Ee ggads rats stink! (Switching mice to rats) [Archive]

ZARADOZIA

10-31-11, 03:49 PM

ok, so I waited an extra week before feeding Sasha because I am trying to switch her from mice to rats. Sasha laughed at me...I swear she did when I tried to get her to eat the rat. I was smart, and listened to all the advice I have read here and thawed a mouse as well.

So I do the zombie dance and Sasha is playing peek a boo. She sniffs the rat and kept looking for the mouse. So I laid the rat down and grabbed the mouse, then the rat so I am now holding the mouse and rat side by side with the tongs. She smells that mouse and she really wants that mouse. This goes on for about 6 minutes. Finally I get tired of holding them up and laid them down side by side. Sasha sniffs both, going back and forth many times and evnetualy picked up the mouse to eat it. She did not want the rat at all!

So as she is about to finish eating the mouse I grab the rat with the tongs and hold its head to her mouth so when she flexes her jaws she grabs a hold of it. She ate it too. But not much by choice...lol I was concerned that she might spit it out.

I have videos but don't have time to edit or post them right now. If you don't mind the unedited version I can post them after I finish cooking.

jarich

10-31-11, 03:58 PM

Im curious as to why you are so motivated to switch to rats? With just the one snake it doesnt seem like you would be raising them, which is about the only reason I can think of for switching over (mice actually stink terribly compared to rats when you are raising them). I suppose in the long run rats might be cheaper, but again with only one snake that shouldnt be a big issue.

Valvaren

10-31-11, 04:01 PM

Lankyrob

10-31-11, 05:43 PM

BP's would need multiple prey items if fed mice whereas rats are that much bigger and will only need one or maybe two for an adult feed.

ZARADOZIA

10-31-11, 07:20 PM

wow...what happened to Youngster's, Wayne's and my replies?

alessia55

10-31-11, 07:25 PM

my post disappeared too :confused:

millertime89

10-31-11, 07:32 PM

it seems the forum has a problem, posts have disappeared elsewhere as well...

infernalis

10-31-11, 07:38 PM

Looking into it... I found many missing posts.

exwizard

10-31-11, 08:26 PM

BP's would need multiple prey items if fed mice whereas rats are that much bigger and will only need one or maybe two for an adult feed.

I agree with this as well. Theres a whole lot more to rats than to mice so the meal would be more satisfying with rats as well.

shaunyboy

10-31-11, 11:36 PM

I always thought the first rule to switched was to hold out and not let them have a mouse because that wasn't going to help at all. I also don't understand why you 'forced' it to eat a rat by putting it in its mouth unless you planned on feeding two meals at the same time.

it is a very common practice to give a snake a double meal when converting to rats

people wait until the mouse tails is just about gone,then introduce the rats head to the snake.an assist feed in a way.

i took from the op's post that she dangled the rat with feeding tongs and they snake took it of its own accord.JUST RE READ the op did assist feed with her tongs.imo a perfectly good way that a lot of people practice,when switching from mice to rats

either way imo,its a recognised way of switching from one type prey item to a different type prey that your snake may be reluctant to eat

you could always try scenting the rat with the mouse,but it is a bit messy and smelly

you have to burst open the mouse and smear the mouse blood and guts all over the rat.with the hope that your snake mistakes the rat for a mouse.once they start taking heavily scented rats regularily,then you just use less and less scent each feed until they take unscented rats

yours may already be converted.if it was me,next feed i'd defrost the rat with the mouse on top of it,then offer only the rat.he may just go for it and your jobs done

let us know how his next feed goes please

cheers shaun

jarich

11-01-11, 06:50 AM

I see what you mean, its easier to feed one rat than three mice. My concern was more with going through all the stress and bother with switching if its based on what seems to be a prevalent misconception, that somehow rats are more nutritious. Im not sure if that was the reason for your switch though, Zaradozia. You seem to do a lot of research on everything as well so Im guessing it was probably more for convenience sake than anything else.

alessia55

11-01-11, 07:25 AM

ZARADOZIA

11-02-11, 05:15 AM

Last year I tried switching to rats and she didn't eat for 7 months. So that obviously didn't work. Now I am going to try a much more slow and gradual process allowing her time to get use to the smell.

Basic rule of thumb: Why continue to do the same thing over and over and expect different results? That's like banging your head against the wall and expecting it not to hurt the third time.

