Newbie Breeders!l in search of some assistance

[Strutter769]

Thanks to a visit to the NARBC show this weekend by a relative with resources ($$$$$), my wife and I will soon begin breeding BP's (because I didn't see hardly any at the show!), BRB's, possibly Suri's and maybe even a Dumeril's Boa or two. We have 0.1 Piebald, 1.1 50% het Toffee, 0.1 Dumeril's, and even 0.1 15-yr old BCI, I would like to breed once.

We plan to adding different morph BP's early on and as well as 1.0 stunning BRB.

Partners are medical professionals who are brushing up on their knowledge of genetics.

Can anyone point us in the direction we should start headingvtrom here?

Thanks!

[Aaron_S]

You should first ensure you have your infrastructure in place first. I would start with racks for adults and then an incubator, followed by hatchling racks.

I would also just look at what you want to breed and go from there. I'm sure you're excited but still take your time and acquire animals of the utmost quality. Don't get a morph just for the sake of having it right away and for a lower price.

I would also make a plan on what you plan to breed. You've listed a few animals with all different types of care and breeding. From ball pythons to boas and at least three different variants.

Almost done here, so hang in. Breed what you want to keep and look at it. Not what will sell. Especially morph wise. You have to look at it all the time and clean all the crap so why look at something you don't really like?

Lastly, I would recommend at least an albino female ball python to your collection. You'll want to attempt to prove out that het toffee boy and that's the best and cheapest way! I hope you got paperwork for those two!

[Strutter769]

Remarkable, Aaron, thanks for that! When you say to prove the Toffees, are they that impressive? We had read recently they weren't too exciting. Thanks for the suggestion of the albino too. We'll be headed to the local semi-monthly show in a couple weeks, then back to the NARBC show in May. I've seen some incredible BRB Morphs I can't wait to try also. Saw a bright orange one with gold/yellow spots that was outta this world on YouTube!

[Strutter769]

Ok, hopefully picking up.an albino BP at the Scott Smith expo in a couple weeks. Also newly addicted to Pearl Rainbow Boa morphs now, also like the deep red lines that are out there.

I have another question, (maybe should be separate post?) Why would we get a het, as opposed to just a Hypo or Anery etc? Wouldn't it be worth the few extra bucks on the long run? I don't really understand the benefits of hets. Can someone give me the layman's answer for that? (-:

[Snakefood]

easy, with hets it's gonna take 2 or more generations to get the "visual" or "homo" that you are looking for, but they are FAR cheaper when your looking at the high end morphs.

Visual (homo) bred to another visual will give you what your looking for 1st gneration, but costs WAY more.

So the choice is basically time or $$

[millertime89]

het means the gene is recessive, you have to breed two hets, or a het and an animal displaying the gene to get ones that display the gene. So its entirely your call what you want to do. I'll give an example. Say you've got a het albino, and you want albinos, you buy the het albino for less than you would a regular albino, bot more than a normal. You go out and buy another het albino of the opposite sex, you breed them, and you get some albinos in the clutch, you've saved some money and now have babies that you want, as well as a proven het albino pair, and you sell off the normal appearing babies as normals (because you can't tell which are hets and which aren't, the best bet is to sell them all as normals to cover your butt). Its all about cost/benefit. If you want to produce hypos or aneries, buy one, and buy a het. All the offspring will either by the type you want, or a het carrying the gene and capable of producing more.

[millertime89]

easy, with hets it's gonna take 2 or more generations to get the "visual" or "homo" that you are looking for, but they are FAR cheaper when your looking at the high end morphs.

Visual (homo) bred to another visual will give you what your looking for 1st gneration, but costs WAY more.

So the choice is basically time or $$

I thought you get visuals on first clutch, if you want supers it'll take 2 generations.

[Snakefood]

I thought you get visuals on first clutch, if you want supers it'll take 2 generations.

Yes, sorry, your right. I was mixing that one up with how many generations it is going to take me to make my own snow lines out of aneries and amels!!

