Do of the Canadian members mind...

[Them and Us]

if i hop the border and come hang out for a long while. ha cos they are talking about reinstituting the draft over here and I'm definitely not about that.

[Pythonian]

dude i hear ya.... 19 years old... YIKES!!! .. dude.. let's carpool

Mike

[Them and Us]

I'm all for that.

[Lisa]

but look at the benefits... Get sent over to some country and enjoy the wonderful side effects of chemical warfare.

[Them and Us]

oh well nevermind then....I mean since you put it that way. ha

[Alicewave]

I don't think women get drafted but I'm with you, I'm sick of this country.

[Nanashi04]

I'm pretty sure women don't get it either - it doesn't really matter since I'm not 18 yet. In fact - no one in my family would go... My dad is a single parent, my brother is the last carring our name, same with my cousin... I guess the only ones that could go are some of my Uncles and my other cousin...

I just hope it doesn't come to that... scary thinking about it, you know?

[tai_pan1]

This entire post has made me sick! First, I served in the United States Marine Corps for 10 years and am proud of it. Second, I am proud of my country and what it stands for. Alicewave, if your sick of it, leave! See if you can travel the world and find a better country. I can guarantee that you can't. As for all you whiners complaining about getting drafted, don't worry. This country will never institute the draft unless our shores are threatened by an enemy. It would be political suicide and that's not what the politicians go to Washington for.

I am thankful however that previous generations of young American males did not have the same self serving, self involved, self centered attitude that the young males who posted here have. If they did, we'd all be speaking German, Japaneese, or Russsian. Thankfully young men rose up and fought, and yes died, to preserve American ideals of freedom and democracy. And before you tell me it's all about oil, it's not. At the present time, the industrialized world gets less than 3% of it's oil from Iraq. Yes there are huge reserves there, but there are huge reserves elsewhere as well. Should anyone "forget" what this is actually about, I ask you to revisit what you were feeling on the morning of September 11, 2001. That's what it's about! Saddam is a fanatic who will do anything to stay in power and increase his power. He has used chemical weapons on the Iranians, he's used chemical weapons on his own people, he has anyone that he believes is even slightly against him executed. It is even documented that he has raped women in public. These are all documented facts. It's obvious that the man is not playing with a full deck, and now he is developing nuclear weapons.

Imagine how you'll feel the morning you wake up and find out that a small nuclear device was detonated in Buffaloe, or Groton Ct. I'm sure you guys will be the first yelling "how could we let this happen?" "Why did the CIA, FBI, President, military (take your pick) let this happen?" It will happen because of the attidude of individuals such as yourselves!

Mike

[honduranfreekk]

tai_pan1 I am Canadian and i would have 2 agrea with you on what you have posted about all the great men and woman that have served and made a difference and they did.there is so much going on in the country,s like iraq and other places that yes something has 2 be done and that is one of the way,s i agrea.I just think every one is so sick of war and pain and suffering.I dont post often and shut my mouth but i do think you where a bitt harsh in your post.Now if i offended you i apoligise as this is not my intent.Just my 2 cent,s

[Pixie]

See if you can travel the world and find a better country. I can guarantee that you can't.


Tai_Pan: I have an issue with this statement you made... Are you saying that the U.S. is the best country in the world? How many countries have you LIVED in for a significant amount of time other than the U.S. to make such a statement? I don't think there is a perfect country in the world but there are many wonderful ones including the U.S., Canada, European countries, and many more. I find it in bad taste to say to someone that they wont find anything better than such and such a country.

As for the situation with Iraq, I am of the opinion that the U.S. and all other countries for that matter should do everything they can to stop Saddam before a terrible disaster happens.

Pixie

[josefg]

Originally posted by tai_pan1
See if you can travel the world and find a better country. I can guarantee that you can't.

Man you couldn't have said something as close minded as that!!

It's obvious that the man is not playing with a full deck, and now he is developing nuclear weapons.

How do you know? As far as I know the UN inspectors have found nothing yet...

