adopting / buying venomoids

[forkedtongue]

I am well aware of the flamebait of this topi, plz read before you start

I have read about them for some time and read posts on the forums.... I would like to adopt one as I also am not a fan of putting snakes through harm.....

I'm not looking to buy one through a company that does this , but I would like to own one... I have been in love with vipers fr most of my life, but owning a true hot is not an option because of my wife and I having kids. While my snakes are kept ina locked snake rom, and the viper would be in a locked cage, its just not something we are willing to risk with a Venomous snake.....

Does anyone know where I can find venomoids for adoption or for sale through other OWNERS ? I can't find much through google....

[KD35WIN.AS.ONE]

I am well aware of the flamebait of this topi, plz read before you start

I have read about them for some time and read posts on the forums.... I would like to adopt one as I also am not a fan of putting snakes through harm.....

I'm not looking to buy one through a company that does this , but I would like to own one... I have been in love with vipers fr most of my life, but owning a true hot is not an option because of my wife and I having kids. While my snakes are kept ina locked snake rom, and the viper would be in a locked cage, its just not something we are willing to risk with a Venomous snake.....

Does anyone know where I can find venomoids for adoption or for sale through other OWNERS ? I can't find much through google....


Good luck..venomoids are not common in personal collections and where you do find them they wont be for sale and if they are... Be prepared to pay up to 10x as much as the venomous counterpart... and if you dont get one from a licensed company, your venomoid... will probably still have its venom. I have personally seen this happen and heard about it more than once.

what is your experience with venomous snakes? and what species are you looking into getting?? i see you want a viper but more specific?

[forkedtongue]

My experience with venomous snakes doesn't go any further than playing with the ones I would find as a kid/teen. I'm looking into professional training in my area already but s far nothing that I'm finding seems up to snuff.

I'm aware of the cost difference, I've had people I deal with on carpets and trees offer up various rattlers for next to nothing, matter of factly if I was that crazy about getting one id just bag one of the dozen I see everytime we go on training exercises on the mountains around here, but as I posted above its not an option for us right now.

I'm looking for cratalus species such as the atrox

[KD35WIN.AS.ONE]

My experience with venomous snakes doesn't go any further than playing with the ones I would find as a kid/teen.


Your ahead of yourself... Find someone who will let you come into there home/facility and log hours doing routine work. If you are trust worthy there should be atleast a couple people in your area willing to work with you. Just finding them is the hard part... I wish you luck, IMO id rather work with a cobra than a rattlesnake.

[forkedtongue]

I originally wrote a very sharp worded post to this, I would like to repost it in a manner that is not as inhospitable. Give me a moment thanks.
-------

I understand reason for caution. I understand the risks of a venomous species, and is why I posted above that a truly venomous animal is not an option for me. I am aware that devenomed snakes are still just as irritable and finicky as their venomous counterparts.

I was also already aware of venomoids being improperly done, and people selling full fledged hots as venomoids, I would NOT pay for or adopt a HOT without proper documentation proving it was operated on, and then investigating said vet and looking into other snakes who were worked on by that person.

I can handle using hooks with a snake, Ive been around wild rattlers most of my life as they were fairly common on my parents farm and ive handled them with bare hands when I was young. Ive been around wild southern rattlers as an adult avoiding them and observing them during training exercises, ive removed them from fellow soldiers sleeping areas. Ive lived around true Pit Vipers in Iraq as they commonly infested the shaded and enclosed undersides of our living containers and thanks to numerous holes in said living environments, it wasnt uncommon to have to evict unwelcomed house guests.

I am looking for a venomoid, I am intelligent enough to not play with the snake simply because it cant envenomate, I am not looking to be lectured on something I said I was already doing....(finding a mentor)

Its not your place to call where someone is or isnt qualified without knowing them in person or who they are or capable of.....suggesting mentorship is fine, if i hadnt already said I was doing that....

if you werent trying to be arrogant with your posts, then we can just throw this out to not knowing each other or how we talk online. if you were trying to be like that, then frankly im not going to waste any more time with this. i dont know you and i never will, so it doesnt mean much to me to have someone online acting like they are better than others.

