Egg binding. Any sort of DIY advice?

[Dehlida]

I have a big female pit- she's never been bred and I've had her for a long time. She's always been a great captive with an amazing appetite. A couple months ago she went off feed- which wasn't a huge concern in my eyes and I figured she'd come around eventually but come to find out about a week ago she's obviously gravid with a clutch of infertiles- and by clutch I count around 12.

Normally this wouldn't be a problem- moist lay box yada yada however, she has scale damage at her cloaca preventing her from passing eggs on her own (which is why I was never going to breed her). So after a week I've managed to get 4 out, as soon as one peaks out I can get it the rest of the way and free her.

Any sort of home remedies for this sort of thing? I'd hate to lose her as she's a beautiful snake, but at the same time I'm basically at a loss on how to get the eggs out of her safely, and I'm starting to think dispatching her may be the best option...

[Lankyrob]

Surely a vet would be a better option than euthanizing the snake? They should be able to get the eggs out with minimal damage to the snake.

[Dehlida]

Surely a vet would be a better option than euthanizing the snake? They should be able to get the eggs out with minimal damage to the snake.
Not a fan of this route, not willing to spend a fortune on vet bills for a snake that may or may not recover ok. Not to mention the fact it undergoes pain the entire time, and while it heals, not to mention this problem is probable to pop up again in the future.

[Lankyrob]

Sorry - are you saying it is in constant pain anyway? Without the egg binding?

[Dehlida]

Sorry - are you saying it is in constant pain anyway? Without the egg binding?
With mammals we can treat pain with various drugs, after surgery you go through a time with lots of pain meds + bedrest. Take a snake, cut its belly open and remove the eggs and stitch it closed. It doesn't get pain meds, as you can't really dose a reptile for it. Not only that- but it has to slither on it's stitched wound until it fully heals up. Now add in the fact it will probably happen again next year. Pretty bad way to live.

I'm not a fan of vets at all (and I'm taking vet courses). A lot of the money dumped into certain animals simply because of the emotional attachment is pretty dumb in my opinion. I had a friend invest a ton into medicating an old sick dog only to have it die. Even if it recovered it was another year tops to live, all the while in lots of pain. I think adopting another dog + supporting a local shelter would have been a better use of a few thousand dollars...

[reptile65]

With mammals we can treat pain with various drugs, after surgery you go through a time with lots of pain meds + bedrest. Take a snake, cut its belly open and remove the eggs and stitch it closed. It doesn't get pain meds, as you can't really dose a reptile for it. Not only that- but it has to slither on it's stitched wound until it fully heals up. Now add in the fact it will probably happen again next year. Pretty bad way to live.

I'm not a fan of vets at all (and I'm taking vet courses). A lot of the money dumped into certain animals simply because of the emotional attachment is pretty dumb in my opinion. I had a friend invest a ton into medicating an old sick dog only to have it die. Even if it recovered it was another year tops to live, all the while in lots of pain. I think adopting another dog + supporting a local shelter would have been a better use of a few thousand dollars...

It's all about quality of life. As long as the animal still seems like it wants to live and has a decent quality of life, I believe you should do your best to help it out.

Egg binding in snakes can be fixed without major surgery and the snake would have a very good chance of recovering fully. The eggs can be aspirated with a needle so that they are easier to pass. I personally wouldn't euthanize a snake due to egg binding unless the problem got very severe.

Also, I'm a future veterinarian and an employee at an animal hospital, so I can't understand why you "aren't a fan of vets at all". Vets spend their lives trying to help animals have the best lives possible and I don't know what we as pet owners would do without them.

[Dehlida]

It's all about quality of life. As long as the animal still seems like it wants to live and has a decent quality of life, I believe you should do your best to help it out.

Egg binding in snakes can be fixed without major surgery and the snake would have a very good chance of recovering fully. The eggs can be aspirated with a needle so that they are easier to pass. I personally wouldn't euthanize a snake due to egg binding unless the problem got very severe.

Also, I'm a future veterinarian and an employee at an animal hospital, so I can't understand why you "aren't a fan of vets at all". Vets spend their lives trying to help animals have the best lives possible and I don't know what we as pet owners would do without them.

I'm not a fan of using vets I should say, I have no problem with vets as people or what they do. I disagree with the vast majority of things PEOPLE do based upon emotional attachment, not what is best for the actual animal. I will be trying the aspiration thing and seeing if that works. She has a huge clutch and it may be too far along, but I'm not made of money, and I certainly would never sink a ton of money into a snake.

[Will0W783]

While I do understand your opinion, Dehilda, I think that this may not be the forum for you. Most people here consider their snakes primarily their pets, and get offended at views like yours. I have several large-scale snake breeder friends who would agree with you. Have you checked out the Bush League Breeders' Club? There is a thread on egg-binding in carpet pythons by Mike Curtin on there.

I wish you the best of luck, however, I am personally irritated by your attitude. The snake will not be in constant pain if it is properly cared for, and once your snake has had an episode of egg binding that required veterinary intervention, you SHOULD NOT breed it again. So it wont' happen again next year, because if you are responsible to the animal, you won't breed it again.

What would you prefer? Letting it suffer, slowly and painfully dying in its cage, rather than take it to a vet and "sink money into it"? People that keep snakes, or any animal for that matter, just for the money and refuse to see the creatures as living, breathing, feeling animals, just disgust me. I wish you the best of luck, and I hope that your snake recovers and is not bred again. But your attitude towards the animal's well-being has p*ssed me off.

[Dehlida]

While I do understand your opinion, Dehilda, I think that this may not be the forum for you. Most people here consider their snakes primarily their pets, and get offended at views like yours. I have several large-scale snake breeder friends who would agree with you. Have you checked out the Bush League Breeders' Club? There is a thread on egg-binding in carpet pythons by Mike Curtin on there.
It's a difference of opinion, doesn't mean my information nor the information I gain from others here is less valueable.

I wish you the best of luck, however, I am personally irritated by your attitude. The snake will not be in constant pain if it is properly cared for, and once your snake has had an episode of egg binding that required veterinary intervention, you SHOULD NOT breed it again. So it wont' happen again next year, because if you are responsible to the animal, you won't breed it again.
Clearly you didn't take the time to read the entire post. I did not breed this snake, it has never had contact with a male of any sort at any time in its life, for the specific reason that it has scale damage and could NOT pass eggs. She has 100% infertile eggs. I'm personally irritated that you couldn't bother to read the entire post and instead want to point fingers.

