View Full Version : pics of my dead corn... ideas?
daddy and son
10-22-11, 05:02 PM
Hi all, this is a follow up on my earlier post about the feeding problem. Fred took quite a while in eating his pinkie. The pinkie was frozen so there wasn't a fight to the finish. He took it down head first. There was what looked almost like a scab on the top of his head. No blood or anything, just a small (about 2-3 mm) rough spot. I took a few pics to post. I tried getting one as close as I could of the inside of his mouth. There was a small blood spot, like a scratch on the roof of his mouth. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. As most of you know, I'm new to this and trying to learn as I go. I just hope I didn't do something wrong on this one.
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg20/hillcat2008/PA220126.jpg
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg20/hillcat2008/PA220125.jpg
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg20/hillcat2008/PA220127.jpg
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg20/hillcat2008/PA220128.jpg
millertime89
10-22-11, 05:12 PM
I'm really sorry man, that sucks, the rough spot on the top of his made just be stuck shed. Just my opinion, but that prey item may have been too big for him and he choked on it. that's a pretty large bulge.
sassy_snake_lady
10-22-11, 05:17 PM
That looks like a very big feeding bump from a pinky.
Are they definitely pinkies you are feeding?
millertime89
10-22-11, 05:19 PM
did you perhaps mean rat pinkies? which are more correctly called pups?
daddy and son
10-22-11, 05:19 PM
Yup. Pink, no hair, eyes still closed.
daddy and son
10-22-11, 05:21 PM
did you perhaps mean rat pinkies? which are more correctly called pups?
Well, I told the lady at the pet store I needed pinkie mice. and the receipt said mice. I'm assuming they know the difference. What I fed was about 1 1/4 in long (not including the tail) and about 1/2 in across. It's the same size I fed a week ago that Fred ate with no problems.
sassy_snake_lady
10-22-11, 05:21 PM
Yup. Pink, no hair, eyes still closed.
Reason I ask is I have been feeding some non feeding hatchlings weighing just 6g and even a whole pinky didn't leave a bump like that in them.
Gungirl
10-22-11, 05:22 PM
That food bump is mighty large for that little guy... IDK what else would have caused this.
KORBIN5895
10-22-11, 05:24 PM
But was it a mouse pinkie or rat pup? Both are pinks and hairless. Sorry for your loss. I was very upset when I lost my corn snake. Good luck with the other 2.
sassy_snake_lady
10-22-11, 05:24 PM
Just for reference, this is a 12g corn eating a mouse pinky.
http://i1237.photobucket.com/albums/ff471/CodyBoo2/DSCF9684.jpg
He is eating 2 of these right now per feed and still doesn't have a bump that big. I don't know if the prey size could have caused a problem for your corn but it is bigger than I have seen before.
RegenerationRep
10-22-11, 05:31 PM
I'm fairly certain this is because of feeding it a prey item to large for it. Make sure you see what your getting and use good judgement on weather or not the snake can eat it without a problem
millertime89
10-22-11, 05:31 PM
can you post a picture of him next to something like a quarter for reference and also place one of the pinkies in the picture as well? Pet stores aren't the most knowledgeable places in the world. I know my local one has both rat and mice labelled as pinkies and are rung up the same on occasion.
daddy and son
10-22-11, 05:39 PM
I'll try and see if I can get 1 more pic. The batteries died on my camera. For what it's worth, I took the pics after I put him in the refrigerator. The breeder wants to see it too, so I'm trying to keep it in decent shape. The pinkie I fed is about the same size as the one in sassy's pic above.
millertime89
10-22-11, 05:42 PM
one more pic won't hurt it. That bump is just abnormally large.
daddy and son
10-22-11, 05:48 PM
Here's a pic next to a quarter for size reference
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg20/hillcat2008/PA220129.jpg
millertime89
10-22-11, 05:50 PM
whoa, yeah, too big, your guy is tiny.
sassy_snake_lady
10-22-11, 05:54 PM
Here's a pic next to a quarter for size reference
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg20/hillcat2008/PA220129.jpg
I don't know how big a quater is lol sorry.
Do you have a pic of the pinkies you were sold? I'm still not sure if it was a pinky. Like I said before I had a tiny 6g corn who still managed a pinky and it didn't leave a bump anywhere near that size.
Snakefood
10-22-11, 06:03 PM
for reference here is a pic of a rat pinkie beside a mouse pinkie on 1/4" graph paper. I put 2 angles as I find thier faces are totally different. might help you figure out what they sold you.
15031
15032
millertime89
10-22-11, 06:04 PM
here's a size comparison of a mouse's growth in relation to a quarter
Day By Day Pictures of Baby Mice Compared to a Quarter (http://www.thefunmouse.com/info/daybydaybabies.cfm)
The US quarter dollar coin is 0.955 inches (or 24.26 mm) in diameter.
