View Full Version : Quarantine and captive methods
After reading the thread about wc or ranching, it got me thinking about our quarantine and captive methods. At our place, both in Scarborough and in the Niagara region we keep C.B and W.C animals. We have many rare and common animals and we take no short cuts in our reptile rooms. Taking a chance of losing all our animals is just not an option. We also have a rodent room to deal with. So a discussion on how EVERYONE keep there collection clean and disease free would benefit all of us.
For W.C. animals we keep them in separate rooms from the C.B. and we sterilize all equipment we use ( tongs, dishes, hide box, ...etc,) even if it's for the C.B animals. And in every room we use Ionize and ozone airfilters too get rid of odours and UV and hepa filters to kill most if not all airborne particles and germs. These filters are especially useful in the rodent rooms for the odour and the Quarantine rooms for possible Diseases. The filters are Expensive, but the lives and health of our animals far out weighs the cost.
As for fresh imports and treating them, As soon as the animals arrive, we give them a simple setup. We treat for possble skin parasites immediately, and wait to worm them. We want the animal to rest and not be stressed before we treat them for internal parasites. I'm a firm believer that if you treat a stressed animal for internal parasite. The medication could do more harm, possibly kill the animal. I usally try to get the animal to voluntarly eat by itself for a couple of weeks before I start medicating it. A STRESSED animal will not eat on it's own, and a stressed animal do not have a strong immune system. Without a strong immune system it will not be able to go through the medication process. Everyone has to be aware that the medication that kills the internal parasites is POISON, the body has to fight that and the buildup of dead parasites that the medication killed. How toxic do you think that is?
I know C.B is better, but there are animals that we have that are just not captive produced or we would like to add new bloodlines. I'm for C.B and W.C, but no matter which one, the animal must come first and not us. We must not find ways that is convienient for us and give a half *** job in taking care of these creatures. We owe it to our animals to give them the best possible captive lives.
Wow this thread is getting long so I'll shut up. Hope everyone took the time to read this and put your 2 cents in. Would really like to hear everyone's methods and oppinion.
Well, being that I only have *one* room to work with (my bedroom), I am running a higher risk. I am careful with the animals I bring in, if I feel the animal is too risky I just don't buy it. I have an air filter in my room to clean the air. Each animal (whether I've had them for years or days) has their own set of equipment (bags, sponges, etc). I do share tongs and snake hooks, but I sterilize them well between each animal. All newcomers are treated with fenbendazole to treat any possible parasites and also with Nix to prevent any possible mites from making their way into my collection. Between handling/cleaning each snake, I spray my hands and arms down with 99% isopropyl alcohol 3x then I was with antibacterial dishsoap.
Hopefully by summer I will have different living arrangements. I will have two rooms, a snake room and I will be able to turn my bedroom into quarantine only :D
fenbendazole.. why didnt you just say panacur? Thats really strong stuff if you're just diagnosing the animal on your own..espeacially if its for any "possible" parasites, if it doesnt have any why put it through that kind of treatment? thats some nasty stuff.
Kahane, what kind of air filter do you use to destroy the airborn particles? I've been looking for something for my reptile room. The room is about 25X10X8
mostly all of the animals are CB except for my monitors (but they were quarentined for a long time on their own)
I dont introduce any new reptiles anymore as i rarely purchase them now.. Iam happy with what ive got and like to work with the ones i have to give them the best possible accomidations.
thanks
Fenbendzole is the name of the drug, Panacur is just one of the many manufacturers names it goes by. I don't use Panacur brand, so why would I say that? It is a very safe drug to use, and suitable for <i>routine</i> worming schedules. Just like dogs, cats, and horses, it is good (and commonly practiced by many breeders) to have reptiles on a routine worming schedule. I personally don't worm mine routinely. They get an initial treatment when I aquire them, and if problems arise in the future (such as increased gut flora, etc) then I will treat the animal again. It is not like flagyl or any of those harsh drugs, it is gentle (yet effective against a broad spectrum of parasites) on the animals and there is no harm in using it as a shotgun treatment or as part of a routine maintanance program. This is one of the most common practices in industry.
Linds, thats a good point about the alcohol, we do the same. and we use Black knight spray forpossible mites and other skin parasites. Best of luck with your future snake rooms. You could never have enough rooms for the kids:)
V.aw, We use hepa filters that you could find just about anywhere, but the Ultra Violet filtration we use comes with the ionize/ozone filter. It works like a miracle! You can't detect a single odour and the U.V. should kill almost all airborne germs. I think we are gonna stop using the Hepa, since this filter does it all. The company nake is Biozone and they are located in the U.S.
