F/T vs live why do you feed

[kellcore]

Ok so i see alot of people feed frozen. And i want to know why. I think its more natural to feed live. Now on more scared snakes we will stunn the rat or mouse so the snake doesnt get hurt but they still move around. And i always was one to like my meat fresh other than frozen. But also the fact that when thawing a rat the inside could still be frozen, or rotting from the stomach acid. or as the inside is thawing the outside could be rotting.

So i guess my question is why do you feed what you do?

I also recomend live for beginner snake owners as they may not thaw right or feel comfortable making the mouse dance. Now for the larger snakes i do not recomend them to anyone but someone that has been dealing with snakes for a while. Our large snakes eat mediums to large rats now. We do stand watch and always have something to knock a rat away and have had to intervene with the bigger rats or break thier teeth but the small snakes we have never had to do anything but enjoy the show.

I dont want to start a debate or arguement i just like to hear other peoples opinions.

[Damion930]

Freezing kills bacteria and even with someone standing guard a snake can still be injured. Its also easyer and cheaper to store frozen. Also I like all critters and don't like to see them suffer

[reptile65]

Ok so i see alot of people feed frozen. And i want to know why. I think its more natural to feed live. Now on more scared snakes we will stunn the rat or mouse so the snake doesnt get hurt but they still move around. And i always was one to like my meat fresh other than frozen. But also the fact that when thawing a rat the inside could still be frozen, or rotting from the stomach acid. or as the inside is thawing the outside could be rotting.

So i guess my question is why do you feed what you do?

I also recomend live for beginner snake owners as they may not thaw right or feel comfortable making the mouse dance. Now for the larger snakes i do not recomend them to anyone but someone that has been dealing with snakes for a while. Our large snakes eat mediums to large rats now. We do stand watch and always have something to knock a rat away and have had to intervene with the bigger rats or break thier teeth but the small snakes we have never had to do anything but enjoy the show.

I dont want to start a debate or arguement i just like to hear other peoples opinions.

In my opinion, you can't make the argument that it's more natural to feed snakes live. Once you keep a snake in a small enclosure in captivity, you throw "natural" out the window. It's not natural for a mouse/rat to be confined to a small space where it can't escape. It is also not natural for the snake to not be able to get away if the rodent decides to take a chunk out of it.

IMO, it's more humane for both the rodent AND the snake to feed f/t. Not to mention it's way more convenient for me to buy frozen rodents in bulk.

Freezing kills bacteria and even with someone standing guard a snake can still be injured. Its also easyer and cheaper to store frozen. Also I like all critters and don't like to see them suffer

Freezing doesn't actually kill bacteria. All it does is slow the growth of bacteria, but when you warm it up again, the bacteria can still grow and reproduce.

[Dehlida]

I feed both, some get live here and there most get frozen thawed or prekilled items. It's easier to toss a bowl of prekilled mice/rats in with an animal or offer the prey item by tongs if its already dead. The only animals that ever eat live are a couple monitors, and that is a treat.

I'm not aware of any bacteria or viruses that mice carry to be dangerous to any reptile. Those diseases simply aren't hazardous to reptiles and don't jump from mammals to herps.

[kellcore]

I'm not aware of any bacteria or viruses that mice carry to be dangerous to any reptile. Those diseases simply aren't hazardous to reptiles and don't jump from mammals to herps.


specially captive bred rats and mice. Unless your going out and trying to breed wild into them.

[Coffee Black]

Breaking their teeth is also definitely not natural.

[Lankyrob]

Ok so i see alot of people feed frozen. And i want to know why. I think its more natural to feed live. Now on more scared snakes we will stunn the rat or mouse so the snake doesnt get hurt but they still move around. And i always was one to like my meat fresh other than frozen. But also the fact that when thawing a rat the inside could still be frozen, or rotting from the stomach acid. or as the inside is thawing the outside could be rotting.

So i guess my question is why do you feed what you do?