(from ask.com)
lady_bug87
10-22-11, 06:05 PM
pinkies are so cute lol
The pinkie was frozen so there wasn't a fight to the finish.
Heywait.. was the pinky thawed?? and indeed its very big :s
millertime89
10-22-11, 06:12 PM
Heywait.. was the pinky thawed?? and indeed its very big :s
been covered, yes.
lady_bug87
10-22-11, 06:17 PM
I'm leaning towards the fact that it was either a humungo mouse pink or the pet store screwed up and a rat pup got mixed in with the rest of the mice or they gave him pain ol' rat pups that's why I hesitate to feed my animals meals that seem thicker than they are so I sometimes will go with the smaller meal just in case :S
either way its sucky :/
millertime89
10-22-11, 06:19 PM
once the breeder is done checking him out, take him into the vet and get an autopsy done, once the food item is out, if its clearly a rat pup and not a mouse pinkie, you can hold the pet store liable for the death of your pet.
lady_bug87
10-22-11, 06:20 PM
once the breeder is done checking him out, take him into the vet and get an autopsy done, once the food item is out, if its clearly a rat pup and not a mouse pinkie, you can hold the pet store liable for the death of your pet.
at this point couldnt he get the food item out himself? I mean what extra harm can he do?
millertime89
10-22-11, 06:22 PM
he could, if he didn't want to or didn't have the proper tools, he could take it to the vet
lady_bug87
10-22-11, 06:24 PM
its true I suppose but a sharp knife could do the trick or pressing on it and 'milking' it out could work
millertime89
10-22-11, 06:39 PM
I think milking it would be difficult with the teeth, but a razor blade or exacto knife would work, or a very sharp knife and being very careful
lady_bug87
10-22-11, 06:43 PM
hmm true that would be of course if the owner is curious as to what he has inside there and if it is a pup instead of a pink he really shouldn't blame himself it happens but I would take the food item out, and either take it to the pet store with the receipt and demand an explanation as to why if it IS a pup WHY is it marked as a pinkie and if its a huge pinky why wasnt it sorted as a fuzzy
If handlers are really new at reptiles its really really easy to mix the 2 up.
millertime89
10-22-11, 06:47 PM
yeah, and if it was a huge pinkie that should've been sorted as a fuzzy or a rat pup, then he has recourse with the pet store.
OP, sorry we're discussing it like this, I know its hard, but we really are trying to help and in no way are we blaming you.
daddy and son
10-22-11, 06:55 PM
Thanks everyone! The breeder I got it from is a herpetologist and wants to do an autopsy on it. That's why he asked me to freeze it til he can get it from me. based on the pics above, it looked like a pinkie mouse. And yeah, I thawed 3, for about 4 hrs in warm water. They were almost warm to the touch and very pliable, so I'm sure they were well thawed. Once he does the autopsy, and we get the undigested food, I'll look at it and see what I have for sure.
millertime89
10-22-11, 07:06 PM
sounds good, keep us posted.
lady_bug87
10-22-11, 07:14 PM
and if it turns out to be a rat pup then take it to the store and raise serious hell
daddy and son
10-22-11, 07:19 PM
and if it turns out to be a rat pup then take it to the store and raise serious hell
OH YEAH! You can bet on that one.
millertime89
10-22-11, 07:21 PM
how's your son taking it?
lady_bug87
10-22-11, 07:26 PM
but seriously if that is the case or if the pink was really big and it should have been classified as a fuzzy please dont blame yourself, especially if its a large pink or even a fuzzy that was mislabeled
daddy and son
10-22-11, 07:30 PM
Thanks Lady.
Daniel's doing pretty well with it. He was upset, but I promised him we'll get a new one soon. Plus he still has the other 2 to take care of. For a 7 year old, he's pretty mature.
lady_bug87
10-22-11, 07:34 PM
sounds like it, sometimes things just happen if you buy feeders from the same place in the future do a size check while you're in the store, if something seems off, question it if they wont listen then swap out the one you don't like and ask for a new one
daddy and son
10-22-11, 07:39 PM
I have an idea if anyone is willing to let me do it. I have some pics I took earlier today of all 3 snakes. They're on my dumb phone (as opposed to a smart phone) I can't get them to my computer, but if anyone can receive a text then post the pics, I can text it to you. Send me a PM with your cell # to text to. Thanks!
millertime89
10-22-11, 07:47 PM
that's good, let him help decide what to get next, go to an expo and give him a price and tell him to find something he likes under that price, just make sure you talk with the breeder to make sure its something you guys can manage. You can find all sorts of cool looking corns and other colubrids for good prices (don't be afraid to haggle a bit) and healthy, high quality ball pythons for cheap.