[NennaMeerkat]

"Playing" with snakes in the wild is not the same as getting true training through someone who works with them on a daily basis and is considered an expert. You are saying you are looking into buying a venomous snake when you haven't had proper training...it seems dangerous. Find the expert FIRST then get a few years under your belt handling them and caring for them. Then once you do that I bet that expert could help you find a venomous snake without paying out the nose for it.

[forkedtongue]

"Playing" with snakes in the wild is not the same as getting true training through someone who works with them on a daily basis and is considered an expert. You are saying you are looking into buying a venomous snake when you haven't had proper training...it seems dangerous. Find the expert FIRST then get a few years under your belt handling them and caring for them. Then once you do that I bet that expert could help you find a venomous snake without paying out the nose for it.

Im not looking for a venomous snake, im looking for a proven and documented de-venomized snake. I am comfortable handling a snake with a very mean bite, but no venom. I own tons of neosporin from work related incidents, in fact I get it free from the pharmacy. And thats if I get bit, I dont plan to, like I said, I feel comfortable with my ability to hook a rattler that worst case is going to hurt me, not kill me or destroy flesh.

I also have experience assist & force feeding snakes that will not eat. I am not worried about husbandry so much with the snake, I just want training to get used to the PROPER way to handle a rattler IF IT WERE a venomous snake, because in 15 years when my youngest has moved out i want to move into true hots.

[forkedtongue]

Honestly, this thread is getting very off-topic, I definitely appreciate everyones concern for my well being and my ability to handle a venomous snake.

I FULLY AGREE I SHOULD NOT HANDLE A venomous SNAKE......

I hope that you can just entrust me that I can manage the husbandry and well being of a venomoid rattler, if not for the fact ive been around one species or the other since I was 10, then the fact that I AM looking into training.

[TeaNinja]

i don't like the fact that animals get altered to suit pet owners. if you want a non venomous snake, get one. i don't care what you do forked, i'm just saying that's my opinion in general. i wouldn't do it, but to each his own.

[infernalis]

On topic...

Blake, I have been involved in reptiles now for years..

The only company that I trust to perform the surgery correctly is also very expensive, therefore most people who invest thousands of dollars for one usually keep them for the snake's entire life.

If the person gets "busted" either for animal crimes or some other reason that brings authorities into their homes, the animals are either destroyed or sent to zoos.

So the short answer to your question is - not likely you will find any up for adoption at all...

[KD35WIN.AS.ONE]

Your to defensive on the subject... And assuming im arrogant because i don't believe you have enough experience (on a daily basis) to own a atrox, venomoid or not, is flat out wrong... If you think my opinion's on your choices are harsh, then you have yet to meet the venomous community. Because i can see your getting your self worked up over this ill leave it be.

[Uncle_Rev]

Your instantaneous defensive mode is a pretty fair indicator that you, the poster, doth protest too much. This community is by far more tame, incredibly more friendly and a thousand times less preachy than the venomous community. KD35WIN offers solid advice and has trustworthy knowledge base.

As far as for "adoption"; your request is SO specialized you will have almost no chance of finding such a beast unless you put in some time scouring kingsnake and fauna classifieds daily. Even then there is still no guarantee that what you think you are paying for is what you actually received.

Truthfully, as far as adoption/re-homing/rescuing for a fee goes; don't crap in the tub and call it a brownie, just go over to a place like ******* and call it a day. In the end you can just rationalize you "rescued" the poor butchered reptile from a bunch of corporate baddies...

