nile's invade florida

[TeaNinja]

lolol, i thought this was kind of funny. nile monitors are popping up all over florida. i'd laugh if i saw one cruising around.

Giant Lizards Invade Neighborhood - Video - KCRA Sacramento (http://www.kcra.com/video/28405407/detail.html)

[stephanbakir]

They don't look ugly you crazy !@
Love niles :)
Send me one pls.

[Coffee Black]

Not cool. Florida is getting enough bad press over reptiles.

[stephanbakir]

Reptiles in general get bad press.

[Aaran]

Every time i turn around i see animal control........

[Aaran]

They don't look ugly you crazy !@
Love niles :)
Send me one pls.
Im on it:)

[stephanbakir]

If you could swap out my order for an asian water monitor? kthx

[Aaran]

If you could swap out my order for an asian water monitor? kthx
I dont think they are invading the so called " SUNSHINSE STATE" .........yet

[stephanbakir]

There is bound to be one lurking, the way you guys take care of unwanted pets :P

[Aaran]

I live smack dab in the middle of this ( Miami)

[Aaran]

There is bound to be one lurking, the way you guys take care of unwanted pets :P
I DONT do that .... Im insulted

[Aaran]

OMG , it's a BASKALISK

[stephanbakir]

*falls on the floor paralyzed*

[Aaran]

*falls on the floor paralyzed*
* ROFL * for realz

[Dehlida]

If you could swap out my order for an asian water monitor? kthx
Niles are so much more manageable than waters... Taking care of a 4-5ft wild nile would be easier than a water in my book ;(

[stephanbakir]

I prefer the patterns on water monitors, I've worked with a nile in the past and he was grumpy, but I know that he was an odd case, while arguably harder to train they still make great "pets"

[Freebody]

i miss my nile, but he/she was Nasty, i got a thread here with pics of it, but it started out better than it was after owning it for a year and a bit. some are plain impossible to train imho. i dont think i made any mistakes which mean im sure i made only a few lol but it never missed a good oportunaty to let me know it was going to hurt me given the chance.

[Aaran]

Niles are so much more manageable than waters... Taking care of a 4-5ft wild nile would be easier than a water in my book ;(
I am despertaly trying to catch one , lol

[Freebody]

i dont think their is a lizard more enjoyable to own than a sav imho, just look at chompers pics in his thread... need i say more :)

[Aaran]

@ freebody

That was a nuff said moment

[stephanbakir]

Dun copy the patented Stephan nuff said.

[Rog]

Aren't there enough bermise there to eat the niles. Invasive species to eat invasive species. It always works doesn't it.lol

[Dehlida]

Monitors are not dogs- and shouldn't be treated like cuddle pets. Monitor owners need to realize they may never touch their pet, and need to be hands off if needed.

[TeaNinja]

Monitors are not dogs- and shouldn't be treated like cuddle pets. Monitor owners need to realize they may never touch their pet, and need to be hands off if needed.

do you own a monitor? lol. cuz i've seen tons of people taking theirs on walks with harnesses and such. seems pretty similar to a dog if you ask me. i agree you shouldn't really "cuddle" with any reptile and most reptiles don't love human contact. that being said, if your animal isn't stressed by it, go to town. handle it all you want.

[Dehlida]

do you own a monitor? lol. cuz i've seen tons of people taking theirs on walks with harnesses and such. seems pretty similar to a dog if you ask me. i agree you shouldn't really "cuddle" with any reptile and most reptiles don't love human contact. that being said, if your animal isn't stressed by it, go to town. handle it all you want.
I own several. The idea of taking your monitor out of its cage is irresponsible unless it's to a designated reptile event. It scares the general public and gives our hobby a bad name/reputation. I take mine out to the local herp shop when I pick up stuff here and there, other than that I am very hands off with my monitors.

Also- niles are not mean, or aggressive, or vicious or anything of the sort. This is only said by people who don't understand the species itself. The species is shy and skittish and wants nothing more than to run away from us. A nile is "vicious" when put into a small enclosure where it is forced to interact with people. Most people I know with niles will all tell you- if you leave them well enough and treat them exactly like what they are (a strong predatory SOLITARY) lizard you will never have problems with the monitor.

Keep hands off of a nile, let it gain trust with you, and you will get so much farther with any monitor species, forcing it to interact with you on any level is nothing but trouble.

[Aaran]

Dun copy the patented Stephan nuff said.
I have NEVER heard you say that

[stephanbakir]

This is a forum, we don't hear much of anything :) Do say it allot though :P

[Aaran]

This is a forum, we don't hear much of anything
OHHHHHHHH :eek:

[Max713]

They don't look ugly you crazy !@
Love niles :)
Send me one pls.
I was thinking the same thing!

i dont think their is a lizard more enjoyable to own than a sav imho, just look at chompers pics in his thread... need i say more :)
Other than a Tegu ;)

[TeaNinja]

I own several. The idea of taking your monitor out of its cage is irresponsible unless it's to a designated reptile event. It scares the general public and gives our hobby a bad name/reputation. I take mine out to the local herp shop when I pick up stuff here and there, other than that I am very hands off with my monitors.

Also- niles are not mean, or aggressive, or vicious or anything of the sort. This is only said by people who don't understand the species itself. The species is shy and skittish and wants nothing more than to run away from us. A nile is "vicious" when put into a small enclosure where it is forced to interact with people. Most people I know with niles will all tell you- if you leave them well enough and treat them exactly like what they are (a strong predatory SOLITARY) lizard you will never have problems with the monitor.

Keep hands off of a nile, let it gain trust with you, and you will get so much farther with any monitor species, forcing it to interact with you on any level is nothing but trouble.

your dilusion is awesome lol. i'm not talking about, "hey honey, lets take the monitor and go to baskin robbins" i'm saying some people take the monitor out to a creek or around their back yard or something, nowhere public. to say a monitor is "not a puppy dog pet" and you shouldn't handle it is such bs. snakes shouldn't really be handled either, yet some are perfectly fine with it as i'm sure some monitors are. if you have a particular pet that hates handling, sure, i agree you shouldn't mess with it too much, but your blanket statement about monitors seemed kind of dumb to me.

[stephanbakir]

His blanket statement was made because of his years of experience and awesomeness.

[TeaNinja]

His blanket statement was made because of his years of experience and awesomeness.

blind leading the blind.
get in line stephen ;)

[marionsclan]

blind leading the blind.
get in line stephen ;)

He can't see the line. He's blind.