What would you prefer? Letting it suffer, slowly and painfully dying in its cage, rather than take it to a vet and "sink money into it"? People that keep snakes, or any animal for that matter, just for the money and refuse to see the creatures as living, breathing, feeling animals, just disgust me. I wish you the best of luck, and I hope that your snake recovers and is not bred again. But your attitude towards the animal's well-being has p*ssed me off.
Again, the snake was never bred. However, at this point, I'm attemping to remove the eggs myself. Not everyone who keeps snakes sees several hundred dollars worth of vet bills as worth it, the same way people with dogs feel after theirs is hit by a car. Can you repair the dog? Sure, do people always have the money, nope, and the dog is put down FREQUENTLY because of this issue.

My pets get full vet care, hell my dog just got out of the vet after spending a bunch of money when she was attacked by another dog. However, going out and spending a small fortune on every animal I come across that is injured, rather than making the judgement of putting some of them down humanely simpy isn't practical. Get off your high horse.

[Will0W783]

Dehilda, I'm sorry I misread the post. I thought you had bred it yourself and were refusing to get it proper veterinary care. I am sorry I offended you, but I still see no difference between a snake and a dog. I personally have spent a small fortune when one of my snakes gets ill. But then you're right- it is a difference in opinion. If you didn't breed the snake, then it isn't your fault and I'm sorry I jumped down your throat. I feel like a bit of a heel now. :(

As for help and advice..have you tried warm soaks?

[ilovemypets1988]

ok so to summarise:

shes gravid with non fertile eggs,
eggs get stuck
you get 4 eggs out urself while more are still stuck inside her

you wont spend money on getting this sorted and to get the snake well again, even though its a living breathing animal.

so why exactly do you have the snake in the first place, im not trying to offend anyone, just trying to get a point across.

[Dehlida]

Dehilda, I'm sorry I misread the post. I thought you had bred it yourself and were refusing to get it proper veterinary care. I am sorry I offended you, but I still see no difference between a snake and a dog. I personally have spent a small fortune when one of my snakes gets ill. But then you're right- it is a difference in opinion. If you didn't breed the snake, then it isn't your fault and I'm sorry I jumped down your throat. I feel like a bit of a heel now. :(

As for help and advice..have you tried warm soaks?
I would never purposefully put the snake into harms way only to deny it proper care. I got the snake with the hope this would never happen, but somethings these things do.

I've been keeping up warm soaks daily, along with a moist hide box with plenty of lay material and extra water in the enclosure in a larger water pan. So far I've extracted 3 eggs myself, and she passed one smaller one on her own in her water dish. Only the first egg was calcified, the rest are someone easy, but I will say- these eggs are massive, probably 3 inches long and easily 1.5 inches across.

[Dehlida]

ok so to summarise:

shes gravid with non fertile eggs,
eggs get stuck
you get 4 eggs out urself while more are still stuck inside her

you wont spend money on getting this sorted and to get the snake well again, even though its a living breathing animal.

so why exactly do you have the snake in the first place, im not trying to offend anyone, just trying to get a point across.
I have a difference in beliefs. If this snake was my pet, an animal I had a deep emotional attachement to, such as my water monitor, I'd have no issue taking it to the vet. However no, I'm not the type of person to rush off every animal I own to a vet.

I'm the type of person- when I encounter wildlife hit by a car, I put it out of its misery. My girlfriend tries to save it. Both views are accepted by different people and both are 100% fine.

[Will0W783]

Hmm, I wonder why she became gravid with infertiles. Poor thing. I am really sorry I came across so harsh- I get angry too when people attack me. I just got a different impression from what you wrote than you meant...I will be more careful in noting details before I get upset next time. :-/

It sounds like you are doing all you can. Here is a link to the egg-binding thread on BLBC I mentioned. It's by a good friend of mine. Eggbound Jungle: Treatment and Outcome - Bush-League Breeders Club (http://www.reptileradio.net/reptileradio/showthread.php?t=20735&highlight=binding)
I don't know if it will help you...I can't remember all the details, but I remember that it had good advice in it. Thankfully I haven't had to deal with egg-binding yet, and hope I never do.

[Will0W783]

btw, I still think you should take her to the vet. I do understand your viewpoint, but I think she still has a good chance of survival, so why not take the chance and give her the best shot?

[reptile65]

btw, I still think you should take her to the vet. I do understand your viewpoint, but I think she still has a good chance of survival, so why not take the chance and give her the best shot?

I agree. I think you should at least get a vet's opinion. You can then make a better informed decision as to what treatment is best at this point.

[Dehlida]

btw, I still think you should take her to the vet. I do understand your viewpoint, but I think she still has a good chance of survival, so why not take the chance and give her the best shot?
Because being self employed with reptiles as my only source of paying the rent, sometimes I have to make rough calls in life. I adopted a standard policy for my snakes some time ago- if every snake in my collection became ill I would not vet them all, I would simply humanely kill off the collection. I won't play favorites or change stuff around, if I had all the money in the world, and no worries in life, I would consider taking her to the vet however right now that is not an option.

I agree. I think you should at least get a vet's opinion. You can then make a better informed decision as to what treatment is best at this point.
$60 to get an opinion from the only vet in the city who knows anything about reptiles. The advice I'm getting from some people online is pretty standard: surgery is the best method of extraction short of what I can do in the saftey of my own home. I've done mild stuff before, and I'd rather remove the eggs myself rather than pay someone with half as much exotic knowledge as myself to do the same thing..

[Lankyrob]

I kinda agree that htere are differences of opinion - especially with wildlife found on the side of the road (personally i would probably put an animal out of its misery in this situation too) - however this animal lives with you through YOUR choice and in my opinion that makes you responsible to do everything you can to ensure it has as long and healthy a life as it can.

As this snake can obviously not carry eggs healthily i would be looking at a hysterectomy being administered at the same time as the eggs were removed. I realise this is not a procedure regularly carried out for reptiles as it had little benefit to their behaviour/health unlike with cats and dogs but in the case of an animal that has severe risks to its health any/every time it produces eggs i would be seriously considering it.