[Will0W783]

It seems that this thread has been well-answered, but I wanted to add that I too doubt you'll manage to find a venomoid for adoption. There is only ONE company that uses a licensed veterinarian, pain medication, silicone implants AND microchipped documentation- and that is Venomoid, Inc. They are very expensive indeed- for example, you can find an intact CBB copperhead at most reptile shows for $35-70, but for a Venomoid Inc venomoid you will pay $400-600, IF you get one they have in stock. I've heard that they are only taking orders now, and not stocking venomoid animals, so you'd have to buy the hot, send it to Venomoid Inc, pay for the surgery and recovery, then have it shipped back to you. I'm avoiding the whole venomoid to do/not to do controversy. I personally wouldn't do it, but there was a venomoid cobra for sale on Craigslist in my area that I was tempted to inquire about....

In seven years of working with snakes, being active in the reptile community, and being a part of four reptile forums, I have only seen venomoids for adoption once- a venomoid cobra on Craigslist- and that is IF you consider $250 an adoption. Venomoid crotalids are fairly rare, as they are irritable enough that most people won't bother with them if they can't handle the intact, and the few venomoids done are usually for educational exhibits/ traveling shows.

I commend you for seeking mentoring- that's the right first move, and I agree that there isn't anything inherently wrong in asking around about where to find a snake at this point, but I would continue to concentrate on the mentoring first- you can never be too careful, and a mentor who has years of experience with his/her own hots can help you learn to anticipate the behavior and strikes, and how to be aware of where your munchable body parts are at all times- something that is easy to overlook when working with non-hots.

I honestly think that your best bet is to get your mentoring, ask your mentor about where you might a venomoid in your area, and go from there. But, not to be a downer, I honestly think that if, after training and experience, you still feel you need the snake to be venomoid, that you will have to go through purchasing one from Venomoid, Inc. I doubt you will find someone giving theirs up for much cheaper than buying direct would be.

[forkedtongue]

Thanks fo the post willow.

What made me pissed off is people talking to me like I'm a child, I said I was looking for a venomoid, I didn't say when I was going to get one, I just asked if anyone knew where to find venomoids for sale or adoption from users, NOT venomoid,inc .

I was not planing on getting a venomoid until -atleast- january, and like I said I am -actively- seeking a mentor, eeevery week I'm on craigslist and asking local shops.

It pisses me off having someone talk to me like they are better and have the right to juge me, a simple post like yours was fine, the "I'm better than you" attitude was completely un-needed....

[Valvaren]

Personally I didn't see anything like that happening, just a person with a lot of experience trying to give you advice.

[SSSSnakes]

I personally don't like venomoids, I have to agree, I don't approve of altering a snake to suit the handler. When I handle snakes I handle them HOT. I also would never train anyone to handle a HOT snake, because I would not want to be responsible for any one getting bit.

I do keep and love Rattlesnakes and agree they are harder to handle than cobras. Rattlesnakes do not like to be on a stick. Handling a rattlesnake in a snake room and handling one outside in the wild are two completely different experiences.

Now, having said that. Where I live a venomoid are still considered venomous by the DEC and requires a license just as a venomous snake. Reason is, you can't always tell a venomoid from a venomous snake. If the operation was not done correctly the snake could also become venomous again at some point without you knowing it.

I have gotten many venomoids given to me after the person found out that they were illegal without the proper licenses. If you really want one, try talking to HOT keepers and I'm sure you will find one eventually. You might want to try venomousreptiles.org.

[forkedtongue]

You know hat, that might be, I've been around enough hot owners and seen enough posts to know how their attitude towards nonhot owners is, so maybe I was overly defensive. I've survived a bomb going off underneath my truck, being mortared, rockets shot at me, ak47s shot at me, being run over by a stupid *** in a 14 ton truck, I'm going to spend however long I have enjoying my life.

