Monitor aggression and trust building.

[Dehlida]

2 days ago I attended the local reptile expo. I purchase a wide variety of things from this event however this time only a single animal was purchased from the expo.

I have a weak spot for monitors, especially the larger ones- which are almost always extremely defensive, sometimes aggressive. I found a V. ornatus offered at one of the local store's booths. When asked about temperament I was told basically that he does not tolerate handling etc, they offered to remove him from the box by grabbing him from behind and lifting him out this way- I of course declined.

After thinking about it, I purchased this monitor- which was good due to the fact that within the first half hour of the show- it seemed like every monitor there had sold.. Most of the keepers looked relatively new to monitors and of course decided to start with niles or water monitors- setting up for failure.. I stopped and offered one of the guys with a water monitor he had just bought some advice and wished him luck and headed on my way home.

I put the V. ornatus in a holding tank while I went to dinner and watched a movie, to calm him down a little bit. All day he was extremely defensive, whipping the cage with a vengeance. You would start to walk down the hall- out of sight of the animal and he would still whip and hiss and charge around like a lunatic crack addict.

I managed to get him out of the house and into my shed where I left him alone the night. I began work with the animal yesterday and spent roughly 3 hours in total with him. I spent another half hour with him this morning.

I took this picture maybe 15 minutes ago.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/CapAnt53/lizard.jpg

I've worked with monitors over an extensive period of time, and spent hours and hours sitting watching monitor body language. I've spent a ton of time even sitting watching youtube videos on aggressive monitors and defensive monitors, all of this nature, giving me a firm grasp on body language, posturing, and reactions to certain stimuli.

I decided to post this thread after I read another one about an ackie monitor. Both rob's that bit him- and gungirl who is looking at getting one. As much as I'm proud of rob for purchasing an ackie over another monitor- a bite could have easily been avoided.

For those of you looking at monitors- or who have one of your own, look at the picture and tell me what all you can see about the monitors attitude based on the pictures. I'm actually asking for replies here because I want to illustrate a point on just how complex these animals are. I will go over all of my techniques in the next post. So don't post after this one plz!

[Dehlida]

How did I get this monitor to go from defensive and aggressive to being able to lift him out of his cage? Simple. Let me go over some basic rules of monitor handling and trust building.

1. Never force handle the monitor- Never reach in and grab him and pick him up and force him to come hang out with you. This is extremely stressful for the animal, and will not only setback the trust building as the animal gets larger, but affect the animals health and well beeing.

2. Never EVER grab a monitor behind the head and lift allowing the legs to dangle. It may be ok for wild monitors, but most certainly not for a captive animal. Where would a predator grab a monitor, you got it, from behind lifting up.

3. Never squeeze, pinch, or pull any part of the monitor at any time. There is no reason. If he's getting away from you, place your hand in front of him, but don't grab his tail. He is likely to turn around and give you a nice bite on the hand just like ben seigel got when handling one of his croc monitors.

4. Never work with the animal for an extensive period of time- break it up over sessions throughout the day. I work with mine for maybe 30 minutes to an hour at a time, then leave them alone. They realize short term interaction is fine, and that you will leave them alone when done, and they aren't hurt or in danger. It also speeds up the process a great deal.

5. Never feed from your hands, some monitors will confuse hands for food, and its really really based on the individual animal. Of all my monitors I have only one I trust with hand feeding. Even my tame educational show animals go nuts for food, and will take a hand off in feeding.

Now the steps I went through to get the animal to behave like in the picture. These are techniques I use.

1. I placed my hand in the cage, and left it there until he stopped whipping my arm. I ignored him and let him be a monitor, he eventually calmed down and ignored my hand in return. I slowly inched my hand closer and closer, when he'd get mad, I'd stop again until he was calm. I repeated this step a couple times and soon he didn't mind my hand or arm as much. I removed it and left him alone.

What did this teach him? My hand and arm isn't going to hurt him, and sitting in his cage isn't such a big deal.

2. I placed my hand in, somewhere he would have to walk over- between him and his water basin. He eventually would walk over me to get back into his water, or over me to get out of the water. Each time he rushed less and became less hesitant of me.