[millertime89]

Yes, sorry, your right. I was mixing that one up with how many generations it is going to take me to make my own snow lines out of aneries and amels!!

ha ha, there ya go!

[Strutter769]

het means the gene is recessive, you have to breed two hets, or a het and an animal displaying the gene to get ones that display the gene. So its entirely your call what you want to do. I'll give an example. Say you've got a het albino, and you want albinos, you buy the het albino for less than you would a regular albino, bot more than a normal. You go out and buy another het albino of the opposite sex, you breed them, and you get some albinos in the clutch, you've saved some money and now have babies that you want, as well as a proven het albino pair, and you sell off the normal appearing babies as normals (because you can't tell which are hets and which aren't, the best bet is to sell them all as normals to cover your butt). Its all about cost/benefit. If you want to produce hypos or aneries, buy one, and buy a het. All the offspring will either by the type you want, or a het carrying the gene and capable of producing more.

Ok, lost me in just one place, I think. Hypos aren't THAT much more than Hets, at least not twice the price. Wouldn't two Hets be more expensive than one Hypo?

[Strutter769]

I thought you get visuals on first clutch, if you want supers it'll take 2 generations.

I get it. Thanks!

[Strutter769]

easy, with hets it's gonna take 2 or more generations to get the "visual" or "homo" that you are looking for, but they are FAR cheaper when your looking at the high end morphs.

Visual (homo) bred to another visual will give you what your looking for 1st gneration, but costs WAY more.

So the choice is basically time or $$

Visual x Visual = Visual So, if I have a High Red and I cross with a Pearl, how much of my litter will be High Red Pearls? Is that knowable?

[Snakefood]

Ok, I only know genetics from a corn snake perspective, but if it's the same:

High red x pearl will give Normals (het high red and pearl)

You raise and breed 2 together and that's where you'd come out with a percentage of visual (homo) High Red Pearls

[lady_bug87]

If you are still talking BPs
Genetic Wizard 3.0 - World of Ball Pythons (http://www.worldofballpythons.com/wizard/)

Knock yourself out lol (I am the WORST with Genetics)

[millertime89]

visual x visual will result in both visuals and non visuals, but those non visuals are hets, and when bred to a visual will produced visuals and hets, but when bred to another het will produced non-visuals (both hets and normals) and visuals
the double the price thing was just an examble, it varies from snake to snake.
You're talking BRBs right? I'm not sure what genes produce what in BRBs. But a Pearl x high red will be all het high red het pearl, with no visuals. breed the kids back to the parents and you'll get varrying amounts of pearls and high reds.
As far as numbers, you can predict.
A het pearl to a pearl will produce 50% pearls and 50% het pearls (roughly)

[millertime89]

I like this one too, you won't get a BRB here but the percentages will be the same
TraxxTec - Genetic Calculator (http://geneticcalculator.traxxtec.de/en/rechner.aspx)

[millertime89]

SO
high red x pearl = 100% het high red het pearl
breed a het high red and a het pearl and you'll get approximately:
1/16 normal
1/8 het HR
1/8 het pearl
1/4 het pearl het HR
1/16 pearl
1/8 pearl het HR
1/16 HR
1/8 HR het pearl
1/16 pearl HR

[millertime89]

I'm still learning genetics, but I get the basics. Don't ask me what two morphs will look like when crossed though, I'm not sure what various morphs when stacked together will look like.

[stephanbakir]

If all you want is an albino, its more or less bettet to just buy one, the cost might be a bit more, but when you think of potential vet visits, food, water, time, heating for 2 snakes vs 1... it starts to add up quickly.