Snakefood
10-22-11, 07:50 PM
Thanks Lady.
Daniel's doing pretty well with it. He was upset, but I promised him we'll get a new one soon. Plus he still has the other 2 to take care of. For a 7 year old, he's pretty mature.
That's good to hear, I'm glad he's working through the loss!!
millertime89
10-22-11, 08:00 PM
here's a couple more he sent me. They're so tiny and cute! The first one is the one that died.
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6225/6271200682_3eaaf51c2b_b.jpg
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6055/6270673281_652fe7dc0d_b.jpg
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6096/6270676123_93488715ac_b.jpg
totheend
10-22-11, 08:16 PM
I think that the food item may have been a little on the large size. But....it is hard to tell too when it isn't down all the way. I don't think that is what killed him though. Usually if a snake can get it in their mouth, they can get it down no problem. But, if too large, they will regurge.
Sometimes things happen. Snakes are not like other animals. If they are sick, you often don't know until it is too late.
So sorry for your loss.
alessia55
10-22-11, 08:33 PM
So sorry for your loss. I hope you figure out what was the real cause of it soon. I'm glad your son is handling it well. If it's the prey size that killed the little snake, I really hope the pet store owns up to it. Best of luck to you... And please keep us posted.
I was thinking the same thing as totheend.
lady_bug87
10-22-11, 08:35 PM
I was thinking the same thing as totheend.
what if it was trying to regurge and it got stuck?
If he got it down then I don't think it would have gotten stuck trying to regurge.
lady_bug87
10-22-11, 08:45 PM
If he got it down then I don't think it would have gotten stuck trying to regurge.
hmm I didnt think of that, great point. Regardless I am interested to see what it swallowed
Yea, me too. This whole thing has me scratching my head. I have 21 snakes with 9 of them being corns. They range in size from little 2 month olds to pretty good size 2 year olds and I have never had anything like this happen.
lady_bug87
10-22-11, 08:49 PM
even if it was an underlying problem (so not the food size that is to blame) and it turns out that the food was a fuzzy mouse or a smaller rat pup that got confused for a pinkie if I were the OP I would demand an explanation, I have a 5mos old GTP who's been feeding on pinks since birth and s/he has NEVER had a lump that big. In fact she had her first double pink meal last week and the bump STILL wasn't that big
Yea, but corns can handle much larger meals in comparison to their girth than most pythons can.
Except for carpet pythons. Sorry for posting twice, I accidentaly hit the post button.
daddy and son
10-22-11, 09:11 PM
Thanks for the kind words and input everyone. Once I find out more, I'll post it here. And I truly appreciate everyone being non-judgmental. Instead of finger pointing, you guys have been supportive and I appreciate that. Being new to this, it's still a learning experience for me.
CK SandBoas
10-22-11, 09:17 PM
I am so sorry for your loss:(
lady_bug87
10-22-11, 09:18 PM
Thanks for the kind words and input everyone. Once I find out more, I'll post it here. And I truly appreciate everyone being non-judgmental. Instead of finger pointing, you guys have been supportive and I appreciate that. Being new to this, it's still a learning experience for me.
just hang in there! You're doing fine, like we all said, sometimes **** happens.
No problem, that's what we are here for. It's still a learning experience for even the most experienced hobbyist.
RegenerationRep
10-22-11, 09:49 PM
I think its really awesome that your being so hands on and learning with your son about snakes. Not everybody does that and its refreshing to see it.
Hope your other guys do fine and am waiting to hear about your autopsy
bigsnakegirl785
10-22-11, 11:09 PM
The only thing I can think of it's not the food that did it, something caused his stomach to bloat and he died from that. I don't know if that happens w/ snakes, but that would explain the size of the bulge if the food didn't make it.
Nismo89
10-22-11, 11:19 PM
Thats really sad :/ I'm sorry for your loss
Gungirl
10-23-11, 07:10 AM
No matter the cause of the death next time you are feeding these small guys try and keep the prey size smaller. I even cut pinks in half for my corn when he was 6grams in weight. The place I was getting my pinkies from where selling me VERY large pinks. So just keep a close eye on the size of them compared to the snake. Its very easy to cut a frozen pink in half to help out our scaled friends. You can also always feed it both halfs, better safe than sorry.
I as I said before..... I am so sorry for you and your sons experience.
infernalis
10-23-11, 07:17 AM
My sincere condolences, Must have been difficult for the little guy to have to see this.
What I have found is that many pet stores that sell three pinkies in a pouch (Gourmet rodent) is the size varies from pink to pink. (Unsorted)
I order mine from a company that sells them like this.