[Will0W783]

however this animal lives with you through YOUR choice and in my opinion that makes you responsible to do everything you can to ensure it has as long and healthy a life as it can.

I think this is the main point of what had me so riled up...I don't lose my temper very often, but it does bother me when someone would rather end a life than do all they can to try to help it. My personal feeling is, if you can't afford the potential vet care an animal MIGHT need down the road, don't get the animal in the first place. Wild animals are one thing- nature is cruel (but my fiance and I still stop the car and put turtles in the grass if we see them trying to cross the road, and such), but a captive animal is true responsibility. Dehilda, what I still don't understand is why you say the snake is not your pet- how did you get it? Why does your monitor have a special place in your heart but your snake does not? Why did you get the snake if you knew you couldn't afford to take it to a vet were something to happen? Why'd you get a female?
I did come down hard in my first post, and I apologized, but I'm still really bothered by the whole situation. I understand your viewpoint and opinion, but I'll never agree with it.

[Lankyrob]

I understand your viewpoint and opinion, but I'll never agree with it.

And this is why you are such a respected poster on this forum! :)

[Dehlida]

I think this is the main point of what had me so riled up...I don't lose my temper very often, but it does bother me when someone would rather end a life than do all they can to try to help it. My personal feeling is, if you can't afford the potential vet care an animal MIGHT need down the road, don't get the animal in the first place. Wild animals are one thing- nature is cruel (but my fiance and I still stop the car and put turtles in the grass if we see them trying to cross the road, and such), but a captive animal is true responsibility. Why does your monitor have a special place in your heart but your snake does not? Why did you get the snake if you knew you couldn't afford to take it to a vet were something to happen? Why'd you get a female?
I did come down hard in my first post, and I apologized, but I'm still really bothered by the whole situation. I understand your viewpoint and opinion, but I'll never agree with it.
I have pets, and then a have a business. This snake is a part of my business, not a pet. As you may know- many large scale breeders feel the same way about their snakes.
I have over 50 snakes, 1 of them is worth the potential of a vet, it is a pet, and treated as such, the same way my gf takes care of hers. The rest of them however, are not pets and are a business venture. Even if I had the cash in my hand right now, I would not take this animal to a vet, not unless I was extremely rich, even then- I wouldn't have this snake as it isn't a pet and I wouldn't need to run a business would I? I got her when I was young, and didn't have the snake sexed before hand.

[Will0W783]

At one point I had 36 snakes, and I'm a student going to school. I do not use a vet for routine issues like bad shed, constipation, RI and such. Those are things that I know how to treat and have the medicines and supplies on hand to do so...properly.
However, when problems arose that were beyond my experience, I still went to the vet. Regardless of how many snakes you own, they are still living, breathing creatures and feel pain and discomfort.
I have in a few cases spent way more money on vet care than a snake initially cost, and it made things hard on me, but in my opinion when you take on an animal you are accepting the responsibility of its care, whatever the cost may be. Whether it's as a business, or as a pet...it's still a creature that is alive and can feel pain as well as comfort. Even the large breeders, at least the ones I choose to be friends with, will take a snake to a vet if they feel it's something they cannot treat at home. It's part of the cost of doing business with live animals.

[Dehlida]

At one point I had 36 snakes, and I'm a student going to school. I do not use a vet for routine issues like bad shed, constipation, RI and such. Those are things that I know how to treat and have the medicines and supplies on hand to do so...properly.
However, when problems arose that were beyond my experience, I still went to the vet. Regardless of how many snakes you own, they are still living, breathing creatures and feel pain and discomfort.
I have in a few cases spent way more money on vet care than a snake initially cost, and it made things hard on me, but in my opinion when you take on an animal you are accepting the responsibility of its care, whatever the cost may be. Whether it's as a business, or as a pet...it's still a creature that is alive and can feel pain as well as comfort. Even the large breeders, at least the ones I choose to be friends with, will take a snake to a vet if they feel it's something they cannot treat at home. It's part of the cost of doing business with live animals.
Again this is a disagreement. Naturually in the wild the snake would die or be eaten, at least I hit a middle ground and do my best in most cases, however I won't dump the hundreds of dollars into the snake. Killing is quick, painless, and humane. If I can kill rats to feed to my snake- rats that are perfectly healthy and deserve a "shot" at life, and are living breathing creatures than I should be able to make the same decision towards the snakes in my collection. I wouldn't put in vet bills for my feeder rats now I would I? ;)

[NennaMeerkat]

Owning any animal simply to make profit off its offspring to me is not a way to make a living. You, and some other snake breeders, seem to me to be running the equivilant of a "puppy mill". Now this snake has the potential of costing you money, and though you are doing a lot of home remedies the moment the word "vet" is mentioned you are ready to...in your own words...dispatch the animal. You use the excuse of not being able to use pain killers to not do the procedure as well as the snake not recovering. Honestly I think it is just that...an excuse.

I have personally taken rats to be put down by a vet because they have had cancers and a poor quality of life. Yeah I spent money with a vet on rats.

Honestly, like many people here I cannot understand your opinion.

[Jay]

I have pets, and then a have a business. This snake is a part of my business, not a pet. As you may know- many large scale breeders feel the same way about their snakes.
I have over 50 snakes, 1 of them is worth the potential of a vet, it is a pet, and treated as such, the same way my gf takes care of hers. The rest of them however, are not pets and are a business venture. Even if I had the cash in my hand right now, I would not take this animal to a vet, not unless I was extremely rich, even then- I wouldn't have this snake as it isn't a pet and I wouldn't need to run a business would I? I got her when I was young, and didn't have the snake sexed before hand.

So you are equivalent to a puppy mill ...Disgusting! I do understand breeding for profit. My father and Uncle both breed reptiles, when one becomes ill or un breed-able it gets fixed and re-homed to the appropriate person. I am not saying you could have prevented this, but it seems that you are in the wrong business if you can afford to take care of the species you're depending on. Please go find another income and re home that snake to someone who respects it for what it is.