[Jay]

Don't start Tea. He is right in his opinion and you are right in your opinion. Neither one of you will agree with each other. Post facts to back up your post. In my opinion you are both right I limit handling on my reptiles due to stress. I also will admit that I have taken my Monitor out side on a hot day, but never in public.

[Dehlida]

your dilusion is awesome lol. i'm not talking about, "hey honey, lets take the monitor and go to baskin robbins" i'm saying some people take the monitor out to a creek or around their back yard or something, nowhere public. to say a monitor is "not a puppy dog pet" and you shouldn't handle it is such bs. snakes shouldn't really be handled either, yet some are perfectly fine with it as i'm sure some monitors are. if you have a particular pet that hates handling, sure, i agree you shouldn't mess with it too much, but your blanket statement about monitors seemed kind of dumb to me.
Please post your experience with monitors, specifically adult monitors especially V. niloticus? Considering not only do I own a few myself, but I also work at a local rescue with a couple as well. I would say my "blanket statement" isn't very dumb after all is it? Considering you have next to know history working with Varanus species and probably only a handful of people on the board to (infernalis being one of them).

I never mentioned taking your monitor into the back yard as being "bad" per say, although what benefit do you gain from taking it into your back yard? Risk of possible pesticides, removing him from a comfortable/natural environment into an area with lower temps/humidity and the fact you are stressing the animal the entire time- I fail to see a reason outside of an educational outing to bring the monitor out of his enclosure.

When I spoke about monitors not being a dog it's due to the fact monitors are a solitary animal, they have no desire and actually thrive better in conditions without human interaction than with human interaction. From my experience, and those around me- monitors bought as babies and interacted with all the time are very stressed out, grow slower, eat less, and end up becoming more of a problem than the keepers who respect the animal for what it is. Dogs are a social animal, who have something to gain from being out in the open interacting with the owner.

blind leading the blind.
get in line stephen ;)
I appreciate you directly insulting my years of experience (working with niloticus directly) and others. If you don't have anything logical to contribute to a thread, why post?

[Jay]

not only do I own a few myself, but I also work at a local rescue with a couple as well.

Dehlida, considering your experience would you recommend clipping a monitors nails? My father has told me not to, but they seem long...

[Dehlida]

Dehlida, considering your experience would you recommend clipping a monitors nails? My father has told me not to, but they seem long...
Long sharp nails are naturally part of owning a monitor- however there are work arounds. Mine are rarely handled, so the nails are left intact for the most part, especially before shows/talks to emphasize the damage the claws alone will do to someones skin. I have had some success with adding more stimulus to the cage such as deeper dirt, and more things that will wear down the claws naturally.

I also know a few people who will use a small dremmel to file down some of the claws. I'm not a huge fan of this option as monitors are very unpredictable and may freak with the dremmel and end up injuring the owner in the process. For smaller individuals just use standard nail clippers on the tips, this should work with most species up until 3-4 foot.

[Jay]

Thanks, I was more worried about him injuring himself while digging and such. I dont think I would alter an animal physically for my needs.

[TeaNinja]

Please post your experience with monitors, specifically adult monitors especially V. niloticus? Considering not only do I own a few myself, but I also work at a local rescue with a couple as well. I would say my "blanket statement" isn't very dumb after all is it? Considering you have next to know history working with Varanus species and probably only a handful of people on the board to (infernalis being one of them).

I never mentioned taking your monitor into the back yard as being "bad" per say, although what benefit do you gain from taking it into your back yard? Risk of possible pesticides, removing him from a comfortable/natural environment into an area with lower temps/humidity and the fact you are stressing the animal the entire time- I fail to see a reason outside of an educational outing to bring the monitor out of his enclosure.

When I spoke about monitors not being a dog it's due to the fact monitors are a solitary animal, they have no desire and actually thrive better in conditions without human interaction than with human interaction. From my experience, and those around me- monitors bought as babies and interacted with all the time are very stressed out, grow slower, eat less, and end up becoming more of a problem than the keepers who respect the animal for what it is. Dogs are a social animal, who have something to gain from being out in the open interacting with the owner.


I appreciate you directly insulting my years of experience (working with niloticus directly) and others. If you don't have anything logical to contribute to a thread, why post?

i'd be happy to explain.

Monitors are not dogs- and shouldn't be treated like cuddle pets. Monitor owners need to realize they may never touch their pet, and need to be hands off if needed.

i disagree wholeheartedly. do i have experience owning them, nope. do i know that they can be handled somewhat regularly and be fine and happy, yep. also it's funny that every time you post about me you're happy to assume how much experience i have with everything before even asking.

AND ONE FINAL THING. if you don't want me posting because i disagree with you, why did you raise hell with me for like 20 posts on my rat killing page. eat ****.

[marionsclan]

I appreciate you directly insulting my years of experience (working with niloticus directly) and others. If you don't have anything logical to contribute to a thread, why post?

I just wanted to make clear that my comment about the blind was meant as a joke and not meant to insult anyone. Just trying to lighten things up a bit.

[Rog]

I had a savanna that did not like human contact. I believe they are an animal best viewed rather than interacted with. The onle reason we get to handle our smaller animals is that they know biting such a large animal would be useless. They do eventually become desensitized to us, and some seem to like our heat. If we let them go most would not come back.

[Dehlida]

Thanks, I was more worried about him injuring himself while digging and such. I dont think I would alter an animal physically for my needs.
Monitors benefit on a huge margin from having sharp claws, from everything from gripping trees, digging, to using them to tear up larger prey items. He wont injure himself so no worries there!

i'd be happy to explain.

i disagree wholeheartedly. do i have experience owning them, nope. do i know that they can be handled somewhat regularly and be fine and happy, yep. also it's funny that every time you post about me you're happy to assume how much experience i have with everything before even asking.

AND ONE FINAL THING. if you don't want me posting because i disagree with you, why did you raise hell with me for like 20 posts on my rat killing page. eat ****.
Again, you misread my post. I clearly stated monitors are not dogs, cuddle pets, and monitor owners need to realize they may never touch their monitor. This is a simple fact. Most new monitor owners see someone else with a big tame one, and in turn end up getting one thinking "oh cool a big lizard I can play with". Infact, that's probably the main reason monitors are becoming more popular- this also leads to the death of many many monitors.

