"Naval Rat" ? :S [Archive] - sSNAKESs : Reptile Forum

whoaxmary

05-02-11, 01:03 AM

So, today was supposed to be feeding day for my snakes. . . But when I went to get my bag of rats, ratpups, and hoppers outta the freezer I couldn't find the bag anywhere.... It's a big deep freeze that we keep pretty stocked (my parents would snap if I kept them in the fridge freezer) so I figured they must of just gotten shoved down near the bottom... While looking my foot hit something soft... I looked down and saw a bag of fries, something else, and my bag of rats! Some one went into the freezer pulled a bunch of stuff out and forgot to put it back! D: So, there goes a months worth of food for three snakes. x.x
I phoned my boyfriend and asked if he could grab me some before coming home from visiting his parents, and he ended up picking rats up from his sister for me... They're called "naval rats" I think, and I can't seem to find anything online about them. Just curious if anyone else uses these as feeders? I'm not planning on keeping the snakes on them, just 'till I have time to go get their normal meals.
In all honestly, I guess I'm mostly worried my ball python will get used to the different food and not want to go back onto her rat pups.
Opinions?

NennaMeerkat

05-02-11, 01:06 AM

Can I see a pic of them? I have never heard of the breed before and you may be misinformed on what they were called.

whoaxmary

05-02-11, 01:06 AM

Just a side note- my parents have been on me for the past week saying I haven't been cleaning my kitty litters or that my puppy must of been pooping somewhere because the room we have the deep freeze in (I also keep my litter boxes back there) has STUNK.
I tried telling them I had been cleaning up after my pets as always, and maybe the cats had killed a mouse and left it somewhere... I was almost right. x.x

whoaxmary

05-02-11, 01:07 AM

Don't have them yet, boyfriend will be home tommorow and I will post a picture before feeding them

NennaMeerkat

05-02-11, 01:09 AM

Okay as soon as you can post a picture I will be able to help you out. Might be some sort of slang that not everyone is familiar with.

whoaxmary

05-02-11, 01:11 AM

Maybe - that's what I was wondering when I couldn't find anything online.
I'll make sure to post a picture as soon as he gets home with them tommorow, didn't even think of that or I would of just waited until tommorow to start this thread. ;p

NennaMeerkat

05-02-11, 01:17 AM

Ha ha that is okay! I will try to be on tomorrow to see the pictures so you can hopefully feed your snakes as soon as possible.

Have you considered buying a small personal freezer for your frozen food items for your snakes? I think they make mini-freezers.

whoaxmary

05-02-11, 01:22 AM

Yes I have~ I'm trying to decide on if I should get one of those, or just start breeding. I have found a few people who have offered me their help, but I would have to wait until I move out in September, because again, the parents have their limits on what they can handle, not to mention I don't want to have to worry about moving a colony of rats four hours away, it will be hard enough to move the reptiles and other pets themselves... So maybe I will just go for the mini freezer... Must say I was not to happy to find like 50$ worth of rotting rats on the floor. x.x It was even annoying when my parents didn't seem to think it was any sort of inconvience. x.x "Bubbha always leaves birds and mice on the outside steps in the morning...couldn't you just feed those, wouldn't they be freash enough?" Oooooh, dad. <3

mistersprinkles

05-02-11, 03:29 AM

Natal rats. Young rats :). Naval rats would be rats that are deployed on tiny remote control boats to secure the interests of the puddle near the hole near the trash can on the corner. :).

TeaNinja

05-02-11, 03:31 AM

NennaMeerkat

05-02-11, 09:46 AM

i was surprised how easy breeding rats is. the hardest part for me is having to kill them for freezing :x
i spend a decent amount of money for rat food, but i've been slowly starting to stockpile my own f/t rats. so i'm sure it will even out or be more cost productive then buying rats. especially since a big rat that nigma eats is over 10$, and the one's the BP eats are probably like $5. i'm sure that would add up to more then i pay for rat food.
i bet i pay like 20$ a month for rat food.

Hey Tea might I help you with a cheaper option than the rat food...which is much more expensive? You only need 3 things and all 3 things you can buy in bulk and save money.

1. Kitten food
~ You can buy the cheapest brand of kitten food you can find in a 20-40 lb bag. It has everything a rat really needs to be healthy in it.