XS = Extra small (Newborn runts)
S = Small
M = Medium
L = Large
I always order a few hundred XS for my baby snakes.
alessia55
10-23-11, 07:23 AM
I used to buy from Petco the Gourmet Rodent Wayne is talking about. The pinkies were always pretty much the same size, but once you moved up to hoppers and fuzzies they would definitely vary in size. I used to feel the bag to guesstimate what was in there.
Lankyrob
10-23-11, 11:10 AM
Not sure how i missed this yesterday, very sorry for your loss, always hard to lose an animal.
I would say that lump is slightly large but not overly so, my baby corns that i got last year were easily eating prey 2x if not 2.5 times thier girth and have done so for over a year now with no issues at all with their health.
All my snakes eat prey that i try to guestimate is 2x their girth, personally i think it could be something else that killed the snake that may have been triggered by the feeding but was not actually the prey size itself.
Will watch this thread with interest for the conclusion of the autopsy.
lady_bug87
10-23-11, 11:12 AM
Not sure how i missed this yesterday, very sorry for your loss, always hard to lose an animal.
I would say that lump is slightly large but not overly so, my baby corns that i got last year were easily eating prey 2x if not 2.5 times thier girth and have done so for over a year now with no issues at all with their health.
All my snakes eat prey that i try to guestimate is 2x their girth, personally i think it could be something else that killed the snake that may have been triggered by the feeding but was not actually the prey size itself.
Will watch this thread with interest for the conclusion of the autopsy.
there's another thread as well about this particular feeding where the poor thing was having a hard time swallowing
Can I post a link to another forum that has a mouse rat size chart?
infernalis
10-23-11, 11:17 AM
Can I post a link to another forum that has a mouse rat size chart?
yes...........
Thanks :)
Mouse/Rat size chart..... - Reptile Forums (http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/feeder/16801-mouse-rat-size-chart.html)
totheend
10-23-11, 01:26 PM
there's another thread as well about this particular feeding where the poor thing was having a hard time swallowing
Which leads me to believe that it had nothing to do with prey size! That little corn sounds like he has had issues right from the start. If they can fit it in their mouths they can get it down. They will not die from slightly too large of a food item. We all keep focusing on the size of food....
lady_bug87
10-23-11, 01:32 PM
yes I am aware of that and I agree its a great point but now I'm curious as to what it was
totheend
10-23-11, 01:36 PM
We are all curious. I however, don't think we will ever know what killed this little guy. Some just aren't meant to survive.
daddy and son
10-23-11, 04:35 PM
I had a look at the chart. i'd say these were closer to fuzzy than pinky. every bit of an inch and probably a touch over. Gonna try and review the whole situation, see if anyone has any ideas. Fred took about 20 minutes before he actually went after his mouse. The other 2 went straight after their's. There was a rough spot on top of his head, sort of like a scab, about 3 mm long and 2 mm wide. I don't know if I mentioned it before, but a couple of times before he went for his mouse he had his mouth open wide, like he was yawning. Don't know if that's significant or not. Once he grabbed his mouse, it took him probably about 30 minutes to get it all the way into his mouth. The mouse was frozen, well thawed and slightly warmed. I looked in my 2 books about corns and didn't see anything under illnesses or anything similar to what he was doing.
Daniel is a little more upset today, he says it's his fault Fred died because "He was my snake and I'm responsible for him". Hard to explain to a 7 year old boy that some things are beyond his control and even when he does his best, things happen.
infernalis
10-23-11, 04:42 PM
Those of us who deal with hundreds of snakes call this "Failure to Thrive" it's a cold / heartbreaking aspect of what we all do.
Unfortunately a youngster had to experience it.
Jenn_06
10-23-11, 04:49 PM
you can go here Buy Frozen Feeder Animals Online: SALE Rats, Mice, Rabbits (http://www.rodentpro.com/catalog.asp) and see the sizes too they have the rats and mice next to a quarter. i dont think it was the size of the food that kill it had to be something else, it might had something wrong with it since it hatched and just now killed it...sorry for your son loss its hard on kids
Snakefood
10-23-11, 04:52 PM
aww, give Daniel a sqeeze from us!! Poor little guy. When mamma's dog died, we told our son she died and went to the rainbow bridge to play with all the other dogs!! He was only 3 when Sweet-Pea passed away.
lady_bug87
10-23-11, 05:50 PM
I had a look at the chart. i'd say these were closer to fuzzy than pinky. every bit of an inch and probably a touch over. Gonna try and review the whole situation, see if anyone has any ideas. Fred took about 20 minutes before he actually went after his mouse. The other 2 went straight after their's. There was a rough spot on top of his head, sort of like a scab, about 3 mm long and 2 mm wide. I don't know if I mentioned it before, but a couple of times before he went for his mouse he had his mouth open wide, like he was yawning. Don't know if that's significant or not. Once he grabbed his mouse, it took him probably about 30 minutes to get it all the way into his mouth. The mouse was frozen, well thawed and slightly warmed. I looked in my 2 books about corns and didn't see anything under illnesses or anything similar to what he was doing.