I did defrost them together in the same bowl in hopes their odors would mingle. I am not ready to do the messy stuff yet.

Vid is 10 minutes that you won't ever get back. Sorry I don't know how to speed frame yet. Still learning.
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i25/Vandacross/Sasha%20Oct%2030%202011/th_Untitled.jpg (http://s68.photobucket.com/albums/i25/Vandacross/Sasha%20Oct%2030%202011/?action=view&current=Untitled.mp4)

jarich

11-02-11, 07:10 AM

Ah, I see my post has yet to reappear after the weird forum glitch.

Well, to summarize what I'd said:
Zaradozia is trying to prevent my situation: My 2yr old ball python has become a very picky eater and now the only thing he'll eat is 3 mice in one sitting as a meal.

Again, Im not sure I understand why this is a problem. Your ball only eats mice...ok, so feed it mice. Why go seven months withholding a perfectly nutritious and healthy food from the animal? Why go through all the stress inducing ordeal you are discussing? I cant see how this makes logical sense when you both are talking about one or two animals. Financially its not that much difference. (1 mouse is $1 or less, 1 rat is $2 or less, so youre only talking about a dollar difference per feeding, given that 3 mice equal one rat) I could see it if you were breeding them and had dozens of animals, but with one animal youre talking about around $50 difference a year in total. That hardly seems worth the stress you may be causing them.

If you were raising the prey items, again I could understand your desire to change to rats. Mice are super smelly and nasty animals to breed, whereas rats are clean and very social animals. But your not breeding your prey so thats not applicable here either.

Though its getting on the technical side, mice are actually a healthier animal to feed your snakes anyway(more nutrients, less fat). Check out the breakdown.. Nutrition Feeder Mice | Nutrient Composition of Feeder Animals (http://www.rodentpro.com/qpage_articles_03.asp) Its just my opinion, but if your animal is feeding regularly on a perfectly healthy and balanced diet then there seems like no reason to change it.

alessia55

11-02-11, 07:17 AM

Again, Im not sure I understand why this is a problem. Your ball only eats mice...ok, so feed it mice. Why go seven months withholding a perfectly nutritious and healthy food from the animal? Why go through all the stress inducing ordeal you are discussing? I cant see how this makes logical sense when you both are talking about one or two animals. Financially its not that much difference. (1 mouse is $1 or less, 1 rat is $2 or less, so youre only talking about a dollar difference per feeding, given that 3 mice equal one rat) I could see it if you were breeding them and had dozens of animals, but with one animal youre talking about around $50 difference a year in total. That hardly seems worth the stress you may be causing them.

My priority is switching him over to f/t (since he's eating LIVE mice), but but switching him over to rats at the same time. Why rats? Because the live mice I buy are SIX dollars each. Yup. Oh, and a 30min drive EACH WAY (so factor in time + gas money). F/t rats could be kept in my freezer. So why not f/t MICE? Because he'd go through them faster. I don't have any place near me to find f/t prey unless I order online which is a little higher than my budget because they add in shipping etc. The best place for me to buy f/t is at expos, which aren't often. Why have to buy two bags of f/t mice when I could have him eating 1 bag of f/t rats? As far as money, convenience, and ease, switching him over to f/t rats seems totally worth it. :yes:

jarich

11-02-11, 07:40 AM

Ah! enough said! Sorry, hope I wasnt being a pain there. I wasnt envisioning that a pet store would be so far away. Have you thought of raising rats? They really are pretty cool animals to breed :)

alessia55

11-02-11, 07:42 AM

Ah! enough said! Sorry, hope I wasnt being a pain there. I wasnt envisioning that a pet store would be so far away. Have you thought of raising rats? They really are pretty cool animals to breed :)

:eek: oh no. I am not a mouse/rat person at all. Plus I only have 2 snakes so raising rats would be silly since it would produce more rats than I need, etc etc. Not to mention that feeding f/t is safer for the snake, so. I'll stick to the dead ones in my freezer ;)

jarich

11-02-11, 07:54 AM

Ya, totally agree about the f/t. I have a vacuum packer unit that makes it easy. I just put them in a bag, suck all the air out and they die quickly. I can then put them straight into the freezer and not have to worry about freezer burn or anything.