What did this teach him? It reinforced the fact my hand is a moving part of his environment, one that will not hurt him nor affect him.

3. I placed my hand on his tail (I did not grab, big difference), and held it down so to speak while when he would try to whip me. Monitors are defensive of tails for some reason. I would simply hold his tail, and move a finger or 2 gently rubbing him.

What did this teach? My hand touching him isn't a threat to him, especially one of the parts of his body he's most defensive of.

4. I touched other parts of his body, his back, legs, and being comfortable with the animal- his neck. I took it slow, no fast movements, just gently touching him then leaving him alone again.

What did this teach him? Not a predator, that the big moving person wasn't going to injure him or scare him, he's gaining trust.

5. I began gently lifting him from the water, or various parts of land after he crawled onto my hand or arm. I would get him up and use hand under hand to allow him to crawl about and explore. That is when the picture above was taken.

What did this teach him- the big human won't hurt me, but he is also a bridge to an outside world.

6. Which will happen later today for this animal- tong feed them. The monitor needs to not only know that you are safe, and a bridge, that you bring the food. This is the mos vulnerable time for a monitor outside of breeding. Get the monitor comfortable eating around you!

All of these methods are relatively non invasive, and take time and practice. For beginners I recommend slowing down every step to several weeks as I did with my other monitors, until you have more experience under your belt. I'd be willing to guess no one can list off all the things being displayed in the above photo.

I do not recommend any of these tips for HATCHLINGS, leave hatchlings alone until they are larger. Stress on hatchlings will kill them quickly, and it isn't worth the risk. Wait til the monitor is established and healthy first.

[Lankyrob]

Hehehe - love how you keep mentioning about me being bitten - this is probably the third time you have branded me in with the bad owners cos i got bit once.

I know exactly why i was bitten and yes it was my fault but one bite form a lizard that 99.9% of the time is perfectly fine and has no problems whatsoever does not make me A) a bad owner or B) someone not able to "read" my animals

[Dehlida]

Hehehe - love how you keep mentioning about me being bitten - this is probably the third time you have branded me in with the bad owners cos i got bit once.

I know exactly why i was bitten and yes it was my fault but one bite form a lizard that 99.9% of the time is perfectly fine and has no problems whatsoever does not make me A) a bad owner or B) someone not able to "read" my animals
I'm not branding you with the bad owners Rob. However, you're the only one posting pictures of being bitten. If I wanted to call you out for something, I'd pull out your husbandry- including the bark substrate and aquarium :).

[TeaNinja]

blaow .

[Lankyrob]

I'm not branding you with the bad owners Rob. However, you're the only one posting pictures of being bitten. If I wanted to call you out for something, I'd pull out your husbandry- including the bark substrate and aquarium :).

At least get your facts right - i have NEVER put a reptile in an aquarium - the substrate set up i use is recommended by someone i know personally and has over 40 years experience with a wide variety of reptiles, keeping, breeding, educational shows and taking in rescues from local authorities and recouperating them.

[Dehlida]

At least get your facts right - i have NEVER put a reptile in an aquarium - the substrate set up i use is recommended by someone i know personally and has over 40 years experience with a wide variety of reptiles, keeping, breeding, educational shows and taking in rescues from local authorities and recouperating them.
I was referring to aquarium as in the enclosure he is in- which isn't suitable for his needs in the least. It's set up for a snake, not a monitor.

Also, I could care less about the substrate your friend recommended. He is wrong. Ackies burrow more than most monitors I've worked with, anything other than a dirt/sand mixture is WRONG. That is a simple fact of monitor husbandry, especially ackies.

It probably explains why he frankly looks a little dehydrated in the pictures as well. Of course, your friend probably recommended that tiny water dish too and your "bath time". Lol, that's basically like refusing a dog a water dish except at certain times in the week, despite outside temps being hot.

I'm not trying to hurt your feelings, however, I do care more about the monitor than your feelings or your pride. You are not taking proper care of the animal, and he will likely die an early death due to it.