Thankyou

[tai_pan1]

Pixie, Several. I agree wholeheartedly with you that there are many wonderful countries in addition to the USA. Japan has wonderful culture and some really beautiful geographic features. The European countries have the old castles, the Black Forrest, the Canals of Venice The Leuve (sp?) London Bridge ecterea etcetera, but when it comes to having a whole package, freedom, cultural diversity, geographic diversity, ethic diversity, economic opportunity, educational opportunity, the ability to speak out (as some have done in this forum) for or against the government, the ability to redress grievances etcetera, no other country comes close. There are a lot of countries out there that I absolutely love, Canada and England are at the top of my list. They are true friends and allies of the United States.

[mykee]

Tai Pan1, WOW, I would much sooner deal with chemical warfare than to be near you with all that hot air you're blowing out your a** about the US. (insert chuckle here). You said you would be hard-pressed to find a country as good to live in as the US? Well, you live in New Jersey, SIMPLE!! You should just hop in your tank, or Jeep, or Hummer and look at a map and drive UP (North) for a few hundred kilometres (the ratio is 1:1.6 Rambo) and you will find the greatest country in the whole damn world! (not that I'm biased or anything) We have nary a violent bone in our collective bodies. Are ALMOST as neutral as Switzerland. Have WAY better beer. Our battles are carried out on a slab of ice with some sticks and a puck, not with guns. We welcome diversity, we're not threatened by it. Our military may be a mere piss in the bucket compared to your guys, but we live a better life without armed conflict. And lastly, we don't feel the need to CONSTANTLY go around telling everyone that we are the best country in the world, (we ALL know you are really trying to convince yourselves). My opinion, therapy for 350,000,000 people trying to get help with a SUPERIORITY COMPLEX.

[eyespy]

Well, tai pan1, I'd have to say that draft vs. volunteerism and traditional war vs. a war on terrorism are very separate issues.

My family has a long military tradition and we are proud of it. My paternal grandfather carried shrapnel in his lungs from WWI for over 60 years. My mom nearly had to give birth to me alone because my dad was in the Navy. Fortunately he was granted a short leave and arrived at the hospital just minutes before I did. My uncle Buddy came home from the Korean war with a Purple Heart and a bride. My uncle Joe came home from Vietnam with several medals, but the war was very hard on him and he seldom talks of it so I don't know the details. We are very proud of these volunteers who gave so much to their country. We are also proud of 2 of my cousins who are serving in the Navy right now.

Nonetheless, my brothers are in their 20's and we are scared crapless that they might be sent to the Middle East. Kooks and terrorists don't get stopped by traditional military efforts if conflicts in Northern Ireland and the Israel/Palestine areas are any indicator. Folks pop out of hiding, perform their atrocities, and go back into hiding while innocent people die.

I'm all for the CIA and similar intelligence/spy agencies taking out Hussein, but I am deathly afraid of the bloodshed and suffering a traditional military effort to do so would cause and fear for my brothers' safety should it come to that. I would think none the less of them should they choose to evade the draft. However, I would be proud of them should they choose to volunteer, full knowing the risks they would face. Whatever their choice, I would support them with all my heart.

I believe the choice should be up to them, not Congress and the Chiefs of Staff. Not every young man is capable of giving his all for his country, but that doesn't mean they don't love the United States of America in their own way.

[Lisa]

Originally posted by tai_pan1
This entire post has made me sick! First, I served in the United States Marine Corps for 10 years and am proud of it. Second, I am proud of my country and what it stands for. Alicewave, if your sick of it, leave! See if you can travel the world and find a better country. I can guarantee that you can't. As for all you whiners complaining about getting drafted, don't worry. This country will never institute the draft unless our shores are threatened by an enemy. It would be political suicide and that's not what the politicians go to Washington for.
{snip}
Mike


It's nice that you volunteered, that's your perogitive, and some thing you can be proud of. However in the 50's and 60's there was a draft to send soldiers overseas to Korea and Viet Nam to fight in another countries CIVIL WAR. Thats where the american war machine lost all credibility with the american public. It's one thing to fight for your country, it's another thing to be forced to fight for another country.


As for the usa being the best in the world, it hasn't been rated #1 in a long time. Canada comes in 1st quite often.