[reptile65]

I have pets, and then a have a business. This snake is a part of my business, not a pet. As you may know- many large scale breeders feel the same way about their snakes.
I have over 50 snakes, 1 of them is worth the potential of a vet, it is a pet, and treated as such, the same way my gf takes care of hers. The rest of them however, are not pets and are a business venture. Even if I had the cash in my hand right now, I would not take this animal to a vet, not unless I was extremely rich, even then- I wouldn't have this snake as it isn't a pet and I wouldn't need to run a business would I? I got her when I was young, and didn't have the snake sexed before hand.

So you're just using your animals as a source of income, but not willing to give them proper medical care when they need it? Wow. As some others have already mentioned, how is this any different than a puppy mill??? These are living, breathing, creatures. They are not disposable objects. Maybe you should find a new "business venture".

[TeaNinja]

Again this is a disagreement. Naturually in the wild the snake would die or be eaten, at least I hit a middle ground and do my best in most cases, however I won't dump the hundreds of dollars into the snake. Killing is quick, painless, and humane. If I can kill rats to feed to my snake- rats that are perfectly healthy and deserve a "shot" at life, and are living breathing creatures than I should be able to make the same decision towards the snakes in my collection. I wouldn't put in vet bills for my feeder rats now I would I? ;)

lol, i just find this funny. the only reason we would dispatch a rat is for food. you wouldn't be feeding anything the snake, just killing it.

is your snake a feeder? no.

in my opinion, if you have animals as a business and refuse to get them vet care when needed, you should have animal control called on you.

what would happen if the pet stores were just killing sick animals at will? no more pet store.

[Jay]

lol, i just find this funny. the only reason we would dispatch a rat is for food. you wouldn't be feeding anything the snake, just killing it.

is your snake a feeder? no.

in my opinion, if you have animals as a business and refuse to get them vet care when needed, you should have animal control called on you.

what would happen if the pet stores were just killing sick animals at will? no more pet store.

Great point, I wish I had this guys name to report.

[LLinz]

I really hope that this person gets reported and is banned from ever owning any type of living animal again... People like this make me sick. This is a very emotional subject for me, as all of my animals were rescued or abandoned because of people like this.

[Dehlida]

The funny part is, all the reptiles that die in my care are used as feeders, and nothing is wasted. Animals who die because they are SICK are not fed out to anything, however a snake I have had for a long time who is visibally healthy I see no reason to not use it fully in it's death as a food source, so you can take that crap elsewhere.

As for cruelty, why is it that when faced with a serious medical condition that any other owner can make the decision to put their pet down, however if I make that decision, I'm cruel and should be reported? Accidents happen, illness happens, sometimes the cards simply don't play out. Saying I should be reported because I choose to humanely put down my pet rather than pay hundreds in vet bills is both ludicrous and stupid.

[TeaNinja]

The funny part is, all the reptiles that die in my care are used as feeders, and nothing is wasted. Animals who die because they are SICK are not fed out to anything, however a snake I have had for a long time who is visibally healthy I see no reason to not use it fully in it's death as a food source, so you can take that crap elsewhere.

As for cruelty, why is it that when faced with a serious medical condition that any other owner can make the decision to put their pet down, however if I make that decision, I'm cruel and should be reported? Accidents happen, illness happens, sometimes the cards simply don't play out. Saying I should be reported because I choose to humanely put down my pet rather than pay hundreds in vet bills is both ludicrous and stupid.

you appear to be missing my point. if an owner of a pet chooses to put down an animal instead of seeking vet care there is not a thing we can say or do unless you're being cruel to the animal. if you claim to run a BUSINESS revolving around your animals, i feel you are obligated to keep them all in fair health and seek vet care when needed. as i said, do we see pet stores just killing their animals? no. sometimes we see animals dieing at crappy reptile stores, but they get shut down for that, as you should if you continue to put down animals that should be seen by a vet in your "business"

and another thing...... a "business" using their animals as feeders? lol.

[Lankyrob]

The funny part is, all the reptiles that die in my care are used as feeders, and nothing is wasted. Animals who die because they are SICK are not fed out to anything, however a snake I have had for a long time who is visibally healthy I see no reason to not use it fully in it's death as a food source, so you can take that crap elsewhere.

As for cruelty, why is it that when faced with a serious medical condition that any other owner can make the decision to put their pet down, however if I make that decision, I'm cruel and should be reported? Accidents happen, illness happens, sometimes the cards simply don't play out. Saying I should be reported because I choose to humanely put down my pet rather than pay hundreds in vet bills is both ludicrous and stupid.


The difference is a pet owner will make a joint decision with a VET that an animal is not viable before making the decision to euthanize. YOu are choosing to KILL an animall just cos it might cost you some money to treat it.

[Dehlida]

you appear to be missing my point. if an owner of a pet chooses to put down an animal instead of seeking vet care there is not a thing we can say or do unless you're being cruel to the animal. if you claim to run a BUSINESS revolving around your animals, i feel you are obligated to keep them all in fair health and seek vet care when needed. as i said, do we see pet stores just killing their animals? no. sometimes we see animals dieing at crappy reptile stores, but they get shut down for that, as you should if you continue to put down animals that should be seen by a vet in your "business"

and another thing...... a "business" using their animals as feeders? lol.
Snakes and Lizards do eat other snakes, why would I waste anything that would happen naturally? This boggles my mind. White rats are a far more unatural food source.

I actually spoke with a friend of mine who is a liscensed vet and very accomplished for over 20 years, and had her take a look at it. The consensus was the safest way was surgery, however the problem is likely to arise again every year around this time, especially given the fact she wasn't eating extra, and wasn't cooled. She was kept in a very expensive caging system at one of my best friends houses in optimal care (she was being used in a display at the time). - The advice was that the best option if this isn't easily remedied both for myself on my budget, and the SNAKES BEST INTEREST, would be to put down the snake.

[TeaNinja]

jesus you're hard to get through to. a BUSINESS shouldn't feed their stock animals to other stock animals, period.
if you do, you're either NOT a business, or you're a business that should be shut down.

i have no problems with snakes and lizards eating each other.