The problem is, most monitors do not want handling, and do best as hands off pets. Most owners want handling, and want hands on pets. That's where I draw my conclusions from. Every single one of my monitors I work with is handleable, I have never been bitten by a monitor of any kind in my many years of working with almost every species (outside of aus species) available. I will say however, that I rarely touch my monitors at all unless I need to (to take to an educational event etc).

I had a savanna that did not like human contact. I believe they are an animal best viewed rather than interacted with. The onle reason we get to handle our smaller animals is that they know biting such a large animal would be useless. They do eventually become desensitized to us, and some seem to like our heat. If we let them go most would not come back.
Some monitors never like human contact, some of mine do fine with it, and some still show they dislike interaction, and some are completely shy of me still. On some level I think your answer is sort of right; however, I would rather attribute monitor behavior to their intelligence level.

Monitors are very very smart, and can read you better than you can probably read them. They remember past events, they are "trainable" on some level, and most seem to realize they can put a world of hurt on their owners. Monitors seem to realize that we take care of them in captivity and they need us to stay alive, so they will build up a trusting bond, however when they want to be left well enough alone they are more than willing to show this. Trust with a monitor is huge and often confused for "taming" that other herps go through.

[Rog]

I do agree that they are intelligent. My statement was in no way trying to downplay that fact. I was just trying to point out that animals such as dogs or birds form a social bond and can be easily trained using the positive reinforcement of touch, wether it be a scratch behind the ear or a tummy rub. Reptiles have a less social lifestyle so the same reinforcers will not work. That said my beardy always looks at me then his tank lid because he wants out. I think alot of animals are discarded because people are looking for a social, rather than trained response.

[stephanbakir]

Monitors, even babies like a good chin rub :)

[Herpeton]

Niles are so much more manageable than waters... Taking care of a 4-5ft wild nile would be easier than a water in my book ;(

what kinda book are you reading lol
Niloticus have one of the worst reputation when it comes to Varanids, being very difficult to tame, even with constant handling. The odds of having a large tame niloticus are very slim. Considering i have owned both species. And worked with a V.niloticus and V.salvator of the same, size. And these were captive specimens, which were used to the weekly feeding routine and interaction.

So all in all, "water's" with proper handling and proper husbandry, could become a very tame reptile, considering for roughly 5 years as a volunteer. I went to many shows with this animal, i would never consider bringing a V.niloticus. But in the end V.niloticus are much more aggressive.

And you said you would rather deal with a wild specimen? A animal that has rare full on interactions with humans? and you would like to deal with a reptile that? Good luck with that....

There is much more i would like to say but i am biting me tongue on this one, yes i am. despite how much i said. Just imagine if i didn't bite it ;) lol

I am not trying to "bash" you, rather trying to make this thread more professional. Hopefully you understand

I personally expect nothing more from my nile monitor temperament wise. Huffing, puffing and whipping. As the picture shows all 3 traits.

[Herpeton]

do you own a monitor? lol. cuz i've seen tons of people taking theirs on walks with harnesses and such. seems pretty similar to a dog if you ask me. i agree you shouldn't really "cuddle" with any reptile and most reptiles don't love human contact. that being said, if your animal isn't stressed by it, go to town. handle it all you want.

pretty similar to a dog? How do you even go about finding similarity's in animals so far apart? lol

[TeaNinja]

you're clearly missing the similarities i was pointing out.
if people give their monitors treats, take them on walks and such. i'd say they have a few similarities with dogs. i'm also 100% positive some monitors take to handling just fine, as long as you don't hold them excessively and stress them out.

[Dehlida]

what kinda book are you reading lol
Niloticus have one of the worst reputation when it comes to Varanids, being very difficult to tame, even with constant handling. The odds of having a large tame niloticus are very slim. Considering i have owned both species. And worked with a V.niloticus and V.salvator of the same, size. And these were captive specimens, which were used to the weekly feeding routine and interaction.

So all in all, "water's" with proper handling and proper husbandry, could become a very tame reptile, considering for roughly 5 years as a volunteer. I went to many shows with this animal, i would never consider bringing a V.niloticus. But in the end V.niloticus are much more aggressive.

And you said you would rather deal with a wild specimen? A animal that has rare full on interactions with humans? and you would like to deal with a reptile that? Good luck with that....

There is much more i would like to say but i am biting me tongue on this one, yes i am. despite how much i said. Just imagine if i didn't bite it ;) lol

I am not trying to "bash" you, rather trying to make this thread more professional. Hopefully you understand

I personally expect nothing more from my nile monitor temperament wise. Huffing, puffing and whipping. As the picture shows all 3 traits.
I believe you are missing some of the reasons I said what I did. I wouldn't choose the nile just for temperament for other reasons as well some of which is size related and enclosure related. Niles are a hardier species that don't require as much as V. salvator does.

I also disagree, the reputation that niles have is based heavily upon the way they act as hatchlings and bad owners. Most people I know that own adults have gotten theirs to a handleable/touchable state and have no problems interacting with a niloticus just as readily as a salvator.

Also, niloticus is not aggressive, they are defensive. You're forcing them into a small box and forcing them to interact with you, and they are behaving the only way they know- by standing their ground. Take the same niloticus and put it in the wild, and they would much rather run from you.

you're clearly missing the similarities i was pointing out.
if people give their monitors treats, take them on walks and such. i'd say they have a few similarities with dogs. i'm also 100% positive some monitors take to handling just fine, as long as you don't hold them excessively and stress them out.
You don't keep a monitor, however you still want to try to act like you know absolutely anything about their behavior and ability to "take to handling".

You're missing what I've been getting at the entire time- monitors are not on par with any other reptile available. If you do not have experience on them, keep your mouth shut as to not mislead people on their behavior, it makes you look silly and portrays a bad image on the varanids.

[TeaNinja]

I believe you are missing some of the reasons I said what I did. I wouldn't choose the nile just for temperament for other reasons as well some of which is size related and enclosure related. Niles are a hardier species that don't require as much as V. salvator does.



I also disagree, the reputation that niles have is based heavily upon the way they act as hatchlings and bad owners. Most people I know that own adults have gotten theirs to a handleable/touchable state and have no problems interacting with a niloticus just as readily as a salvator.


Also, niloticus is not aggressive, they are defensive. You're forcing them into a small box and forcing them to interact with you, and they are behaving the only way they know- by standing their ground. Take the same niloticus and put it in the wild, and they would much rather run from you.



You don't keep a monitor, however you still want to try to act like you know absolutely anything about their behavior and ability to "take to handling".


