New owner jitters

[jarich]

Hi All,

So I acquired my first GTP about two months ago. I know they are very skittish when stressed and its not uncommon for them to stop eating for a period of time. I also know that sometimes they just dont feed for awhile and not to get too worried right away. I know that he was feeding every ten days before I got him (on live mice), and that there were no feeding problems prior to me getting him. I have read everything I can get my hands on, including Maxwell's book The More Complete Chondro, so I am pretty sure that i have his set up right. Here is a picture of the enclosure to help with the discussion.

http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff412/jrichholt/gtp2.jpg

His humidity stays around 80-85% during the day and slowly drops to about 65% at night. His temperature has gradients from 78 (cool side, bottom of the tank) up to 84 (cool side top of tank) and a basking spot of 89. He definitely moves around the tank depending on his mood for the temperature.

I havent handled him really since getting him as I didnt want to add to his stress at all.

Like I said, I know they have a tendency to go off food sometimes so Im not stressing about it just yet. However, we are pushing two months now and Im starting to get a little concerned. I tried first to feed him prekilled, he came towards it but instantly lost interest when I wasnt making it 'move' with the tongs. Another time I tried bringing it (prekilled) to him at his perch but he got freaked out, hissed and then proceeded to do a ball python imitation. After that I tried to just let him go after a live mouse. The very first time he eagerly came down from his perch and struck. However he missed and then immediately gave up, going back up to his perch. Ive tried multiple times since then. Again, he exhibited all the hunting signs, came down eagerly to check it out and looked like he was ready to strike, but then got scared by the mouse and went back to his perch. I will keep trying every couple of days, but if anyone can offer some further advice I would appreciate it.

[alessia55]

Don't try too often. Offering food too often can be stressful. Let him go 7-10 days between feeding attempts. If he's not loosing weight, you don't have to worry yet. He'll eventually get hungry enough and eat (assuming there's nothing else wrong with him). Good luck!

[lady_bug87]

you shouldnt try more than once a week if it doesnt take it then freeze it and try again the week after, GTP can be skittish is it in a high traffic area?

[stephanbakir]

Great looking viv, alessia nailed it.

[SkYyaMe1623]

you shouldnt try more than once a week if it doesnt take it then freeze it and try again the week after, GTP can be skittish is it in a high traffic area?
I've heard you shouldn't be refreezing & re-offering the same prey item for sanitary reasons...

[Jenn_06]

Breeding season how old is he?my GTP is 4 years old and will not eat for me... i would wait about 2 weeks then try again(live mice) if he still will not eat wait another 2 weeks, keep feeding live for now until he starts to eat normal again then try to switch to prekilled....

Never refreeze

[jarich]

Great, thanks everyone. I was trying him about every fourth day, so Ill give it about ten days and then try again. He seems to have lost a little weight, but only just a little. To answer your question Ladybug, no, he is in my office so its just me in here typing away all day. And Jenn, Im not sure exactly how old he is but the previous owner said she thought he was about 3 years old.

Thanks again, Ill keep you posted.

[Lankyrob]

My almost 2yr old gtp stoopped eating for two months recently too, he is now pounding f/t rats once again as if nothing has changed. Stick with it and try to get him off live food as soon as you can, would be awful for a beautiful snake like that to get injured by its food. :)

[millertime89]

I've heard you shouldn't be refreezing & re-offering the same prey item for sanitary reasons...

once is ok, after that it starts to lose its nutritional value. Not so sure about the sanitation thing, a snake's stomach acid can dissolve damn near anything.

[Lankyrob]

I wouldnt feed my family food that has been refrozen and i certainly wouldnt feed my animals food that has been refrozen - their food gets treated exactly the same as ours does.

[lady_bug87]

I've heard you shouldn't be refreezing & re-offering the same prey item for sanitary reasons...


Oh I thought she was using fresh killed yea if it was already frzen she can put it in the fridge, feed it to something else or toss it

[millertime89]

I wouldnt feed my family food that has been refrozen and i certainly wouldnt feed my animals food that has been refrozen - their food gets treated exactly the same as ours does.

I make food and refreeze it all the time. I use the weekends to make food for the week, and then reheat it when I want it.