Rats are really cool little guys though! So inquisitive and social; I feel bad sometimes when I have to feed one of the older ones that Ive become attached to. I like my snakes a lot more though ;)

alessia55

11-02-11, 07:56 AM

I name all the live mice I feed Kaybe "Breakfast, Lunch, Dinner" for all 3 mice lol. It helps me not get attached ;)

infernalis

11-02-11, 02:01 PM

I keep certain rats, my colonies have produced 3 hairless rats over the course of time, I keep them and name them.

Streaker got skin cancer and I had to shoot him.

jarich

11-02-11, 02:07 PM

You shot him?! Yikes, that wouldve been messy. Why not feed him to an animal?

youngster

11-02-11, 02:20 PM

If he had cancer I would assume he's not fit for food.

jarich

11-02-11, 02:36 PM

In the most basic concept, cancer is just a group of cells that grows faster than it should. They often dont have the normal functioning of other cells but wouldnt be any different from a digestive point of view than any other part of the animal. We think of it as diseased, but biologically its not really any different than any organ, bone, etc.

youngster

11-02-11, 02:39 PM

Well it was a thought :smug:

Gungirl

11-02-11, 02:48 PM

If he kept it as a pet.. he might have just not wanted another pet eating that pet. Some people think that way.. idk

infernalis

11-02-11, 04:34 PM

He was too big for my BP to eat, and Kane is the biggest snake I own.

any rats over a couple months of age are too big for Kane.

So we took him out behind the barn and shot him in the head with a .22, it was instant.

Then he got buried.

If I had a big Boa or a larger Python, of course I would have fed him off, but I'm not going to choke our BP with an oversize rat. ;)

jarich

11-02-11, 04:38 PM

Ha! Reason enough to start looking for a larger snake eh?!

alessia55

11-02-11, 04:49 PM

Ha! Reason enough to start looking for a larger snake eh?!

lol love the reasoning on this forum :yes:

ZARADOZIA

11-02-11, 05:04 PM

I'm sitting here reading this and thinking about my cats. I love my reptiles as much as I love my cats. I could not feed any of them to the other if they died.

I don't necessarily see anything wrong with it in the greater scheme of things (Removing sentiment from the equation and replacing it with logic) but I couldn't do it...lol

KORBIN5895

11-02-11, 05:17 PM

So I heard that kittens make good feed for large boas and Burmese pythons? Is that true? People are giving away kittens all the time around here.

Gungirl

11-02-11, 05:28 PM

So I heard that kittens make good feed for large boas and Burmese pythons? Is that true? People are giving away kittens all the time around here.

Lmao....:blink:

infernalis

11-02-11, 06:09 PM

Honestly....... rather than seeing shelters euthanizing and destroying litters of kittens, wouldn't it make more sense??

alessia55

11-02-11, 06:21 PM

Honestly....... rather than seeing shelters euthanizing and destroying litters of kittens, wouldn't it make more sense??

I've actually been at a shelter twice when someone came by to pick up the next-on-the-list kittens for feeding :eek:

Not sure if I'd have the heart to do it though... I love kittehs :(

mattchibi

11-02-11, 06:28 PM

Honestly....... rather than seeing shelters euthanizing and destroying litters of kittens, wouldn't it make more sense??

I guess it would. I know they do this in Australia because cats are kind of like racoons or squirrels over there.

Personally though, just because I was raised within North American culture, I don't think I could bring myself to feed a burm a kitten. I'd rather shell out more money every feeding time for rabbits imo. In a moral sense though, I'd have no problem with it. Just a bit squeemish, thats all.

And in response to rats vs. mice. Adult rats have much more nutrients and protein than adult mice. Adult mice tend to contain more fat and are not the ideal meal for an adult ball python because it requires more of them. My question is, why do breeders even start their hatchlings on mice in the first place, unless they have rejected rats a few times?

I know mice is like candy to hatchlings, but seriously, its much easier making the transition at the very beginning, rather then "switching" them over afterwards.

infernalis

11-02-11, 06:29 PM

I've actually been at a shelter twice when someone came by to pick up the next-on-the-list kittens for feeding :eek:

Not sure if I'd have the heart to do it though... I love kittehs :(

I have 2 adopted strays myself, it still seems such a waste to just kill them for nothing.

