Wtf is my burm doing?

[RandyRhoads]

My burms always been a mood A hole, never calm. The last few days he's been having a hard time shedding. Last night I noticed his tail curled up. This morning I took him out to soak in the tub and noticed it looks like he defecated and it got trapped in the skin ( see video) and he can't unwrap his tail from the ball. He's flailing around like a fish out of water. Is this possibly IBD/ some sort of neurological disease? Or just a pissy burm in pain? His movement makes me think something else is seriously wrong?

The first video shows his balled up tail. Still uploading the second that shows him flailing around at dial up speed.

‪Burms bad shed‬‏ - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1h5K0vE1y0)

[Gungirl]

:( aww I can't help you but I hope it goes away with the shed...

[KD35WIN.AS.ONE]

Wow ive never seen anything like that... Time for a trip to the Vet... SOON.

[Coffee Black]

If he doesn't get rid of that soon I would get it checked by a herp vet. Check for a rectal prolapse ( Inverted rectum.) There are a bunch of home remedies for them but I would try to find a vet who handles reptiles before I ever tried one. Good luck man ! From all the videos and things I've read it doesn't look like IBD. IBD usually has more upper body twisting and inversion and they don't eat. Your burm been eating?

[Freebody]

vets trip real soon!!

[Coffee Black]

Could just be scales covering cloaca or impaction. Head to a herp vet. Seriously, they are not usually very expensive.

[NennaMeerkat]

Man that looks painful! As others have said...get him to a Herp Vet soon! Hope everything goes well and please, keep us updated!!

[ilovemypets1988]

please note that the following should only be done in desperation and in an emergency!!!

right, firstly i can read that hes aggressive but that you will have to put up with im affraid.

put him into a bath for 5 mins - and when i refer to bath time i do mean for only 5 mins at a time ok,

make sure you have 2 towels with you as ur gunna need them.

this is what to do:

bath him,
then wrap his tail in a towel just above the shed area,
use the other towel to cover his head; it will help to calm him down alittle.
gently grasp the towel covering the tail (same sort of grab as if you was holding a steering wheel while driving, firm but not tight)
get your snake to snake to slither through the towel.

then just repeat until the shed has removed but if after 30 mins, nothing happens then go to the vet as theres an underlining problem

hope that helps.

[RandyRhoads]

While he was soaking he defecated so I don't think there's any problem with impaction or prolapse. I have to get the second video uploaded showing him flailing, it's weird right? He's always acted weird like this but this is a little more extreme. Somethings been up with him since I got him, and it seems to be getting worse and worse. Instead of calming down he's more fiesty and strange. I don't mean somethings up like the common RI but something neurologicaly. As you might have seen he flattens his ribs to almost being flat, my northern pacific rattlesnakes act loopy and do this too. Any chance he caught something from them to make him act this way?

Coffee Black I don't know where you live but the closest vet that takes herps to me is a couple hours, they're expensive, and they suck.

[NennaMeerkat]

I saw your second video you had on your Youtube account and I am not seeing anything other than a pissed off snake that is probably in a bit of pain from a bad shed getting hung up on his tail. He also looked like from your two videos what my little hoggie does when she wants to get out of my hand. I am not really seeing anything that would suggest brain damage or something like that. Just stressed cause of bad shed + pain + being in a place it doesn't want to be.

[RandyRhoads]

Here's the second one. It's not as bad as the stuff I didn't catch. Even when he was out of the water he was almost "jumping" straight up, flattening out and rolling over and over left and right .

‪Burms bad shed2‬‏ - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEir3wrnCXw)

[NennaMeerkat]

As I said before all I see is flailing due to stress and a stuck shed. If his head was lolling around and him unable to stay "upright" then I think there would be an issue. However his back half seems to be the part really rolling and that is probably because of the amount of discomfort he is feeling in his tail end.

[NennaMeerkat]

THIS snake has IBD. Is yours doing this?