[Lankyrob]

How can a melamine enclosure be an aquarium? I must admit i dont understand that point at all?

As for the other points i will agree to disagree - cant be bothered arguing with you.

[Jay]

I was bitten by my Bosc, while spot cleaning I was just more concerned about getting the thing off me. It doesn't make me a irresponsible or bad owner. I know if you ever get bit you have to much of an ego to admit it.

[Dehlida]

How can a melamine enclosure be an aquarium? I must admit i dont understand that point at all?

As for the other points i will agree to disagree - cant be bothered arguing with you.
I use the word aquarium interchanged with enclosure. Melamine does a poor job of holding in humidity and moisture, and has a bad tendency of rotting.

Agree to disagree? You're saying a monitor that in the wild that spends most of its time in a burrow does not deserve to be given the chance to burrow? Email Proexotics, they produce a ton of ackies, some of the highest quality in the world, they allow burrowing. Go ask on varanus.nl- they will tell you the same thing. I can have people with 30-40 years of MONITOR (not just reptile) experience tell you that you and your friend are wrong, and your monitor is suffering because of it.

Clearly your ego matters more than the care of the animal.

I was bitten by my Bosc, while spot cleaning I was just more concerned about getting the thing off me. It doesn't make me a irresponsible or bad owner. I know if you ever get bit you have to much of an ego to admit it.
I'm not saying you're a bad owner for getting bit. I'm saying it's easily avoidable with proper attention to the animal and its environment. Being bit is due to laziness and not knowing the signs to watch for.

[Lankyrob]

An aquarium is a fish tank, if you tried keeping water in a melamine vivarium then yes it would probably leak!

[Dehlida]

An aquarium is a fish tank, if you tried keeping water in a melamine vivarium then yes it would probably leak!
I'm refering to moisture, humidity, the moisture that you should have in the dirt you would provide him. The moisture from his water dish leaking when he gets in and out and spilling water around. These things.

Of course, you've written off basic husbandry. Clearly your years of experience warrant the defensive nature of your pride. Let me know when you start caring about the animal, and not your bruised ego.

Until then, you are killing your monitor, and your friend who gave you the advice is ignorant to monitor husbandry entirely, he probably still feeds savs rodents LOL!

[Jay]

Would you mind if I post a video of my bosc interacting with me on this thread? I would love to receive you expert opinion of what I am doing wrong so I can correct it accordingly.

[Dehlida]

Would you mind if I post a video of my bosc interacting with me on this thread? I would love to receive you expert opinion of what I am doing wrong so I can correct it accordingly.
I'm not claiming to be an expert; however, I do have enough time spent with these animals to offer solid advice on behavior and husbandry. You are free to post a video of your animal and I'll give you my thoughts.

[Valvaren]

I feel like you are claiming to be an expert. I don't mean to sound rude but I've been on forums before that have been focused on one particular animal and i've known many members like you and they often don't get any kind of reception to their threads other then arguing. Personally I don't like how you keep calling out certain members on how they treat their animals and I for one know what its like to see people use things other then the 'optimal' options and I know it can be really really frustrating but I've learn to try to compromise with them rather then trying to shove my ideas and opinions down their throat and calling out how terrible they treat their animals and that they are going to die.

[Dehlida]

I feel like you are claiming to be an expert. I don't mean to sound rude but I've been on forums before that have been focused on one particular animal and i've known many members like you and they often don't get any kind of reception to their threads other then arguing. Personally I don't like how you keep calling out certain members on how they treat their animals and I for one know what its like to see people use things other then the 'optimal' options and I know it can be really really frustrating but I've learn to try to compromise with them rather then trying to shove my ideas and opinions down their throat and calling out how terrible they treat their animals and that they are going to die.
Here's the deal though. I would rather him hate me for telling him the truth, then love me for telling him "everything is gonna be alright". Because it's not. In the end the animals health and well-being is at stake. There is no compromise. It's not logical. You would get mad at the guy keeping his ball python on sand and feeding it a fuzzy mouse once a month. In the end- the husbandry is wrong and the animal will suffer accordingly. No amount of sugar coating and hand holding will change this fact.