2. Wild Bird Seed
~ Buy any wild bird see that has a majority of sunflower seeds and other whole seeds in it. Try and stay away from the ones that have bits of corn in it, but a little of the corn compared to the whole seed is okay.

3. Whole Grain Pasta
~ You can pick up large boxes of whole grain pasta from any grocery store. Find the largest cheapest box you can find. Feed it to the rats as is straight from the box.

sickvenom

05-02-11, 10:08 AM

Hey Tea might I help you with a cheaper option than the rat food...which is much more expensive? You only need 3 things and all 3 things you can buy in bulk and save money.

1. Kitten food
~ You can buy the cheapest brand of kitten food you can find in a 20-40 lb bag. It has everything a rat really needs to be healthy in it.

2. Wild Bird Seed
~ Buy any wild bird see that has a majority of sunflower seeds and other whole seeds in it. Try and stay away from the ones that have bits of corn in it, but a little of the corn compared to the whole seed is okay.

3. Whole Grain Pasta
~ You can pick up large boxes of whole grain pasta from any grocery store. Find the largest cheapest box you can find. Feed it to the rats as is straight from the box.

i personally would never feed feeders this stuff. a feeder is only as good as its diet. feeder rodents need a specialized diet.

NennaMeerkat

05-02-11, 10:32 AM

i personally would never feed feeders this stuff. a feeder is only as good as its diet. feeder rodents need a specialized diet.

This is the diet I have gotten from people who own and breed rats for pets. Of course there is a little more to it such as fresh veggies and a bit of fruit/nuts. However that is the backbone of what many people, well known breeders, feed their rats.

Pet Rat Information Sheet - all you need for happy healthy pet rats (http://www.quite.co.uk/rats/#Food)
Fact Sheet - Ratz Food (http://www.ratzfood.com.au/?page=123)
Pet Rats Information, Care and Training Resource | FancyPetRats.com (http://www.fancypetrats.com/pet-rats-best-food-diet.php)
Feeder Rat Care - Reptile Forums | Herp Center (http://www.herpcenter.com/feeders/24845-feeder-rat-care.html)

And I will make one change to my above original statement that I did not before say. Kitten food ONLY for young rats then switch to dog food.

I am curious though as to what you feed your own rats?

Jay

05-02-11, 10:44 AM

Simple rats for pets vs rats for food should be different.

NennaMeerkat

05-02-11, 10:48 AM

Simple rats for pets vs rats for food should be different.

Now I am curious as to what the difference should be/is Every rat has the same nutritional needs no matter what their "fate" is. Sure 24-48 hours before they are frozen/fed you feed them something different but for day to day living they have their nutritional needs right?

totheend

05-02-11, 12:20 PM

Natal rats as in African soft furred rats. Not the same as a regular rat at all.

NennaMeerkat

05-02-11, 12:22 PM

Oh goodness that thing is cute totheend! But can they be used as temporary food?

totheend

05-02-11, 12:24 PM

Oh goodness that thing is cute totheend! But can they be used as temporary food?

People use them all the time as food. Some people think that snakes such as Ball Pythons will imprint on them but I have yet to see that with my animals. But I do believe the main purpose of the ASF is food.....

sickvenom

05-02-11, 01:10 PM

Now I am curious as to what the difference should be/is Every rat has the same nutritional needs no matter what their "fate" is. Sure 24-48 hours before they are frozen/fed you feed them something different but for day to day living they have their nutritional needs right?

Pet rats aren't always fed the same diet as feeders.

Jay

05-02-11, 01:12 PM

I feed ALL my Gopher samkes these guys.

ilovemypets1988

05-02-11, 01:34 PM

NennaMeerkat

05-02-11, 02:02 PM

basic rat needs (food wise):

fibre, vitamins, calcium and thas it.
most cat food or dog food has these in high levels due to the fact that the intended animal and it doesnt matter whether or not they are feeder rats or pet rats

This is why I say that dry dog food can easily make up a large part of any rat's diet. They are omnivores by nature. As long as "corn" isn't the first ingredient in the dog food (which is why I buy cat food for my 2 girls) then you are good to go. Heck compare the amount of crude fat, protein, grain, ect. that is contained in the dog food vs. those expensive rat blocks and such.