[ZARADOZIA]

It depends on how it is prepared and how long it was left at what warm temp for how long. Cooking food and then immediately freezing it is fine [human food]. That food can be thawed, heated, and consumed. Refreezing it can be dangerous, especially if the temps were not brought above 165 degrees for a few minutes (Time enough to kill bacteria).

With F/T rats/mice, I would be scared to do this because you thaw (normally) in warm water not much higher than 120F for 1-2 hours. That isn't hot enough to kill any bacteria. Then it sits out for? 20-30 min?
A bacterium generally doubles its size every 20 minutes.

The bottom line is to keep an eye on the time. I don’t refreeze F/T but that’s me. I also wear gloves when I am preparing meat for dinner…lol

For more in depth info:
Basics for Handling Food Safely (http://www.fsis.usda.gov/Fact_Sheets/Basics_for_Handling_Food_Safely/index.asp#8)
Bacteria and Foodborne Illness - National Digestive Diseases Information Clearinghouse (http://digestive.niddk.nih.gov/ddiseases/pubs/bacteria/)

[Lankyrob]

I make food and refreeze it all the time. I use the weekends to make food for the week, and then reheat it when I want it.


But if you defrosted it would you then refreeze it to eat at a later date.

In effect what you are doing with your family food is the same as we do with our snake food - we prepare it then freeze it. The issue comes with defrosting and then refreezing it. :)

[jarich]

This is true especially for meat. Freezing doesnt kill many bacteria, it just slows them dramatically. So when you thaw it, they start producing again. This is especially true of bacteria that were in the stomach and intestines of the mice/rats. By the time you thaw them a second time you are really pushing it with the bacterial growth. Also, the freezing process turns water in the cells into ice crystals, which are incredibly damaging to the cell walls in animals. Thats why when you thaw meat out you notice it is very watery compared to its fresh counterpart. Freezing it again can leave you with a gross watery mess of a feeder animal. And lastly, freezing meat causes fat to oxidize; repeated freezing can make the fat in the animal turn rancid.

[millertime89]

But if you defrosted it would you then refreeze it to eat at a later date.

In effect what you are doing with your family food is the same as we do with our snake food - we prepare it then freeze it. The issue comes with defrosting and then refreezing it. :)

I've done that too. However the difference comes when I reheat it, I do make sure its cooked thoroughly. Which is the argument I think against doing it for our pets.

[Teckdragon]

Slightly offtopic here, but you're going to want to add at least 2 more branches/perches. Your snake needs to be able to thermoregulate and will often move to a lower branch to "hunt."

Also, what time of the day are you attempting to feed? Is it right at dusk when the animal is waking up?

[jarich]

At first I didnt try to feed during dusk, as the previous owner said she fed it during the day. The last couple times though I waited until just after the lights went out.

As far as the thermoregulation goes, he does that a lot with his movements. Ill try to put in another perch though. As it stands he moves around throughout the day from perch to perch, and side to side, and even comes down occasionally to lay on the ground. (my animal room has a lot of windows so during a sunny afternoon the ambient temp can rise by as much as 4 degrees). Im not sure if it comes out in the picture as much but the one large perch is purposely on an angle so that from side to side there is a good temp gradient.

[Teckdragon]

The fact that your animal is active during the day is concerning. GTP's are generally nocturnal. It could be indicative that you don't have enough of a gradient in your enclosure.

[Gungirl]

I agree with Techdragon. Your GTP shouldn't be all over the place during the day. I think mine will move a tiny bit once over the day but at night he roams around quite a bit and then around 3am he goes back to his fav spot.

[lady_bug87]

Mine just changes the direction of her head lol she starts backwards then half way through the day her head is facing forward or if we make a lot of noise she tucks her head inside her coils

[jarich]

Sorry, I guess I communicated that poorly. He usually moves once or twice a day, and it seems to be because of the temperature gradient. He will usually stay on the highest perch until mid afternoon, at which time I think the temperature gets a little too warm for his preferences. (it gets up to about 93) He then will come down to one of the lower perches or even sometimes all the way down to the ground. Often he will then go back up to the higher perch towards evening. I may be wrong about the gradient but the tank is large and there seems to be a good gradient of temperatures from perch to perch and side to side. The highest perch is directly under the light, so gets up to about 93. The second perch is about 85 on the warm side and 82 on the cool side. The ground is about 78 on the warm side and 76 on the cool side. Does this seem like a reasonable gradient or should I change this?