KORBIN5895

11-02-11, 06:39 PM

I think I just peed myself! !! That is awesome. I said it as a joke but I guess it make alot of sense. I will eatanything if you cook it and eat it with me. So I don't see an issue with that at all.

alessia55

11-02-11, 06:47 PM

If only people were more diligent about spaying and neutering cats... It's such a pity to see the number of kittens that have to die every day... :(

Not sure where I stand with regards to feeding a kitten to a snake though... At first thought I'm not comfortable with the idea (because I love da kittehs so much) but I'm not sure if they're "better off" being fed to a snake than being euthanized. Hmm..

Gungirl

11-02-11, 07:05 PM

I agree with doing it seeing as I hate cats.. that's why my comment was LMAO! I would rather feed cats than rats. I like the rats more...lol

KORBIN5895

11-02-11, 08:39 PM

Lol. I hate outdoor cats with a passion. If you want one indoor cat fine (that's why we live in America and you Canadians should stop fooling yourselves cause your pretty much Americans) 2 is definitely pushing it. Anymore than 2 and your a crazy cat lady.

jarich

11-02-11, 09:43 PM

And in response to rats vs. mice. Adult rats have much more nutrients and protein than adult mice. Adult mice tend to contain more fat and are not the ideal meal for an adult ball python because it requires more of them. My question is, why do breeders even start their hatchlings on mice in the first place, unless they have rejected rats a few times?

I know mice is like candy to hatchlings, but seriously, its much easier making the transition at the very beginning, rather then "switching" them over afterwards.

I completely agree that adult rats have more protein. However, a lack of protein has not been known to be a problem for captive animals. They are not lacking in protein on either a mouse-based or rat-based diet. But as I mentioned before, it seems like your other points are a common misconception. Im curious as to what information lead you to think that?

Adult rats have a much higher fat content than mice (mice have about 30% less fat), and too much fat is a common problem for many captive animals. Adult rats also have a lower vitamin and mineral content than adult mice. Again, this is sometimes a problem for captive animals, so could be important. Check out the breakdown for yourself Nutrition Feeder Mice | Nutrient Composition of Feeder Animals (http://www.rodentpro.com/qpage_articles_03.asp)
http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/zoo/WholePreyFinal02May29.pdf

And as far as cats go, I agree that its terrible that more people dont take the time to spay or neuter them. But it makes perfect sense to make use of them instead of just euthanizing them. Not saying I could bring myself to kill one though :o

KORBIN5895

11-03-11, 05:45 AM

I bet you could.

millertime89

11-03-11, 10:02 AM

I love teh kittehs as well, but I think if it came down to it I could feed one to a burm, retic, or other large snake.

alessia55

11-03-11, 10:38 AM

I love teh kittehs as well, but I think if it came down to it I could feed one to a burm, retic, or other large snake.

Nooo :( Think about their little "meows" !

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_Qogq3ys5M8M/S_akAEluDvI/AAAAAAAAFj8/kGXI38lP2uA/3517746501_81eba2db04_o.jpg

Gungirl

11-03-11, 10:41 AM

I look at this the same way I approach hunting. If I am killing it for food for myself or my pets I am ok with it. I would only have an issue if parts where being wasted or if it was being tortured. The meow would only affect me as much as the moo a cow makes does and that's not at all.

KORBIN5895

11-03-11, 10:43 AM

That looks diseased.

alessia55

11-03-11, 10:45 AM

Sigh... I guess that's why I could never hunt or kill any animal myself... I have way too soft of a heart... Unless the animal is sick and in pain and would be better of dead, I don't think I could do it, regardless of the animal. Feeding live mice to my adult bp (bc he won't eat anything else, though I'm trying to switch him over as we speak) is hard for me. But teh kittehs have an especially soft spot in my heart :o

alessia55

11-03-11, 10:45 AM

That looks diseased.

You're diseased! That kitteh is so cute! :p hehehe (jk!- on the "you're diseased" part) ;)

millertime89

11-03-11, 07:25 PM

I agree with Kat, if its for me/my pets for food and (almost) nothing goes to waste, I'm ok with it. I'll have no problems feeding rabbits to a full size boa or retic

millertime89

11-03-11, 07:26 PM

and yes, that kitten is adorable and I would love to adopt him/her. I have a white cat right now that is an outdoor cat, when he's clean he's all white. Right now... he's mostly grey and brown, with some black spots and some white blotches.