[Valvaren]

I said I understand how you feel and i'm not saying go out and buy him a coffee all i'm saying is your approach is just p*ssing people off and in the end it gets you and their animal no where. I've dealt with many people who choose things for their beardie for them the own when its unsafe for the dragon and it upsets me so much trying to understand why people do and pick something that has a risk over something that doesn't because it looks better to them or they 'think' their dragon like its. I've had my days where i've bitten people's heads off and were blunt with them but I find it works much better when you tone it down and just stubbornly explain things in the best way possible without telling them their animal is going to die.

I think the people on here have enough maturity to listen when spoken to with respect that they will take your points, give them thought and ultimately choose what is best for their animal and all we can hope is that they make the right choice.

[Dehlida]

I really don't mind if it's pissing him off. I hope the facts and the truth upset him, the truth hurts, and it smacks you in the face sometimes. I've explained multiple times over multiple forum posts exactly why the conditions are wrong. Maybe it's about time I wrote a general care sheet for monitors and maybe people will actually read it. I'd be willing to bet most people will ignore it and instead listen to the awful pet store/"lol but my friend said!" advice.

[Valvaren]

Whatever, your choice I just feel you are trying to do good but in a completely wrong way. I was one of those people who listened to the pet stores advice, and they almost killed Thil on me, I went to a forum where I met a lot of people like you and a lot of people who are nice and take the time to really really explain in a way that wasn't insulting to me or telling me i'm stupid. Those are the people I remember and the people who continue to help people and make a difference.

People can really be a pain in the butt when it comes to stuff like this and i'm aware it can get really hard to be patience but that is what makes information stick, not complaining, yelling and calling out.

[Dehlida]

Whatever, your choice I just feel you are trying to do good but in a completely wrong way. I was one of those people who listened to the pet stores advice, and they almost killed Thil on me, I went to a forum where I met a lot of people like you and a lot of people who are nice and take the time to really really explain in a way that wasn't insulting to me or telling me i'm stupid. Those are the people I remember and the people who continue to help people and make a difference.

People can really be a pain in the butt when it comes to stuff like this and i'm aware it can get really hard to be patience but that is what makes information stick, not complaining, yelling and calling out.
Not yelling, complaining, or calling him stupid. I've had numerous people over the years tell me what I'm doing is great, and they've gained a lot of information from my posts. Those people have an open mind and are willing to learn about the animal they are keeping. Some individuals- are not.

[Valvaren]

k I'm done with this.

[Kayla90]

Wow ego much?
I have to say I completely agree with Valvaren.. I don't even own a lizard yet and reading through this just makes me want to ignore your advice and not pay one bit of attention to you.
You obviously have a love big for lizards, but you have to understand that people come to the forums to learn and find new ways to make there lives better, because they also love their animals just as much. However, when someone comes on and starts acting like a "know it all" the first thing that people do is get defensive. No one wants to have someone bi*** at them, we want actual facts and knowledge which you seem to have a bit of, but in order to get that across more clearly, perhaps you should try stating it in a different, more friendlier way.

[Dehlida]

Wow ego much?
I have to say I completely agree with Valvaren.. I don't even own a lizard yet and reading through this just makes me want to ignore your advice and not pay one bit of attention to you.
You obviously have a love big for lizards, but you have to understand that people come to the forums to learn and find new ways to make there lives better, because they also love their animals just as much. However, when someone comes on and starts acting like a "know it all" the first thing that people do is get defensive. No one wants to have someone bi*** at them, we want actual facts and knowledge which you seem to have a bit of, but in order to get that across more clearly, perhaps you should try stating it in a different, more friendlier way.

How do I state: "Your enclosure and husbandry is killing your monitor" in a more friendly way? These are facts. I'm sure as hell not going to say "hey mate you should probably change your substrate to dirt, because he might suffer and have a short life because of it!". Do you know why? Because of the words "probably" and "might". These what-if terms. I'm not speaking in what-ifs. This is not a what-if issue. This isn't as simple as "Yeah I like aspen bedding instead of coco fiber for my snake". The issue is a simple point blank the husbandry is wrong and the animal will suffer for it.