You're missing what I've been getting at the entire time- monitors are not on par with any other reptile available. If you do not have experience on them, keep your mouth shut as to not mislead people on their behavior, it makes you look silly and portrays a bad image on the varanids.


i've known many people who keep monitors, and i believe you're just making things seem worse then they are. i half agree with your opinion that they don't love handling but I KNOW FROM PERSONAL EXPERIENCE (which you seem to overlook constantly) that you are NOT 100% right. some animals take to contact just fine.

i never said ONE THING about their husbandry or given anyone ANY SORT of advice. all i said this ENTIRE time was that you are wrong with your blanket statement about all monitors. that is all.

[Dehlida]

i've known many people who keep monitors, and i believe you're just making things seem worse then they are. i half agree with your opinion that they don't love handling but I KNOW FROM PERSONAL EXPERIENCE (which you seem to overlook constantly) that you are NOT 100% right. some animals take to contact just fine.

i never said ONE THING about their husbandry or given anyone ANY SORT of advice. all i said this ENTIRE time was that you are wrong with your blanket statement about all monitors. that is all.
Again, you have not worked with monitors, just because your 'FRIENDS' have tame monitors that they walk on a leash doesn't mean anything at all and is irrelevant to the topic.

My blanket statement applies to most monitors, and most monitors should be kept hands off for the benefit of both parties. Period.

[TeaNinja]

agree to disagree i suppose.
my friends aren't even the one's who walk their monitors on a harness, i've seen others on the forum doing so on their properties. the reptile seemed to be absolutely loving life.

[Jay]

You can read a million books but until you own a monitor you should not be debating with someone with such experience.

[TeaNinja]

ok, lol. i feel if i disagree with someone i should be able to debate anything.

[Dehlida]

ok, lol. i feel if i disagree with someone i should be able to debate anything.
That's like me saying I should be able to debate with a NASA engineer because I feel legos would hold up better for rocket construction.

[TeaNinja]

not at all, because my point had validity and wasn't moronic. everything within reason of course.

[Dehlida]

not at all, because my point had validity and wasn't moronic. everything within reason of course.
You THINK your point is valid; however, most serious varanid keepers would agree, that your point holds the same validity as my comparison with legos.

[TeaNinja]

lol, you should be a comedian :)

[Jay]

not at all, because my point had validity and wasn't moronic. everything within reason of course.
What is your point ?

[TeaNinja]

i'm over it lol. my point was you can handle your monitor occasionaly to somewhat frequently with no reprocussion if it doesn't stress hard. i was just disagreeing with his point that people may never get to handle their monitors ever, it's really not a big deal.

i guess if i've never owned a corn snake i'm not allowed to post about them, damn.

[Lankyrob]

Tea, ignore him, its not worth the hassle when he post only to get a reaction.

[Dehlida]

Tea, ignore him, its not worth the hassle when he post only to get a reaction.

I'm only posting to get a reaction? Is this even a serious post? I'm posting in a monitor thread, about monitors, based on FACTS. Go ask these things on varanus.nl/repticzone and you'll get the exact same answers that I'm giving you.

I'm trying to educate someone with next to no monitor experience on how these animals work, and somehow that's getting a reaction. You're clueless and I hope neither of you ever own a monitor as your ignorance is far too much and you'll end up killing it in short order.

[Herpeton]

i'm over it lol. my point was you can handle your monitor occasionaly to somewhat frequently with no reprocussion if it doesn't stress hard. i was just disagreeing with his point that people may never get to handle their monitors ever, it's really not a big deal.

i guess if i've never owned a corn snake i'm not allowed to post about them, damn.


you are forgetting the main word here, he stated MAY not touch they're monitors, yes some specimens or species in general are more tolerant to interaction, but they do NOT enjoy it, reptiles in general do not like being held or caressed or anything involving interaction. But some of which are quite tolerant. If you would like your monitor to be the happiest it could possibly be, do not go in the enclosure just to "pull it out". The only interaction that SHOULD be done with varanids is during feeding and cleaning, any other time is just stressing the animal out.

And your point about a monitor being on a leash and seeming to love life???? I do not understand, how can you tell a monitor is loving life?? Did he develop a larynx? lol

[Lankyrob]

I'm only posting to get a reaction? Is this even a serious post? I'm posting in a monitor thread, about monitors, based on FACTS. Go ask these things on varanus.nl/repticzone and you'll get the exact same answers that I'm giving you.

I'm trying to educate someone with next to no monitor experience on how these animals work, and somehow that's getting a reaction. You're clueless and I hope neither of you ever own a monitor as your ignorance is far too much and you'll end up killing it in short order.

Pretty much everything you have posted has raised reaction and you know what you are doing. As for you now judging my experience without knowing me - i have not made any comment about monitor husbandry so pull your neck in.

[Jay]

I'm going to have to agree with Dehlida, he is posting nothing but FACTS. This forum is turning into a cheap soap opera. This person has valuable and interesting information, stop ganging up on him HE is not the one in the wrong. You are in titled to an opinion but if you have no FACTS then don't post gibberish.

[TeaNinja]

having fun jumping on the idiot bandwagon?
the only thing i debated was his opinion about handling monitors, not any of his many facts that you all love so much. i already said agree to disagree posts ago but you have to keep knitpicking stuff. i disagree with him, that's the end. like i said, it's not a big deal, which all of you seem to be making it.

how about this dehlida, instead of questioning my experience and knowledge and poking and ranting for like 10 posts, why didn't you casually give me some of your "facts" and explain why your opinion is correct. i obviously still have yet to get it.

[Jay]

Re reed his posts, he clearly explains it. Again you are resulting in uneducated, disrespectful insults "The Idiot Bandwagon" I still don't understand why you are posting your information about Var. when your studies are strictly bias based, and inaccurate. I understand your dire respect for our Mod (you have brought up a few times) Defending how he takes HIS sav out. I hope you know that is his decision to risk several unfortunate events. I have taken mine out in the past he appears to enjoys it. (I know this from experience) I also know from extensive studies that in fact the sav does not enjoy being dragged from his "home" put in a different environment and having this giant creature following him. I highly doubt where Wayne lives he had a 130 basking area? I also well assume from waynes research he was not out for long. In conclusion we are all in titled to our own opinions but FACTS are Facts and you are nothing but the Follower, sir.

[TeaNinja]

lol sorry, i was just ranting at this point. i'm done with it though.