‪snake with ibd‬‏ - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZrDfW9-4g8)
‪Inclusion Body Disease (in a red tail boa)‬‏ - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBHmHgfAlao&feature=related)
‪Inclusion Body Virus‬‏ - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqG6Yxovu08&feature=related)

[ilovemypets1988]

just do what i said to do and everything will be fine, ive used that method before with a bad shed on my boa and it worked, within 10 minutes of going through the towel, the shed was gone and he settled down straight away!!

[Jenn_06]

In the last vid i see nothing wrong my retic hates baths and will do the same thing but with the tail can you take pics of it? After the bath did you try to help take some of the shed off the tail and see if that would help. Hope everything will work out good luck.

[Will0W783]

As others have mentioned, you are not dealing with neurological issues- it looks to me like you are dealing with impaction, or possibly prolaspsed rectal tissue. The snake is flailing and flipping because it's in pain and can't straighten out its tail with the stuck shed there.
Regardless of his temperament, it's up to you to get that stuck shed off of him and help him out- it's not fair to let him stay uncomfortable like that. I've honestly never seen a stuck shed that caused the tail to kink up like that though.
I would say if you get the shed off and his tail curling doesnt' improve, get him to a vet ASAP. Something is not right, but honestly it's hard to tell unless you can get some better, focused, close-up pictures of the tail.
I hope it all works out ok...he's a good-looking snake.

[stephanbakir]

Vet for sure, but the way you are hooking him might have something to do with his pissyness, try to avoid flailing the hook.

[ilovemypets1988]

IMO in this sort of situation its better to use ur hands and have a feel for the bad shed, might help it alittle

[Gungirl]

It looks like it could be a burn..Is there any chance he could have gotten burned on a Uth or anything? I also agree that the way you are tossing the hook around could be one reason why he is so pissy ...

[stephanbakir]

It looks like it could be a burn..Is there any chance he could have gotten burned on a Uth or anything? I also agree that the way you are tossing the hook around could be one reason why he is so pissy ...
Its more the flinging towards the burms face at 0:09 you pulled on the burm and it turned towards you calmly, but I guess you got scared or something and flicked him with the hook just missing his face.
You need to get over your fear of getting bitten now, before he/she gets bigger. That does not look in any way to be an aggressive animal, its injured, in a tub of water that's constantly dripping with a person manipulating her while shes injured and shes still calm.
AND you dropped her at 0:18 and she was still calm.
If you were wondering why she was "flailing around" in the second video, watch it closely. Not only was she not aggressive but she was trying to get away, her badly kinked tail was hooked on the doll of some sort that pulls on the drain plug, so she was making no progress.

[ilovemypets1988]

right randy, numberous members have already explained what the problem is and ive already told u how to solve it.

if you cant handle the animal and help it regardless of getting bitten, then you simply shouldnt have it, i have a burm and i couldnt care less what happens to me, if he got into that sort of trouble, i would be there with my bare hands trying to help him get bk to being comfortable even if that means getting bitten or worse.

you need to get that shed off him asap or he will loose his tail as the reason its curled up is more than likely becos of lack of blood supply as the shed is cutting it off.

now either sort it out or get rid of the snake, ur choice but do whats best for ur animal.

sorry if this seems strong and offends people but it has t be said and wayne i really do apologize for the outbreak

[Jay]

Get a wet face cloth and stroke his tail, you need to get that shed off. You also need to learn how to properly handle that snake.

[RandyRhoads]

Whoa people. Calm down it's not a problem to hold it to get the shed off. I'm not afraid of getting bit it's not big enough to do anything terrible. I know the hooking looked like crap sometimes I was intentionaly trying to prod it to get it to move it's tail around for the video and other times it simply kept sliding off. This is my only snake that wont cooperate and ride the hook, normally I would tail him to keep him from falling off, but seeing as there was an issue with the tail I was unsure about, as well as trying to hold a camera.............. ................

Stephanbakir- Went back and looked at :09 the hook slipped off and up towards his face, I would never intentionally "flick" a snakes face with that speed and force.


i know you guys love snakes so do I no need to beat a dead horse..........