I still haven't heard what people feed their feeder rats vs. pet rats. And I can't find anything online that is giving me much of anything.

mykee

05-02-11, 02:04 PM

"Natal rats. Young rats "
Not natal-young, Natal; as in African Soft Furred Rats, or ASF's, AKA Natals.

"Heck compare the amount of crude fat, protein, grain, ect. that is contained in the dog food vs. those expensive rat blocks and such."
Yeah, they are NOTHING alike.
Would you feed your dog cat food? Then why feed your rats dog food?
IMO, those who feed their rats anything but rodent chow (there are plenty of brands out there) are making excuses to save a few bucks.
I personally would never and have never bought my feeders from someone who feeds their rats dog food, cat food, llama food, alligator food, tortoise food, etc.
Rats eat rat food. It's made for them, formulated for them, and provides the proper nutrition they need to be healthy, strong breeders and most of all, nutritious to my snakes.

I know I'm going off on a tangent here, but I had a friend (who is no longer in the biz) who bred rats and mice for pet stores to sell as feeders. They fed their rats and mice Mainstay (you know, that cheap-crap dog food they sell at Wal-Mart).
I feed Mazuri 6F.
Since I'm OCD, I suggested a scientific experiment of sorts for the sake of curiosity:
We had the same size racks (they used my design to build their racks) so this would be easy to duplicate.
We each used four colonies of 1.3 breeder rats and continued to fill their hoppers until one complete bag of food was completely empty.
Mainstay ($11 a bag) was gone in 12 days: 5.8 cents/day/rat
Mazuri ($23 at the time, $29 now) was gone in 22 days: 6.5 cents/day/rat (then) 8.3 cents/day/rat (now)

I won't even get into the weight difference between the two groups of 10 day old hoppers, 30 old small adults, and 90 day old full-sized adults OR the litter size difference between the two groups either.

ilovemypets1988

05-02-11, 02:10 PM

This is why I say that dry dog food can easily make up a large part of any rat's diet. They are omnivores by nature. As long as "corn" isn't the first ingredient in the dog food (which is why I buy cat food for my 2 girls) then you are good to go. Heck compare the amount of crude fat, protein, grain, ect. that is contained in the dog food vs. those expensive rat blocks and such.

I still haven't heard what people feed their feeder rats vs. pet rats. And I can't find anything online that is giving me much of anything.

i very much doubt that you will find anything as until the rats become feeders, they are pets and therefore there is no difference to what you feed them

NennaMeerkat

05-02-11, 02:16 PM

i very much doubt that you will find anything as until the rats become feeders, they are pets and therefore there is no difference to what you feed them

You are right about that. I should ask my guy I get my pinkies from what he feeds all his rats. He sells live and frozen rats and mice of all sizes. I am sure he "gut loads" them like you do crickets before shipping them or freezing them.

However as I own two rats, have rescued many rats in the past, and owned rats in the past I see no reason why you can't feed them 1. wild bird seed 2. uncooked whole wheat pasta 3. dog/cat food As a whole mixed together all their basic needs as rats are met. And yes they do need about 10% of their diet to be protein which can be found in the dog/cat food. To many fruits/veggies will give them the runs and just supplying them grain will lead to other health concerns.

ilovemypets1988

05-02-11, 02:24 PM

rice would be good to form part of there diet too, thas what my dad feeds his prized german shepards as they have the best condition that ive ever seen

ilovemypets1988

05-02-11, 02:29 PM

also another thing to consider aswel is, do they have a choice of what to eat in the wild NO, do snakes still eat them and are perfectly healthy YES, so in reality it really doesnt matter

mykee

05-02-11, 02:32 PM

LOL!!!
Rats (as we know them) are RARELY eaten in the "wild".
Rats are a 'substitute food' that we feed our snakes because we do not have access to their true diet.

NennaMeerkat

05-02-11, 02:33 PM

rice would be good to form part of there diet too, thas what my dad feeds his prized german shepards as they have the best condition that ive ever seen

There are quite a few dog foods that have rice in them. As well as cat foods.

Would you feed your dog cat food? Then why feed your rats dog food?

It is perfectly fine for dogs to eat cat food. Have had more than one dog become cat food thieves in the past. Would eat the durn cat's food but not their own.