I also recomend live for beginner snake owners as they may not thaw right or feel comfortable making the mouse dance. Now for the larger snakes i do not recomend them to anyone but someone that has been dealing with snakes for a while. Our large snakes eat mediums to large rats now. We do stand watch and always have something to knock a rat away and have had to intervene with the bigger rats or break thier teeth but the small snakes we have never had to do anything but enjoy the show.

I dont want to start a debate or arguement i just like to hear other peoples opinions.

Seems to me that you feed live for YOUR benefit and not the snakes? There is no argument for feeding the majority of snakes live, in rare occassions it may be the only way to get a non feeder to eat but even then there are many many things i would try before attempting live feeding.

The biggest thing for me is the safety of my snakes and feeding f/t is the safest method.

[kellcore]

We only break teeth or thump when they pose a threat to the snake. But my snakes are pretty agressive eaters and strike perfectly on the face and kill pretty quickly. We only do all those things when there is needed to put its on a very rare occasion.

[Lankyrob]

If you fed f/t you wouldnt ever have to do these things, doesnt make any sense to me.

[NennaMeerkat]

I guess you have never owned a snake that just doesn't constrict? Either by nature or because the snake just isn't the kind to constrict? There are several species of snakes in the world that don't constrict. Like hognose snakes for instance. What do you do then?

Also not all snakes are rat eaters in the wild...so how is it natural to force them to eat something they wouldn't normally eat? You are already giving them a unnatural food source and then making them eat it alive.

[kellcore]

Thats why i was asking what everyone does. As a supplier i would like to know the reasons i get my requests that i do.

I have always had ball pythons or columbian redtails never anything else. And i know balls its more natural to eat ASF but mine will only take rats we have tried to feed them pretty much everything before and they ear rats. Our biggest male columbian wont eat dead the guy we got him from never could get him over to f/t thats why he got rid of him.

I just have never understood the reason for f/t and everyone does have thier own opinions. But it is interesting i never thought about cornsnakes or hog nose.

What other sources of food do you guys use?

My curiousity is just really really peeked as i get lots of requests for frozen more so than live. It just makes me wonder why and to hear so many opinions on it helps me understand my customers better. How do you like them packaged and frozen? How do you thaw them? How do you s tore them?

Please explain to me from my end we feed live we dont feed frozen i just fill the orders for frozen.

[Damion930]

Ok lol how about freezing does not kill all bacteria and septicimia can be caused by multiple strains of bacteria many found in rats.

[NennaMeerkat]

I buy in bulk at reptile expos, live pinkies if I can't get already frozen. Usually buy enough to last me until the next expo. I store them 4 each in freezer style ziplock baggies. I don't have a CO2 chamber so if they are alive I put them in the freezer that way (which I know many of you hate so lets not go there).

I also have 2 frozen small toads that I caught last year in the freezer. I have to toad scent the pinkies once I unthaw them so my hognose will eat. She cannot resist that smell (which just grosses me out!) I fill up a small tupperware with hot hot water then put a single frozen pinky in a small ziplock bag. Put the pinky that is in the bag in the tupperware with my manual can opener to weight the bag down. The toads aren't put in the hot water instead they sit out to get only slightly unfrozen. Then I rub down the unthawed pinkie all over with the moist toad.

Put in tank on a place with no bedding and show the snake the food. Done and done until next week.

[kellcore]

I buy in bulk at reptile expos, live pinkies if I can't get already frozen. Usually buy enough to last me until the next expo. I store them 4 each in freezer style ziplock baggies. I don't have a CO2 chamber so if they are alive I put them in the freezer that way (which I know many of you hate so lets not go there).

I also have 2 frozen small toads that I caught last year in the freezer. I have to toad scent the pinkies once I unthaw them so my hognose will eat. She cannot resist that smell (which just grosses me out!) I fill up a small tupperware with hot hot water then put a single frozen pinky in a small ziplock bag. Put the pinky that is in the bag in the tupperware with my manual can opener to weight the bag down. The toads aren't put in the hot water instead they sit out to get only slightly unfrozen. Then I rub down the unthawed pinkie all over with the moist toad.