No maybes, probablys, what ifs, nothing but solid in your face facts. I could care less if you take my advice, my advice is the same advice any other sound monitor keeper will throw at you. Fact is- people don't like it. People who ignore me will get a lizard, and it will end up dead in short order because they where too concerned about their precious feelings.

[Lankyrob]

I'm refering to moisture, humidity, the moisture that you should have in the dirt you would provide him. The moisture from his water dish leaking when he gets in and out and spilling water around. These things.

Of course, you've written off basic husbandry. Clearly your years of experience warrant the defensive nature of your pride. Let me know when you start caring about the animal, and not your bruised ego.

Until then, you are killing your monitor, and your friend who gave you the advice is ignorant to monitor husbandry entirely, he probably still feeds savs rodents LOL!

A sealed melamine enclosure, like i have, has no issues holding humidity, nor will it rot as melamine is impermeable to water. The only way it can rot is if water gets underneath its external coating - this cant happen when it is properly sealed.

In regards to the husbandry whilst you are obviously the expert to beat all experts with regard to monitors care i will listen to your comments and consider them alongside the info i get from my own expert who's expertise i respect more highly.

[Jay]

Wow ego much?
I don't even own a lizard yet and reading through this just makes me want to ignore your advice and not pay one bit of attention to you.
His way of putting things is blunt yet accurate. Everyone should be mature enough now to not let some guy on the world wide web get under his skin. I would understand other experienced monitor keeps arguing his points, like you said you don't even have a lizard. If anyone reading his post is looking to obtain a monitor they should take his advice. When he "fought" with me i ARGUED back until I realized he has EXTREMELY valid and accurate points to be made. He obviously offended a member on hear, and now it appears everyone is about to gang up on him. Just remember not one experience monitor keepers has posted any actual facts that he is wrong.

[Valvaren]

See I don't see you as being informative, I don't take what you say as facts I take what you say as someone who likes everything done their way because they feel their way is best, and yes you are more then likely right but all I get from you is "My way or no way, you are killing your animal because you aren't doing it my way" I get that people can be thick but what you have to realize is what you are doing is just making everything harder on yourself. But you aren't much different then the people who don't want to listen to you because there are people who are telling you that your way of doing something is wrong and that "I don't care what you say or what people think" which makes you no better then the people who say "I don't care what you say or what you think i'm going to keep doing what i'm doing"

Thats my piece.

[Jay]

A sealed melamine enclosure, like i have, has no issues holding humidity, nor will it rot as melamine is impermeable to water. The only way it can rot is if water gets underneath its external coating - this cant happen when it is properly sealed.
i will listen to your comments and consider them alongside the info i get from my own expert
In my eyes that is a responsible keeper.

[Jay]

"I don't care what you say or what you think i'm going to keep doing what i'm doing".
His way is correct.

[Lankyrob]

In my eyes that is a responsible keeper.

Cheers Jay, and just for the record i wouldnt say that i was offended, i dont know the person putting letters onto a forum so how would i be.

As with all things in life different people have different opinions, it is p to us to take in as much information from as many sources as possible and make our own decision based on this.

[Valvaren]

I'm not saying what he is saying is wrong, I never stated that and I don't know anything about monitors all i'm saying is he is explaining things in a way that I feel alienates more people then it helps. My commented that you quoted was simply that he is upset people don't listen to him and say "I don't care what you say" but when I tell him I think there is a better way to explain things and make it easier for people to take without feeling like someone is flipping on them he gets all "I don't care what you say i'm doing it anyway" I just find it odd. To me all I get out of everything he says no matter the material is that he feels he is the only right way which puts me off. I just feel that he should work on his presentation and how he talks to people about stuff and he wouldn't run into to so much of the "I don't care what you say" kind of attitude.

[infernalis]

People.... Tone it down.


It's perfectly fine to exchange ideas, share information, learn and offer knowledge.... But it's not perfectly fine to argue about it.