[Dehlida]

Pretty much everything you have posted has raised reaction and you know what you are doing. As for you now judging my experience without knowing me - i have not made any comment about monitor husbandry so pull your neck in.
I post proper husbandry for a varanid species. It causing a reaction is only further proof that the vast majority of people have the wrong view of monitors in general. No one would have a problem if I came on here and posted a picture of my 6 foot nile on a leash down on my ranch- despite the fact its irresponsible and bad for the animal itself.

I'm not doing anything other than try to show proper husbandry for a very misunderstood animal. I don't need to know you at all, nor your experience. The fact you think I am stating simple facts to get a reaction proves your ignorance.

I'm going to have to agree with Dehlida, he is posting nothing but FACTS. This forum is turning into a cheap soap opera. This person has valuable and interesting information, stop ganging up on him HE is not the one in the wrong. You are in titled to an opinion but if you have no FACTS then don't post gibberish.
It's extremely sad that I post an educated opinion that is scientifically sound and I get bashed for it, but I guess when people are told "touching your monitor/iguana is not best for it" they tend to get a little upset and defensive.

having fun jumping on the idiot bandwagon?
the only thing i debated was his opinion about handling monitors, not any of his many facts that you all love so much. i already said agree to disagree posts ago but you have to keep knitpicking stuff. i disagree with him, that's the end. like i said, it's not a big deal, which all of you seem to be making it.

how about this dehlida, instead of questioning my experience and knowledge and poking and ranting for like 10 posts, why didn't you casually give me some of your "facts" and explain why your opinion is correct. i obviously still have yet to get it.
Idiot bandwagon? My opinion is based in hard facts. I'm not knitpicking or "arguing". Your opinion of monitors is not valid at all- and it's extremely important that anyone who reads your posts does not get the wrong idea and end up keeping the animal wrong leading to an early death. You don't have experience with monitors, nor their handling, so why even bother debating it?

Re reed his posts, he clearly explains it. Again you are resulting in uneducated, disrespectful insults "The Idiot Bandwagon" I still don't understand why you are posting your information about Var. when your studies are strictly bias based, and inaccurate. I understand your dire respect for our Mod (you have brought up a few times) Defending how he takes HIS sav out. I hope you know that is his decision to risk several unfortunate events. I have taken mine out in the past he appears to enjoys it. (I know this from experience) I also know from extensive studies that in fact the sav does not enjoy being dragged from his "home" put in a different environment and having this giant creature following him. I highly doubt where Wayne lives he had a 130 basking area? I also well assume from waynes research he was not out for long. In conclusion we are all in titled to our own opinions but FACTS are Facts and you are nothing but the Follower, sir.
So this opinion is all based around the fact infernalis takes his savannah out? While his bosc is very healthy looking, I would still argue that it doesn't need to be out, and would do better inside the cage with less interaction. Does this mean I'm bashing Wayne? Not at all.

I think everyone here has gotten the wrong message. I'm not trying to get a reaction out of people. I'm trying to show educated facts about monitor husbandry- an area of our hobby so poorly known and misunderstood. Anyone who has no experience with varanids has no place acting like they do in this topic. Period.

[TeaNinja]

You don't have experience with monitors, nor their handling, so why even bother debating it?



So this opinion is all based around the fact infernalis takes his savannah out? While his bosc is very healthy looking, I would still argue that it doesn't need to be out, and would do better inside the cage with less interaction. Does this mean I'm bashing Wayne? Not at all.



Anyone who has no experience with varanids has no place acting like they do in this topic. Period.


wayne is NOT the only one i've seen walking his monitor around. and i like how you enjoy dragging up how LITTLE TO NO experience i have with monitors and their handling when you don't even know me or what i've done and had experience with. i've told you like 6 times i've had a decent amount of experience watching and handling them. i don't know the specifics of their husbandry, but i know that many monitors can be handled just fine.


you guys can stop posting now.

[Dehlida]

wayne is NOT the only one i've seen walking his monitor around. and i like how you enjoy dragging up how LITTLE TO NO experience i have with monitors and their handling when you don't even know me or what i've done and had experience with. i've told you like 6 times i've had a decent amount of experience watching and handling them. i don't know the specifics of their husbandry, but i know that many monitors can be handled just fine.


you guys can stop posting now.
Playing with your friends monitor, or interacting with one at a zoo is not "experience" unless you own adult monitors and have successfully kept them for multiple years you DO NOT have monitor experience.

Watching and handling LOL, what kind of experience is that? Let me guess you've handled some babies your friends have kept- and ended up dieing in short order due to stress. Wouldn't surprise me. You still have no experience with monitors despite your claims.

[TeaNinja]

once again you're letting your rambunctious assumptive mind get the better of you. a few people i know have adult monitors that are healthy and happy and if you don't learn anything by observing, you're pretty dumb. i don't just kill my pets, that's your job ;)

[Dehlida]

once again you're letting your rambunctious assumptive mind get the better of you. a few people i know have adult monitors that are healthy and happy and if you don't learn anything by observing, you're pretty dumb. i don't just kill my pets, that's your job ;)
So let me get this straight.

From your signature you own a whopping 3 snakes. All 3 of which are beginner snakes. You can't manage any form of proper grammar or sentence structure. You claim to "know" people with adult monitors (where are these people what species do they have?). Yet just by observing you can come up with all of these facts?

Clearly those of us who own monitors ourselves are in the wrong. The guy with 3 reptiles, 0 monitors, and zero experience working with them long term in person as captives knows more than us.

You're delusional, anly educated varanid keeper would tell you the exact same thing. I'd be willing to bet your "friends" either don't exist or have improper husbandry as well, as no respectable keeper would feed you this nonsense you're posting.

[marvelfreak]

13543 Can we end the childish 3rd grade arguing? Your both just keep 13541. It just make me want to 13542 How about getting back to the topic.

[TeaNinja]

i think it's funny that you keep making this a big deal and saying the word FACT 100,000 times. i never once interjected FACTS. the only thing i said in the beginning is i disagree with your opinion about not handling them. agree to disagree and get over it you little girl.

and if you're yatching about spelling and grammar and saying you AREN't a forum troll. wake up and smell the denial.

i'm done with your punk *** ;)

[Jenn_06]

ok its time to just close this its not going anywhere at all.