I'm sick of hearing hot owners act like they are some elite corps of people who are above others. Are all of them like that? I'm sure they aren't but most I've met are and I've seen plenty online who act like it. So yeah I guess I'm naturally quick to be defensive, and like I said in a post above, if he didn't mean to be arrogant and preachy, I apologize. I'm not looking for a venomous snake, I'm looking for a venomoid, can deal with getting bit if I mess up. Would I like a true hot? Absolutely, but I have yeaaaaars before my kids are on their own , I think by then ill have eithr figured out the venomoids behavior or have found a mentor, so thank you all who suggested it, I was well aware of the need for one with a venomous animal, I joke with he local shop owner all the time because they have a few vipers on display ad people always ask him how much for one and eventually say they've never even owned a snake ,or if hey did maybe a ball or corn.

I get the seriousness of owning such an animal, and I'm sure said owners have a lot of pride for owning something that can kill you so maybe that's why some that I know are like that. Personally I thank god everytime I make it back from getting groceries as I step out of my car because that thing I do everyday is deadlier than their snake, and I don't talk down to people who get in car accidents, so i guess not understanding some of the hot owners attitudes just makes me defensive and hostile.


With all that said, ill gladly apologize again to kd35 if he didn't mean it the way I took it, but its text on. Screen, its fairly easy to misunderstand peoples meaning and attitude online.

----edit note , Galaxy S android is the worst phone in the world, dont ever own one, or you will type like a 3rd grader---

[forkedtongue]

I understand completely Ssssnakes, I hate when people hurt or worse kill a snake, when I would go to my cottage up north every summer as a kid, I would sneak across the channel to my neighbors edge of the lake and catch all the water snakes and garters I could find and bring them to my side or else I would have to watch all the kids my age running up and down the shore with shovels to kill them all.

That is the main reason i was looking for adoptions OR buying (i dont mind spending the money) from someone who ALREADY owned one that was properly venomoided.

I know there are probably alot of half #@$ed attempts out there (and that both saddens me and terrifies me) and is the reason I would not accept or buy one without proper documentation that I can verify through whoever performed it.

as far as the permits go, I did read off VenomoidInc's website that my state requires no permits for Native or Exotic venomous species, they do however require permit for Native Endangered (which means native since Michigan's only native is listed as Threatened) and as much as I would LOVE to one day have a pair of native Michigan rattlesnakes to breed to help keep them going, Im sure it would never happen legally.

I appreciate all the input and regards for safety, I completely agree with you all, and even if what you said doesnt apply to ME in my situation, Someone else might still read this thread who WAS looking into a true HOT and consider seeking a mentor.

[Will0W783]

One thing to note- check your city/town laws. Just because hots are allowed in your state doesn't mean they are allowed in your city or town.

[forkedtongue]

Thanks for the heads up willow, I meant to get ahold of DNR yesterday but just had so much going on. Oh well, no rush, I do like to get all my bases covered and line things up fast, but like I said I've got plenty of tme before I'm actively looking to purchase

[KD35WIN.AS.ONE]

Most of the people i personally know who keep/have kept venomous snakes are not open enough to even give a newcomer advice. I have two mentors, one is a family friend, hence how i even began working with venomous snakes. I have a third person i dont really consider a mentor but she has a large collection of Tree vipers and i do spend some of my time there. Of my two mentors neither of them are fans of newcomers to venomous snakes, and will voice there opinion's about it if need be. Look at it like this every time a person begins getting involved in keeping venomous snakes on a Personal collection level, there is an increased chance that either them or a family/friend is bitten for what ever reason. This all becomes recorded documentation, which will later be turned on us as venomous snake keepers. The right to own venomous snakes on a personal level isn't going to be around forever in this country...

So yes i understand the community is harsh, sometimes the things i say may come off as harsh. Though i don't feel i did in this instance. I don't feel i am better than anyone.. and even if i did, ownership of exotic venomous reptiles wouldn't be the reason...

Id like to comment on what Sssnakes said: I do keep and love Rattlesnakes and agree they are harder to handle than cobras. Rattlesnakes do not like to be on a stick. Handling a rattlesnake in a snake room and handling one outside in the wild are two completely different experiences.