ZARADOZIA

11-15-11, 01:34 PM

Today was feeding day and I don't know if it was because Sasha was extra hungry or what, but she struck and consumed the RAT faster than any mouse previously. YAY!

She was in striking distance before I even grabbed the rat. I was going to let the rest of the water out of the tub but her body language said I was going to be food if I did. So I grabbed the rat and she struck it as soon as it was close enough. I then let the rest of the water out of the tub and she was a happy girl while she ate. I kept waiting for her to spit it out, but she didn't.

I hope she does this again next time!

***The rat was soaked in hot faucet water with a mouse so the scents could co-mingle.

For those wondering why I am trying to switch Sasha from mice to rats:
Sasha is 4 feet 5 inches long and almost 7 inches in grith at her thickest. 1 meduim rat is the size of 2 xxl mice. A normal feeding of mice for her is 3-4 mice every other week. Once she is fully switched to rats, I can feed her 1 medium or large rat opposed to 4 mice.

alessia55

11-15-11, 02:08 PM

ZARADOZIA

11-16-11, 04:34 AM

Zara thanks for this. I'm still trying to switch Kaybe over from mice (3 in a feeding) to rats and I never thought to thaw a rat under the same water with the mouse for the scents to co-mingle that way. I'll try that and see if it works for me.
So glad she ate that rat for you! I'm sure it's a relief that she's finally switching over and that it might be easier on your wallet

It's not easy and after the colossal fail the first time of trying to switch her I am going to go slow with this.

Oops, I made a mistake, just looked at my calendar and normally I feed her every 7-10 days. Right now while I am trying to switch her, I am waiting 15 days between feedings.

Yesterday I placed the rat and the mouse in a bowl with hot tap (faucet) water for 20 minutes, then replaced that water with fresh hot water, repeated this every 20 minutes for 1.5 hours. My tap water is 120 degrees Fahrenheit. It cools at the rate of .5 degrees per minute if it's in a plastic bowl and 1 degree per 5 min in a ceramic bowl.

Just before I took the rat & mouse to Sasha, I held the rat under running hot water for about 2 minutes to help rinse off some of its odor. I have no idea if this made a difference or not, it is just what I did. I even put gloves on incase I was going to have to scent the rat with the mouse. (I have a deep seeded aversion to touching raw/dead meat of any kind with my bare hands. *Except steak- weird I know)

Sasha didn't even bother smelling them like she did during the last feeding. She was in full-blown "feed me NOW B*" mode.

Hopefully this will help you. The first time I attempted to switch her, she refused to eat for 7 months. But I do not know the exact reasons why she refused to eat. It could have been any number of reasons and/or all combined.

P.S. She also ate the mouse. I purchased both medium and large rats. Medium to start with for the conversion and then she will go to large after she is switched 100%. **Thanks Wayne for the advice:freakedout:

alessia55

11-16-11, 08:58 AM

Sigh. So I waited 14 days rather than the regular 10 days between feeding Kaybe to entice him with a rat (yet again). This time I got the rat from Petco since he likes the Petco mice so much. I'd never thought to buy the rat from Petco, but it makes sense since they use the same bedding etc. so I thought that might make sense. When I presented it to him he seemed somewhat interested, but eventually didn't eat it. Now I get to return the rat and wait another 2 weeks I guess.... Sigh... I'm so tired of playing this game with him... he always wins! :no:

KORBIN5895

11-16-11, 09:13 AM

How can you return the rat? Is it alive?

alessia55

11-16-11, 09:24 AM

How can you return the rat? Is it alive?
Yes, it is well and alive and completely untouched. :) He will go back to Petco today

ZARADOZIA

12-13-11, 08:47 AM

OK So Sasha took a rat all by herself on the feed before last (Nov 15) but refused to eat this last time. I think she is into her winter mode OR she refused because her shed is interfering with her feeding schedule...although it has never been an issue before. We will see what happens after she finishes her shed.

So..strange things...Last night was the first time ever since I have had her that she crawled in her soak tub and is soaking herself! I am amazed and not real sure of what to think about this drastic change in events. She has never used her soak tub before..this is the first time she has ever acted like a normal snake. I'm pretty happy about it! Her humidity levels are spot on and everything.