[Dehlida]

i think it's funny that you keep making this a big deal and saying the word FACT 100,000 times. i never once interjected FACTS. the only thing i said in the beginning is i disagree with your opinion about not handling them. agree to disagree and get over it you little girl.

and if you're yatching about spelling and grammar and saying you AREN't a forum troll. wake up and smell the denial.

i'm done with your punk *** ;)
I'm not stating that being hands off with most monitors is an opinion. I'm stating it is a simple fact. 2+2 will always equal 4. In your "opinion" 2+2=6, that doesn't make it right, it makes you wrong.

It's not a disagreement. You have no idea what you are talking about and are an uneducated individual. I will not agree to disagree when you are posting information that is FALSE and will lead people to more dead monitors. Get off your ego trip and realize you know jack **** about monitors and leave it to people who DO know about these animals.

Stay out of this forum, my dog has better monitor experience than you.

[stephanbakir]

Sometimes its a good idea to just drop the issue.
You tell him to "get off your ego trip" yet you say "stay out of this forum, my dog has better monitor experience then you".
I have tried hard to stay out of this conversation but that was a lil... excessive.

[Dehlida]

Sometimes its a good idea to just drop the issue.
You tell him to "get off your ego trip" yet you say "stay out of this forum, my dog has better monitor experience then you".
I have tried hard to stay out of this conversation but that was a lil... excessive.
I resorted to that because he resorted to "little girl" and "punk ***".

Mine isn't an ego trip, mine is scientific, provable FACT. There is complete difference between someone who's wrong and refusing to admit they are wrong, than someone who is right and is only trying to show the right way to do things.

[stephanbakir]

I'm not saying you are wrong, I actually agree with most if not all of what you said regarding monitors, but the way you said it can only lead to a negative response/continuation of the argument that got old before it started.

[TeaNinja]

it isn't a fact. the amount the animal can be handled is an opinion.

[Dehlida]

it isn't a fact. the amount the animal can be handled is an opinion.
No, it's not an opinion. You are ignorant and stupid for thinking differently. Take your uneducated bullcrap somewhere else please. Wait til I get my 8.5 ft croc in, come handle him, so you can get your arms torn off.

[TeaNinja]

yea, cuz handling croc and a monitor is totally the same...good call.
once again i'm gonna agree to disagree. happy 4th, i'm goin out.

[Dehlida]

yea, cuz handling croc and a monitor is totally the same...good call.
once again i'm gonna agree to disagree. happy 4th, i'm goin out.
Crocodile Monitor. Do some research.

For newbies to monitors: disregard this guys posts, he has 0 experience and is ignorant to monitor behavior and husbandry. If he owned a monitor it would surely die in short order due to stress and other factors from the owner. He is 100% wrong and anyone who wants a healthy captive varanid should disregard every post by this member. I would also say to avoid any husbandry tips regarding any herps in general from this guy. Thanks!

[Damion930]

Your a doody head lol so just a question since knowledge of keeping theis guys seems limited how can the amount of handling that is safe not be an opinion and if some people handle and keep healthy animals then how can it be a fact that you can't safely handle im definitely not tryin to start anything and I don't keep monitors just asking what the facts are.

[KD35WIN.AS.ONE]

Whether YOU as a individual should handle an animal or not is in fact a matter of opinion... Where you decided that not handling monitors was a fact im not sure... Whether or not you should or shouldn't give your dog table food is a matter of opinion aswell sure its bad for them (like handling monitors "could" be bad for them) but many, many, many, people still do it. You'd have to get over the fact that if people want to handle there monitor then there going to do it, right, wrong, whatever... In the end it doesnt matter WE are people, They are animals...

[Max713]

In before the lock :eek:


Just a thought, both of you look incredibly immature, and actually quite stupid after reading this thread.

My favorite image to post in these situations...
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa100/MotoMax777/130789523293.jpg

[Lankyrob]

Crocodile Monitor. Do some research.

For newbies to monitors: disregard this guys posts, he has 0 experience and is ignorant to monitor behavior and husbandry. If he owned a monitor it would surely die in short order due to stress and other factors from the owner. He is 100% wrong and anyone who wants a healthy captive varanid should disregard every post by this member. I would also say to avoid any husbandry tips regarding any herps in general from this guy. Thanks!


Nice how you deliberately didnt put Croc monitor in your original post just so you could attempt another slur - very mature of you - NOT!

[Gungirl]

it isn't a fact. the amount the animal can be handled is an opinion.

I agree 100%

[Dehlida]

More people with no experience talking out of their *** about handling monitors. It isn't an opinion. Handling causes stress on the monitor, and stress kills monitor.

Go handle yours, enjoy your dead captive because you where too stupid to listen to people with experience.

[Gungirl]

More people with no experience talking out of their *** about handling monitors. It isn't an opinion. Handling causes stress on the monitor, and stress kills monitor.

Go handle yours, enjoy your dead captive because you where too stupid to listen to people with experience.

you do realize that being an a$$ is no way to get people to listen to your Opinion...

[Dehlida]

you do realize that being an a$$ is no way to get people to listen to your Opinion...
I've tried to explain logically. I can repeat it til I'm blue in the face. Sometimes people are just too stupid to understand.

[Lankyrob]

Calling people stupid for having a different opinion is really going to help you get your point across - well done! :)

[reptile65]

Calling people stupid for having a different opinion is really going to help you get your point across - well done! :)

Are you surprised? This thread is no different than any other that Dehlida has posted in on this forum. If people don't agree with HIS way of doing things, they are wrong, stupid, ignorant, etc, etc.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Oh wait....He is the almighty monitor god who knows all the FACTS about their care, therefore everyone else is wrong. How silly of me.... :rolleyes:

[Jay]

.He is the almighty monitor god who knows all the FACTS about their care:rolleyes:
Why is everyone so blind? Not once has he posted that he knows everything. Everyone is acting like a little cry baby. He is helping by telling you FACTS on proper Monitor care. He is being blunt, deal with it and take his advice. I am under the understand that you hard headed folk have gathered all your information from the net, and outdated books. A small search you will find things like this;

Things To Consider Before You Buy
They are not naturally tame and so significant time must be spent with them the first year to tame them, and then regular time must be spent interacting with them to keep them tame. If not tamed, you may end up with a flighty, squirmy or aggressive lizard who is no pleasure to handle--or even to go near. They prefer a routine, with regular feeding and cleaning times. . During the day, temperatures should range from 85-90 F (29-32 C). At night, it can drop about 10-15 degrees, to 75-85 F (24-29 C). With young lizards, it's a good idea to start by handling them and petting them on the neck and sides. This should be done for brief periods every day, a few times a day. How tame your lizard will become will depend on how much time you spend handling them, and the general personality of the lizard you have selected. In our experience, Savannahs tend to be very sweet and docile if handled frequently when they are young, and they can become almost like a dog. Young animals are usually tamed much easier. Some monitors, no matter how much they are handled, will remain wary and aggressive. This is why you really need to carefully choose a good "pet" candidate, when first purchasing a lizard."