Daniel is a little more upset today, he says it's his fault Fred died because "He was my snake and I'm responsible for him". Hard to explain to a 7 year old boy that some things are beyond his control and even when he does his best, things happen.
aw poor kid. He sounds so sweet,
Lankyrob
10-23-11, 05:53 PM
Havent lookedat the chart but i have seen many many pinkies over an inch long, i wouldnt class them as fuzzies until they aree showing fur no matter their size.
jaleely
10-23-11, 11:54 PM
Side question: How would the petstore be held liable for someone feeding a pet food that's too large for the pet to consume in a healthy manner? I don't really think that's true. I mean, not trying to sound rude, but unless you brought the snake into their store and they are the ones that fed it physically, there's nothing to hold them liable for. They just sold the food. Technically then anyone buying anything there could sue them for their dog being over-fed, or something like that.
I'm sorry it happened though.
millertime89
10-24-11, 12:06 AM
Side question: How would the petstore be held liable for someone feeding a pet food that's too large for the pet to consume in a healthy manner? I don't really think that's true. I mean, not trying to sound rude, but unless you brought the snake into their store and they are the ones that fed it physically, there's nothing to hold them liable for. They just sold the food. Technically then anyone buying anything there could sue them for their dog being over-fed, or something like that.
I'm sorry it happened though.
if you walked in and said "I want to buy a pinkie mouse for my snake" and they sold you a rat fuzzie that's clearly too large, they are the "experts" and can be held liable. They "should" know what the difference is and pet owners often go to them for advice.
edit: or say you walked in and told them "my vet told me to get cat food for a diabetic cat" and they hand you a bag of food that does the opposite of what it should, and your cat dies as a result of the change, then its their fault.
jaleely
10-24-11, 12:17 AM
I politely disagree. : ) They're just petstore workers. I'd look it up online, or get the item i needed from my vet. I know hubby and I researched a long time before getting out first snake. I'd take advice from anyone with a grain of salt, even if they had a PHD or something though *lol*
Hey another side note...I remember this post from the other day...
http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/epicrates/88615-sad-news.html
Snakesitter also noticed a patch of something on their snakes head, and turns out their snake had a RI. Maybe it's some kind of weird infection thing.
edited: I mean also if my needed diabetic food, i mean, i can read labels! LOL plus the vet would tell you. But I digress..the store shouldn't be selling people rat pinkies if they're asking for mouse pinkies, but i mean, you can see the size difference. Think how many lawsuits would be out there (we Americans are famous for that though) if someone sued every time a mistake was made. I mean you're not just going to blindly feed your kid whatever the grocer tells you to. I don't think a snake death because of food size would hold up in court.
KORBIN5895
10-24-11, 06:27 AM
Ahhhh. But were not talking about court. Were are talking about him going into the pet store at the busiest time of the week( like Saturday afternoon) and raising such a ruckus that EVERYONE hears about these idiots that killed his poor 7 year old sons snake. Way better results than court.
KORBIN5895
10-24-11, 06:32 AM
I am point to the pet store workers as idiots.
totheend
10-24-11, 06:50 AM
Ahhhh. But were not talking about court. Were are talking about him going into the pet store at the busiest time of the week( like Saturday afternoon) and raising such a ruckus that EVERYONE hears about these idiots that killed his poor 7 year old sons snake. Way better results than court.
Except for the size of the food isn't what killed the snake!
KORBIN5895
10-24-11, 08:29 AM
I get that. But most pet store workers are high-school kids and the management is not very knowledgeable. So if you raise enough of a commotion the will probably do something. All he has to do is what the tabloids do. Tell people that what you are telling them is the truth. We LIKE to beloved what we are told.
totheend
10-24-11, 08:41 AM
But what do you expect? They are people making minimum wage, not paid to care. Some will care and be knowledgeable and some won't. It truly is buyer beware! You need to be educated on your animals and their requirements and needs. Don't trust some kid who doesn't give a rats @$$. I mean if the pet stores were legally responsible for everything they said or sold to a customer, they would spend all day everyday in court.
"did you perhaps mean rat pinkies? which are more correctly called pups?"
"But was it a mouse pinkie or rat pup? Both are pinks and hairless"
Lol.