[Rebecca]

I think this whole thread missed the point. I think the reason it was posted is because the person didn't want to go and die in some country. I don't blame them. War scares the he11 outta me. As for your saying that their self-serving and that, and that the men back then weren't. That may be the fact for back then but they also didn't have near the weapons they do now and also they didn't know the side effects that war and the weapons can have on a person. I hope that it never comes to anything like war for us. But you also need to realize EVERYONE has their own feeling and thoughts, they may or may not be wrong but NO ONE has the right to say their wrong. And NO ONE has the right to make people feel bad because they don't want to go to war. My grandfather was in WWII and it did NO good to him. I don't blame people for not wanting to go to war. And just because they don't want to does NOT mean they don't love their country.

Just my 2 cents.

[Tim_Cranwill]

Well said Rebecca and you did it without country bashing, which is as ignorant as hair color bashing. I know a girl form Poland who thinks Poland is the best country in the world and good for her. I would choose Canada but I am incapable of making an educated decision as I'm sure 99.9% of us are.

I wasn't going to post in this useless thread, which didn't start off useless. Rebecca, however, made me want to praise her well thought out post.

Now, on the subject of war... no thanks. I'll keep my comments to myself:)

Peace guys.

[Them and Us]

World War I , World War II were fought in defense when hard evidence was produced that we were in trouble. Pearl Harbor being the catalyst for our involvement in World War II and The Zimmerman Note in World War I along with other things for both of these. the simple fact that Iraq has nuclear weapons and tortures people does not make it so we should go over there and attack. I don't agree with torturing but how about one of these african nations thats stones women to death for adultery. we are not threatening them. plus i just find War asenine. i do not agree with it . if its for defense fine let it be. for independance from a foreign oppressor then i'm for that. but because one has massive weaponry does not give us the right to tell them they are wrong and we are right and we will punish you. I respect that you love your country and served in the marines, a have a good friend in the marines and one in the navy. that is their choice. I do love this country. I don't want to really live anywhere else. i do like it here. but we all have our opinions and my opinion that this particular war that's bound to happen is ridiculous and I won't take part. i won't be drafted. we all have our right to say what we want .as of now anyway. I apologize If i have offended you. it was not my intention.

[Pythonian]

we have no reason to be in this war i'm not gonna die so bush can make a few bucks like johnson did in vietnam!


Mike

[dead bob]

Originally posted by Them and Us
World War I , World War II were fought in defense when hard evidence was produced that we were in trouble. Pearl Harbor being the catalyst for our involvement in World War II

With this reasoning , we should wait until Saddam uses chemical, biological, or nuclear weapons against us, then we attack. This is unacceptable to me. The kind of damage that can be inflicted by these weapons far out weighs the damage done at Pearl Harbor. And it was this same type of reasoning that lead to the attack in the first place. We sat idly by as the Japanese invaded China and the rest of the South Pacific, inflicting untold millions of casualties. We and the rest of the world are guilty of the same isolationist attitude when it came to the Germans and 6 million Jews lost their lives.

the simple fact that Iraq has nuclear weapons and tortures people does not make it so we should go over there and attack.

This is true. But it is a well documented fact that he supports terrorism and supports the destruction of the US. Remember, he pays the famillies of Palestinian suicide bombers $25,000.00. He has no fear of using weapons of mass destruction against his own people. Why would he refrain from using them against us?

I do love this country. I don't want to really live anywhere else. i do like it here. but we all have our opinions and my opinion that this particular war that's bound to happen is ridiculous and I won't take part. i won't be drafted.

Not wanting to be drafted or go fight a war is understandable. I served four years in the Marine Corps and I did not want to go to war either. I dont think the majority of people do.

we all have our right to say what we want .as of now anyway.

Remember why you have that right and your others. Your rights are covered in the blood of the men and women who fought in the past. Is it right for you to slip across the border to avoid fighting and let others do the fighting, and possibly die? Then to come back when all is said and done and enjoy the same freedoms that those who fought and died lost? Or those that stayed behind and contributed in what ever way, small or large, enjoy? I think not.

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Benjamin Franklin

If you do not want to be drafted, pick up your telephone or write to your congressman and tell him your feelings.

I did not sacrifice four years of my live in the Marine Corps nor have I spent risking the last 5 and half years of my life as a law enforcement officer protecting those who would not stand in the service of this nation if called to. Now I dont mean you have to go fight and die. I personally would not force anyone to do that and I am against the draft being reinstituted. But I would ask everyone to contribute in some way. I just can not stomach anyone who would turn their backs on their own country in time of need.