Put in tank on a place with no bedding and show the snake the food. Done and done until next week.


That was kind of gross lol but thanks for explaining. We package ours in vacumm tight bags to keep them from getting freezer burnt.

[NennaMeerkat]

Usually mine doesn't get to that point since I use the rather expensive bags that are meant to keep things safe from freezer burn. And thankfully we have expos near us every few months.

And yes those toads are uber nasty! But thankfully all I need is a little of their scent and then it is right back into the freezer. I will be glad when I can find some more.

[Lankyrob]

We buy frozen from a reptile shop. Defrost them overnight as we would our own food. Once defrosted we put the bowl we keep them in on a hot radiator for five minutes then just before feeding each prey item press the skull directly onto the radiator to give the head a good heat signal. Then hold the prey by its scruff with 12inch tweezers and "dance" the prey in front of the snake.

[kellcore]

We package them in the vacuum packs as we are the sellers not the buyers and who knows when a order is coming in. We usually get large orders all at once and i dont have time for expos i have 3 children there is just no way to do expos i cant even do garage sales at home they keep us busy.

I have never really talked to anyone about why they do frozen i have just known and been taught my ways and went with it never bothered to find out why a person personally does it. Thank you for sharing your insights.

[shaunyboy]

Ok so i see alot of people feed frozen. And i want to know why. I think its more natural to feed live. Now on more scared snakes we will stunn the rat or mouse so the snake doesnt get hurt but they still move around. And i always was one to like my meat fresh other than frozen. But also the fact that when thawing a rat the inside could still be frozen, or rotting from the stomach acid. or as the inside is thawing the outside could be rotting.

So i guess my question is why do you feed what you do?

I also recomend live for beginner snake owners as they may not thaw right or feel comfortable making the mouse dance. Now for the larger snakes i do not recomend them to anyone but someone that has been dealing with snakes for a while. Our large snakes eat mediums to large rats now. We do stand watch and always have something to knock a rat away and have had to intervene with the bigger rats or break thier teeth but the small snakes we have never had to do anything but enjoy the show.

I dont want to start a debate or arguement i just like to hear other peoples opinions.


not having a go

i also agree there is a place for live feeding with fussy feeding snakes

imo you seem to base a lot of you against reason on people not having the skills to defrost properly

theres nothing technical about taking a rat out the freezer the night before you feed and allowing it at least 12 hours defrost at room temperature

theres not much chance of a rat that was fresh at the time of freezing, rotting during defrost imo

also if someones going to feel uneasy about wiggling a rat on tongs,i'm pretty sure they will feel a lot worse about throwing a living rat in to be killied

larger prey items like medium rats if struck badly by the snake,say on the rear end can bite out in defence very quickly (imo faster than we could intervene)

i feel its a lot safer feeding frozen thawed and imo the pro's outway the con's

cheers shaun

[Jay]

Thats i know balls its more natural to eat ASF



Not even close, you have been misinformed.

[Lankyrob]

Ball pythons are indian - asf are african - hell of a distance to travel just for dinner ;)

[SnakeyJay]

The subject with asf comes up alot eh.

[stephanbakir]

Ball pythons are indian - asf are african - hell of a distance to travel just for dinner ;)
I think you got that backwards my friend :P

[Lankyrob]

You mean AFRICAN soft furred rats are from India?

[reptile65]

Ball pythons are indian - asf are african - hell of a distance to travel just for dinner ;)

Wait a minute. I thought ball pythons were from Africa. I'm not saying that automatically means ASFs are more natural, but I've never heard of ball pythons being found in India.

