Me venting!! (market price fluctuations)

[Jendee]

So on alot of the big breeder forums I go to they are having these arguements about market price and value going down so much. ie, said morph was bought for 5k then 4 yrs later for $400. They actually have the nerve to get mad at people for pricing there animals this low and to get mad at people who buy animals this low!! Give me a break people!! everything losses value over time unless its a CD at the bank lmao. If you are trying to "get rich" breeding snakes then your a moron!! it wont happen infact you will be lucky to cover costs of feeding and bills of taking care of said snakes!!
Then what really erks me is these people get mad and aleinate people who say they want to make money. How they just do it for the love of boas or said species, yet there are countless everyday threads about prices..come on people who are you kidding who cares!!!

I do it because its fun and I love it, if this means I gave away my boas for free because they werent worth anything Id still do it because I enjoy it. Making a few bucks no matter how the pricing changes is literally just a perk, that you shouldnt rely on!!

Now if I said this on said forums Id be exiled :unibrow:

which is why I love this place sooo much :D

[dshin963]

lol I know you are on a rant about prices but I have a question :P
You breed boas right? I was thinking of picking one up in a year or two but I want to buy from a breeder from this forum... who knows why maybe I love you guys :)

[stephanbakir]

Everyone who cares about the money for whatever reason rants those who love it would do it for free.
That being said if i did buy a boa I'd buy one of yours in exchange for a hug :)

[dshin963]

Everyone who cares about the money for whatever reason rants those who love it would do it for free.
That being said if i did buy a boa I'd buy one of yours in exchange for a hug :)
I will hug twice as fiercely :D

[infernalis]

Now that's what I like, shrugs to hugs in only 3 posts..

[stephanbakir]

Don't you wish it was all like this :)

I wright this while staring at your avatar eating a poutine :)

[mykee]

"If you are trying to "get rich" breeding snakes then your a moron!! it wont happen infact you will be lucky to cover costs of feeding and bills of taking care of said snakes!!"
Wrong .
Not wrong enough to be exiled though...
You are SO wrong I can't even begin to tell you how wrong.
I LOVE what I do, don't get me wrong, but it's not just about the love.

Without delving too deep, I will use this one morph and two seasons with it as an example:

2002: I bought a male spider for $8000.
2003: I produced seven clutches (44 eggs) from that male bred to a bunch of normal females.
In 2003, spiders were selling for $5500. I produced 27.

2004: Same male gave me eight clutches (53 eggs) bred to another bunch of normal females and a few pastels.
In 2004, spiders were selling for $4000. I produced 31 spiders and spider crosses (bumblebees).

That's two seasons with one male.

Like any business (or hobby turned bsuiness for that matter) the more time, effort, money (and luck) you put into it, the more you'll get out of it.
This year, I will cover all my expenses for the year:
Feeders; food, bedding, water.
Snakes: electricity, water, food, time etc.
With the first 5 eggs I produce (I can only say that because I now exactly what they'll be).
I hoping for 175-225 eggs.
Keep in mind, I'm small time for what I do.
Close to half of the breeders I know out there are doing this on a larger scale than I am.

[infernalis]

I agree with Mykee on that.

I can't boast price tags like those, but here is some simple math.

I purchased 2 hets (Thamnophis radix) that are called "triple het" possessing possible Anery & Albino. The triple het comes from the likelihood of Anery, Albino & Snow.

They were $40 each, I raised them for two years before the first lockup, total cost of feeding them, under $100 in food for both over 2 years time.

So that's $140 invested into two snakes that occupy 24 inches of space on the floor.

The pairing produced 12 healthy babies, 2 Albinos, 2 Anery and one snow plus a handful of hets for future breeding stock. the other dozen stillborns were a total loss..

now each of those morph babies sell for an average of $100 each +

so in one small space, my $140 produced $500+ in snakes.

Not exactly wall street, but that's $360 to buy more snakes, feed, or whatever.

I used the lowest end example I can.

Consider that one Thamnophis female can drop up to 30 babies, some valued at several hundred dollars each, it's not rocket science that it will make money.

[Jay]

bhb makes a fair chunk

[red ink]

Yep... Small time here as well (hobby breeder off loading excess but...)