I will go soak and gently remove the little bit I didn't get off yesterday, and see if he's getting better or worse.

[stephanbakir]

There are python hooks that are wider, the reason the bigger snakes don't like thin hooks is because they don't offer any support. The python hooks are wide and while they can lift a heavy bodied snake, they are better for pulling.

[RandyRhoads]

There are python hooks that are wider, the reason the bigger snakes don't like thin hooks is because they don't offer any support. The python hooks are wide and while they can lift a heavy bodied snake, they are better for pulling.


I'll have to look into one. My 8' female wouldn't even fit on mine if i tried, and it'd be nice to have one for feeding time for her.

[stephanbakir]

Look at monstersnakesforever, they sell the best hooks I believe.

[RandyRhoads]

Some awesome snakes on there but that's all I see for sale, snakes.

[stephanbakir]

Message a mod that section of the forum is down for some reason, they are still for sale I believe.

[RandyRhoads]

So I got most of it off after a soak and underneath it looks like the scales are almost glued together. Also looks like he doesn have a prolapsed rectum. The cloaca seemed pushed out, but not extreme. My girlfriend also noticed about midway up his spine he seems to not be able to flex all the way. Is this kink spine and does that mean the guy screwed me and sold me a snake with bad genes?

[KD35WIN.AS.ONE]

does that mean the guy screwed me and sold me a snake with bad genes?

Means you need to get off Ssnakess.com and head to the vet.

[marionsclan]

Means you need to get off Ssnakess.com and head to the vet.

I bet subtlety is your middle name, huh? hahahaha j/k It's right on.

[RandyRhoads]

Means you need to get off Ssnakess.com and head to the vet.

Thanks I don't think anyone's mentioned that yet.

I do NOT have the money for a vet visit especially taking into consideration how far the drive is just to get there. No one knows what a vet would do in this situation or has any advice on what I can do to help besides telling him "I wish I could take you to a vet" over and over?

[stephanbakir]

Honestly, a vet in this case would be the only thing on my mind. This isn't something that will fix itself overnight.

[RandyRhoads]

Got it but no one has experience with this as far as the vets actions? If it's something that will most likely require a surgury or lots of meds i'd like to know so I can find someone to give it to who can take care of it and get it what it needs rather than wait and take a chance of it getting worse/dying untill I get paid....If it's something simple a vet can do I MIGHT be able to come up with enough for it.

[stephanbakir]

Got it but no one has experience with this as far as the vets actions? If it's something that will most likely require a surgury or lots of meds i'd like to know so I can find someone to give it to who can take care of it and get it what it needs than wait and take a chance of it getting worse/dying untill I get paid...
I'd start looking for someone.

[KD35WIN.AS.ONE]

If you cant take him to the vet, i recommend you rehome him to someone that will. I realize that sounds harsh but if you cant "properly" care for him, by getting him the help he needs... Ive read all of your posts here about his symptoms and watched both video's, like Stephan said its not going to fix itself. Your going to have to take some kind of action in accordance to the severity of the problem.

[RandyRhoads]

If you cant take him to the vet, i recommend you rehome him to someone that will. I realize that sounds harsh but if you cant "properly" care for him, by getting him the help he needs... Ive read all of your posts here about his symptoms and watched both video's, like Stephan said its not going to fix itself. Your going to have to take some kind of action in accordance to the severity of the problem.



I agree. Getting a $2,800.00 a month cut in income can unfortunatly make situations like this occur. I was just hoping to get a little more info on treatment of a prolapse/ other possibilities beforing giving away a snake I really like... I know his health comes first but hoped there was something I could do to stabalize him for a week or two, and it will probably take that long to find a good home anyway...

[KD35WIN.AS.ONE]

I agree. Getting a $2,800.00 a month cut in income can unfortunatly make situations like this occur. I was just hoping to get a little more info on treatment of a prolapse/ other possibilities beforing giving away a snake I really like... I know his health comes first but hoped there was something I could do to stabalize him for a week or two, and it will probably take that long to find a good home anyway...