I am in the middle of something right now, I promise to read every word after my customers have left... until then CHILL ;)

[Dehlida]

Thanks for pointing out some things Jay. People can gang up on me all they want, it really won't bother me. The facts are still facts, and the mt dew can I'm holding is still green no matter how much you may want to argue with it.

Rob, while I respect how you view things, have you ever come to consider that perhaps your friend is ignorant to monitor care? Are you saying you trust your one friend as a reputable source of information on an ackie monitor and his opinion is more valuable than say, proexotics? Email Robyn at proexotics, ask him about the benefits of deep dirt substrate. I've actually been to his facility, his ackies are all top notch, in great care, and he has A LOT of them. He produces enough of them and is reputable enough to have wait lists for his ackie monitors.

Go to varanus.nl, register an account, ask them "repti bark or dirt for an ackie monitor". Every single one will tell you dirt. Simple reason- these animals burrow. They use deep dirt burrows for basic health and husbandry needs. They regulate humidity, heat, digestion, sheds, hell it even helps manage their nails and provide stimulation. Every single person- including Crocdoc, Daniel Bennett, Lance, Vince etc will all agree on the use of deep dirt substrate as a standard for ackie care.

These are the simple facts, what benefit does your "Friend" claim of using bark? I just listed off plenty of reasons for deep dirt, reasons that are obvious and it's plain as day why you would use them. Seems like you have nothing to loose other than a tiny bit of money on a proper enclosure and some energy getting the dirt into the cage.

[Jay]

I woke him up for this. The reason he is standing up is because I set the lock on top of his cage and he was checking it out. I don't feed him daily. The reason I wear a glove is because his nails. His basking temp is 128, he has a 50/50 dirt and sand substrate that is 7 inches deep in the middle under his hide its 12 inches, a water dish he can fully submerge himself, a fogger because it is extremely dry in my apt. The cage is getting built longer on Wednesday afternoon, Its currently 5 or 6 feet. I would love to hear your thought on his attitude and behavior. I do not handle my Monitor often maybe once every other month, if that.

[Dehlida]

Video doesn't show up :P

[Jay]

Dang, hold on......

[Jay]

Sorry about the crappy quality, I cant find my Cannon.
DdnXLJhue7E

[Dehlida]

Hey Jay video works and I'm glad you posted it! From watching him he looks like a very healthy and inquisitive monitor, the fact he is able to tripod and get himself up off the ground says a lot, considering most savs are fat and can hardly walk so good job on that!

There are a couple things I noticed about your interaction directly with him.
He seems still hesitant of you, it may just be the glove- I've had many monitors who behave entirely different with a glove on- because of the "loose" feeling it gives, it isn't as stable as the human hand! I also understand the dread of the nails- one day you'll stop feeling them! I know I have several scars on both arms from monitor claws, and a day doesn't go by that people are asking "what the hell happened to your arm!" lol!

Based upon his posturing from what I could tell in the middle- he looks very puffed up when you are holding him. This is to make himself look bigger- in all reality, he's telling you "put me down". I also notice his tail, which is a bigger indication of what I said above. He's curling his tail around you in a way, I also am willing to bet he's probably gripping pretty hard with his nails. He's unsure of his balance while on your arm like that- it's pretty typical.

For handling him every month he seems to be doing well, my nile still hisses when I pick her up, and it's pretty normal and in my eyes is a sign of a healthy alert monitor. I would slow down slightly with the picking him up stuff though, he's telling you he doesn't like it right now, and until he learns to associate your arm with something good (food/coming out to explore), he will probably remain like this.

Of course- you already know about cage size. Also, try to get his substrate to be damper. It needs to be solid enough to hold shape when he creates tunnels!

[Jay]

Thanks, I personally don't want him to be completely tolerable to me. I don't like handling him much either. When I properly hold him i use two hands for better support, it was just a little difficult with the cam. Any thing else feel free to point out.

[Dehlida]

Thanks, I personally don't want him to be completely tolerable to me. I don't like handling him much either. When I properly hold him i use two hands for better support, it was just a little difficult with the cam. Any thing else feel free to point out.
Great attitude to have! I've never been a fan of the "look at my monitor he's super tame". To me most of them look abused/like they have given up. Nails aren't much fun are they? Just wait, he'll get even bigger, and those nails will hurt even worse! I will say though, indicus complex monitors have the worst nails, they just rip right through my hands.