[Dehlida]

jesus you're hard to get through to. a BUSINESS shouldn't feed their stock animals to other stock animals, period.
if you do, you're either NOT a business, or you're a business that should be shut down.

i have no problems with snakes and lizards eating each other.
Why? If I have an animal die, freeze it for 2 weeks, and feed it out, how is it any different than the fact I breed rodents and sell rodents? Both are part of the BUSINESS, clearly I should get rats from an outside source!

[Jay]

a "business" using their animals as feeders? lol.
Your methods of running your so called business are unbelievable. I understand the attempt you're making, you wont get far with your methods.
I'm sure you have healthy snakes as well, but when one gets injured or ill what happens to the snake. The difference between you and a REAL breeder is a long list. (Be creative)

[TeaNinja]

the difference is feeder rats are bred for the sole purpose of being euthanized and fed, your stock animals are bred to be sold and cared for as pets and should get the vet care that goes along with it. you're clearly just trying to stir **** up so i'm gonna stop feeding into it. good luck not getting shut down.

[Dehlida]

Not getting shut down? Because of a variance of opinions? Farms that raise goldfish feed their goldfish OTHER DEAD GOLDFISH. I'm not feeding chicken to chickens, I'm feeding a dead snake to another predator, one that would naturally in the wild eat snakes.

The funny part is- even with the vet opinion being surgery in the hundreds almost every year, you guys would rather put your snake/pocketbooks through surgery every year than humanely put the snake down. I'm going to try my home remedies, if they don't work the snake will be euthanized as suggested by my friend. Period, if you don't like the vet's opinion - take it elsewhere. You may choose to spend hundreds on a snake, I do not, get over it our opinions are different.

[Jay]

the difference is feeder rats are bred for the sole purpose of being euthanized and fed, your stock animals are bred to be sold and cared for as pets and should get the vet care that goes along with it. you're clearly just trying to stir **** up so i'm gonna stop feeding into it. good luck not getting shut down.

Tea, That was not a shot at you at all. I did not mean to quote you either.
I know what you are doing with your rats, its smart. You enjoy breeding as a second hobby. Why kill your rats when you can possibly give them a better home in exchange for some frozen.

[Jay]

Not getting shut down? Because of a variance of opinions? Farms that raise goldfish feed their goldfish OTHER DEAD GOLDFISH. I'm not feeding chicken to chickens, I'm feeding a dead snake to another predator, one that would naturally in the wild eat snakes.

The funny part is- even with the vet opinion being surgery in the hundreds almost every year, you guys would rather put your snake/pocketbooks through surgery every year than humanely put the snake down. I'm going to try my home remedies, if they don't work the snake will be euthanized as suggested by my friend. Period, if you don't like the vet's opinion - take it elsewhere. You may choose to spend hundreds on a snake, I do not, get over it our opinions are different.
You are not a vet

[Dehlida]

You are not a vet
My friend who I called to get an opinion; however, is a certified to practice vet. I'm not claiming I am a vet. You are clearly upset the fact the vet agrees with me.

The funny thing is- I know a LOT of breeders who keep a few extra adult king snakes/bullsnakes around just for this time of year- to eat all the little kinked babies, or to eat snakes who refuse food. Guess they shoulda taken them all to the vet and be shut down for cruel practices.

Again since people want to get off topic with things. If you do not have something constructive to add to the original question- asking for DIY remedies for this sort of thing, please do not post in my thread further. I don't need this argument continueing for pages because we will and always will disagree. Get over it and move on.

[Jay]

^^Interesting

[Lankyrob]

Did you discuss removal of the ovaries with the vet? Then you wouldnt need year on year attention, one bill and the snake lives for a good number more years.

[Dehlida]

Did you discuss removal of the ovaries with the vet? Then you wouldnt need year on year attention, one bill and the snake lives for a good number more years.
No, I don't believe in this practice at all. The same way I don't believe in removing venom glands. Part of the reason I'll only get a dog that's already fixed- I can't go through that process myself. I saw it happen once to my first dog and she never was the same. It's a disgusting thing to do to an animal.

[Lankyrob]

But in this case it saves a life and also prevents future medical issues? I would gladly lose mine to get rid of my medical problems!

[Dehlida]

But in this case it saves a life and also prevents future medical issues? I would gladly lose mine to get rid of my medical problems!
I would never let someone remove mine under any circumstances. Yes, I'm one of those guys that would rather be shot than live without them.

[Will0W783]

I choose to humanely put down my pet rather than pay hundreds in vet bills is both ludicrous and stupid.

So now you are saying the snake IS your pet? Which is it- a money making object or a pet? SO you spoke to your friend - a vet. Why didn't you speak to your friend first, instead of stirring up a mess on here? Why did you even start this thread, if you weren't going to be willing to take any advice? Neutering dogs and cats has been shown to allow them to live healthier, longer lives and prevents thousands, nay millions, of unwanted animals being born that would end up homeless on the streets or killed. SO you don't want your 'nads removed...bully to you sir, but if your snake can possibly live a healthy life if its ovaries are removed, I think you should at least consider it.
As I mentioned before, you should not be keeping animals if you cannot afford potential medical care...you said you have 50 snakes? WHY? If you cannot and will not afford the medical care for ONE, there is no reason you should have 50. Your attitude and apparent disregard for the snake as a living creature have put you on my definitely-never-buy-from list.

Furthermore, you've really left a sour taste in my mouth from all your posts....attacking TeaNinja about his practice with his rats...why is it any of your business what he does with them? He raises rats, sells the live ones to a pet store and buys frozen ones. He prefers this to killing them himself- what is wrong with that?
And your thread about rattlesnake roundups? WTF?? That was completely unnecessary and you HAD to know that that would raise hackles around here. WHY would you even post a thread like that??? It seems to me that you enjoy creating a stir and ruffling feathers.
I'm done with this thread. I'm done with all your threads. I've spoken my opinion, and you've spoken yours. We obviously don't see eye-to-eye. I cannot, and will not, ever abide by people who accept/support mass slaughtering of snakes in roundups and will not spend money to heal an animal that is their responsibility. It's people like you that leave snakes underweight, sick and scarred out on Craigslist. (I've personally taken in several rescues that unscrupulous breeders had run ragged). I am a starting breeder, but I still consider my snakes living creatures and understand that there are risks when dealing with live creatures, and if you are not willing to accept the risks to your wallet, you should not deal in live creatures as a business. I'm done with this mess.