I understand i am not judging you in any way/shape or form.. I really am not sure what to do as far as "stabilizing" him. Avoid handling him untill you find him a home, do check up on him and see if his progression is getting any better/worse, but i wouldn't add any unneeded stress.

[NennaMeerkat]

Its no fun getting a cut in pay and it always seems even the best loved pet ends up on the short end of the stick...even more so with non dog/cat pets. Even MORE so than that are reptiles and birds. Often times the vets are far and few between and the ones that are there are really expensive. So I understand that 100% because as a multiple pet owner with only the bare minimum of income I am often fearful of what happens if ANY of my pets get sick. But of course I am willing to find a vet that is willing to work with me. If I can't find such a vet then I will just find someone who can take better care...but thankfully I have never had to do anything like that. Even when my dogs got into a fight that was worth 5000 dollars in vet bills I still managed to find a way to get them the care they needed.

In your case it sounds like your snake might have something due to bad genes or a simple accident that will effect it quite possibly the rest of its life (only speculation I know but someone mentioned a back problem). This means that a vet is GONNA have to be found or you find someone that won't judge you and can/will find a vet that will work with them to get the snake better. Even if you do find a vet that will work with you...if the snake does end up to be a "special needs" animal in some way are you prepared to deal with that?

Also sorry if this is totally out of left field my sleeping meds are starting to kick in AND sometimes when that happens I type out something that comes off rude or inconsiderate cause of my judgement being off. Even more so when you can't read inflection with words. I am not personal judging you about anything but seriously I am trying to give you something to think about overall.

[marionsclan]

Got it but no one has experience with this as far as the vets actions? If it's something that will most likely require a surgury or lots of meds i'd like to know so I can find someone to give it to who can take care of it and get it what it needs rather than wait and take a chance of it getting worse/dying untill I get paid....If it's something simple a vet can do I MIGHT be able to come up with enough for it.

Here is a link to the Loomis Basin Veterinary Hospital which provide services for Reptiles. They will give you an estimate before doing any procedures and they also accept Animal Insurance and CareCredit to help you with the bill. The least you could do is call them and explain your situation and maybe you can make a deal with them. At this point nobody will be able to tell you what is wrong with your snake unless they can physically see her. She looks like she is in a lot of pain so anything you do should be done Asap. As for the lengthy drive, Loomis Vet Hospital is 4.5 miles away from the center of Rocklin.

Loomis Basin CA Veterinarians | Loomis Basin Veterinary Clinic, Loomis CA (http://www.loomisbasinvet.com/index.html)

[Lankyrob]

Most vets in the UK will set up some sort of payment plan as long as your credit rating is ok. I would be ringing round trying to find somethhing like this. the other option we have in the UK are RSPCA and PDSA vets that treat animals for those on low income/state benefits. The RSPCA charge a low rate flat fee and the PDSA treat animals free but ask for donations.

No idea if there are similar charities in the US but may be worth lookjng into.

[ilovemypets1988]

have a read of this and email them, they will know more about this stuf than any of us on this forum: Local Animal Charities of America (http://www.localanimalcharities.org/)

[RandyRhoads]

Here is a link to the Loomis Basin Veterinary Hospital which provide services for Reptiles. They will give you an estimate before doing any procedures and they also accept Animal Insurance and CareCredit to help you with the bill. The least you could do is call them and explain your situation and maybe you can make a deal with them. At this point nobody will be able to tell you what is wrong with your snake unless they can physically see her. She looks like she is in a lot of pain so anything you do should be done Asap. As for the lengthy drive, Loomis Vet Hospital is 4.5 miles away from the center of Rocklin.

Loomis Basin CA Veterinarians | Loomis Basin Veterinary Clinic, Loomis CA (http://www.loomisbasinvet.com/index.html)


Guess I should update my profile. Loomis Basin was just a few streets over. I moved from Rocklin to Montezuma hills. I had a girl in my EMT class that worked there and she said she knew nothing about snakes because they don't see reptiles. Are you sure they do? I'll call and explain the situation and find out. Rocklin is still about 30 minutes closer than the crappy vet I normally took them to.

