A question of Ethics

[blindfireak40]

Here's a completely hypothetical thought, and I was just wondering where you guys stood on it:

It's fairly widely accepted that Rats are superior food items for rodent-eating snakes. It's also a commonly noted phenomenon that some snakes tend to want to stick to mice once they've been started on them. A lot of snakes (especially colubrids) start on mice, because rat pinks are too large.

The question is this: If there was a non-invasive way (think chemical or herbal means) to induce labor in rats, would it be ethical to induce it at early enough a stage that the rat pinks could be consumed by baby colubrids? Would there still even be health benefits with slightly underdeveloped prey items? Discuss.

[SpOoKy]

I am not an expert on development but I would assume the reason the fetus' spend so much time in the womb is because they need that time to develop completely. I think that taking them out early would hinder the nutritional benefits. just a thought though, I am not completely sure.

[knox]

Since mice meet all the nutritional needs of Colubrids, even as a hypothetical scenario I don't see the advantage of pre-mature Rat pinks.

[TeaNinja]

if there was a way, it would probably cause complications in mothers and/or babies. i find it much more logical to just start it on mice and switch it over when the time comes. it might be alittle tricky to get them to switch, but nothing like trying to alter the birth cycle of an animal lol.

[blindfireak40]

All fair points! My mind tends to go in odd directions when I'm bored/caffeinated, and I just sorta had this thought...seemed like it might be a good discussion piece :)

For my part, I agree with the statements posted above, but as a question of ethics I'm not sure. As feeder animals, their quality of life is not going to be that great no matter how you slice it...I agree that if complications were to arise in the mothers, it would be a poor decision, but the babies would be immediately frozen or consumed in this hypothetical world. I personally don't think there'd be an ETHICAL difference between this and full-term frozen rat pinks.

Again, this isn't just a practical discussion; I agree there's not really an argument to be had practically, as Mice satisfy the nutritional needs for all the snakes that this would apply to.

[knox]

Don't get me wrong - I love discussions like this - ethics and "what ifs". I appreciate you throwing it out.

Nice to make the brain work a little every once in a while.

[TeaNinja]

All fair points! My mind tends to go in odd directions when I'm bored/caffeinated, and I just sorta had this thought...seemed like it might be a good discussion piece



For my part, I agree with the statements posted above, but as a question of ethics I'm not sure. As feeder animals, their quality of life is not going to be that great no matter how you slice it...I agree that if complications were to arise in the mothers, it would be a poor decision, but the babies would be immediately frozen or consumed in this hypothetical world. I personally don't think there'd be an ETHICAL difference between this and full-term frozen rat pinks.



Again, this isn't just a practical discussion; I agree there's not really an argument to be had practically, as Mice satisfy the nutritional needs for all the snakes that this would apply to.

that's not necesarily true. i've bred and fed many feeders and they all have excellent lives. that's one of the reasons i find it so hard to euthanize happy, healthy, docile rats. i wish all of our food animals were raised in such good conditions, our meat would taste much better then pen crammed, hormone filled animals.

[millertime89]

free range steak/beef ftw

[blindfireak40]

that's not necesarily true. i've bred and fed many feeders and they all have excellent lives. that's one of the reasons i find it so hard to euthanize happy, healthy, docile rats. i wish all of our food animals were raised in such good conditions, our meat would taste much better then pen crammed, hormone filled animals.


Ah. I should have elaborated. What I meant to convey was this: Either way, for pinks or fuzzies, they're heading straight from the womb into euthanization, for the most part. In comparison to this, I don't know that there's a whole lot of difference between being instantly euthanized full-term or prematurely.

In terms of adult feeders, I agree. They can (And frequently are--see Layne Labs) very well cared for, and DO live full lives. When I made my statement regarding poor lives, I was primarily referring to the ones culled for feeder pinks.

I completely agree with the whole free-range beef sentiment, too...it just tastes that much better, doesn't it?? :) :yes:

[unknownclown]

Everyones ethics are different my personal ethics wouldnt allow it due to the fact that you would be putting the mother and babies at risk. Id be worried the mother could hemmorage, the babies would be unhealthy and the mom may put them out of thier misery before they are found. Not to mention the drugs involved to induce would be transferred to the snakes or whatever your feeding.

