Dart Frog Keeper Numbers, Frog Availability and Cost

[Duncan]

Just a Thought,

After seeing a few recent posts in a couple of forums here and there, I started to think about how many Canadians keep dart frogs on a regular basis? Probably over the last year or so (as long as I've had my frogs), I've seen maybe 10 (at most) names that have identified themselves as Canadians, come across the various "boards" that I "lurk" around. These were either regular contributors to forums and/or advertisers for frogs. Keeping in mind that there would probably be at least 5 or 10 times that number that don't post on the net (a guess), that still means there are only between 50 and a 100 Canadians keeping dart frogs (remember, these numbers are a stab in the dark, my gut feeling is that this number might even be significantly lower than the 100 speculation ). That just doesn't seem like a lot of people for a country of our size. What's the reason these great amphibians haven't caught on? Sure, you don't interact with them in the same way you can a ball python or leopard gecko, but tropical fish keepers abound while the dart frog enthusiasts are rare.

This brings me to my next point, I know a couple of the reasons that people don't keep darts is cost and availability. I only know of 3 individuals who regularly breed and supply frogs within the country (2 in Ontario and 1 on the west coast), although I'm sure there must be a couple more. The point is, that unless you live in proximity to these individuals, its going to cost the price of at least another frog to bring it to where you are (plus shipping in the winter also has risks . . . even if the breeder guarantees live arrival).

Which brings us to the cost. First of all, I think that the breeders of Canadian frogs are very reasonable in what they charge. Depending on what you're looking for, you can get started with some really nice, more "common," darts for $75 - 100 each CDN. I guess the problems add up when you want to get a small colony and/or you want to end up with a pair and so you need to buy 4 or 5! (plus the cost of the shipping puts you into the $500 - 600 range). Maybe that means only the fanatics and the determined few with resources can keep dart frogs?

I guess this brings me back to my first point, unless you search the net for a Canadian dart frog breeder (and again only one or two may ever appear in a search) the only exposure that "Joe Public" . . . "Future Dart Frog Keeper" . . . will get is if they happen to see one in a local pet store (usually a big chain store). It will usually be a huge price and will often be a single specimen (after all why bring in more than one, nobody in their right mind would ever spend that kind of money on two or more of these frogs . . . right?). Witness the single black and green D. auratus ($149.99), Powder-blue Tinc ($199.99), Green Striped Trivittatus ($139.99) and "Orange-striped Dart Frog"($164.99) for sale in a local pet store in my city. Incidently, the "orange-stripe" is their words not mine, I think it might be Phyllobates vittatus (which I thought was illegal in Alberta . . . but there's another issue too!), but it might be a Trivittatus too (I didn't get a great look, and having never seen either before, I wasn't exactly sure how to make the distinction).

Anyway, I'm rambling a bit, but I was curious as to what people thought. Are my numbers way off? What could the dart keepers of Canada do to increase their communication? to create a greater interest/demand? Do you think that this is even something that should be pursued? Maybe I'm jealous of the $25 US D. leucomelas that I see for sale fairly regulary south of the border, but it seems to me that if more people keep more frogs, the greater the knowledge that will be accummulated and in the end, greater availability and lower costs. Don't get me wrong, I would hate to see dart frogs go the way of the feeder goldfish (a "disposable" starter fish in many people's books), and I could never really see this happen, but it bothered me a bit when Laurier posted earlier in a different thread about E. tricolors being used as feeders!

Well, enough said. I don't know if I've coherently brought out anything that I originally intended to; but if nothing else I hope it will make for some interesting discussion.

Duncan

[Mark Pepper]

Some interesting thoughts Duncan,

I have been keeping darts for nearly 6 years now in Canada, and I can assure you it has been growing, and based on the numbers of orders I shipped out this year it is continuing to do so.

The prices in Canada have dropped considerably over the past couple of years, though they still may seem high at some of the pet stores you have to keep in mind that they either bought them from wholesalers, or from breeders and have to turn around to make a profit. The prices from Canadian breeders myself included, fall roughly inline with american prices, and I find it neccesary to keep my prices inline with the US market prices since i export animals to the US as well. But like you said they are reasonable, Ill explain why in a second.

Frogs may seem cheaper in the US, you mention 25$ leucs in the us, factor in the current exchange rate, I bought US$ a week or so ago, and pd $1.58cdn/US$ so that right there brings the the 25$ leuc to a $40cdn, then add the cost of importing $55 us CITES fees, $50us for an import export liscence from USF&W, plus the $95 US inspection fee, and all the time effort, and additional shipping costs, and you see that the $25 frog can easily become and $80-100 frog. Ive done this, and its not cheaper.

Shipping in Canada is about the same cost as in the US too. I use westjet whenevr possible, and it usually runs around 65$cdn, many american breeders use Delta Dash and that runs around $65 US, so actually more expensive. Unfortunately when air Canada is the only shipping option then you are looking at $100 plus. I ship all year round, and always gaurantee live arrival, I just sent an order to Calgary today.

I feel the dart frog hobby will continue to grow in canada, and globally, it is extremely popular in many European countries.

Just some of my insights from my personal experience.

[Rebecca]

I don't know about anyone else but I haven't ever bought any because their toxic. I may be wrong and I know even if I'm not there's some that's arn't harmful, but none the less that's the first reason I don't buy and also as you said the money. I think they are REALLY cool all those bright colors. Even if I did get into it as you said the shipping would KILL me. It's hard enough getting geckos shipped when the breeders are close to me. Anyway now I'M rammbling on.

Just my 2 cents.

[Mark Pepper]

Rebecca, I should clarify here that all cb dart frogs are completely harmless(nontoxic). Even in the wild only three species would pose a threat to your health, those being Phllobates terribilis, bicolor, and aurotaenia.