Also I am NOT saying that dog food should be the ONLY thing the rat eats. I also mentioned wild bird feed and whole wheat pasta as other staples. I have read several articles written by different people and while many things vary they do say you can feed your rat dog food supplemented with other things.

ilovemypets1988

05-02-11, 02:35 PM

LOL!!!
Rats (as we know them) are RARELY eaten in the "wild".
Rats are a 'substitute food' that we feed our snakes because we do not have access to their true diet.

so your telling me that young burmese pythons do not eat rats in the florida everglades becos its a proven fact that they do

mykee

05-02-11, 02:38 PM

ilovemypets1988

05-02-11, 02:43 PM

Maybe. Mostly Nutria though and the occasional yappy little inbred toy breed dog (it's a start).
Burmese pythons are not indigenous to Florida either.
They eat what they can.
Just like in our care.
Thank you, you made my point FOR me.

yh i do know this thank you, i also do know that there are "python hunters" trying to erradicate the problem and i also know that they have found in 90% of the burms they have caught has rats in there guts, i may not live in america but i do know whats going on when it coms to certain situations, also the species "rat snake" aint called that for nothing, plus corn snakes natural diet is mice and small rats so i have only proved you wrong!

mykee

05-02-11, 02:45 PM

You missed my point and I choose not to reiterate it.

BTW, rat snakes eat rodents and birds, not necesarily rats.
Even though corn snakes ARE rat snakes, I heard they love to eat corn too. (kidding, not sure if you got that or not)...(also, bats, birds, and lizards).

NennaMeerkat

05-02-11, 02:49 PM

Black Rat Snake - Black Rat Snake Fact Sheet - National Zoo| FONZ (http://nationalzoo.si.edu/Animals/ReptilesAmphibians/Facts/FactSheets/Blackratsnake.cfm)
"Diet in the Wild
Rat snakes are primarily known as rodent eaters, however other food preferences do exist. As juveniles, rat snakes eat small lizards, baby mice, and an occasional small frog. Adult rat snakes have a diet mainly consisting of mice and rats, but also include chipmunks, moles, and other small rodents. Adults also eat bird eggs and young. Rat snakes kill their prey by constriction. "

Texas Rat Snake - Texas Rat Snake (http://www.houstonherp.com/TxRat.html)
"As the name implies, the Texas Rat Snake's primary diet is mice and rats, causing them to be commonly seen in any place inhabited by rodents - including human homes."

Corn Snake - Corn Snake - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corn_Snake)
"Corn Snakes have a diet primarily consisting of rodents, mostly mice and rats."

Ball Python - Python regius - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_python)
"In the wild, the diet consists mostly of small mammals, such as African soft-furred rats, shrews and striped mice."

Carpet Python - Carpet Pythons (http://www.fortunecity.com/uproar/amused/376/morelia.htm)
"They possess several modifications which allow them to successfully stalk, capture, and subdue their prey (mice, rats, birds, possums, marsupials etc)."

To say snakes in the wild do not eat rats is just silly.

And that is the last I will post in this thread...we have gotten WAY off course and are on something irrelevant to the original purpose of the thread.

mykee

05-02-11, 02:57 PM

First, the losely termed "rodents" in all of these quotes you so studiously provided, are likely not European hooded rats (which is the common rat in the pet trade in North America). These are DOMESTICATED rats, not wild rats.
Bred in North America for the last two hundred years for the pet trade. They are also not indigenous.

As for your above post, I can really only offer tons of experience and knowledge about ball pythons 'cause that's my thing.
You can't be more wrong.
Ball pythons DO NOT eat African Soft Furred Rats.
Wikipedia (the preeminent source of knowledge for the lazy and feebleminded) and you, for quoting them, are wrong. Gasp!!! Natals, or African Soft Furred Rats, despite their name, are indigenous to Bangladesh, India, Sri Lanka, and Nepal. Ball pythons are indigenous to West Africa.

To save you from having to go back to Wikipedia; they are thousands of miles apart.

Jay

05-02-11, 03:00 PM

By that theory should i be feeding my gopher snake gophers?

mykee

05-02-11, 03:04 PM

Yup. And your ball pythons tennis balls.

sassy_snake_lady

05-02-11, 03:06 PM

By that theory should i be feeding my gopher snake gophers?

Maybe and what should I feed my King Snake? :rolleyes:

sickvenom

05-02-11, 03:08 PM

What should I feed my weiner dog?

mykee

05-02-11, 03:11 PM

"What should I feed my weiner dog? "
You know the answer to that one...