Just keep in mind, the world as we know it is not a friendly place. With the advancements in technology, it has gotten alot smaller and as such, much more dangerous.

This was not meant as an attack against you but an offer of opposing opinions in an effort to continue this dialogue in a constructive manner.

[dead bob]

Originally posted by josefg
As far as I know the UN inspectors have found nothing yet...

Thankyou

They have also stated they are only in the very beginning of inspections and it will take much more time before they have a definite answer, one way or the other. Basically they have said it's too soon to tell. They have also reported that there are several problems with Iraq's weapons disclosure given to the UN on 12/07/02. They have also reported 500 artillery shells filled with mustard gas are missing along with other chemical weapons that they had documented prior to their expulsion in 1998. The evidence is mounting and it's not looking good.

[katev17]

With reference to the whole "which country is better?" debate, I'd just like to mention that Canada is a much safer place to live in.. I don't know if anyone here saw Michael Moore's "Bowling for Columbine" documentary (if you haven't, you really, really should), but he showed that Canadians have more guns per household than Americans, yet the gun to murder ratio in Canada is an extremely large amount lower compared to the states. Now to me, I feel that a country in which I can be free, safe, and make my own desicions in is the best one to live in. (make sense?) I don't mean any offence to anybody, but when I go to America I don't have the same comfort level as when I'm in Canada... I haven't experienced anything negative while there myself, but it's a general feeling that I, and many other people I know, have when we go there. And hey, stereotypes and generalizations all start from somewhere right?

As for the war/draft issue, I'm pro-choice so whatever you guys feel is fine by me. People shouldn't take things so personally... tai_pan, it's fine to have your own opinion but just because somebody doesn't feel the same way you do, it doesn't mean they're completely despicable. It seems you live by the old "Everyone's entitled to my opinion" notion.. oh well to each his own, right?

Have a great day guys,
Kate

[andrea88]

Wow Mikee, WELL SAID!!!!


Mike, (Tai_Pan1)
Most other people do not view war as the all glorious event that you do.
Most see it as sick, brutal and unnessecary.

Until we stop letting men with small weenies rule the world, you wont see an end to it any time soon!

I, for one would never give my life fighting for someone elses set of beliefs and ideals. For my own? Of course! How can you call anyone selfish for this?

:)

[JasonBrennan]

I don't think that "anyone" wants to go to war and die. I do think, however, that anyone who "border jumps" to avoid having to fight is a coward. I am sorry, but that is what I think. To anyone that is "sick and tired of this country"....get the hell out!!! No one is forcing you to live here. This is a free country, and you are free to leave it if that is what you want. Go ahead up to Canada and live there, if you like. I don't have to many problems with Canada (yes, I have been there many, many times). I don't agree with some of the policies or laws that are in effect there, but that is their business.

All I can say is that if you have lived your life in this country, enjoyed the freedoms that so many men died to give you, and then you run away when there is a possiblity that you might have to fight too, then go ahead and leave. But, don't come back!!! This country is free because of brave men, not cowards!

Just my 2 cents, take it for what ever you think it is worth.

[Them and Us]

the way i mean certain things seems to be taken otherwise by other people. thats understandable as this is the internet. it happens. i'm sure i take things differntly than others mean as well sometimes. so I'm done. a debate can go on forever. this was really supposed to be like a funny haha post. just kidding around. but yeah. back to the herps

[Tim_Cranwill]

Right on! Anyone here interested in herps anymore???

[honduranfreekk]

LOL

[hip]

I have read all this and hung on every word many of us have through our forebearers given so much to ensure what we have now!"Never has so much been owed to so few by so many" Sir Winston Churchill The youth of today get to see live on tv the true cost of war,they know what lies ahead, were the youth of the past only saw war in still pictures that were sensored this all changed with Viet Nam and live footage. We must draw a line against the darkness no matter the cost not just for ourselves but for all who will take our place in the future.



We must stand as one world one planet united for there to ever be a future.To have come so far and to have learned so little, we cite the struggles of the past and yet we have learned nothing!We can cure deadly disease, grow crops in barren unfurtile lands feeed the starving, house the homeless,and yet we can also kill one another.As much as our humanity got us into this it is only our humanity that will get us out.