[marvelfreak]

Ok i don't want to freak you out, and i hope i am wrong. Please tell me this snake is nowhere near the rest of your snakes. Years ago i got a RTB that had IBD it wiped out my collection. In a couple of the snake they started to get what looked like kinks in their spines. Then it got harder for them to move around. It look like their bodies where crapping. I hope that it's not IBD, but when i read what you said about your snake it reminded me of how a couple of mine had acted before dieing.

[NennaMeerkat]

From what I understand IBD is something that causes them to not be able to tell which way is up. Like you find them upside down or when you get them out they move their heads in weird ways. Haven't heard of IBD causing kinks in spines.

[marvelfreak]

From what I understand IBD is something that causes them to not be able to tell which way is up. Like you find them upside down or when you get them out they move their heads in weird ways. Haven't heard of IBD causing kinks in spines.
Not a real kink in the spine. It just look like muscle craps, but it made it look a bit like a kink spine. Like a Charlie Horse.

[NennaMeerkat]

There are tons of videos on Youtube that show snakes with IBD. Just do a search "Snake with IBD" and go from there. No matter the specie it seems IBD shows the same symptoms.

[RandyRhoads]

That's scary. Yeah seems similar. Except it's his back half that he can't keep right side up and flops it around. His cloaca looks like it went back to normal today.

IBD is airborne isn't it? He's in the same room as the others but not in contact.

[NennaMeerkat]

No I don't think it is airborne...more like a genetic thing rather than a sickness like URI. But it has been a while since I have read anything on it so I can't remember totally 100% Just do a little research to find out.

[Lankyrob]

The fact it blows through collections i would have thought it is either airborne or past on by cross contamination by keepers or items hat we use.

[NennaMeerkat]

The fact it blows through collections i would have thought it is either airborne or past on by cross contamination by keepers or items hat we use.

Does it blow through collections? I have never heard or read of it doing that. My only personal experience was a young ball python I bought from a store (only snake I ever bought from a store) and a week after I brought it home and fed it once...I found it upside down in its tank. Took it out and watched it move its head and front half all funky. Kept wanting to go upside down.

Went back to the store and they had sold no other snakes and none of the other balls had shown even the slightest symptom. However I think I read somewhere...once...about a mite that gets into the brain of the snake that causes it??

[Lankyrob]

My understanding from what i have read on here is that boas can carry it for ages without getting sick but it will kill pythons within weeks if not shorter. I read somewhere that some shipping people will put a python into a boa shipment as if the python dies they know the shipment is contaminated.

[NennaMeerkat]

Interesting stuff! Everyone seems to have their own theories and such about this. Guess no one really knows then?

[shaunyboy]

Whoa people. Calm down it's not a problem to hold it to get the shed off. I'm not afraid of getting bit it's not big enough to do anything terrible. I know the hooking looked like crap sometimes I was intentionaly trying to prod it to get it to move it's tail around for the video and other times it simply kept sliding off. This is my only snake that wont cooperate and ride the hook, normally I would tail him to keep him from falling off, but seeing as there was an issue with the tail I was unsure about, as well as trying to hold a camera.............. ................

Stephanbakir- Went back and looked at :09 the hook slipped off and up towards his face, I would never intentionally "flick" a snakes face with that speed and force.


i know you guys love snakes so do I no need to beat a dead horse..........


I will go soak and gently remove the little bit I didn't get off yesterday, and see if he's getting better or worse.

forget the hook mate (not having a go at you rhandy)

take a firm grip of the head and body to stop all the movement and thrashing around

then if possible get a 2nd person to take some close up pictures

its hard to tell from the video but 0ne taken close up would give folk a better idea of what your dealing with

it looks like the tail is all caught up in its own shed

the dark blotches are whats concerning me

it could be poo stuck under the retained shed but i'd like a closer look please

cheers shaun

[shaunyboy]

My understanding from what i have read on here is that boas can carry it for ages without getting sick but it will kill pythons within weeks if not shorter. I read somewhere that some shipping people will put a python into a boa shipment as if the python dies they know the shipment is contaminated.


ibd kills pythons within 4 weeks rob

[RandyRhoads]

Good to see you back Shaun.