I'm disheartened that quite possibly, we are now in a society that would rather be "Wiki-fied" than knowledgeable or intelligent.

TeaNinja

05-02-11, 03:14 PM

you feed it hot dogs until it explodes, duh.

*gained this knowledge from wikipedia*

lol xD

mykee

05-02-11, 03:14 PM

Sassy:

http://www.reptilescanada.com/gallery/data/500/BK.jpg

sassy_snake_lady

05-02-11, 03:17 PM

Sassy:

http://www.reptilescanada.com/gallery/data/500/BK.jpg

Hahaha, brilliant! :yes:

Jay

05-02-11, 03:29 PM

how am i going to feed my taiwan beauty

TeaNinja

05-02-11, 03:31 PM

DUH, you feed it beautiful taiwanese women.

lol

Lankyrob

05-02-11, 03:47 PM

Gonna go garden centre tomorrow and buy some evergreens for my gtp :rolleyes: thankfully i have rugs available for my jcp ;), now what to feed my Super Dwarf Retic............. :)

mykee

05-02-11, 09:05 PM

"thankfully i have rugs available for my jcp "
Hmm, I must be a JCP...

Jay

05-02-11, 10:02 PM

Haahaha ^ Awesome

whoaxmary

05-03-11, 03:26 PM

lol, this board gave me some 'lol's while catching up. I took a picture, but can't get it to upload onto my computer. I got a few the size just bigger than rat pups, and a few 'hoppers'. Going to give one of those to my corn , two of the larger ones to my pine, and the smallest of the larger ones to my ball python. . I was a bit concerned about her becoming imprinted on them, but she's a good eater so I think I'll be fine. This is the only meal she'll have of them before I go pick up the normal meals.
I know I really should be feeing them corn and tennies balls, and pine trees, but I just don't have acsess!

whoaxmary

05-03-11, 03:51 PM

Oh, just after that the camera worked~

http://i1177.photobucket.com/albums/x354/whoaxmary/006-1.jpg

If these are 'Natal Rats' maybe Wayne could retitle this thread appropriately, if he see;s this, so anyone else not sure what they are can find it if they search the threads?

stephanbakir

05-03-11, 04:59 PM

Are the flecks on the larger ones fur?

whoaxmary

05-04-11, 08:19 AM

It's aspen, or whatever they were living on. When Amy got them for me they were live and I guess she frooze them herself before packing them up for her brother to drive home with. A quick shake with the tongs and it all fell off.

mistersprinkles

05-04-11, 09:35 AM

You shouldn't be feeding rats anything out of the ordinary for snake food. Just before you kill them you can feed them stuff that'd be beneficial to the snake obviously.. whatever that may be.

Something else that never seems to occur to people is that you could inject a vitamin or nutrient booster of your own concoction using a syringe under the skin on a prekilled rat before feeding.

sickvenom

05-04-11, 09:58 AM

Something else that never seems to occur to people is that you could inject a vitamin or nutrient booster of your own concoction using a syringe under the skin on a prekilled rat before feeding.

what kind of 'booster' would you recommend? and how do you know it will be properly absorbed by the subject?

Damion930

05-04-11, 10:06 AM

Let's not forget that "dog food " and " cat food" is purdy general and its the ingredients that matter.

stephanbakir

05-04-11, 10:08 AM

Allot of people get lab grade mouse/rat food, the animals might not grow faster but they grow lean and healthy

Stormy Night

05-04-11, 09:48 PM

I used to work in a rat farm warehouse. My boss bred a few different kinds of rodents for pet stores and he had snakes aswell. I was told that African soft furred rats are what ball pythons prefer in the wild. They hunt them down. He also fed his rats those little rat food bricks and had me dump dog food in their racks once a week because he considered it a treat. He said that dog food in serious moderation is ok but anything more causes tumors. We also did the rat food test on 4 rats. Two had nothing but rodent block and two had dog food. Coincidence or not the dog food rats in 3 months had to be wacked because of tumors. He was also under the impression that the high levels of ...I can't remember what..caused them to become aggressive and fight and such.
Ive had rats as pets aswell and I pretty much fed them everything I eat. I mostly eat veggies. I'd mix rodent block, an assortment of fruits and veggies, granola cereal, scrambled eggs, dry wheat noodles, sunflower seeds, nuts, crackers and peanut butter...it changed constantly. My guys were chunky, healthy and lived a really long time.

whoaxmary

05-04-11, 11:28 PM

I was told that African soft furred rats are what ball pythons prefer in the wild.

