a little curious question

[ilovemypets1988]

what would you rather see guys:

1.) a common snake in the wild

2.) a very rare snake in a zoo (well captivity)

try to give reasons with your answers as im just wondering what people actually think and want to know your opinions on the matter

[Lankyrob]

Can i answer that i would rather see a rare snake in the wild? :rolleyes:

My ideal would be that man lived alongside nature with zero impact on natural habitats and only taking enough food from the ecosystem to live.

But back to the question in hand - i would rather see a rare snake kept PROPERLY in a zoo in order that the species isnt wiped out than for it to be left in the wild and killed by some douche bag who has no clue what they are doing.

[infernalis]

I worship common snakes in the wild.

This may sound hypocritical, as it should... But keeping animals in cages is a "human trait" only, we do it for our own gratification and amusement.

The only time keeping animals in captivity should truly be deemed NECESSARY is for species preservation & education.

Some people here are familiar with the thread I started late last year, I have dedicated a parcel of my land that is close to 3 acres in size to the construction of a herp habitat that will include a pond to attract amphibians, a brumation site for snakes and plenty of basking & hiding spots.

Studying them in the wild helps me to better my understanding of how to care for my captive specimens.

This also allows me to study parasite impact, feeding patterns and prey preferences.

[ilovemypets1988]

i see what both of you mean.
a rare and majestic creature is important in captivity for future generations to see and be able to understand and yet an animal in its natural surroundings in the wild is just as important for the ecosystem.

yet without fail its us humans that are to blame for species that become rare, whether its through over deforestation or because people are killing them because they fear the animal.

in the real world of today, its our responsibility to have these animals in captivity to make sure that they aint killed off and for that its our duty to keep these creatures alive and well.

but again im gunna contradict myself as its our pet trade that causes most of the things that mess up the animal kingdom with the idiots who release animals into an ecosystem that simply cant handle them (burms in floridas everglades is a perfect example of this).

personally though, i would prefer the rare specimens in captivity as there will never be an end to the endangered animals out there, aslong as we human beings are still alive, sorry if that seems harsh but at the end of the day, its the truth.

[infernalis]

A perfect example of the hypocrisy at hand..

In San Francisco there is a species of Garter Snake (Thamnophis Sirtalis tetrataenia) that is dangerously close to extinction due to the ever growing population centre there.

Compounded by the development of "Sharp Park" Follow the link if interested..

Wild Equity Institute: Restore Sharp Park (http://wildequity.org/sections/5)

The city of San Francisco developed a wetland into a golf course so rich people could knock balls around without any regards to the impact of the indigenous wildlife. (Another "human" trait)

However, By placing the T.S. Tetrataenia on the federal endangered species list, it is a felony to possess them in captivity within the USA, it is also a felony to harm, molest or otherwise capture them for any reason including exportation to other countries where it is legal to keep them.

So on one hand we have habitat that is being consumed by mankind's greed for real estate and on the other hand we cannot keep captive specimens to ensure that the species will not become extinct?? Ironic isn't it?

And that is ONLY one locality, one species.. This same exact process is repeating itself with alarming frequency worldwide.

http://cdn.webecoist.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/san-francisco_gartersnake.jpg

Quoted from San Francisco Garter snake | WebEcoist (http://webecoist.com/2008/11/16/8-coolest-scaliest-endangered-species/san-francisco_gartersnake/)

The San Francisco garter snake is the bay area’s most endangered species. The garter snake is protected, it’s prey, the red-legged tree frog is protected, and San Mateo county is trying hard not to let this beautiful snake fade into history. In 2001, when a San Francisco garter snake died during the construction of the San Francisco BART station, work stopped for 18 days, costing 1.07 million dollars while experts figured out a way to keep anymore from meeting the same fate.


This also explains my personal affection for Thamnophis Sirtalis Infernalis
( California Garter Snake), the closest living blood relative I am allowed by law to keep in my collection.

[ilovemypets1988]

This also explains my personal affection for Thamnophis Sirtalis Infernalis
( California Garter Snake), the closest living blood relative I am allowed by law to keep in my collection.

is that the snake that u mentioned in your little infernalis 2011 thread.

in my opinion i dont see why they dont let repitable reptile keepers (who will have to go through semi-regular inspections) to have, own and breed (for conditioning and releasing back into the wild) the S.F.Garter snake as the conservation alone would increase the population by a shed load.

they are the most beautifully coloured snake that i have ever seen and i would love to do exactly what i suggested above but that wont be for a while if at all as i would spend a few years learning all about them and there breeding cycle as i would keep them (in the best sense of the word) wild and would need to know how to "condition" the hatchlings for the wild and also be able to transport them to america without any harm coming to the snake itself.

[infernalis]

Garters are a very prolific species of snake, it's all about habitat destruction, even if we could release them, there is nowhere for them to go.

The specimens in the European pet trade all trace back to ONE single pair exported via zoo exchange back in the 1960's resulting in a very weak gene pool.

[ilovemypets1988]

Garters are a very prolific species of snake, it's all about habitat destruction, even if we could release them, there is nowhere for them to go.