I agree 100%. Though i would rather a person with lower experience work with a rattlesnake. I still have to say id rather work with any species of Naja any day. To me a cobra's movements and over all demeanor are easier to read then most crotalus. (In my observed cases) Most of the cobra's ive worked with (all species but Ophiophagus hannah, Hemachatus haemachatus, Naja katiensis, or Naja ashei) focus most of there attention and efforts on you as a person instead of being on the stick, and will generally accept getting on to a stick better then most rattlesnakes. I also strongly agree with your point about the difference from handling snakes in an enclosed area oppose to outside.

[forkedtongue]

I understand alot of what the HOT guys are saying, and I understand the reasons for them. Im just not a fan of being talked down to regardless of the situation.

Ive been putting serious thought into everything since posting this thread, like i said in the beginning im not a fan of hurting snakes, I was interested in getting a venomoid that someone else owned rather than having venomoid produce one.

Ive also taken some advice from other owners, I think Im going to look into a FWC for now, later on once Ive had some fun handling and getting used to that and hopefully found a mentor I would like to move on to a Waglers. Someone mentioned them to me in a PM and since then Ive been reading as much about them as possible, and I think that would be a very good bet for a first true HOT.

Ill put the Crotalus dream on hold for now, its both not possible due to logistics (no venomoids that I can find) and also because my wife cannot stand rattlesnakes, not due to any part of their behavior or venom, she thinks they look scary as hell, she said she'd rather me have a Gabby , since they look pretty LOL. (obviously not getting one, disarm your flame throwers ..)

I appreciate everyone's input, both on here and in PM, and I appreciate everyone bearing with my semi-psycho attitude, I know I have anger issues lol, Im not much of a people person lol.

I hope everyone can forgive my outbursts, I enjoy this community very much, and I dont wish to be a bad apple amongst it.

Cheers.

[stephanbakir]

If I were you I'd get a Mangrove snake, they are rear fang just like the fwc but are 10 times as agressive and fast, the bite is a pain in the *** but not much worse then the fwc.

[SSSSnakes]

If I were you I'd get a Mangrove snake, they are rear fang just like the fwc but are 10 times as agressive and fast, the bite is a pain in the *** but not much worse then the fwc.

I have both and the FWC is docile and can be handled, but the Mangrove will take you head off if you don't watch out, especially at night.

[RandyRhoads]

I'm a firm believer that a hot in a SECURE cage in your house, is safer than a hot in your yard.... (doing yardwork outsite anywhere there are known hots). I'd feel safer using my hots enclosure as a pillow at night then walking through brush in the sierra nevadas...

As long as you've (played with is a bad word) "worked" with that species in the wild and know their behavioural traits. If you're looking into getting something not native, chances are that's illegal. If you are, go out field herping. Use a hook,snake gaitors, and common sense. Watch how it reacts to certain stimulus such as defensive posture, defensive attacks, retreating and such.

I have one hook. I've never had the slightest problem with cage cleanings dealing with 4 pi**ed off NorPacs all in the same enclosure.

[forkedtongue]

Thanks for the suggestion of the mangroves, ill look into those tonight. Up all day and night now, wife just had our 3rd son on the 11th, so its constant diapers , coffee, and nicotine for me right now. Id be more than happy to learn with an aggressive rear fanged for now, aside from army related injuries doctors always tell me I'm the image of health as far as organs and such, so I suppose what they mean to say is I can afford a few moron moves in the name of learning when it comes to a rearfang (well some of them anyhow, I have zero intention of getting a lethal snake for years, although I know with some peoples reactions any venom could be considered lethal)

Thanks again all

I appreciate your post randy, although after a lot of thought and talking with some people, as well as my recent son, I guess my confident abandon has died off a little. While I don't doubt I can handle a venomoided rattler still, I don't think its the right direction I should take. Ill start at the bottom and work my way up like others have, instead of using the venomoid cheat codes.