More bad info.
A rat pink IS NOT more commonly called a pup.
A rat pink is called a rat pink (~3-7g).
A rat PUP is larger than a fuzzy rat (~8-14g).
Rat pups are in the ~15-20g range right before hopper and have plenty of fur.
I know I'm late to this thread, but that snake died because it was fed too large a meal.
I'm also really curious why so many of you are trying to hold the store responsible for selling a food item that was too large?
That feeder item was clearly way too large for that corn, but the owner is 100% responsible for FEEDING IT!!
Come on people, lets call a spade a spade!
millertime89
10-24-11, 10:55 AM
Lol.
More bad info.
A rat pink IS NOT more commonly called a pup.
A rat pink is called a rat pink (~3-7g).
A rat PUP is larger than a fuzzy rat (~8-14g).
Rat pups are in the ~15-20g range right before hopper and have plenty of fur.
I know I'm late to this thread, but that snake died because it was fed too large a meal.
I'm also really curious why so many of you are trying to hold the store responsible for selling a food item that was too large?
That feeder item was clearly way too large for that corn, but the owner is 100% responsible for FEEDING IT!!
Come on people, lets call a spade a spade!
I've been told differently several times on this very forum regarding the pup vs. pink thing.
Also late on this buy Mkyee sumed it up. The one at fault is the owner for feeding WAY to large of a prey item, not insulting you I'm just not going to dodge the truth. Yes it's crapy what happens but by blaming others is ridicules. A rat pink is definitely not a pup, a simple web search will prove that fact.
Sorry for your lost, be more alert while feeding.
I've been told differently several times on this very forum regarding the pup vs. pink thing.
You have been misinformed, possibly over on the other side of the ocean they are listed differently. Canada/US, a rat pink is 1-5 days and pups are 15-20
lady_bug87
10-24-11, 12:33 PM
I still think the store people should do a better job sorting stuff... because some people just dont know
millertime89
10-24-11, 12:40 PM
I still think the store people should do a better job sorting stuff... because some people just dont know
this is what I'm getting at.
dnhhensley07
10-24-11, 02:28 PM
My snake guy says if it looks like they swallowed a foot ball, then the meal is too big! it looks like that is the case here. Such a small snake...
daddy and son
10-24-11, 04:20 PM
Ok, let's put this all to rest. I met with the breeder today along with my physiology professor from college. The professor is also a veterinarian. Dr. Juen let us bring Fred in and helped us with the disection. 1. The food was in fact a pinkie mouse and the right size for the snake. The reason it looked so much larger is that the picture was taken after the snake had been dead been chilling in the freezer. The tissues shrunk around it. making the pinkie look out of place.
2. He (Dr. Juen) said it appears as through there was a small laceration along the esophogus, most likely caused by a claw scraping during ingestion. He said that is about 90% probability the cause of death. He said it's a 1,000 to 1 shot of something like that happening, especially with a dead pinkie, but when he looked at it under a magnifying glass, before moving anything around, we could see a small claw actually hung in it's throat.
So, it was just a flukey deal that no one could have foreseen or avoided.
well i'm glad you have got that cleared up. Sorry that this happened :(
Snakefood
10-24-11, 05:19 PM
wow!!!! doesn't it suck when the "odds" go against you and yours!!! I am sorry ofr your loss and having a son of my own, my heart goes out to your son.
But isn't it good to know what happened, and to know it was "just one of those things"
ZARADOZIA
10-24-11, 05:48 PM
Wow, Poor baby boy. At least he can be reassured that it was beyond his control. And if he is still concerned about it happening again, you can always cut the feet off the next pinkies.
I remove the heads and legs of the baby chics I use because I am paranoid about this happening. My husband laughs at me and said the first time he saw me doing this, "You know, to be so preppy, sometimes you are so redneck!" (God I love that man!)
I do the same to mice if the claws feel sharp. (Yes, I know, I am anal...lol)
Snakefood
10-24-11, 05:49 PM
apparently not anal, as we all just learned what can happen even with KILLED PREY!!
millertime89
10-24-11, 06:57 PM
wow what are the odds. If I were you I wouldn't go to the casinos anytime soon. At least you know what happened now. Once again, really sorry for your loss.
alessia55
10-24-11, 07:06 PM
You must be relieved that it was the little claw and not the size of the prey or anything else like that, despite how horrible it is that it happened at all. Hopefully your son feels better knowing "for sure" that it wasn't his fault. You still have two little corn snakes to take care of, and I'm sure we're all looking forward to seeing them grow :) It might not be a bad idea to clip the claws of the pinkies in the future though. I do this if I notice any oddly long claws on any of the prey I feed my snakes. Thanks for keeping us posted!
daddy and son
10-24-11, 08:29 PM
Thanks everyone. Yeah, it's good to know that no one, not me, not the pet store, no one was at fault. Just a bad bit of luck. From now on, dinner gets a manicure first!