Their product impressed us so much that Helena and I are negotiating with them to distribute and sell the products in the near future. They are a bit pricey, but worth it. Hopefully we could get things rolling and be able to offer them at a more affordable price.
very good thread and very good points.
As for me .. I have a basement to work with and that is it... Generally, all the animals I have, i have had for a really long time so they are all kept in there onwn cages in the same room .. Unfortunetly I have no filters but I would be interested .. I don't know where I would put it but i think it would be a wise investment to look into .. I generally do not treat a new animal Unless I have reasonably very good doubt that it has what I think it has .. so basically i do not do an initial shot gun treatment with the animals .. although i do agree its a good idea but i choose not to do it unless the animal stops eating or apears to have a problem..
As for quarantying .. its hard with one room .. I simply wash my hands with a alchool based had cleaner and wash my hooks and tongs in between .. If i had more than one room - then i would corectly quarantine but space is not available..
Dom
panacur is fenbendozle, and no it isnt safe for just routine actions IMO. How do you know whats wrong with your herp?? Are you a vet? (thats not sarcasm, its an honest question)
I medicate my own herps but its basically never. If i get a new reptile (which i dont anymore as my collection is very large as it is) Il monitor them before administering anything. I can't justify giving any drug to an animal before knowing what iam doing.. I dont fly blind.. Sorry just my point of view.
*** one thing to be careful with. I know you dont do it intentionally, but i guarentee if a newcomer to these forums sees the names of drugs that a mod uses, regardless of the mods knowledge someone may make a very crucial mistake while administering a drug they know nothing about!! So keep that in mind when choosing words like routine in the same line as the drug name..***
casacrow
01-08-03, 09:20 PM
Linds I am curious as to what brand of dewormer you are using? I am using Safe Guard paste. I am told that new laws are being passed in Ontario in March that will only allow liscened vets to purchase the products. I am curious as to what the concentration of your product is and the cost. ( Safe Guard is 100mg/g and costs $14.99)
Grant vg
01-09-03, 12:32 AM
Kahane,
I do my best to quarantine everything as good as i can, however i didn't always used to be that way when i first got into the hobby. After a few careless mistakes, mites,etc...and the knowledge i have gained from all of our members. i am much better educated and use and have used products like nix, black night, provent a mite, fenbendazole, etc...
With new specimens, especially WC's, i have followed a pretty basic precedure.
When animals first come in. i put them in a rubbermaid already soaked with a nix solution, then spray the snake. let them sit in peace for a while i set up there enclosures. nix the enclosures, very simple set up with paper towel (so i can spot mites if there are any) ceramic water bowl, a couple plastic hides, thats it.
Once i think the snake has spent the neccessary time in the nix'd rubbermaid (which is in the bathtub) i place the snake in its quarantining enclosure, which is just a rubbermaid rack away from my established collection.
i also, spray the floor, and surrounding area with Black night. i havn't got up the guts to spray the actual snake with a cockroach spray, and instead have used it as a barrier between both sets of animals.
Plus it takes care of any unwanted cockroachs :p
If i ever have a situation of definate mites. I use Provent a mite for immediate WAR. one spray and then i continue with nixing every day, untill i decide the problem is gone.
After the animals have settled in and have fed atleast twice, ill fenbendazole each and everyone, like linds, without hesitation. Usually two doses of 90% of the reccomended dosage (100mg of fenbendazole/lb) 14 days apart.
So far i have not had a problem and no one has ever showed signs of illnesses.
V.aw
If a newcomer happens to treat with this drug with no prior research, and just because a mod or member posted about it ,its not anyones fault but there own.
You could say the same about force feeding. A new comer could try that and damage a snake, so should we not talk about that?
Its up to the individual to make there own decisions. If they choose to forcefeed without asking how or when it should be done, then its there carelessness, and they probably shouldn't be keeping reptiles. We all have to learn somewhere. and its all of our responsibilities to research our actions before they are implemented. if not, animals die. But deworming snakes and the meds we use is an important part of keeping healthy snakes.
Its worked for us, and everyones practices are whats being asked, so this is mine. :)
I also treat each animal with fenbendazole, and have had no problems. and yes casacrow, we both use the safe-guard paste. i would prefer something liquid, because my rats blow up twice the size when i inject them with the paste, but thats life. :D
In regards to filters I use a negative ion/hepa/charcoal filter from Kenmore. It draws air in the bottom and through all filter media and back out to the herp room smelling like a rose.
Mine is fairly large about 18 wide by 18 deep by 30 inches high.