[TeaNinja]

Why is everyone so blind? Not once has he posted that he knows everything. Everyone is acting like a little cry baby. He is helping by telling you FACTS on proper Monitor care. He is being blunt, deal with it and take his advice. I am under the understand that you hard headed folk have gathered all your information from the net, and outdated books. A small search you will find things like this;


Things To Consider Before You Buy


They are not naturally tame and so significant time must be spent with them the first year to tame them, and then regular time must be spent interacting with them to keep them tame. If not tamed, you may end up with a flighty, squirmy or aggressive lizard who is no pleasure to handle--or even to go near. They prefer a routine, with regular feeding and cleaning times.
. During the day, temperatures should range from 85-90 F (29-32 C). At night, it can drop about 10-15 degrees, to 75-85 F (24-29 C). With young lizards, it's a good idea to start by handling them and petting them on the neck and sides. This should be done for brief periods every day, a few times a day. How tame your lizard will become will depend on how much time you spend handling them, and the general personality of the lizard you have selected. In our experience, Savannahs tend to be very sweet and docile if handled frequently when they are young, and they can become almost like a dog. Young animals are usually tamed much easier. Some monitors, no matter how much they are handled, will remain wary and aggressive. This is why you really need to carefully choose a good "pet" candidate, when first purchasing a lizard."


wait for it.......hahahaha. i like how i got verbally assaulted for saying they and dogs had similarities.
honestly jay, if he was so smart, he's spend his time actually being right instead of arguing and slandering people for having differing opinions. in the beginning if he'd have even givin me some REAL FACTS about monitor handling, sure. but all we got was "you're an idiot and you will kill a monitor if you ever get one" not to mention he's been telling me i have no idea about husbandry and my snakes are beginner snakes. he's been digging into me for like 3 pages because i have a different opinion and you're just eating his bs with a shovel.

[Dehlida]

I am actually right. Go ask on a respected monitor forum like varanus.nl or repticzone, with people who have big captive perfect monitors. They will tell you the exact same thing that I am. Hands off leads to a healthier monitor, it is stressful for them. Period, end of story. Daniel Bennett a well respected man in the varanid field will tell you this. He's the one who published the paper on bosc monitor diet being strictly inverts. Crocdoc, a well studied zoologist will tell you this.

Clearly we are all wrong, the random kids with 0 monitors all know more than those of us who have monitors and are educated.

When I tell you something about monitors is a fact, it is a FACT. You're view is 100% invalid in the face of science and educated individuals.

[Jay]

wait for it.......hahahaha. i like how i got verbally assaulted for saying they and dogs had similarities.
honestly jay, if he was so smart, he's spend his time actually being right instead of arguing and slandering people for having differing opinions. in the beginning if he'd have even givin me some REAL FACTS about monitor handling, sure. but all we got was "you're an idiot and you will kill a monitor if you ever get one" not to mention he's been telling me i have no idea about husbandry and my snakes are beginner snakes. he's been digging into me for like 3 pages because i have a different opinion and you're just eating his bs with a shovel.
Wait for it......Grow up kid. I was showing you how much WRONG information is out there. Author claims a 90 basking...

[TeaNinja]

you're STILL trying to ram "facts" down my throat. i'm STILL talking about an opinion. the amount you handle an animal, whether you like it or not, IS AN OPINION. the fact that you won't acknowledge it not only makes you immature imo, but just goes to show that you are a forum troll looking to piss people off. if not, you would have been mature about this whole situation. instead it's you badmouthing me and telling people not to listen to anything i say about reptiles in general.

Wait for it......Grow up kid. I was showing you how much WRONG information is out there. Author claims a 90 basking...


and once again, im going to say I DONT KNOW ABOUT MONITOR HUSBANDRY.
i didn't even LOOK at the temps. i read what it said about handling and being almost like a dog. i dont give a CRAP about anything else. this ENTIRE thread the ONLY thing i've argued is his OPINION about how much you can handle them. i don't even plan on buying a monitor, and if i ever do i will do ample research as i always do on the animals i own, but it's a free ****in country, i can state my opinion that his opinion is bs if i want to.

[Jay]

you're STILL trying to ram "facts" down my throat. i'm STILL talking about an opinion, you reject. the amount you handle an animal, whether you like it or not, IS AN OPINION. the fact that you won't acknowledge it not only makes you immature imo, but just goes to show that you are a forum troll looking to piss people off. if not, you would have been mature about this whole situation. instead it's you badmouthing me and telling people not to listen to anything i say about reptiles in general. oh and of course, listen to 100% of everything the monitor guru says, cuz he clearly knows more.

IT IS NOT AN OPINION. YOU ARE CHOOSING TO STRESS YOUR ANIMAL FOR YOUR PERSONAL PLEASURE! Are you going to kill it if you take it out for a short period of time? NO Are you going to be stressing it? YES

[Dehlida]

you're STILL trying to ram "facts" down my throat. i'm STILL talking about an opinion, you reject. the amount you handle an animal, whether you like it or not, IS AN OPINION. the fact that you won't acknowledge it not only makes you immature imo, but just goes to show that you are a forum troll looking to piss people off. if not, you would have been mature about this whole situation. instead it's you badmouthing me and telling people not to listen to anything i say about reptiles in general. oh and of course, listen to 100% of everything the monitor guru says, cuz he clearly knows more.


and once again, im going to say I DONT KNOW ABOUT MONITOR HUSBANDRY.
i didn't even LOOK at the temps. i read what it said about handling and being almost like a dog. i dont give a CRAP about anything else. this ENTIRE thread the ONLY thing i've argued is his OPINION about how much you can handle them.
Several well educated people, who study and keep these animals for a living disagree with you and tell you that being hands off is in FACT a better way to keep your monitor.

Monitors should NEVER be treated like dogs. They should be handled as little as humanely possible. This is a well documented fact. The problem is, this kids got an ego and wont admit he is wrong despite PROFESSIONALS agreeing with me.

Clearling the 17 year old punk *** kid with 3 snakes knows more than the people with college degrees and field studies on the monitors. My bad mate, you're clearly in the right here.