[Dehlida]

So now you are saying the snake IS your pet? Which is it- a money making object or a pet? SO you spoke to your friend - a vet. Why didn't you speak to your friend first, instead of stirring up a mess on here? Why did you even start this thread, if you weren't going to be willing to take any advice? Neutering dogs and cats has been shown to allow them to live healthier, longer lives and prevents thousands, nay millions, of unwanted animals being born that would end up homeless on the streets or killed. SO you don't want your 'nads removed...bully to you sir, but if your snake can possibly live a healthy life if its ovaries are removed, I think you should at least consider it.
I'm saying "pet" loosely, mainly because you guys value the animals as pets and treat them like family- something a lot of big breeders do not do. I normally would not speak to my friend about these sort of things. Vet is NEVER my first option with herps, this is why I asked on a forum dedicated to reptiles, for reptile advice on DIY methods. Notice "DIY" that doesn't mean " do it with a vet". No, I wont consider spending several hundred dollars on removing a snakes ovaries, rent matters more as does food, and other things.

As I mentioned before, you should not be keeping animals if you cannot afford potential medical care...you said you have 50 snakes? WHY? If you cannot and will not afford the medical care for ONE, there is no reason you should have 50. Your attitude and apparent disregard for the snake as a living creature have put you on my definitely-never-buy-from list.
I have 50, this is the first incident of a snake that could possibly need medical care. I don't believe in spending hundreds on snakes, regardless of owning a single snake or 5,000. I like many breeders would not vet these animals. Period. As for you not buying from me- really don't care. I said drop it, and you won't let it go. We differ in opinions, views here are more extreme than a lot of private breeders I know.

Furthermore, you've really left a sour taste in my mouth from all your posts....attacking TeaNinja about his practice with his rats...why is it any of your business what he does with them? He raises rats, sells the live ones to a pet store and buys frozen ones. He prefers this to killing them himself- what is wrong with that?
I disagree with the practice- as do other people. Notice I wasn't the only person saying these things in the thread. However it's time to single me out because of a completely seperate topic. Clever.

And your thread about rattlesnake roundups? WTF?? That was completely unnecessary and you HAD to know that that would raise hackles around here. WHY would you even post a thread like that??? It seems to me that you enjoy creating a stir and ruffling feathers.
Or I was seeing if people view things the same as I do? Speaking with different people on facebook chat I got a varying opinion. Some who thought nothing wrong with, some that did. I talked to only herp keepers so I thought maybe I'll propose a question openly on a reptile forum. I had no idea I would be publically bashed for a varying of opinion. Clearly you seem to put snakes on some sort of a pedestal above ther living creatures, which is fine, it's a snake forum. Is it realistic in my mind? No.

I'm done with this thread. I'm done with all your threads. I've spoken my opinion, and you've spoken yours. We obviously don't see eye-to-eye. I cannot, and will not, ever abide by people who accept/support mass slaughtering of snakes in roundups and will not spend money to heal an animal that is their responsibility. It's people like you that leave snakes underweight, sick and scarred out on Craigslist. (I've personally taken in several rescues that unscrupulous breeders had run ragged). I am a starting breeder, but I still consider my snakes living creatures and understand that there are risks when dealing with live creatures, and if you are not willing to accept the risks to your wallet, you should not deal in live creatures as a business. I'm done with this mess.
I asked before to stay out of the thread, but you fealt the need to keep posting. I won't lose any sleep. People like you are why people like me exist. Always someone on the other end of the road thinking something differently. The sooner you stop judging the better off you'll be ;)

[reptile65]

Again since people want to get off topic with things. If you do not have something constructive to add to the original question- asking for DIY remedies for this sort of thing, please do not post in my thread further. I don't need this argument continueing for pages because we will and always will disagree. Get over it and move on.

That's not how things work on a PUBLIC forum. If you post a thread, you better be willing to take ALL of the feedback, whether positive or negative.

You are clearly trying to stir up drama with this thread, as well as your other thread about the rattlesnake roundups.

Also, I wasn't going to say anything about this, but didn't you already get banned from this forum once? I'm seeing a lot of resemblances between your posts and a previously banned member. You've obviously just registered with a new username and are now trying to get a rise out of people.

[NennaMeerkat]

You know what I am thinking the same thing...I am seeing a bunch of similarities as well. I think for myself, and I suggest for others, that if this individual posts to just ignore them overall. Even if this isn't the same person as before I think it will cause a lot of less heartaches (so to speak) overall.

So my hats off to you Dehlida this will be my last post on anything you put up as a topic as well as ignoring you if you comment on my own. I am here for educated information and friendship...not for the mess to be stirred up.

[totheend]

I have pets, and then a have a business. This snake is a part of my business, not a pet.
.

What is your business?

[Dehlida]

That's not how things work on a PUBLIC forum. If you post a thread, you better be willing to take ALL of the feedback, whether positive or negative.

You are clearly trying to stir up drama with this thread, as well as your other thread about the rattlesnake roundups.

Also, I wasn't going to say anything about this, but didn't you already get banned from this forum once? I'm seeing a lot of resemblances between your posts and a previously banned member. You've obviously just registered with a new username and are now trying to get a rise out of people.
I asked for advice, however people have egos and feel the need to think their opinions are better than others. People feel their opinions of surgery are better than a vets suggestion of possible euthanasizing of the animal.

I have not been banned, and I haven't broken any rules as far as I can tell. I'm not posting topics or responding in a manner YOU like. I don't take my snake to the store around my neck claiming it is a member of my family. I don't pay extreme vet bills for them. I disagree with people, that is something the reptile hobby needs to get over. Period.

[Lankyrob]

I would never let someone remove mine under any circumstances. Yes, I'm one of those guys that would rather be shot than live without them.

I find this quite sad - just my opinion and not trying to start anything but this snake would live a good life without the ovaries and yes it would have a short period of discomfort during the recovery but that is something that I think should be done rather than jsut killing it.

I think that this is purely about money and nothing to do with the snake at all - you seem to have no regard for snakes as living things they are just "stock items" for your business and this is something that the reptile community doesnt need.

My 0.02cents

[TeaNinja]

What is your business?

i 2nd this. snake mill ftw.

