polite and informative

[jaleely]

jarich, you have the most diplomatic posts I've ever read...you're awesome! I try, but I always get worked up anyway : )

SO...just so we're clear...Jasper won't be having three rats a week. He is a healthy weight, and he's doing great and just about to go into shed, actually. The bird is fine too. lol

And yes, I didn't know to call it urates. In fact I obviously hadn't even differentiated. To me, "Poop=defecation=1. To remove (impurities, as in a chemical solution); clarify.
2. To void from the bowels."
But, now I know and I will use that term actually..so thank you for informing me. Really! Not being sarcastic.

Black Blood Pythons...they are pretty good looking! Check this one out...it's had more than three rats for sure!

http://www.proexotics.com/retail_products/Pythons/new_python/borneo_blood_big_3-22-02.jpg

[Aaron_S]

First of all, you obviously didn't read all my posts as I stated what the white things are called and I did leave a post detailing my feeding regime for my breeding snakes. Breeding snakes is a solid indication of healthy animals. They don't breed if they aren't.

Secondly, I read both of those links but neither discuss the effects of long term fasting. If there was in the first link could you please provide exact paragraphs for my reading? The second doesn't really state it either as it's just a very small article done 10 years ago.

Third, I will amend what I said and say that the snake had a very inactive metabolism. It was still there, thus why he shed and still passed urates.

Most snake species don't need 3 small - medium rats in a single feeding.

Also for your information, that black blood is most likely overweight even though that is a more robust snake species than ball pythons. On average bloods get to a 20 pound size in a four foot snake. That is how they are. Don't compare different species.

Lastly, I do not need to sugar coat anything for anyone. If you're putting a snake in jeopardy than I will say so without kiddie gloves. I also wasn't guessing. You ARE doing harm to your snake by overfeeding. Don't continue it or you'll develop fatty tissue around it's organs.

We as keepers have to realize we must regulate their in take. People only feed aboreal snakes 10 - 14 days as they tend to have a slower metabolism and don't burn it off quickly. We shouldn't just offer food until they don't take it as some just keep eating and will develop issues.

[jarich]

First of all, you obviously didn't read all my posts as I stated what the white things are called and I did leave a post detailing my feeding regime for my breeding snakes. Breeding snakes is a solid indication of healthy animals. They don't breed if they aren't.

Secondly, I read both of those links but neither discuss the effects of long term fasting. If there was in the first link could you please provide exact paragraphs for my reading? The second doesn't really state it either as it's just a very small article done 10 years ago.

Third, I will amend what I said and say that the snake had a very inactive metabolism. It was still there, thus why he shed and still passed urates.

Most snake species don't need 3 small - medium rats in a single feeding.


Lastly, I do not need to sugar coat anything for anyone. If you're putting a snake in jeopardy than I will say so without kiddie gloves. I also wasn't guessing. You ARE doing harm to your snake by overfeeding. Don't continue it or you'll develop fatty tissue around it's organs.

Hmmmmm, are we having fun yet Aaron?

Ive put in bold the things that seem to need rectifying in your statements. You say someone else didnt read your statements closely, but it appears you were the one guilty of this in the first place. Jaleely did not state that she regularly fed her BP 3 rats on a regular basis, or that this was her feeding regimen. Yet you talk about her putting her animal in jeopardy due to fatty liver disease. When she corrected you, stating that she only did this one time because the animal had not eaten in quite some time, you switched to saying that would hurt it because it had fasted for so long.

In response to that change, I posted FOUR articles for you to read, although only two of those had links (again, it seems like you are the one who has trouble reading posts critically). The first two articles I posted you can find online at JSTOR, though I didnt put direct links in my post. The very first article directly details exactly why you are mistaken, so feel free to read it and PM me for any further help you might need in understanding the science behind it.

Also, an animal in shed has a very active metabolism. Again read the articles I provided and you will see that the metabolism in a python is sometimes actually more active when they shed than when they eat. Hard to believe, and I would not have thought it was true until I read the science behind it; still true though.

As far as breeding snakes being healthy snakes, this does not seem to be the truth. For instance, lets use the present example of fatty liver disease. An animal with fatty liver disease will breed just fine, for years in fact, until it dies prematurely. Breeding is an instinct so paramount that it surpasses health in many cases. Breeding is not the final word on health, it is more of a minimal indicator of health.

And lastly, no one asked you to "sugar coat" it Aaron. You can just as easily say the information without calling people names or attacking them personally. As a matter of fact, if you do it in a socially acceptable way, they are much more likely to actually use the information you have given them. And if youre point is to make the difference in the snakes life, then guess what? You first have to get through to the owner. I could walk up to someone and slap them in the face, and know that pretty much anything I say after isnt going to be well received. But if I walk up and say, "hey I noticed you doing that; but in my experience this might be a better way of doing it" then they are much more likely to actually take my advice. Therefore they are then much more likely to make a difference in the snakes life. What do you think?