One pair of Strophurus taenicauda = $350
5 pairs hatched and sexed sell for $350 each = 1750
cost of enclosures for adults + hatchling racks + wiring = 350 (i make my own stuff so its just the electrics)
1750 - 350 (original breeding pair ) - 350 (the enclosures) = 1050 (nice little road trip holiday with the wife sorted)

*this is just what I bred this year (could not be bothered this year and their just geckos)
I also have other species geckos at home that I will breed next year that will pay for next years holiday.

[Jendee]

Well I dont know about other speciess' markets. I guess I was speaking about boas: )I know the ball python market is booming!!! Alot of people in the boa world have sold out and have gone completey into bp's because of it lol They are simply complaining about the fact that once they bought an animal for said amount they are no longer selling for that price. mykee arent spiders now being sold for like 400 far cry from what you orginally paid for back in 02 right?? well this seems to happen faster in the boa world 3 yrs ago motley's were 2-3k and now they are 300 lol
But Im sooo tired of hearing about it, thats all these "big timers" talk about!! I wish they would give it a rest and enjoy their animals, for the reason that got them into it in the first place, because they are beautiful!!

btw I love hugs!! When I met people I hug them it creeps some people out, so now I warn them as Im going in lol "Im hugging you" lol

[stephanbakir]

Rofl, i never understood why people disliked hugs.

[Lankyrob]

Nothing worse than two blokes hugging when one has gone for a handshake.............. ;)

Must admit tho i am also a hugger - tho people dont seem to know how to hug someone in a wheelchair!

[infernalis]

Just lean down and go for it mate.

On topic, It's even crazier in my tiny niche' market.

2 years ago when the very first Albino flame appeared, they were $700, they are now $200.. Simply because one breeder only had them, 2 years to reach maturity & blam all the people who bought pairs are now selling them.

supply and demand.

No offense to any breeders, but I do plan on getting a RTB, but I want to get a rehome or adopt one from a shelter, There are far too many abandoned animals getting euthanized, and if I can offer one a decent life, that's the way I wish to go.

[sickvenom]

But Im sooo tired of hearing about it, thats all these "big timers" talk about!! I wish they would give it a rest and enjoy their animals, for the reason that got them into it in the first place, because they are beautiful!

As already stated, some of these breeders make a living at this. So I can understand their frustrations. But complaining about it isn't going to change the market. They need to uphold their reputations as breeders and everything will be just fine. I'd gladly pay a little extra for a high quality specimen from a reputable breeder, versus some shady person on craigslist.

Hugs not drugs.

[presspirate]

What a loving bunch we all are! I'm not averse to a manly hug from time to time just so long as it doesn't go over a few seconds. For the record, there should be drink involved and a lot of manly back pounding. In the midst of some bawdy drinking songs. :crazy2:

[Lankyrob]

No back pounding for me please!! ;)

[presspirate]

No back pounding for me please!! ;)
That's fine Rob as long as you can sing! Jen, I am sure I speak for everyone here when I say you can hug me without warning. Wayne, if you adopt a rtb you won't regret it. I adopted mine and he is just a puppy dog. Content to sit in his cage, or hang out on you whenever.

As for the breeding issue, I can certainly see where if you spend a large amount of money to purchase a breeding pair you'd like to see the price remain the same. The problem is, so does everyone else who spends the same amount of money. The reality is, as I see it. The economy sucks, and as the market is flooded with designer morphs, the price will go down . IMO in the end, it is the snakes that will suffer. I'd pose a question to the larger breeders. What happens to your snakes that don't sell? I'm being curious, not judgmental.

[Jendee]

Ive thought that to!! Ive seen people produe 25-40 litters of boas at an average of 40 babies each, what the hell do they do with all the normals and possible hets/or whets that don't sell???
I could care less about the market, I just think this hobby is awesome!!! :)

[sickvenom]

They probably wholesale them to a distributor.

[mykee]

"Ive thought that to!! Ive seen people produe 25-40 litters of boas at an average of 40 babies each, what the hell do they do with all the normals and possible hets/or whets that don't sell??? "
Seriously?
Wholesale or freezer.
Sad but true.
I give away all my normals with other animals purchased.