"It is said that the future is always born in pain.The history of war is the history of pain.If we are wise what is born of that pain ,matures into the promise of of a better world.because we can no longer afford the mistakes of the past" (J M S)



Peace


Hip

[Pythonian]

-duuuuuhhh... whats a herp?

Mike

;)

[dead bob]

Originally posted by Them and Us
the way i mean certain things seems to be taken otherwise by other people. thats understandable as this is the internet. it happens. i'm sure i take things differntly than others mean as well sometimes. so I'm done. a debate can go on forever. this was really supposed to be like a funny haha post. just kidding around. but yeah. back to the herps

Never joke/comment about:

1.Politics. I include patriotism in this.

2. Religion

Nothing fires people up more than these two topics. :D

Now how about those herps? :)

[Tim_Cranwill]

LOL!!! Yup. I've been to a few parties where two people start talking politics or religion them more people get involved and the party just DIES!!!! I love a good debate but at the right time!:)

Now back to your regularly scheduled program....

[katev17]

I have an extremely patriotic friend and when I joked about Canada's military/navy/whatever situation, he compared me to Hitler... believe me I've never brought up anything of the sort again, as I don't have the energy/knowledge to argue with him... but Hitler?! Common... I guess some people don't see outside their own little box, lol ...

[tai_pan1]

WOW! I came home from work and it looks like I started a firestorm! That was not my intention. First, to all my Canadian friends who displayed their Nationalistic pride, All Right! I wish The first two posters on this thread had as much national pride in the USA. My intent was not to demean or berate your country. If I had to live anywhere other than the US, Canada would be it.

I thank Deadbob for his post, I couldn't have said it better. And to Andrea88, I agree that war is horrible and grotesque, but I am also a realist and understand that at times war is necessary. Only the sick in mind and spirit crave war. I forget who said it, but I remember a quote "For evil to triump, good men only need to do nothing"

With that, I am going to bed.

Mike

[Them and Us]

comments i have but i hold back.




yes dead bob you are right. rel

[Them and Us]

comments i have but i hold back.




yes dead bob you are right. religion and politics gets everyone fired up. so does wheather or not Elvis is really dead. i say yes. but there are some great impersonators out there.

[norman]

wow.... i agree with the last reply before mine. people get SO defensive. Im probably just too young to understand or whatever you want to think,

[Seanebones]

Tai Pan1:
This will probably alienate me from some people here but that is life,
First of all, thank you for serving our country. Thank you for defending my freedoms that I enjoy on a daily basis. Thank you for having the testicular fortitude to put your life on the line, for the freedom of all Americans. I have nothing against Canada at all, but believe me folks, you would be the first to hide under our apron if, and the way it looks now, when, the real **** hits the fan. Being as neutral as Switzerland sounds real nice until you need the USA to pull your *** out of the fire, and you will if things keep heading down the path we are on. My Father is an immigrant from Ireland who fought in WWII in the British Army with the Royal Irish Fusiliers 2nd Battalion. I am not in a great hurry to leave my family and go risk my life in a foreign land, but someone has too, and If called, I guess it would be time for a nut check, and I would go, PROUDLY.
The rest of you can take that how you want to take it.

[Seanebones]

Oh, I should have kept that to myself. Oh well, I meant every word not express it?

[Lisa]

Originally posted by Seanebones
Tai Pan1:
This will probably alienate me from some people here but that is life,
First of all, thank you for serving our country. Thank you for defending my freedoms that I enjoy on a daily basis. Thank you for having the testicular fortitude to put your life on the line, for the freedom of all Americans. I have nothing against Canada at all, but believe me folks, you would be the first to hide under our apron if, and the way it looks now, when, the real **** hits the fan. Being as neutral as Switzerland sounds real nice until you need the USA to pull your *** out of the fire, and you will if things keep heading down the path we are on. My Father is an immigrant from Ireland who fought in WWII in the British Army with the Royal Irish Fusiliers 2nd Battalion. I am not in a great hurry to leave my family and go risk my life in a foreign land, but someone has too, and If called, I guess it would be time for a nut check, and I would go, PROUDLY.
The rest of you can take that how you want to take it.