[Aaron_S]

Hmmmmm, are we having fun yet Aaron?

Ive put in bold the things that seem to need rectifying in your statements. You say someone else didnt read your statements closely, but it appears you were the one guilty of this in the first place. Jaleely did not state that she regularly fed her BP 3 rats on a regular basis, or that this was her feeding regimen. Yet you talk about her putting her animal in jeopardy due to fatty liver disease. When she corrected you, stating that she only did this one time because the animal had not eaten in quite some time, you switched to saying that would hurt it because it had fasted for so long.

In response to that change, I posted FOUR articles for you to read, although only two of those had links (again, it seems like you are the one who has trouble reading posts critically). The first two articles I posted you can find online at JSTOR, though I didnt put direct links in my post. The very first article directly details exactly why you are mistaken, so feel free to read it and PM me for any further help you might need in understanding the science behind it.

Also, an animal in shed has a very active metabolism. Again read the articles I provided and you will see that the metabolism in a python is sometimes actually more active when they shed than when they eat. Hard to believe, and I would not have thought it was true until I read the science behind it; still true though.

As far as breeding snakes being healthy snakes, this does not seem to be the truth. For instance, lets use the present example of fatty liver disease. An animal with fatty liver disease will breed just fine, for years in fact, until it dies prematurely. Breeding is an instinct so paramount that it surpasses health in many cases. Breeding is not the final word on health, it is more of a minimal indicator of health.

And lastly, no one asked you to "sugar coat" it Aaron. You can just as easily say the information without calling people names or attacking them personally. As a matter of fact, if you do it in a socially acceptable way, they are much more likely to actually use the information you have given them. And if youre point is to make the difference in the snakes life, then guess what? You first have to get through to the owner. I could walk up to someone and slap them in the face, and know that pretty much anything I say after isnt going to be well received. But if I walk up and say, "hey I noticed you doing that; but in my experience this might be a better way of doing it" then they are much more likely to actually take my advice. Therefore they are then much more likely to make a difference in the snakes life. What do you think?


I am having fun. Thanks for asking.

To set the record straight I did not imply that this was an ongoing feeding regime of hers, you are putting words into my mouth. I stated that it was a bad idea as they are "shocking" the system.

I read those two articles and they have NOTHING to do with fasting. I have yet to read the first ones without links as I don't currently have the time but I will and I will admit to my mistakes if I am indeed wrong. Currently, as it stands, the other articles have to do with metabolic rates and how snakes digest.

Where is your science behind the shedding metabolism? I can see how they can be more active during this time but I'd like to see your facts.

How about you experiment by attempting to feed your breeding females a very infrequent diet and see how they do. Breeding is in fact a good indicator if an animal is healthy or not. It isn't the end all be all of indicators but it is still a good one.

Lastly, everyone asked me to not be so harsh so I don't see how "no one" asked me to not sugar coat things. I'll tell you a story. Once upon a time long ago on this very forum I tried correcting someone on something that they knew far more about than me. I got put in my place just as I have done here. I apologized for being wrong and what I said and learned from then on to just read and learn from others before I go spouting misinformation.

I'm going to stop talking to you now since you're the person who believes escaped snakes is just another part of the hobby.

[jarich]

If we are having fun then why stop talking to me?! And no, I didn't say escapes were a regular part of snake keeping. What I did say was that it does sometimes happen and we shouldn't say someone is a bad keeper just because of an escape. I've had one escape, you said you had one too. I don't think it makes either of us irresponsible keepers just because of one escape. Do you?

As for the articles, they all talk about metabolism and feeding, and the first is exclusively about fasting. As regards shedding and metabolism specifically, that last article details it in full. (Sloughing is another way of saying shedding) And that's not a "one paragraph article", that one paragraph is the abstract. An abstract is a one paragraph synopsis of the full article. I'm starting to feel a little like I'm sort of a bully if I'm having to explain this.*

Ok look, I'm really not wanting to start any fight man. Honestly I just wanted you to lighten up on the way you dole out your information, that's all. You seem to genuinely care about snakes and that's great. Maybe just try to be a little more empathetic towards the person you are trying to help teach.*

However this discussion of metabolic rates and fasting/feeding is pretty interesting and applicable to the forum. So how about we start a new thread that deals with that topic exclusively? We can get rid of the added baggage of all this other nonsense and just talk about the evidence as its displayed in those articles and any others that people find. It seems like it could be a pretty cool and informative thing if we go about it right. Deal?

[spots]

We got to get you two together in person, to see some real action. LOL