[SnakeyJay]

Nbcthe lack of care and the fact that your not willing to take a sick animal to a vet is what our hobbie doesnt need.. This is why alot of people view herp keepers as irrisponsible and careless... You say you brought this snake knowing about the scale damage, hence you didnt want to breed her..... So what exactly is this snakes role in your "business"?
Oh and maybe your friend (vet) gave that oppinion because hes your friend? Id go get a second oppinion at least.. And how are you going to kill the snake? Cus im guessing you wont pay for that to be done humanely either.

[Ch^4]

I've read the entire thread and don't really want to comment.

However, you mentioned that this particular female will not be bred. You are running a business in which you--I'm assuming--breed snakes and sell offspring.

You said:

I have pets, and then a have a business. This snake is a part of my business, not a pet.

How is this snake part of your business? Because you also mentioned:


Normally this wouldn't be a problem- moist lay box yada yada however, she has scale damage at her cloaca preventing her from passing eggs on her own (which is why I was never going to breed her).


If you never had any intention of breeding her, does this fact not negate her role as a "business snake", thus converting her into a animal you are simply caring for (i.e., a pet)?

[totheend]

If you never had any intention of breeding her, does this fact not negate her role as a "business snake", thus converting her into a animal you are simply caring for (i.e., a pet)?

This is what I was trying to get at by asking what his business was....a question never answered.....

[TeaNinja]

that's why i requoted it this morning lol.

[totheend]

that's why i requoted it this morning lol.

Thanks :D I Don't think he is going to answer it....

[TeaNinja]

not in a way that won't piss everyone off anyway lol.

[Dehlida]

She was originally intended as a breeding snake, until I got her and found the scale damage. It would have been more of a pain to return the snake than to just keep it.

As for the second opinion- even if the second vet said the same thing people would cry until they found a vet that "omg you must save the snake". Drop the subject I'm not paying for surgeries ;)

[TeaNinja]

you're amazing at missing points.

[Jay]

When you kill the snake I wouldn't suggest using chemicals if you plan to use it as a feeder.

[reptile65]

you're amazing at missing points.

Haha yes. It seems that any further debate with this person is completely pointless.

[Dehlida]

When you kill the snake I wouldn't suggest using chemicals if you plan to use it as a feeder.
If it comes to that I will be using an instant kill via crushing both the spinal cord and the head. I'd rather die by instant hammer than by some sort of burning injection ;*(

[Will0W783]

What kind of snake is this again? If it is non-venomous..perhaps one of us here on the forum would meet you at a neutral location to get said snake. Someone who would give it veterinary care.

[Jay]

If it comes to that I will be using an instant kill via crushing both the spinal cord and the head. I'd rather die by instant hammer than by some sort of burning injection ;*(
Very true, what will you be feeding him to, or will it be going on the bbq for you? I wonder what it would taste like.

[Dehlida]

She's doing extremely well so far, no luck on the eggs however she is looking much closer to maybe getting them farther down to where I can pull them out. Frequent warm soaks and high humidity is working wonders, but she is still very spunky.

[mykee]

Wow, you're an idiot and I think you're playing up your idiocy to rile the members here.
I don't rile easily, I just tell it like it is:
If your "business" only allows for either a vet visit, or rent being paid, find a new job, you SUCK at this one.
You sound more like one of those lazy on-the-verge -of-social-assistance types that would rather try to eek out a living (and I use that term losely) rather than getting off your a$$ and getting a REAL job.
I have no problem at all telling it like I see it because I DO do this for a living, with roughly 3 times the animals you have. I don't live hand to mouth and I have more than $8 in my bank account.
Because I am a responsible pet owner, an intelligent business owner, and a decent human being, part of my income goes aside for medical expenses (I've only dipped into that fund once in 12 years).
Common sense and plain old human decency would dictate that if you keep these animals as pets (because this animal sure as hell is because she's not part of your "business" (snicker) because of her breeding issues, then it is your responsibility to provide proper care for her.
Very bad karma is coming your way.

Next, had you actually spoken to a vet (which I doubt you did; phone line or feeders?), they would have told you that this animal does NOT need surgery at all. I've had this happen before and $5 in supplies fixes this problem right up with never having to leave the house; sterilized syringe into the belly to aspirate each egg, reducing it's volume ten-fold, allowing her to easily pass the slugs.

I hope you get egg bound.

[Dehlida]

Wow, you're an idiot and I think you're playing up your idiocy to rile the members here.
I don't rile easily, I just tell it like it is:
If your "business" only allows for either a vet visit, or rent being paid, find a new job, you SUCK at this one.
You sound more like one of those lazy on-the-verge -of-social-assistance types that would rather try to eek out a living (and I use that term losely) rather than getting off your a$$ and getting a REAL job.
I have no problem at all telling it like I see it because I DO do this for a living, with roughly 3 times the animals you have. I don't live hand to mouth and I have more than $8 in my bank account.
Because I am a responsible pet owner, an intelligent business owner, and a decent human being, part of my income goes aside for medical expenses (I've only dipped into that fund once in 12 years).
Common sense and plain old human decency would dictate that if you keep these animals as pets (because this animal sure as hell is because she's not part of your "business" (snicker) because of her breeding issues, then it is your responsibility to provide proper care for her.
Very bad karma is coming your way.

Next, had you actually spoken to a vet (which I doubt you did; phone line or feeders?), they would have told you that this animal does NOT need surgery at all. I've had this happen before and $5 in supplies fixes this problem right up with never having to leave the house; sterilized syringe into the belly to aspirate each egg, reducing it's volume ten-fold, allowing her to easily pass the slugs.

I hope you get egg bound.
The vet didn't mention anything of that sort, although yes I will be trying to aspirate the animal since this does seem more logical than paying for a surgery.

I also have more than $8 in my account. I also work 45 hours a week elsewhere. I don't believe in Karma, so that nonsense doesn't matter to me.

Keep up with the personal attacks kiddo, it'll get you far in life ;)

[TeaNinja]

you're a failure lol.

[reptile65]

The vet didn't mention anything of that sort, although yes I will be trying to aspirate the animal since this does seem more logical than paying for a surgery.