[Gungirl]

Do you have your heat source on a thermostat? My temps never change more than 1 degree.. I have thermostats set to the temp and they stay there.

[jarich]

The only heat source are the lights, which are on timers. I keep the room itself at 76, which is thermostat controlled so thats constant. The change in temp comes from the sun streaming into the room, so its a natural cycle that gradually increases throughout the day.

[Gungirl]

I would never run any heat source without a thermostat. You are going to freeze or cook your GTP...

[jarich]

Im not sure I see the point of running a light on a thermostat. Unlike a heat tape or pad, it cant possibly cook anything as it can only go on or off (it cant surge or increase like other heat sources). If its on, its on, and I know the top temp it gets to while on. If it does go out (as bulbs do sometimes) the coolest the tank could get is 76-78, which is acceptable for GTPs. Is there a different variable Im not thinking of?

[millertime89]

Im not sure I see the point of running a light on a thermostat. Unlike a heat tape or pad, it cant possibly cook anything

WRONG. Check the temp on your bulb when it first turns on, then check it again 10 minutes later and tell me that sucker isn't hot.

[youngster]

Kyle is right. Many pet specified bulbs can be put on a thermostat and be varied. I have my baby corn on an infrared and I can change the wattage output with the thermo.

[ladyjustice33]

A friend of mine had a GTP that went off food for a while. He finally put a little chic in there and wham, he went right for it!! Glad I wasn't there, chics are sooo cute! He has finally gotten him on f/t rodents and now picks up f/t chics and gives him one every so often.

[jarich]

Ok yes, I shouldve been more specific in my wording, but look at the context of the conversation. Yes a bulb warms up, and yes, if you are not aware of the maximum temperature that is reached under the bulb you should not put your reptile anywhere near it. However, neither of those things was what we were talking about here. I was trying to make the point that unlike a heat tape or pad, there is no worry that the bulb will have a surge or malfunction and therefore somehow grossly increase in temperature. A light bulb is, itself, a sort of fuse (100 watt, 75 watt, etc). Unlike a heat tape or pad, if it gets pushed beyond its output it will immediately burn out, not increase the temperature. In fact, you bring up a good point for the opposite argument Youngster. The thermostat your using does have the capacity to malfunction, and therefore cook your reptile, if you are using it to limit your bulbs output. (its very unlikely of course, but the possibility does exist) Merely moving it to the distance away from your reptile's basking spot that achieves the desired temperature would technically be a safer way of regulating this. As you have it set up with your infrared now a malfunction could occur and increase the wattage of your bulb, therefore cooking your herp. Again, the possibility of a thermostat going haywire is very very slim, so Im not saying anyone should remove them. Merely if you are wanting the maximum temperature a bulb reaches, like in this situation, I dont see the point of the thermostat.

[youngster]

The whole point of a thermostat is to regulate a specified temperature. You put a probe in the enclosure that measures the temp and you set the temperature on your thermostat. If the ambient temperature changes the thermo rights itself so that it doesn't get too hot and burn the snake, or too cold and freeze your snake. That's what I was talking about. Not necessarily burning your snake but just regulating a set temp.

[jarich]

Youre absolutely right Youngster, and Im sorry if it seemed like I was disagreeing with you in concept. I was just shaping your comment to be applicable to this particular thread and discussion.

[youngster]

Not at all, everyone here is just trying to help and we rarely get offended. :)

[lady_bug87]

Ok I don't have a thermostat what I did before putting my gtp in her tank is I left the bulb on for 3h and took the temperature directly under it I then went back and checked 3h after that and 3h after that then I arranged my perches so that the temperature was what I wanted for that particular spot and voila my tank was done

Then when I got my monsoon I arranged my nozzles so that wherever she coiled she would get some spray so she would be able to drink unless

[Lankyrob]

When everything is going well then thermostats can seem pointless but they are there for when things dont go right. If there is a sudden temperature change and you arent around to sort things out then the snake will be affected detrimentally whereas the thermostat will either keep the bulb on longer or switch it off. Also if there is a fault happens with the bulb and it suddenly gets over heated then the thermostat will switch it off before the snake gets injured from overheating.