It has 3 settings for the rate of air intake and will filter air borne dust, mites, bacteria and viruses down to .01 microns. The charcoal portion I replace every 3 months other than that there is very little maintenance. When I researched air filters I looked at ease of maintenance and cost of replacment cartridges. With mine if I replace carbon every 3 months I am looking at about $40 per year in cost.
The filter itself is pricey about $400 but it works great and it pays for itself in no time. You can pick on up at Sears they come in 4 sizes mine was the one down from the largest size. My herp room is about 6 - 700 square feet and I have over 30 large boas in there plus other animals. When the filter is on you would not even now I had a small zoo in my basement. People who come into the house cannot smell a thing, plus it does alot of good for the animals.
Kenmore Electronic Air Cleaner and Ionizer Model C347 - 32953 buy it at Sears. It is rated for rooms 23 X 28 X 8 ft and changes the air volume in that sized room over 3 times per hour.
Hope this helps.
Dan
sSNAKESs.com
01-09-03, 06:14 AM
Originally posted by V.aw
*** one thing to be careful with. I know you dont do it intentionally, but i guarentee if a newcomer to these forums sees the names of drugs that a mod uses, regardless of the mods knowledge someone may make a very crucial mistake while administering a drug they know nothing about!! So keep that in mind when choosing words like routine in the same line as the drug name..***
We have never claimed that our moderators were vets, nor did she state what amount to administer anywhere in her posts, i dont see what you are trying to get at here, if the person who is getting these drugs is new to the hobby they would obviously have to go through their vet to get them so i am sure they would tell them how much to administer.
Personally - I do not medicate as a routine but as I previously stated b4 Linds thread .. I do think that it is a good idea if you know what you are doing ..
I beleive Linds was simply stating her husbandry and did not by any means imply that this the way you should do it as well .. its simply her way of doing it and again, I think its a great way of doing it!
I have a box full of different medication and treatments for my snakes .. If I choose to medicate and treat my snakes and post about it .. it is simply my descision and this applies to the one snake I have .. not the snake a new member has .. A new member, as previously stated by grant VG would require a vet visit to aquire such meds..
I am not vet nor i'm I qualified.. wether u choose to do or not do what a "mod" in this case does is a choice or a risk you have to make on your own ..
lol like the old saying says .. If i throw myself off a bridge, would you follow??
(Si il se jette en bas du pont .. es-ce que tu vas le faire aussi..)
lol its actually a french saying but anyway!
Thanks Kahane :) I was supposed to have a second room by last spring... so hopefully it works out better than planned last year! I too was using BK as a preventative measure for mites, but I got too paranoid about using it in such close proximity to amphibians and leopard geckos :( So back to Nix it is :)
casacrow,
mmmmmmmmmmm apple cinnamon.... :bsmile:
Linds, I've never tried Nix, How do you use it? how safe is it.
Gorelith
01-10-03, 06:09 AM
This may sound like a silly question but I feel I must ask it. For those of you who use a "quarantine room" or "quarantine rack" and have more than one specimen in quarantine wouldn't it be possible the 2 or more specimens could simply continuously spread contagious agents, bacteria, and mites to one another for infinity. For example: you have a ball and a corn in quarantine, and you got them on the same day from the same store. You notice the corn has mites, you treat it, and put it back in it's nix'd quarantine enclosure, and then you decide to treat the ball cause you got it at the same store, while you cleaning snakes and cages isn't it possible the mites could spread to the corn before the ball is treated? (not sure if this makes sense to anyone, could have maybe worded it differently) Anyhow I know it's not possible for everyone to separate everything into it's own entire room (this is what I do but then I also have a small collection).
Gorelith, you should not have trouble with the possiblity of the mites spreading if the right procedure is taken. As soon as a new snake arrive, we let it soak for about an hour and throw away any container it came in( pillow cases, deli- cups, etc.) After soaking we put the snake in it's setup enclosure( Which has been sprayed with Black Knight.) We also spray around the quarantine racks with the BK and turn the airfilters off for a few hours so it does not filter out the BK.
Kahane,
Nix is by far the safest mite treatment available. It's a shampoo for people with head lice, crabs, or any other body bugs..lol :p You can buy it any pharmacy. You just dilute one bottle of Nix with one gallon of water and spray all over snake and enclosure. It is just as effective as BK and PAM, but <B>alot</b> safer.
Gorelith,
I agree with Kahane. There is no reason that mites would be able to spread anywhere in your collection as long as proper treatment and prevention proceudres are followed.
Grant VG.
It doesn't matter really. I dont feel anyone should be talking about what meds to use. Unless of course someone here is a licenced vet, that actually has the knowledge and papers to prove so! Otherwise, saying panacur is safe could be very misleading.