Canada isn't neutral, last time I checked we were in NATO, NORAD and the UN. Canada participated in both WWI and WWII (with out waiting for the war to be 1/2 over before joining in either) fighting along side the British. Ever hear of Vimy Ridge? Flanders Field? Normandy? Dieppe? Canada was there. My Grandfather (a Canadian) was part of the RCAF fighting along with the RAF.

The USA was reluctant to join either of these wars. They prefered to be merchents supplying the war machine, making money off of the countries fighting for the liberty of the western world. They were dragged into WWI by German subs sinking American supply ships disguised as cruise ships and into WWII by the Japanese assult on Pearl Harbour.

Canada since then has participated in many peacekeeping missions and even has supplied troops in America's "War on Terrorism". Do these sound like the actions of a neutral country?

As for asking the USA to come to Canada's rescue last I remember it was the USA that was asking for troops for their war.

Canada has provided men to fight when needed, with out requiring the draft. Canada may not have the standing army the USA has, but when it comes to a crunch Canada is there waiting.

[Dunner]

everyone is saying there are so many good countries like the us, canada, and european countries and i haven't heard anyone mention ausrtalia, i mean really, look at all the herps!!!

[Dunner]

i don't know about anyone else, but i'm a proud canadian, patriotic all that stuff, but i would go over seas to fight in a second, it might be the US wanting to go, but it will affect everyone, so if maybe i can d something to help, by all means i will. everyone says no war nooo, well really are we going to sit saddam down and tell him he's not being really nice, and that he has to behave, no, sometimes excessive force must be used before something happens, and trust me, leave saddam long enough and something happened, then everyone who was against war, and said "ohhh it's all about oil" will be saying, how could you let this happen, wah wah wah just me 2 cents anyways

[Rebecca]

I'm saying no war because good people die and get hurt. I know it will happern but when WWIII comes along who's going to survive?? No one because everyone has their own nucs and crap. Everyone will end up dying. I am not looking on the dark side, just how things will end up. It does not matter if you go and fight over seas or if you stay home and fight. Everyone will be involed even if they don't want to be. And no one will be on anyone's side. Look at all the mass destruction (sp?) weapons almost EVERY country has, how meny would survive?? Somepeople may say WWIII come on arn't you being a little extream?? No I don't think I am. If the USA starts a massive war, then Canada will be on it too and if Canada is in it then there goes everyone. I'm not saying Canada is better I'm saying that once we're in we have enough friends AND foes that everyone would jump in. And as for boarder jumpers being cowards, I respect your opinion I just thinks it's not always right for everyone who jumps. But as I said we're all going to end up killing ourselfs off, so it does not matter where you are. So in general I'm saying this whole out of hand thread is just moot. Everyone will ALWAYS disagree with someone else, and in this case it does not matter. And I totally agree that Australia has awesome herps!! ;)

[katev17]

everyone is saying there are so many good countries like the us, canada, and european countries and i haven't heard anyone mention ausrtalia, i mean really, look at all the herps!!!

So true! Go Australia!!!

[Them and Us]

Australia rocks. Australia churned out Mel Gibson.

[Sean_.E.]

This is just my personal oppinion but I would not really like to live in the usa. Im am a proud Canadian. I think that the US (or bush at least) just WANTS a war and also wants to run the world. He doesnt want any country to have more power than the USA. The USA has used nuclear,biological,chemical weapons on many countries. I don't like what saddam does either I think the man is a screwed in the head! Now don't get me wrong I think the USA has some AMAZING qualities, nice places and people. I just dont like the way Bush acts, at times he makes me feel sick. As for the drafting issue, I would be scared $#!+less! OH and one more thing Australia is amazing!...lol

[Dom]

there is no better country than Australia .. even though i have never beeen there ..

And i am sooooo proud to be canadian!

[Dunner]

honestly though, i think australia would be a great place to live, it's almost just like canada if you think about it. when is the last time anyone has heard, those damn aussies, we're going to have to go to war with them, or whos ever heard of an australian terrorist.......plus does anyone know who Yahoo Serious is??? i mean come on, he came from there....young einstein for god sakes

[rattekonigin]

Young Einstein was the bomb!

[katev17]

Woohoo! Really can't wait to go to Australia! :D