The specimens in the European pet trade all trace back to ONE single pair exported via zoo exchange back in the 1960's resulting in a very weak gene pool.

ah right i didnt know that, is there a way to half breed a san fransisco garter with another and then reverse the genes back to a full s.f.garter.

[mistersprinkles]

Snakes in zoos just sit there. At best they move to another place then sit there. A snake in the wild is much more interesting. I've seen snakes hunt down toads and once I saw an eastern garter snake go into a hole and pull out a baby mouse (must have been a den).

I'd rather see natural behavior, even in a boring common snake, than watch something rare sit there and stare at a wall behind glass :).

[mistersprinkles]

ah right i didnt know that, is there a way to half breed a san fransisco garter with another and then reverse the genes back to a full s.f.garter.

If you think that's bad, look at hamsters. Worst gene pool of any captive animal, ever. ALL hamsters trace back to a mother who was found in Syria in about 1960 and bred to her offspring (she was pregnant). From there we get golden, teddybear, dwarf, etc.

I think by 2020, a 4 legged hamster will be a rarity.

Hamster intelligence has dropped significantly IMO. From 1985 when I had my first hamster, which was quite bright, until now... Wow. I worked in a pet shop in 2004 and the hamsters were like tribbles from star trek. They're all on drugs...

A perfect example of the hypocrisy at hand..

In San Francisco there is a species of Garter Snake (Thamnophis Sirtalis tetrataenia) that is dangerously close to extinction due to the ever growing population centre there.

Compounded by the development of "Sharp Park" Follow the link if interested..

Wild Equity Institute: Restore Sharp Park (http://wildequity.org/sections/5)

The city of San Francisco developed a wetland into a golf course so rich people could knock balls around without any regards to the impact of the indigenous wildlife. (Another "human" trait)

However, By placing the T.S. Tetrataenia on the federal endangered species list, it is a felony to possess them in captivity within the USA, it is also a felony to harm, molest or otherwise capture them for any reason including exportation to other countries where it is legal to keep them.

So on one hand we have habitat that is being consumed by mankind's greed for real estate and on the other hand we cannot keep captive specimens to ensure that the species will not become extinct?? Ironic isn't it?

And that is ONLY one locality, one species.. This same exact process is repeating itself with alarming frequency worldwide.

http://cdn.webecoist.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/san-francisco_gartersnake.jpg

Quoted from San Francisco Garter snake | WebEcoist (http://webecoist.com/2008/11/16/8-coolest-scaliest-endangered-species/san-francisco_gartersnake/)



This also explains my personal affection for Thamnophis Sirtalis Infernalis
( California Garter Snake), the closest living blood relative I am allowed by law to keep in my collection.


ONLY San Francisco would stop work on a train station because a snake died. I can say with 99% certainty that unless the animal were a California Condor, a Dodo, or something similarly extinct, this would happen nowhere else :yes:.

[Stormy Night]

I can answer That question without a moments hesitation. I live in Florida. If you walk to far into the woods you have a decent chance of bumping into a 25' reticulated python..cats and dogs go missing all the time. I'd take seeing a rare snake in a zoo any day of the week. Not left in a 10 gallon tank in the dark of course...but as long as they maintain its natural habitat...its probably safer there than in the wild.
BTW the 1st pic is one eating a gator. It died trying. And the 2nd is one eating a deer.

[stephanbakir]

I can answer That question without a moments hesitation. I live in Florida. If you walk to far into the woods you have a decent chance of bumping into a 25' reticulated python..cats and dogs go missing all the time. I'd take seeing a rare snake in a zoo any day of the week. Not left in a 10 gallon tank in the dark of course...but as long as they maintain its natural habitat...its probably safer there than in the wild.
BTW the 1st pic is one eating a gator. It died trying. And the 2nd is one eating a deer.

Being a HUGE retic fan i need to point out that in captivity, getting a 20 foot retic isn't overly easy. The last 25' retic was Bob Clarks "fluffy" and it died, i believe the current longest snake is either Prehistoric Pets "twinkie" or (cant remember the owners name as it recently changed, but Medusa. Steve D in the UK also owns one named "Rosie" all of these snakes are 23-24".

I HIGHLY doubt that "if you walk to far into the woods you have a decent chance of bumping into a 25' reticulated python" Florida has a small amount of Amathystine, Reticulated, Aff rocks and Annies in the swamps/forests most of which died in the last freeze. Your main problem is with the Burmese pythons which will probably be ongoing for a few years before its totally under control.

[stephanbakir]

. It died trying. And the 2nd is one eating a deer.

That first picture isnt a retic its a burm, and the second isnt a retic its an aff rock python.
The first snake was only about 13 feet long.
And the second snake was actualy found in INDIA at the Mulshi village, here is the story.
New Florida Super Snake Fears & Can Eat Deer Too, Jan. 2010 - Georgia Outdoor News Forum (http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=479001)

[KD35WIN.AS.ONE]

That first picture isnt a retic its a burm, and the second isnt a retic its an aff rock python.
The first snake was only about 13 feet long.
And the second snake was actualy found in INDIA at the Mulshi village, here is the story.
New Florida Super Snake Fears & Can Eat Deer Too, Jan. 2010 - Georgia Outdoor News Forum (http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=479001)


Whats a African Rock Python doing in some random village in India? I mean i know the pet trade is diverse but i didnt know the demand reached isolated villages in rural India lol.