[Kayla90]

His way of putting things is blunt yet accurate. Everyone should be mature enough now to not let some guy on the world wide web get under his skin. I would understand other experienced monitor keeps arguing his points, like you said you don't even have a lizard. If anyone reading his post is looking to obtain a monitor they should take his advice. When he "fought" with me i ARGUED back until I realized he has EXTREMELY valid and accurate points to be made. He obviously offended a member on hear, and now it appears everyone is about to gang up on him. Just remember not one experience monitor keepers has posted any actual facts that he is wrong.

I don't disagree, I was simply stating that my first reaction was to get offended that he seemed to be attacking people.. His advice is sound, and I would complete follow through as well as research more, but it was the personal attack on individual people that is unnecessary.

Reading through the following messages since my last post, I've noticed that Dehlida is being more informative then he is spending time attacking others way of doing things. It's a lot easier to take in the information you are sharing with us this way then when you start off attacking others. I in no way mean to seem as if I'm ganging up on you, I just wanted to offer my opinion that you seemed to be more harsh then you really needed to be. I've found all your information useful in fact, it helps build around all the other knowledge I've been building so that at the end of the day the animals get the best care they need.

[Dehlida]

It's not a personal attack against rob- it's an attack against his husbandry because it's wrong. For all I care Jason or Wayne can come posting poor husbandry and I'd say the exact same thing to them.. Generally- if I see monitors being poorly taken care of, I will jump on it, if people ask me for further advice or information- I'm more than willing to give it.

[infernalis]

For all I care Jason or Wayne can come posting poor husbandry and I'd say the exact same thing to them.. Generally- if I see monitors being poorly taken care of, I will jump on it, if people ask me for further advice or information- I'm more than willing to give it.

I respect that, really I do..

Mods are people too, first and foremost, we keep the peace, tidy up messes and assist those in need of help with forum features.

Aside from that, we are just humans who have a passion for critters, like the rest of you.

[2006gt]

hey dehlida can u post pics of your setup and monitors please i want to see how u keep your monitors. also i would like to know what species you keep and how long u have had the individual animals if thats not to hard for you! cause ur doing alot of talking i wanna see how ur setups are!

[Freebody]

jay, instead of the mister, i would just dump a few litters of water in the cage every couple day, its more natural imho, this is what i do, the humidity shoots up to the 70s, then down to the low 60s in the next couple days, and then rinse and reapeat, my sav seems to like it, hes always covered in mud on the wet days lol as well i recomend interacting with your sav on a daily basis, like already stated your sav is not completly comfortable with you, and when he is very large your not going to want him turning from timid and "tame" from growing a back bone and letting you know when he had enouph of being polite. I handle and interact with my sav every day, his cage is down stairs in a high traffic area where he can watch us not pay any attension to his pressence. i say this simply because i got a nile monitor a few years ago, when i got it, it was not as plassid as your nice little sav their, but it did puff up a little but was relativly a work in progress, well the bigger he got the worse he got, now im no proffesional by all deffinition of the word, but my care and handling is good, after all i was born into a home with reptiles and it been this way my entire life, so i dont honestly think i did it to him, but he did turn nasty and i used the same methode you are with him, i left him alone all the time where he could be left alone, handle him once a month if that, but my sav, i took a different approuch, i handle him like crazy, but on his terms, he comes to me to be handled and pet as hes looking for the food he thinks i have, when he want to walk off i Never stop him, but the interaction is still their at a high amount, and my sav has no stess/fear/puffing,hanging on when i hold him, nothing at all, and this goes with my dogs and when my ferret sits infront of him cage and watches him chill. just my 2 cents, i know you said you dont want to have a completly placid animal, but for him and for you its best hes as plassid as you can get him with out breaking him spirit. GL just wanted to add, if my sav was showing signs of not liking the high traffic area, then i would not have him their, but i would work to get him to that stage slowly.