[TeaNinja]

i'm 22, and we clearly have varying opinions. at least one of us is adult enough to admit it. for the 4th time i'm going to agree to disagree and be out.

the point that you think not handling is a fact, just makes you a moron in my book. you know about monitors, but you're lacking some common sense.

[Jay]

i'm 22, and we clearly have varying opinions. at least one of us is adult enough to admit it. for the 4th time i'm going to agree to disagree and be out.

the point that you think not handling is a fact, just makes you a moron in my book. you know about monitors, but you're lacking some common sense.
You love this. Why else would you keep replying. You are the one doing it for cheap thrills. So out of the 22yrs of your life how much "hands on" Monitor experience do you have? In my opinion I should get a $50 raise at work, not have to pay for gas or rent.

[TeaNinja]

i just think it's funny that i had a real point and everyone is making a joke of it. i disagree that not handling your monitor is a fact. if everyone can't see that....i just don't get it.

i know a person with a sav, and i know a person with a tegu. neither of them handle excesively, but they definetly get handled.

[Jay]

What real point? You forgot to state your Monitor experience. I think I know why.

[Dehlida]

Your point is invalid and wrong. You are wrong. You shouldn't own any animals period due to your inability to learn and become educated on them. You have no idea what the hell you are doing and you're trying to call out people with 30+ years of monitor experience.

Please, for the love of god, just go away so as to not confuse new monitor keepers.

[TeaNinja]

because i've told you like 5 times. i've never owned one, but i've watched my friends own them and i've handled them. i don't need ANY experience to know that he's wrong saying handling your sav will kill it.

Your point is invalid and wrong. You are wrong. You shouldn't own any animals period due to your inability to learn and become educated on them. You have no idea what the hell you are doing and you're trying to call out people with 30+ years of monitor experience.



Please, for the love of god, just go away so as to not confuse new monitor keepers.


lol, my point. my animals are healthy and happy and you have no idea what i know. i havn't claimed to know one thing about you, yet you seem to know exactly how "bad" i am.

i wish i could have the high council teach me telepathy also, then maybe i could hold the entitlement you do.

[Jay]

I would not get offended if you attempted I am making an educated guess of who you are based on how you post and what not.
What I have gathered is you are a 22yr old male who lives at home with his family, who loves his dog very much. You have very little experience with Reptiles. Zero experience with Monitors. Your Spelling is something of a uneducated pot head (Not saying you are) You have a small or possibly underdeveloped cerebral cortex. You wont back down even though deep in your mind you know your wrong but your high ego wont let you admit it. You say you're done, yet you keep posting. If you respond to this, it proves how childish you are and your Teenage girl attitude towards people telling you are wrong.

[TeaNinja]

my spelling is bomb lol. my grammar and punctuation isn't the finest. but i am a stoner with no college education. i don't need proper grammar and punctuation to get my point across. it matters not that my grammer isn't perfect on the snake forum lol. if i had a job that required a high education and perfect grammar, i'd have it.

i KNOW i'm not wrong, and honestly, i don't understand how you can agree handling your monitor will kill it. that's just idiocy.

[Jay]

I meant your general Grammar, Punctuality and spelling. I am not downing for you do not need to spell perfect this is no test either. Just a reflection of you character. I loved the 10 second post. You are probably repeatedly refreshing the page as a type to see what I said get a life kid. You should capitalize your "I's" as well.

[TeaNinja]

lol. i like how you say it doesn't matter, then you tell me to capitalize my i's. here's a suggestion, go blow yourself.

and YES, i do repeatedly refresh. that's what i do on forums.

[Jay]

my spelling is bomb lol. my grammar and punctuation isn't the finest. but i am a stoner with no college education. i don't need proper grammar and punctuation to get my point across. it matters not that my grammer isn't perfect on the snake forum lol. if i had a job that required a high education and perfect grammar, i'd have it.

i KNOW i'm not wrong, and honestly, i don't understand how you can agree handling your monitor will kill it. that's just idiocy.
And congratulations you can right click the red line under your misspelled word.

[TeaNinja]

i don't need to because i can spell like a champ, not that it means anything lol.

[Jay]

Really now you have resulted to that. I cant begin to type what I think of your precious avatar.

[TeaNinja]

bring it lol.

[Jay]

i don't need to because i can spell like a champ, not that it means anything lol.
Capatilization and punctuality are far more important then spelling.

[TeaNinja]

HERE?? give me ONE reason why lol.
maybe two reasons....

[Jay]

bring it lol.
*Bring it.
Id rather not look like a fool. But this is unbelievable. My train is here, I apreciate you keeping me busy, giving me and all my co works a real laugh while we waited. You are nothing but a child with NO experience with reptiles. I'm done I wont reply to anyhting else you say. on this topic if you would like me to post studies and actual facts let me know, because this is dumb.

[TeaNinja]

good luck not choking on your spit.
oh sorry, Good luck.

[Lankyrob]

*Bring it.
Id rather not look like a fool. But this is unbelievable. My train is here, I apreciate you keeping me busy, giving me and all my co works a real laugh while we waited. You are nothing but a child with NO experience with reptiles. I'm done I wont reply to anyhting else you say. on this topic if you would like me to post studies and actual facts let me know, because this is dumb.


Oooh bad grammar - no capital 'O'!!! ;) ;) (Just trying to lighten the mood a little!) :)

[TeaNinja]

:D awesome.

[Jay]

Oooh bad grammar - no capital 'O'!!! ;) ;) (Just trying to lighten the mood a little!) :)
Haha, Nice eye. It's actually a misplaced period. I think Tea is having one now XD

[Gungirl]

I think our moderator needs to close this thread and get rid of the lame attempt for one person to out smart the other ... when all was stated was an opinion taken for a fact.

All this spelling bullsh!t is not worth having a thread about..

Jay you are no better than Tea when it comes to childish behavior and refreshing the page every minute to see what someone else wrote.. you clearly show that by how you reply.

[marvelfreak]

I think our moderator needs to close this thread and get rid of the lame attempt for one person to out smart the other ... when all was stated was an opinion taken for a fact.

I so agree. I wouldn't take advice from any of them after reading this thread. I prefer to take advice from adults. LOL :rolleyes:

[Jay]

Really why do people keep feeding this.
That was an unnecessary comment. Don't post unless you have something valid. Obviously I went to far and I looked for things to bicker about I'm sorry If I have offended anybody. Facts are Facts and opinions are opinions.

[infernalis]

Done deal.... no more of this.