[millertime89]

I completely agree with the whole free-range beef sentiment, too...it just tastes that much better, doesn't it?? :) :yes:

My parents purchase half a free range cow after its slaughtered every spring for hamburger, steaks, roast, etc. It goes so quickly they need to start buying a whole one. Yum.

[TeaNinja]

delicious.

[Snakefood]

I can't say I would do something like that on purpose, I think I would rather cut a pink in half than figure out how to make the mamma deliver early.

On another note, when I brought Ananta home, the previous owner gave me a bag of "jumbo mice" that were obviously too big for her, so when I got my amel male from the show, I pulled them out as he is quite a bit bigger than Ananta. Low and behold, these mice weren't jumbo, they were pregnant. And there were 4 fetal pinkies in the bag too! (not fully developed) My assumtion would be one of the females spontaneously aborted during euthanization.

[TeaNinja]

I can't say I would do something like that on purpose, I think I would rather cut a pink in half than figure out how to make the mamma deliver early.

On another note, when I brought Ananta home, the previous owner gave me a bag of "jumbo mice" that were obviously too big for her, so when I got my amel male from the show, I pulled them out as he is quite a bit bigger than Ananta. Low and behold, these mice weren't jumbo, they were pregnant. And there were 4 fetal pinkies in the bag too! (not fully developed) My assumtion would be one of the females spontaneously aborted during euthanization.

good point, you could always cut a f/t in half. also that's kinda sad about the pregnant mom mice =/

[Snakefood]

good point, you could always cut a f/t in half. also that's kinda sad about the pregnant mom mice =/


Ya, it was sad. But I guess the silver lining is I have 4 super small mouse pinks. Khuno regurged last night, so I may use one of the tiny ones for next feeding, just to take it easy on his digestive tract.

[TeaNinja]

give him at LEAST a week or so before you try to feed again because regurging takes a toll on their system.

[Snakefood]

yes, I plan to.

I think it was my fault. This morning, I went back over my feeding schedules and it seems I mixed up Khuno's feeding day with Ananta's and therefore there was only 4 days between Khuno's last feed and this one that he regurged.

I know I am not supposed to feed that regularily, and I think because of this, I caused his regurge :(

[TeaNinja]

eh, that's possible, but i don't really see eating 4 days later as a good reason to regurge. i feed my female dum and she looks at me like dinner when she hasn't eatin in 3-5 days cuz she's always hungry. but then again who knows, maybe the already digested mouse wasn't mingling well with the undigested one.

[Snakefood]

maybe, I hope so. He has been a very good eater and been healthy since I brought him home last month. I would hate for something to start going wrong now.

But I've hijacked the thread (sorry), there's another for Khuno's regurge topic called "regurge"

As for the topic, I've heard of cutting pinkies in half, right up to mincing them like hamburger, so unless you have a "weird occurance" like I did with the prego mice aborting, it seems overkill to do it on purpose when so many other options are available.

[N1T24M]

the nutritional value of rat pink to mouse pink isn't that different. rats start to leave mice in the dust nutrition-wise when they're weaned off. i usually ride the mouse train up until large adult mice because an adult mouse > a rat pup mainly because rat pups feed primarily on milk and are high on fat.
also, i dont feed jumbo rats, basically those are just fat rats. i stop at large adult rats and ride on that for a while, then its rabbit time. essentially rabbits are superior to rats and mice since they're lean.
when its almost breeding season i will rotate females between large rats and rabbits and this works wonders for them.
didnt know you could feed rodent bits (chop them up, in half, etc) to snakes, snakes need to eat guts and all that other good stuff too, i dont see how a snake fed mice pink parts could be getting a full balanced diet.

[Snakefood]

I don't think the people doing that are doing it as a regular diet. These are tricks I have heard of to get problem feeders or undersized hatchlings to start eating, then they try to switch them over to some form of whole prey ASAP.

I give my 3 yr old male corn rabbit pinkies sometimes too!! (no one else is big enough yet!!)