[presspirate]

Seriously?
Wholesale or freezer.
Sad but true.
I give away all my normals with other animals purchased.
Like a 2 for one deal? What I mean is, a normal BP is like what, a $15 snake? (US) Obviously, it is not worth the cost to you as a breeder to raise them, feed them, etc. However, you can produce morphs with a morph and a normal, or a het and a normal, so do you fully expect to not make money on any hets or normals?

[Jendee]

Seriously?
Wholesale or freezer.
Sad but true.
I give away all my normals with other animals purchased.

Thats an awesome Idea!! Im sooo using that lol

the giving away with purchase thing not the freezer thing lol

now a days in the boa world, people don't want to waste time with possible hets, hets or normals...unless your smarter then the rest and produce amazing whets and normals ;) ie..me lol so its really hard to sell them, the new group of reptile keepers are the best bet for any normals or hets. So Im always looking to bring new people to the reptile world :D

[mistersprinkles]

So on alot of the big breeder forums I go to they are having these arguements about market price and value going down so much. ie, said morph was bought for 5k then 4 yrs later for $400. They actually have the nerve to get mad at people for pricing there animals this low and to get mad at people who buy animals this low!! Give me a break people!! everything losses value over time unless its a CD at the bank lmao. If you are trying to "get rich" breeding snakes then your a moron!! it wont happen infact you will be lucky to cover costs of feeding and bills of taking care of said snakes!!

Now. When you could sell certain morphs for $18,000, and you were one of two people in your country that had them, you could cover costs on the snakes, as well as a nice new boat. And a car. Maybe a new porch.

When I was like six, I remember a Burmese albino went for $15,000> :yes:

You can get an albino burmese for the same price as a normal morph, or very little more now. I'd be pretty upset. It's not right to get angry about it- but if these are people who bought into breeding, say, high yellow albino balls, when they were like six thousand dollars, and now those animals sell for maybe five or six hundred for a really nice animal and three or four for an average one, I imagine they'd be quite frustrated.

You reptile breeders need to form a coalition and find a way to keep your prices insane like parrot breeders do. An African grey cost you $2,000 ten years ago. It costs $2,000 now, and it'll be $2,500 in another ten. You need to get in on that.

[infernalis]

Since it would violate certain trusts, I cannot disclose who and where, But I know of several breeders who "cull" normals, runts and non feeders.

I always accept non feeders and then work with them, often with great results.

Never knew just how many babies refused to eat, until the boxes started showing up on my doorstep.

[stephanbakir]

Free snakes :) Truly an addicts wet dreams

[Jendee]

Free snakes :) Truly an addicts wet dreams


lol soo true!!

[mykee]

What I mean by "giving away a free normal" with a purchase is this: Because I don't generally do this for fame and fortune or to brag about a huge collection, (I don't even do Shows) I prefer to get rid of the animals I don't intend to keep or sell as quickly as possible; because of my O.C.D. I prefer to be neat, tidy and have everything in order.
200 babies doesn't allow for that.
Would I rather have a free bin?; one less animal to water, clean, feed, and heat or $25 (wholesale price for a normal baby ball python)?
I would rather have the free bin.
Since I only now have two normals in my collection (my two favorites), with all others being at the very least double and triple genes, I prefer not to tax the already super-saturated world of normal ball pythons.
Normals are given as freebies with the first "X" number of morphs I sell that season. I usually only have 25 or so, so the first 25 customers get a free normal if they want it.
If a high end morph is sold, I'll offer more than one free normal.
Everyone wins.

[infernalis]

Funny thing Mykee, most of my favourite "pet" snakes are the plain old "normals"

I tend to handle my normals and admire the morphs through the glass.

People sometime don't understand that my big red flame girl is actually a "normal" because bright red Garter snakes are really common in Canada, it is not a genetic "mutation" but rather a locality specific colouration.

My Albino / Anery / Snow / Axanthic / Erythristic animals get left alone except for maintenance and feeding or photo shoots.

[stephanbakir]

Have you owned any Red bellied grass snakes, ring necks or pine snakes?
All have really cool character quirks!

[mistersprinkles]

Have you owned any Red bellied grass snakes, ring necks or pine snakes?
All have really cool character quirks!

All three of those have an attitude problem IMO. The red belly is ok. Given that the back of the animal is the same and you never see the belly I'd rather have a calm, predictable dekay's snake.