[ilovemypets1988]

i personlly defrost my rats and mice by boiling the kettle, half filling a suitably sized tub, putting a frozen rat/mice in for as long as it takes to defrost.

once the food has defrosted i simply (but dont recommend it) grab the rodent by the legs and dangle it above the snake without tongs, as my heat signature adds to that of the rodent and as my blood is still pumping, it looks like the rodent still is to a snake.

the reason why i put the rodent directly into the water for defrosting is that, the water also hydrates the rodent and as such rehydrates the snake - obviously by this time the water has cooled enough not to burn the snake.

[kellcore]

Oh i have no idea on the ASF then i thought thats what they ate in africa. But i do know i will never touch or deal with a ASF if its dead or alive that was one bad expierence i will not relive again. I like my rats i have always had good luck with rats.

Its enteresting to hear all this new info. Wether its natural or not i will still believe feeding live unless it is a shy snake then thats different. But i have 5 that are very agressive eaters.

[Little Wise Owl]

I feed frozen because it's safe, convenient and cost effective.

I don't think it's humane for either the rodent or the snake. Especially the rodent. I know it has to die but I'd prefer it'd be in my hands rather than an animal that makes half-arsed constricting efforts sometimes. Predators don't kill things painlessly or quickly enough for my liking and if I can control that, I will.

[infernalis]

I feed frozen because it's safe, convenient and cost effective. .

Bingo....

After watching a live mouse bite one of my snakes, I have been a strict user of F/T

[FeederBreeder25]

Where do you buy frozen mice usually? From a website? Or a friend that breeds? How many buy from private breeders? And why?

[infernalis]

I order like crazy from Rodent pro.....

http://www.thamnophis.us/1/mice.jpg

[Lankyrob]

I have a lovely reptile shop down the road and buy from them - they buy from feeder breeders that they have checked out personally so that they know the conditions the prey are raised in and what they are fed etc

[mykee]

I feed whatever my snakes will eat.

[FeederBreeder25]

Thats a lot of mice in that pic!!!

[citysnakes]

Ball pythons are indian - asf are african - hell of a distance to travel just for dinner ;)

im pretty sure ball pythons are african....

[Kayla90]

Freezing doesn't actually kill bacteria. All it does is slow the growth of bacteria, but when you warm it up again, the bacteria can still grow and reproduce.

As a former chef student I can actually tell you that when you freeze it, it does in fact kill the bacteria; however, bacteria that cause food borne illness multiply quickest between 4°C and 60°C (40°F - 140°F). This is known as the temperature danger zone and at this temp. you have about 4 hours before it is then consider dangerous. So always make sure you thaw your mice/rat in the refrigerator a day before you plan on feeding your snakes, and make sure not to use something that has been thawing in the fridge for more then 2 days.

[stephanbakir]

I order like crazy from Rodent pro.....

http://www.thamnophis.us/1/mice.jpg
That pic raised my eyebrows :P

[Kayla90]

Well okay actually I should say temperatures above 60° kills bacteria. But when you freeze it, it basically prevents any bacteria from growing. It's only once you start thawing that the bacteria will slowly start to grow, and then the more time spent thawing the quicker it starts to grow, but even so as along as you are not in the TDZ (which you have a leeway of about 4hrs) the bacteria shouldn't cause any harm to your snake.

[reptile65]

Well okay actually I should say temperatures above 60° kills bacteria. But when you freeze it, it basically prevents any bacteria from growing. It's only once you start thawing that the bacteria will slowly start to grow, and then the more time spent thawing the quicker it starts to grow, but even so as along as you are not in the TDZ (which you have a leeway of about 4hrs) the bacteria shouldn't cause any harm to your snake.

Exactly. As I said earlier, freezing does NOT kill bacteria. Low temperatures are bacteriostatic, not bacteriocidal.

[infernalis]

That pic raised my eyebrows :P

I have 3 more boxes since that picture was taken, I re-use the shipping cartons for storage, I estimate that I feed off close to 10,000 mice/rats a year.