Wow so it sounds like what Rob said about putting a python in with boas is true then.

I'll still try to get some pics of it now but my camera doesn't do well with close ups. I got it off and it was just fecal matter/dirt trapped under. His tail is doing alot better and he's somewhat able to unwind it. Underneath is pinkinsh now like a fresh wound.

I shot his UTH with my temp gun and got 90's all around except one tiny spot that read 115. I know that's too high but not enough to have given him a major burn right? I couldn't even see him getting burned because of how small the spot was. Also, why does he continually dig out substrate to get closer to it and lay on straight on the glass if it's plenty warm enough?

[marionsclan]

Interesting stuff! Everyone seems to have their own theories and such about this. Guess no one really knows then?

Here is what I found online about it:

What causes this disease? Intracytoplasmic eosinophilic inclusion bodies have been identified in the epithelial cells of the kidneys and pancreas. Neuronal degeneration and lesions form in the spinal cord and brain, and may be accompanied by myelin degeneration and nerve damage. Damage to the spleen is also found, with that organ being grossly atrophied and fibrosed. Electron microscopy has found that the organism falls into the retrovirus category.

The snake mite, Ophionyssus natricis, has been found in collections in which IBD has occurred but it is not implicated in all cases of infection.

As this has been identified as a viral entity, it may spread like a virus, through contact between infectious organisms (such as housing an infected snake with a previously healthy one) or through airborne aerosolized secretions, or by the keeper passing secretions from one snake or enclosure to another during the course of handling or cleaning (when strict quarantine and cleaning procedures are not followed).

[NennaMeerkat]

Interesting. Thanks very much for sharing that information. It is one I haven't read before about it. So it is quite possibly some sort of airborne disease that sounds like to me a cancer or some sort. Bizarre and scary. Wonder if snakes in the wild suffer from it or if it is a disease that happens because of people housing many reptiles/animals together in a small-ish space?

[marionsclan]

Here is some more info:
History: Inclusion body disease of boid snakes has been recognized since the mid 1970's. It is named for the characteristic intracytoplasmic inclusions which are seen in epidermal cells, oral mucosal epithelial cells, visceral epithelial cells, and neurons. In the 1970's, through the late 1980's, this disease was most commonly seen in Burmese pythons, Python molusus bivittatus. Starting in the late 1980's until present, it has been seen most commonly in boa constrictors, Boa constrictor. Host: All boid snakes should be considered susceptible. While the disease has not been identified in non-boid snakes, it is unknown whether nonboid snakes can harbor the virus. The primary host of this virus has not been identified.

Distribution: Worldwide in captive boid snakes. Its occurrence in the wild is unknown. Several cases have recently been seen in captive pythons in Australia, Canary Islands, and Italy. The transport of captive snakes in the pet trade and transport between different zoologic institutions probably account for the spread around the world.

Ages Affected: Has been identified primarily in adult snakes. However, all age groups should be considered susceptible. There are anecdotal reports of infection in neonates.

Seems that Boas are more affected by it then Pythons so proper hygiene and quarantine is mandatory for all boids. My personal opinion is that due to all the intense breeding to create just the right morph some basic genetic rules have been broken.

[NennaMeerkat]

Seems that Boas are more affected by it then Pythons so proper hygiene and quarantine is mandatory for all boids. My personal opinion is that due to all the intense breeding to create just the right morph some basic genetic rules have been broken.

This I would not doubt for a moment! You see some strange things when trying to get just the perfect whatever with dogs. Take the king charles spaniel (think that is the name) in the UK, such horrible breeding practices have taken place to get a small head that now the dog's brain doesn't always fit in the skull leading the poor animal to some awful effects. Same goes for pugs in the UK as well...they want such short short faces. And the Ridgeback as well.

So I can see it happening with snakes as well. Kinda sad really what we *might* be doing to our pets these days.