I also have more than $8 in my account. I also work 45 hours a week elsewhere. I don't believe in Karma, so that nonsense doesn't matter to me.

Keep up with the personal attacks kiddo, it'll get you far in life ;)

You do realize that Mykee has WAY more experience than you, right? I'm sure he's been doing this a lot longer than you have, and to call him "kiddo" when he's a grown man is pretty disrespectful.

[shaunyboy]

Wow, you're an idiot and I think you're playing up your idiocy to rile the members here.
I don't rile easily, I just tell it like it is:
If your "business" only allows for either a vet visit, or rent being paid, find a new job, you SUCK at this one.
You sound more like one of those lazy on-the-verge -of-social-assistance types that would rather try to eek out a living (and I use that term losely) rather than getting off your a$$ and getting a REAL job.
I have no problem at all telling it like I see it because I DO do this for a living, with roughly 3 times the animals you have. I don't live hand to mouth and I have more than $8 in my bank account.
Because I am a responsible pet owner, an intelligent business owner, and a decent human being, part of my income goes aside for medical expenses (I've only dipped into that fund once in 12 years).
Common sense and plain old human decency would dictate that if you keep these animals as pets (because this animal sure as hell is because she's not part of your "business" (snicker) because of her breeding issues, then it is your responsibility to provide proper care for her.
Very bad karma is coming your way.

Next, had you actually spoken to a vet (which I doubt you did; phone line or feeders?), they would have told you that this animal does NOT need surgery at all. I've had this happen before and $5 in supplies fixes this problem right up with never having to leave the house; sterilized syringe into the belly to aspirate each egg, reducing it's volume ten-fold, allowing her to easily pass the slugs.

I hope you get egg bound.

i think you got it all spot on there mykee...!!

i have to agree the way the guy keeps slipping in " i'll do this or that rather than pay for treatment " is getting a reaction from everyone

imo his sole intention for this thread was to get said reaction

we call people like him on uk forums " troll's "

when they appear we simply don't feed the troll

we ignore his threads and do not post no matter how bad of a thing they say as its all said for effect and has nothing to do with snake keeping

this will be my only post on this thread as i don't make a habit of feeding trolls

cheers shaun

[Will0W783]

Mykee and Shaun- you guys hit the nail on the head. I too am done with this troll. He got under my skin and really peeved me off, and you guys that have known me on this forum for years know that I don't lose my patience and temper easily. This person and all his threads disgust me and infuriate me. It's not fair to the animals, and that's what upsets me, but for my own peace and sanity, I am going to ignore him...hopefully his time on this forum is short-lived.

[shaunyboy]

Mykee and Shaun- you guys hit the nail on the head. I too am done with this troll. He got under my skin and really peeved me off, and you guys that have known me on this forum for years know that I don't lose my patience and temper easily. This person and all his threads disgust me and infuriate me. It's not fair to the animals, and that's what upsets me, but for my own peace and sanity, I am going to ignore him...hopefully his time on this forum is short-lived.


your one of the forums most helpfull members kimberley

being such a decent human being,its only natural for such things to get under your skin pal

made the same mistake myself recently but won't be repeating said mistake

cheers shaun

[mykee]

Shaun, just in case starvation doesn't work....

http://www.reptilescanada.com/gallery/data/500/trollspray.jpg

[Will0W783]

::thumbs up::

HAHA...mykee that's awesome!

[Will0W783]

I still can't believe he had the gall to call you kiddo...you're a sage senior member of the forum, and have earned respect here..he's done nothing but try to pee us all off!

[reptile65]

Mykee and Shaun- you guys hit the nail on the head. I too am done with this troll. He got under my skin and really peeved me off, and you guys that have known me on this forum for years know that I don't lose my patience and temper easily. This person and all his threads disgust me and infuriate me. It's not fair to the animals, and that's what upsets me, but for my own peace and sanity, I am going to ignore him...hopefully his time on this forum is short-lived.

This person has been causing drama lately on other forums I'm a member of too... Definitely a troll if you ask me.

[Freebody]

So now you are saying the snake IS your pet? Which is it- a money making object or a pet? SO you spoke to your friend - a vet. Why didn't you speak to your friend first, instead of stirring up a mess on here? Why did you even start this thread, if you weren't going to be willing to take any advice? Neutering dogs and cats has been shown to allow them to live healthier, longer lives and prevents thousands, nay millions, of unwanted animals being born that would end up homeless on the streets or killed. SO you don't want your 'nads removed...bully to you sir, but if your snake can possibly live a healthy life if its ovaries are removed, I think you should at least consider it.
As I mentioned before, you should not be keeping animals if you cannot afford potential medical care...you said you have 50 snakes? WHY? If you cannot and will not afford the medical care for ONE, there is no reason you should have 50. Your attitude and apparent disregard for the snake as a living creature have put you on my definitely-never-buy-from list.

Furthermore, you've really left a sour taste in my mouth from all your posts....attacking TeaNinja about his practice with his rats...why is it any of your business what he does with them? He raises rats, sells the live ones to a pet store and buys frozen ones. He prefers this to killing them himself- what is wrong with that?
And your thread about rattlesnake roundups? WTF?? That was completely unnecessary and you HAD to know that that would raise hackles around here. WHY would you even post a thread like that??? It seems to me that you enjoy creating a stir and ruffling feathers.
I'm done with this thread. I'm done with all your threads. I've spoken my opinion, and you've spoken yours. We obviously don't see eye-to-eye. I cannot, and will not, ever abide by people who accept/support mass slaughtering of snakes in roundups and will not spend money to heal an animal that is their responsibility. It's people like you that leave snakes underweight, sick and scarred out on Craigslist. (I've personally taken in several rescues that unscrupulous breeders had run ragged). I am a starting breeder, but I still consider my snakes living creatures and understand that there are risks when dealing with live creatures, and if you are not willing to accept the risks to your wallet, you should not deal in live creatures as a business. I'm done with this mess.
Kim you took the words right out of my mouth, this is what i was thinking as i reached this point of the thread. im not interested in anything you have to say at this point, but i reall hope you Troll around on some other threads here, and see what humanity is doing with their animals.

[mykee]

They come, they go. I especially like the going part.
BTW, kiddo is awesome; makes me feel young again.