For the record - Most all of my garter snakes eat Pinkies, sometimes up to 5 pinkies in a single meal.. so I thaw out food by the plate loads.


Bacteria?? Snakes have been observed swallowing road kill covered in maggots before.

If one person can honestly step forward and show me one single vet bill attributed to ingested "bacteria" I will eat my words here folks. (not infected cuts or wounds)

Salmonella and botulism effect warm blooded creatures.

The types of parasites we are concerned with here are pin worms, round worms, hookworms and flukes / tapeworms.

These are parasites, not bacteria.

[Kayla90]

Exactly. As I said earlier, freezing does NOT kill bacteria. Low temperatures are bacteriostatic, not bacteriocidal.

Yes but that doesn't make them any less safe then feeding them live ones, unless the owner is irresponsible. Besides, I really don't many people are going to want to keep thawed mice in their fridge for longer then they need too.

[reptile65]

Yes but that doesn't make them any less safe then feeding them live ones, unless the owner is irresponsible.

Yes, I know. I was not saying frozen was less safe than live. I believe it is a lot safer than live. I was just trying to clarify the whole bacteria thing.

[kellcore]

I have 3 more boxes since that picture was taken, I re-use the shipping cartons for storage, I estimate that I feed off close to 10,000 mice/rats a year.

For the record - Most all of my garter snakes eat Pinkies, sometimes up to 5 pinkies in a single meal.. so I thaw out food by the plate loads.


Bacteria?? Snakes have been observed swallowing road kill covered in maggots before.

If one person can honestly step forward and show me one single vet bill attributed to ingested "bacteria" I will eat my words here folks. (not infected cuts or wounds)

Salmonella and botulism effect warm blooded creatures.

The types of parasites we are concerned with here are pin worms, round worms, hookworms and flukes / tapeworms.

These are parasites, not bacteria.

Thats why they say dont play with thier poop ;)

[kellcore]

We actually when we sell to pet stores require them to come and check the rats and the living arrangments and our cages. We have books that note when cages where last cleaned and what rats where in what tanks when. All tanks are sterilized once a month unless there was a sick rat then we clean more frequently. We write down what rat was sick when and what rats came in contact.

I wont sell to a store or to another breeder, or seller unless they check. I like them to know they are healthy happy rats and wont get another rat sick. I have come across a breeder that would freeze a rat if it was sick so he wouldnt have to nurse it back to health. I couldnt believe that they did that as i would never if i fed frozen endanger my snake of that. Who knows what it was sick of and if its airborne.

We actually may have to start feeding frozen so i may be back for advice on something i just never was for.

[Kaos]

I have not got a snake yet but when i do i will feed frozen because it is illegal to live feed here :P
Something im very happy about

[Snakefood]

I had read on another website that captive snakes should not be fed a rat/mouse diet exclusively, due to high fat/cholesterol content in "red" meat and the inaility to burn these unused calories could lead to "fatty liver disease". This site said to feed a diet of rabbit pinkies and bird protiens (ie: chicks) with the "occasional" mouse/rat thrown in for variety.

I was wondering what you all thought of that as I am looking at supplying other varieties of "prey types" such as hatchling chicks

[thelocket]

This is a really good thread. Snakefood - I was just wondering about this myself the other day. My little Isis is still too small to tackle a hatchling chick, but I was thinking about doing variety in her meals as she got a little older. Curious to see what the answers to your question will be.

[SnakeyJay]

As long as you dont over feed and with handling sessions they will burn off energy. In the wild most snakes are ambush hunters so they dont exactly chase down their prey. As far as i know chick hold very little nutritional value for a snake but im not sure.

[Snakefood]

My little Isis is still too small to tackle a hatchling chick, but I was thinking about doing variety in her meals as she got a little older. Curious to see what the answers to your question will be.



Have you tried rabbit pinkie? If you are getting pinkies from about a 4-5 lb mother, they are quite a bit smaller (days 1-4) than hatchling chicks and rabbit is an awsome source of protien.