[millertime89]

plus the cost of breeding and the stress keeping and raising babies

[Strutter769]

visual x visual will result in both visuals and non visuals, but those non visuals are hets, and when bred to a visual will produced visuals and hets, but when bred to another het will produced non-visuals (both hets and normals) and visuals
the double the price thing was just an examble, it varies from snake to snake.
You're talking BRBs right? I'm not sure what genes produce what in BRBs. But a Pearl x high red will be all het high red het pearl, with no visuals. breed the kids back to the parents and you'll get varrying amounts of pearls and high reds.
As far as numbers, you can predict.
A het pearl to a pearl will produce 50% pearls and 50% het pearls (roughly)

BRB's yes. Sorry, should've clarified. We will be producing BP's also. Speaking of that, where can I get a list of names of all BP morphs, and how they are achieved? (e.g. A x Y = Z)

[lady_bug87]

Genetic Wizard 3.0 - World of Ball Pythons (http://www.worldofballpythons.com/wizard/)

[Nismo89]

You want to be careful with BRB "morphs" because there really aren't that many proven ones out there. Just because a specific snake has really nice bulls eyes or pearls or a really nice bright orange doesn't necessarily mean it will produce that because they aren't really proven morphs yet. I know Cliff has a lot more info on this subject and he's actually posted a few time in the rainbow part stating the proven morphs.

Edit: check this thread out for some morph discussion for BRB http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/epicrates/88290-midnight-anerythristic-brazilian-rainbow-boa.html

[Strutter769]

SO
high red x pearl = 100% het high red het pearl
breed a het high red and a het pearl and you'll get approximately:
1/16 normal
1/8 het HR
1/8 het pearl
1/4 het pearl het HR
1/16 pearl
1/8 pearl het HR
1/16 HR
1/8 HR het pearl
1/16 pearl HR

Oh WOW, lots to digest there. My partner minored in Genetics, which is great for me. But it almost makes sense to me in this format. Almost! Lol Thanks Kyle!

[Strutter769]

Genetic Wizard 3.0 - World of Ball Pythons (http://www.worldofballpythons.com/wizard/)

Perfect! Thank you! :shocked:

[Strutter769]

You want to be careful with BRB "morphs" because there really aren't that many proven ones out there. Just because a specific snake has really nice bulls eyes or pearls or a really nice bright orange doesn't necessarily mean it will produce that because they aren't really proven morphs yet. I know Cliff has a lot more info on this subject and he's actually posted a few time in the rainbow part stating the proven morphs.

Edit: check this thread out for some morph discussion for BRB http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/epicrates/88290-midnight-anerythristic-brazilian-rainbow-boa.html

I'm familiar with that thread, thanks for pointing it out though. So, although "High Red" isn't yet proven (I'll work more on understanding that, maybe tomorrow. Lol) or High White Sides (That's gonna be my contribution to the morphs world! Lol), shouldn't at least some of the offspring display some of those traits in almost each litter? Is that too much to ask?! :crazy:

[Strutter769]

If all you want is an albino, its more or less bettet to just buy one, the cost might be a bit more, but when you think of potential vet visits, food, water, time, heating for 2 snakes vs 1... it starts to add up quickly.


Albino anything really isn't my favorite. I'd love to continue Bryan Hummel's idea of bringing color to hypos, etc. That sounds amazing!

[Nismo89]

I believe yes you should at least get a few but its not a for sure thing but really nothing is for sure when getting into morphs its all a chance of you could get these but its all odds.

[blindfireak40]

There are several different modes of inheritance for snake (and most animal) genetics.

1) Simple Recessive: This is the easiest to understand. There are two "alleles", Dominant (or Normal, A for example) and recessive (a, in this case). The animal could be "Homozygous Normal" which means the genetic pattern at that "locus" would be "AA". Then they could be "Heterozygous for a" which means that the pattern would be "Aa", even though they look "Normal" (this is your "het Albino"). Finally, they could be "a", in which case they actually show whatever gene you're breeding for (They're actually albino) with the genetic pattern "aa".

2) Dominant: This works the same as Recessive, but in the OPPOSITE direction. An example would be the Tessera pattern mutation in corn snakes, where the ABNORMAL pattern dominates the normal one. In this case, "TT" and "Tt" look the same; both have the Tessera pattern. Only "tt" would appear normal.

3) Codominant: This is where a TON of your ball python morphs come in. Typically speaking, there are THREE "phenotypes" (outward appearances) in this case. There is the normal ("AA"), then the "het" form ("Aa") and then the "Super" form ("aa", homozygous a). All three are visually distinct from each other. An example of this would be the Pastel complex. PP= Normal, Pp= Pastel, pp= Super Pastel.