[sickvenom]

The last 25' retic was Bob Clarks "fluffy" and it died, i believe the current longest snake is either Prehistoric Pets "twinkie"

twinkie was only 22' a year or so ago.

[stephanbakir]

Whats a African Rock Python doing in some random village in India? I mean i know the pet trade is diverse but i didnt know the demand reached isolated villages in rural India lol.
No idea lol, It does look like a rock though doesn't it?

[stephanbakir]

twinkie was only 22' a year or so ago.
Didn't he claim that it was 23 feet this year?

[sickvenom]

Didn't he claim that it was 23 feet this year?

not sure. i haven't talked to jay in a while.

[KD35WIN.AS.ONE]

No idea lol, It does look like a rock though doesn't it?

Yea im pretty sure it is one just by looking at it. Just no idea what its doing over there hahah.

[stephanbakir]

Yea im pretty sure it is one just by looking at it. Just no idea what its doing over there hahah.

Probably escaped from some private collection, doubt there was one in a remote village but maby from a closeish city or town?

[Stormy Night]

Lol. Ok I wasn't speaking literally. I was merely stating that in Florida they are snakes waaaaay bigger than a garter snake just wandering around. 25' was an exaggerated number I pulled from noplace. If I was being more specific I'd say that "on average, snakes that are free roaming in florida and eating everything from cats, to dogs, ducks, and raccoons are on average, wild caught size, around 8.5 feet and have been know to be upwards of 12 feet. There are record setters but they are few and far between. Tomato tomahto I'd still rather not get nailed by a wild snake that's bigger than I am, and I'd still rather see a rare well taken care of one in a zoo. As for the pictures, I typed 'huge snake in everglades' into Google and took the first two pictures posted. I wasn't being breed specific.

[sickvenom]

If I was being more specific I'd say that "on average, snakes that are free roaming in florida and eating everything from cats, to dogs, ducks,

this part is very true. too bad there aren't any desert species that get large enough to eat cats. there are so many feral cats around here it's crazy. if i had my way i'd just humanely dispose of them all.

[red ink]

this part is very true. too bad there aren't any desert species that get large enough to eat cats. there are so many feral cats around here it's crazy. if i had my way i'd just humanely dispose of them all.

Feral cats are public enemy number 2 here in Oz right after the cane toad...

Anyway...
A snake in the wild is worth two in a cage in my books....
No matter how rare the species is in a display i still get more excited about seeing a common species in the wild.

[Stormy Night]

I have black snakes that are pretty close to 4', maybe a little more all over my back yard. I have a pond full of toads aka 'all you can eat buffet'. I go out to my garden and they are shooting between my ankles and off into the woods. I've been digging and sitting down while doing it, and I've had a 4' snake just come up within a few inches from me and tounge my leg before moving back a hair and watching me plant Things. I see wild snakes every day. Ill never have a rat problem. But I still love to go to my local zoo (lowry park zoo) and walk their snake exhibit. Giant rattle snakes, black mambas, green vine snake's that are to much of a pain in the *** to keep myself (they eat lizards). Not to mention the Boas and pythons that are so big they need an entire room. All of them are very well taken care of and each snake has its own specific large habitat. They look extremely content having
been captive for a long long time. Most were taken in from ppl that owned them illegally. I live in an extremely tropical part of Florida I guess. We have iguanas outside and tegus ...snakes..alligators in swimming pools. Then I see dumb shyt kids out there trying to catch them. Tails are being broken, backs are being snapped...rednecks are taking shovels to decapitate, we have alligator trappers all over and the animals they catch are 'humainly euthanized' with a shot gun or a kill stick, their eyes and legs taped down...in the back of trucks. They don't release them or give them to zoos. Everyplace is full. So I personally think the ones That are behind glass tucked safely away from ******** hands are
luckier than the ones being annihilated in the wild.

[Stormy Night]

Wow...I can't say ********..?

[infernalis]

Wow...I can't say ********..?


No because some of our members have children with learning disabilities. ;)

It's an offensive word that will cause friction, so it's censored.

Even though I assume that you meant it in the context of someone who was born "normal" and then chose to be mentally deficient of their own accord later on in life.

I am surrounded by those very same "bodunks" here in central NY boonieville.

[sickvenom]

Wow...I can't say ********..?

no you can't. you seem to test the forum's censor filters on a regular basis. i'm not against foul language, but when it gets replaced with "*****" it sometimes makes it hard to follow what you're saying. best method is to self-censor with "!@#$%^&*."

[infernalis]

Or my personal favourite, alternate words that have the same definition. ;)

[stephanbakir]

The only problem with wild animals we have where im at are native species. We have some monster Snapping turtles across the street from my house and year round they put dogs/cats in the hospital with crazy looking leg wounds.