[Laurier]

As mark said in tha past year the dart frog hobby has grown alot in the past year. Thats because mark is not taking advantage of the rarety and he is offering high quality animals at a good price. Personally I did not like how cobalts were selling for 125 canadian for froglets and how alot of other froger were also high prices. I am hoping that I can get frogs going so that I can offer them to the public here in the west because alot of people don't want to get frogs from out eat due to the extra costs of shipping.

But Duncan if you want to contact me I will be ording frogs off mark again in a few months so if you want anything from him just talk to me. I am always willing to help out people starting to get there dart frog hobby going.

Laurier

[Duncan]

Mark,

Like I (and then you) said before I think that most prices for dart frogs in Canada are quite reasonable. I guess what I'd like to see is a day when the only cost factor that you have to keep in mind is the U.S./Canadian exchange rate (of course it would be even better if the $1.58 on the U.S. dollar was the other way 'round!). What I mean is, if the frogs were available in a major center in most every province, then you wouldn't need to factor in the CITES, licensing, import and shipping fees when you made a cost comparison. The $25 US leuc would truly be a $40 Cdn leuc. At this point then, competition based entirely on quality and service would set the price to some degree. Also, at these hypothetical lower prices do you think dart keeping would lose its "thrill" for some people? I would welcome the opportunity to keep more of these fantastic animals if I could afford them, but maybe some people are attracted by their cost and rarity? Just a thought.

By the way, when you talk about all of your expenses, as well as factoring in the countless hours you must spend arranging and picking up orders. . . never mind simply maintaining the frogs and their food (I sometimes find I'm spending more time with my fly cultures and cricket containers than the frogs, and I only have 6 darts and 4 mantellas, as well as some tads and froglets), I really appreciate the fact that your prices are reasonable, as Laurier mentioned. I'm not sure that if I was in your position I wouldn't be tempted to charge more. But please don't get any ideas Mark as I hope I'll be able to take up Laurier's offer this spring! (please keep in touch when you decide to order Laurier) Your auratus look great, any chance you'll have any leucs (I know not the $25 variety!) in the upcoming months? I'd love to get a hold of some. You mention in your classifieds you have some new species "cooking." Care to leak out what might be coming?

Take Care,
Duncan

[Laurier]

hey duncan,

I just recieved 3 of the new panama green and bronze auratus. What can I say, they are nice and are already 2/3 the size of my hawaiian auratus. I highly suggest these frogs for anyone but i remember that you really wanted the azureus. well either way I have both frogs from mark and they have to be the nicest frogs in my collection. With the results of the order that I recieved yesturday I have decided to do one in the next month or so, so If you want anything tell me and than we can arrange it with mark. Man, i love these new auratus but i can't wait ot get my first thumbnail.

Laurier

[Mark Pepper]

Hi Duncan, I think there will be a day, in the future when you will see prices that fall directly inline with the US prices. However inorder for this to happen the hobby has to grow some, and frogs have to become more readily available. Leucs are underpriced in the states right now in my opinion, and that because so many people had so much success with that they are selling them off cheap, or wholesaleing them to some of the big retailers, who inturn let them go really cheap so that they can turn a profit without having to feed them for too long. I think where leucs are at right now are where tricolour were in the US about 2-3 years ago. I remember when tricolours were frequently available for 10-15$ in the us, the result of this is they dropped nearly completely out of the hobby for a few years, and now people have begun to notice their abscence, and all of sudden prices are back up to $35 US, with some morphs going for $50+ . I wouldnt be surpised in the next couple of years to see leucs become relatively obscure, well maybe not obscure, but certainly not as popular/common as they are now, and the price will rice again to around 40-50$ where it had been for several years. In canada there arent that many leucs , and even fewer, if any breeding them right now, which is why the price is higer than the equivelent us dollar prices. Supply and demand.
Which brings me to your next point, if the prices drop, will people lose interest? Some will yes, others wont. Those into them strictly for the money will stop keeping them if they cant make as much a profit on them, while it will allow other who couldnt previously afford to get involved with dendrobates get started.
I personally feel that this hobby/industry as whole has a lot of growing to do not only in Canada, but in North America as well. I think the future of this will be nice naturalistic vivaria, landscaped with a variety of bromeliads, orchids etc, and a greater variety of plants than what is commonly available at home depot or the building box
as for the new species you are wondering about, I will have some big species, and some really small species avaialbe in the next few months, but this really isnt the place to be advertising.
I have enjoyed this thread.

[DragnDrop]

Originally posted by Mark Pepper
In canada there arent that many leucs , and even fewer, if any breeding them right now, which is why the price is higer than the equivelent us dollar prices. Supply and demand.

I find leucs aren't hard to breed, but extremely seasonal. Last year mine (2.3) started breeding for the first time. Almost as soon as I removed the eggs, there was a competition to be the first pair to make some more. Since it was the first breeding seaon, most of the first clutches were infertile, but the number of eggs was rather high for such a small frog - usually 8-10 eggs, some clutches had 12 (per female). I'd been told they would stop breeding when it got to warm, and sure enough, no matter what I did in summer, they wouldn't breed - nothing like a prolonged heat wave. Now they're breeding again.

This leads me to think that leucs can be pricey or dirt cheap, depending on season. Unlike many darts who breed anytime the conditions are right, what I've evperienced and been told, leucs go beyond the immediate environment in the tank and are also affected by the outside world such as weather and moon phase. With that in mind, late summer and late winter would be an expensive time to buy leucs, fall and spring, when they'd be morphed and ready to go would be cheaper.

Just my version of the pirce discussion.