Grant vg
01-11-03, 12:27 AM
Id trust the knowledge of the ppl in this hobby far more then any vet out there.
Knowledgeable Vets for exotics are rare, and most of them dont keep exotics themselves.
Friends that i know have used this drug for worming with great success, i have as well without a mishap.
We use horse dewormer, for snake parasites, we also use human headlice shampoo and cockroach spray, for snake mites.
I've been to the vets and thay charged me up the A$$ for ivomec injections (for mites) which didn't do a thing, I use a 5 dollar bottle of nix, and it gets rid of mites for years!
Never did i say it was safe, nor do i believe its unsafe. It just works.
I also use extra strength tylenol for headaches, but i guess i should keep that to myself as well. :)
Linds, I will try Nix the next ime I need a mite treatment. Hopefully that will be never:) By the way your posts are great.
Grant Vg, I also use fenbendazole and thiabendazole. Like you I do not treat the animals until they have settled in and eaten.
When pressed for space, I clear out my coat closet and use that for a quarantine room and have my mom keep my junk in her basement. Who needs Christmas decorations, giftwrapping supplies, assorted junk and a choice of coats when there could be a new herp in the house instead? And if my vacuum and mop and brooms have to lean in a corner of the bathroom, so be it.
I'm not a routine dewormer myself, but I have a few very close friends who are vets and they come to my house to do fecals and help me with my rescues so all my new herps are checked and treated only if needed. Why give the stress of processing a mild toxin on top of adjusting to a new home if it's not necessary? I realize not everyone has the luxury of house call fecal exams though.
I'll have to remember that Nix tip! Sure beats the heck out of all those Betadine soaks, Vapona strips and Ivomec. I don't trust Ivomec at all for herps, I've seen a fair number of them develop neurological problems, especially when given internally.
Grant vg
01-11-03, 12:17 PM
One thing i wanted to add as well, is on top of washing hands between different snakes, i usually start from what i would deem the cleanest snake in my collection to say a Fresh WC at the end. :)
Well last night I decide to go to a local pet store to pick up some incubator supplies and saw they had sub-adult female BP in. After some thought I decided to get her. When I got her home I gave her a good soak and threw away the sack I brought her home in (as per Kahanes post). When I removed her from her bath I noticed a few mites in the water. Since I had just happened to read through this thread earlier in the day I knew what to do. I got a bottle of Nix, diluted it and proceeded to spray everything in my condo which was or had been close to my new BP. I just wanted to thank everyone who posted on this thread because it prepared me for last night. I do have a few questions. How many times should I treat her with Nix? I moved her to a freshly "Nixed" enclosure this morning and found 15-20 dead mites in her previous enclosure, should I just keep doing this till I don't find anymore?
Thanks,
Ron
Grant vg
01-23-03, 11:09 AM
Hey Ron,
Glad to hear this thread was of help to you.
if you can, i would continue to switch enclosures daily for the first week.
spray the snake in its own seperate rubbermaid, let it sit there for 20 minutes or so, while you work on spraying and cleaning a new rubbermaid, place it in there along with its water, and so one.
After a week or so, most if not all the live mites should be gone for the most part, then i would continue spraying the snake and enclosure every couple of days, (without the water bowl) for the next month.
till your sure the eggs are gone.
and when you finally think everythings gone...keep spraying for another week. ..lol.
This is what i would do anyway. :D
Goodluck
Thanks Grant,
When do you think it would be safe to try feeding her? How long can I keep the extra Nix solution for? Does it lose it's potency over time?
Ron
Grant vg
01-23-03, 12:55 PM
Id try feeding it this week sometime, its always nice to know whether its feeding or not, early on.
In most cases for aggressive feeding ball pythons, the stress related to nixing everyday, etc...shouldn't be a problem if it was eating prior to you buying it.
The nix will last for months, if not years, :D
However, im not sure how good it is over a years period.
I have a bottle of nix on hand, which i have only had to use half of it so far. and have gone through two 1 liter water bottles.
i use 1/4 of a nix bottle or so per 1 liter spray bottle of water. every 6 months i change it, just to be on the safe size. So one bottle of nix lasts 2 yrs IMO.
Goodluck, let me know how it goes. :D
Grant vg
I think I will try to feed her soon but if she doesn't feed it could be either her winter fasting or the stress of the mites and treatment. I'm not too worried, she's ~1450 grams and only about 40" so she has good body weight. Too bad she isn't in shed it would probably speed up the de-miting process. I'll post a pick after her next shed. Thanks for the info.
Ron
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