Those are the three basic methods of inheritance for genetics, and can be combined at one locus (to make things REALLY tricky). An example is the Amelanistic/Ultra locus in Corn Snakes. Amelanistic and Ultra are both simple recessive genes that are CODOMINANT with each other. This means that if the snake can have 4 different appearances based on the single locus:

"Normal": NN (homo Normal), Na (het Amel), Nu (het ultra)

"Amelanistic" (Albino): aa (homo Amel, Albino)

"Ultra": uu (homo Ultra)

"Ultramel" (this is where the codominance comes in): au (it shares appearance traits with both Amel and Ultra)


Hopefully that helped a little bit!! PM me if you want to discuss it further or have any more questions! :)

[Strutter769]

I love odds! It's legalized gambling! All kidding aside, the idea of creating some of these beautiful animals, whether worth $100 or $800. I figure the better the animals, the more they sell themselves.
Have any of you refused a sale, knowing the buyer couldn't/wouldn't care properly care for the animal? Just curious.

[Nismo89]

^ ^
Very informative I always get screwed up with recessives. I knew the pastel co-dom thing since thats what I have and is my project but everything else still confuses me to some point but I'm doing my best to learn. World of Ball Pythons is an awesome site for BP morphs and genetics though and a big help as well.

[Nismo89]

I would refuse a sale if I knew the person wouldn't properly care for it and when I do have babies I will do just that if need be. I'm not in it to produce what will bring the most money or what will sell the fastest. I'm in it to produce the morphs I want in my collection and be able to have a nice size collection that pays for the feedings and supplies by selling some babies every year. I'm also in it just for the experience of being able to raise something up from an egg to an adult.

[millertime89]

if I actually start breeding (maybe in a year or two) I'll also refuse sells to people that don't seem to be able to care for the species.
I need to dig deeper into retic genetics as those are the ones that interest me the most.

[Nismo89]

I've always loved the bee morph variations in BP so thats what I'm looking to produce and I would also love a lemon blast someday.

[Strutter769]

There are several different modes of inheritance for snake (and most animal) genetics.

1) Simple Recessive: This is the easiest to understand. There are two "alleles", Dominant (or Normal, A for example) and recessive (a, in this case). The animal could be "Homozygous Normal" which means the genetic pattern at that "locus" would be "AA". Then they could be "Heterozygous for a" which means that the pattern would be "Aa", even though they look "Normal" (this is your "het Albino"). Finally, they could be "a", in which case they actually show whatever gene you're breeding for (They're actually albino) with the genetic pattern "aa".

2) Dominant: This works the same as Recessive, but in the OPPOSITE direction. An example would be the Tessera pattern mutation in corn snakes, where the ABNORMAL pattern dominates the normal one. In this case, "TT" and "Tt" look the same; both have the Tessera pattern. Only "tt" would appear normal.

3) Codominant: This is where a TON of your ball python morphs come in. Typically speaking, there are THREE "phenotypes" (outward appearances) in this case. There is the normal ("AA"), then the "het" form ("Aa") and then the "Super" form ("aa", homozygous a). All three are visually distinct from each other. An example of this would be the Pastel complex. PP= Normal, Pp= Pastel, pp= Super Pastel.

Those are the three basic methods of inheritance for genetics, and can be combined at one locus (to make things REALLY tricky). An example is the Amelanistic/Ultra locus in Corn Snakes. Amelanistic and Ultra are both simple recessive genes that are CODOMINANT with each other. This means that if the snake can have 4 different appearances based on the single locus:

"Normal": NN (homo Normal), Na (het Amel), Nu (het ultra)

"Amelanistic" (Albino): aa (homo Amel, Albino)

"Ultra": uu (homo Ultra)

"Ultramel" (this is where the codominance comes in): au (it shares appearance traits with both Amel and Ultra)


Hopefully that helped a little bit!! PM me if you want to discuss it further or have any more questions! :)

Thanks, Sean! Very informative! Thank you.