Daniel is feeling better about it too. He still misses Fred, but he still has muffy and butthead to take care of.
millertime89
10-24-11, 08:40 PM
lol, those names are awesome. Are you gonna get a Fred 2.0?
daddy and son
10-24-11, 09:56 PM
Not sure on that. thats up to the kid. This is his project, I'm just lending fatherly guidance.
jaleely
10-25-11, 12:07 AM
korbin..lol well a ruckus definitely gets attention in a store! hehe
OKay, so it was a claw?? How bizarre! I don't think I had ever thought of that happening. I think i'll be paying attention to that from now on. We soak our snake food in water for about a half hour to an hour, depending on the size, how many etc.,...I hope the nails have been softening in the water.
ZARADOZIA
10-25-11, 04:13 AM
The only reason I even thought about removing the feet is because I was cut by one when dividing them into weekly dinner bags. If I hadn't been cut, I don't think I would have thought about it.
Lankyrob
10-25-11, 04:33 AM
Man that is a freaky accident, thankful for your and your sons sake that it wasnt in any way your fault. I have never considered dead prey being a risk to a snake like that (maybe older snakes have stronger oesophagus's???)
At least now you can move on and enjoy the other two.
He (Dr. Juen) said it appears as through there was a small laceration along the esophogus, most likely caused by a claw scraping during ingestion""
OMG!!!!! that "vet" is an absolute moron. Pinky mice don't have claws or anything sharp that can harm a snake.
Christ we're surrounded by stupid people!!!
Common effin' sense people!!!
Gungirl
10-25-11, 09:51 AM
OMG!!!!! that "vet" is an absolute moron. Pinky mice don't have claws or anything sharp that can harm a snake.
Christ we're surrounded by stupid people!!!
Common effin' sense people!!!
I'm liking you more and more....
I agree with Mykee... thats a lame excuse for why it passed away.
lady_bug87
10-25-11, 09:58 AM
yea that doesnt seem right to me either... I can see in larger prey that 'could' be an issue but pinkies?
sassy_snake_lady
10-25-11, 10:20 AM
OMG!!!!! that "vet" is an absolute moron. Pinky mice don't have claws or anything sharp that can harm a snake.
Christ we're surrounded by stupid people!!!
Common effin' sense people!!!
This ^^
I breed mice for my snakes and a pinky claw causing enough damage to kill a young snake??? Please!
lady_bug87
10-25-11, 10:30 AM
I guess we will never know. Poor little guy
lady_bug87
10-25-11, 10:32 AM
wait a second.... they were all housed together at one point right?
what if the scabbing and the tear was caused not by food or infection but by a fight?
we all know what happens when non-communal animals are kept together sometimes there's cage mate aggression maybe it wasnt a claw they saw but a tooth...
shaunyboy
10-25-11, 10:43 AM
I think that the food item may have been a little on the large size. But....it is hard to tell too when it isn't down all the way. I don't think that is what killed him though. Usually if a snake can get it in their mouth, they can get it down no problem. But, if too large, they will regurge.
Sometimes things happen. Snakes are not like other animals. If they are sick, you often don't know until it is too late.
So sorry for your loss.
^^^^^
thats what i was thinking as i looked at the pictures
my young diamonds prey looks way too big when its going down,but once its in the stomach it barely leaves a bulge
inmo the prey only looks too big because of its position in the snakes body and the fact it did not get it all the way down before death
the above is only my opinion
cheers shaun
shaunyboy
10-25-11, 10:54 AM
didn't realise we had so many internal injury experts on here ;)
just how much research have you all done regarding tears to the esophogus ???
to call the guy a liar after he has come on here and been pretty forthcoming right from the start is a tad harsh imo
cheers shaun
lady_bug87
10-25-11, 11:00 AM
I didnt mean he was a liar I was just offering another possibility, besides i have had hundreds of pinkies go through my house and I have never seen one with a claw
ZARADOZIA
10-25-11, 11:44 AM
A blatant display of disrespect is slightly uncalled for when a disagreeing opinion can be easily conveyed with respect.
Scientific study: prove your opinion.
Peel the dry and yellowed skin off the onion until you get the healthy meat of the onion.
Peel 10 layers off the onion.
Each layer of the onion contains a thin layer of cells that can easily be peeled off the rest of the onion; we’ll refer to this as the “skin.”
1. Take the skin and lay it on a slide. (make sure not to fold the onion skin over on itself)
2. Now take the pinky’s claw and gently pull it across the onion skin.
3. Place a drop of iodine on top of the onion skin and then a cover slip.
4. Place the onion skin under a microscope.
5. You will note regular, rectangular shape of the plant cells, the cell wall, and the nucleus.
6. Look for tears, holes, abrasions on the skin.
Repeat this process 10 times with 10 different pinky’s.
Once you have the results, please come back and post what you have learned.
The esophagus has a delicate lining called the mucosa. The mucosa can easily be torn by food, the side effects of a tear is severe vomiting and internal bleeding.
Esophageal Laceration: caused by a mucosal gastric tear at or near the point where the esophagus and stomach join which leads to bleeding from an arterial blood vessel in the upper gastrointestinal tract.
Scientifically stated: Esophageal laceration may take several forms: mucosal tear, transmural perforation, or fistula formation to the trachea and/or pleura. Esophageal mucosal tears are the most likely injury to be caused by ingestion of a sharp object and may be accentuated after initial injury by prolonged vomiting.
In human’s, 30% of those that suffer from this die.
Snakefood
10-25-11, 11:55 AM
A blatant display of disrespect is slightly uncalled for when a disagreeing opinion can be easily conveyed with respect.
.
I completely agree, disagreeing with someones findings can be done in a more compassionate and respectful manner.
I breed mice and after these findings, I went and checked the baggie I had inside and YES they DO have tiny little sharp looking claws. ANYTHING could have caused that tear, including a pinkie claw, however uncommon that may be.
What we know from the findings of the professionals, is that the baby snake had an esophigeal tear, which was probably the cause of death. This could or could not have been caused by the food item. The reality is the snake has passed, the necropsy done, the results found. There is no blame to be passed around, and a lack of compassion and respect is uncalled for.
alessia55
10-25-11, 12:01 PM
The pinkies I have in my freezer are mice pinkies and some of them do have little claws on them. I don't have access to my camera right now but we could post photos of pinkie mice and/or pinkie rats to see how some have claws and others don't...
This is just my opinnion, but I think the snake probably had a weak esophagus and the combination of the pinky being on the large side and having claws was just to much for the poor little guy.
daddy and son
10-25-11, 08:24 PM
Never saw this ending up as a flame thread, but for what it's worth, the vet was examining the snake and pinkie with a strong magnifying glass, not just the naked eye. He's been a vet for 30+ years and while he doesn't specialize in herpes, he's still smart enough to know an injury when he sees it. Bottom line, I was able to tell my son that it wasn't his fault and ease his mind. THAT is the most important thing to me.
Snakefood
10-25-11, 08:46 PM
I agree!! You have a good attitude daddy. Don't worry, this is nowhere near a flame thread. You just have to skim over some posts with a grain of salt, is all!!
I agree too! You just have to remember things can heat up a little when people with different opinions come together.
millertime89
10-25-11, 10:15 PM
Flame thread? no. Flame posts? yes, and they were uncalled for.
KORBIN5895
10-26-11, 06:55 AM
Well I must say thanks to those that set me straight on the difference between rat pinks and pups.I checked Google and realized 2 things. First I was ignorant about small baby rats. And second I can make a killing by purchasing f/t Online and selling them to my local pets store! I will also save like 6bu KS per feed. So thanks again!
Lankyrob
10-26-11, 11:32 AM
Whilst some posts were a little more .......blunt...... than others i wouldnt suggest that any were "flame" posts.
There are always lots of strong opinions on this forum and sometimes they come across in written form to be fairly aggressive, the points are all there - just a little rough around the edges.
jaleely
10-27-11, 12:08 AM
Hey, just for back-up...i got a ball python from the pound today, and suspect he has an esophagus tear! He's a big guy though, but that was the first....well second thing i thought of in how he acted while trying to eat!
candyraver69
10-27-11, 04:06 PM
Really sorry you lost him :(
If it was a mouse pinkie, he might have needed day old pinkies? Few of my hatchlings couldn't have taken a normal pinkie their first few feedings or would have ended up like that. What's odd is that he ate that size before though. How long after that feeding did it happen? I think that would explain a lot. If he had just died within hours, I would think it's unrelated to the food, but if he had been trying to get it down and couldn't, it probably was the food.
millertime89
10-27-11, 05:27 PM
Really sorry you lost him :(
If it was a mouse pinkie, he might have needed day old pinkies? Few of my hatchlings couldn't have taken a normal pinkie their first few feedings or would have ended up like that. What's odd is that he ate that size before though. How long after that feeding did it happen? I think that would explain a lot. If he had just died within hours, I would think it's unrelated to the food, but if he had been trying to get it down and couldn't, it probably was the food.
the mystery was solved already.
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