Yupp, Blue (Bp) swallowed it right up, same with my corn.
Only one that didn't eat was Richard, which is odd because he is a PIG. I figured he just isn't hungry yet.

sickvenom

05-04-11, 11:36 PM

Ive had rats as pets aswell and I pretty much fed them everything I eat. I mostly eat veggies.

did you feed them blood? i heard you vampires like blood.

Stormy Night

05-05-11, 06:30 AM

Lol! I tried. They just wouldn't drink it. I mean...I killed Peter to feed Paul so its not like it wasn't fresh. They were just being picky....hence why I don't have rats anymore. I ate them! Muwhahaha

sickvenom

05-05-11, 08:42 AM

mykee

05-05-11, 10:36 AM

"I was told that African soft furred rats are what ball pythons prefer in the wild. They hunt them down. "

For the second time in this thread: Wrong!

Ball pythons DO NOT eat African Soft Furred Rats in the wild.
Natals (AKA African Soft Furred Rats) despite their name, are indigenous to Bangladesh, India, Sri Lanka, and Nepal. Ball pythons are indigenous to West Africa.
They are THOUSANDS of miles apart.
Ball pythons eat jerboas in the wild, not ASF's.

sickvenom

05-05-11, 10:46 AM

For the second time in this thread: Wrong!

Ball pythons DO NOT eat African Soft Furred Rats in the wild.
Natals (AKA African Soft Furred Rats) despite their name, are indigenous to Bangladesh, India, Sri Lanka, and Nepal. Ball pythons are indigenous to West Africa.
They are THOUSANDS of miles apart.
Ball pythons eat jerboas in the wild, not ASF's.

What is thr current price for a red-tailed jerboa?

serpentshideawa

05-05-11, 11:51 AM

Oh about a million dollars lol

Stormy Night

05-05-11, 12:01 PM

Yea. They eat gerbils. I'm recalling something vague about them smelling close to the same. Haven't sniffed either in comparison to one another so I can't honestly say. But for a picky ball That wont eat rats or mice gerbils are recommended. And at 6+$ a pop here, ppl lean towards the 2$ ASF rat. Its supposedly the next best thing. I'm under the impression food in the mouth end is a good thing. I'm not supper picky on what fuzzy critter is being sacrificed to the greater good as long as they are eaten.

mykee

05-05-11, 01:48 PM

....not very "cost effective" feeding a $2 ASF when you need to feed 5 of them to your hungry 3000g female ball python weekly.

Personally, having raised a couple of ball pythons over a couple of years, i have NEVER had an issue getting a ball python to eat what I want it to eat.

Stormy Night

05-05-11, 02:13 PM

Neither have I. When I adopted 26 of them at once half would "only eat live so don't even try anything else!" And it took a couple month's but all of mine are converted to FT. I've never had a reason to try anything but rats or mice. Playing the waiting game always worked for me. Eventually. They WILL eat.

mykee

05-05-11, 02:54 PM

Amen Sister!!!

paulholcomb

05-29-11, 10:01 PM

You can't be more wrong.
Ball pythons DO NOT eat African Soft Furred Rats.
Wikipedia (the preeminent source of knowledge for the lazy and feebleminded) and you, for quoting them, are wrong. Gasp!!! Natals, or African Soft Furred Rats, despite their name, are indigenous to Bangladesh, India, Sri Lanka, and Nepal. Ball pythons are indigenous to West Africa.

To save you from having to go back to Wikipedia; they are thousands of miles apart.

You are so wrong! Quote me your source please?

paulholcomb

05-29-11, 10:02 PM

stephanbakir

05-29-11, 10:18 PM

you're "cocky" and also misinformed!! You shouldn't even open your mouth about this until you can prove your source!

You do realise that mykee is a fantastic BP breeder who knows more about them then pretty much anyone on this forum. Regarding ASF's he is 100% correct. I'll work on finding a source but the simple fact that they are 1000s of miles apart should speak for itself.:confused: