Constipation?

[Malus]

I need some advice here. We have had our ball python for about a month or two an every time it digests a mouse, the mouse gets stuck on the way out. The mouse isn't fully digested an it looks like a fleshy pink mound coming out of the bum of my snake. Since we have had him he has only had about 5 regular poops (brown an white). I called the pet store I bought him from and they said it was just constipation but I'm not sure how much they even know since it is just a pet store. Is this normal and what can I do to help my little fella out?

[mykee]

If your ball python is not digestng it's food properly, you have one of two issues:
1. Internal parasites; in this case, get your snake to a vet ASAP. If you bought him form a pet store, this is around the time that you will see African bush babies that were shipped from Africa 1000 to an unventilated oil drum directly to YOUR nearest pet store.
Flagyl or Paracur will likely be your route.
Get a fecal done: roughly $25.
2. Your temps are wrong. i.e. your hot spot isn't hot enough. Ball pythons need heat to properly digest their meals, if you are not providing a warm enough spot, constipation and a whole slew of additional issues will follow.

What is your husbandry like?
How old is your ball, etc.
Spill it....

[infernalis]

Partially digested is not constipation.. no matter what the pet store said.

Something is internally very wrong with your snake, food should not pass through so fast it comes out undigested.

I vote for seeing a vet ASAP....

[marvelfreak]

Partially digested is not constipation.. no matter what the pet store said.

Something is internally very wrong with your snake, food should not pass through so fast it comes out undigested.

I vote for seeing a vet ASAP....
I am with them both vet ASAP and please keep us inform on how your snake does.

[infernalis]

Are you absolutely sure that it's not regurgitating?? (Throwing up)

It seems a lot more likely that you are describing a mouse that has been thrown up rather than passed all the way through.

[Lankyrob]

That was my thought wayne, have you actually see the mouse "come out"?

[mykee]

Didn't even think of that, good call Wayne!

[Malus]

this is the families first snake and we have done a lot of research. we are having a little bit of trouble keeping the temperature up because our house is a little drafty during the winter time. i'm going to get a hotter bulb to go along with the heating pad thats under the tank. if things don't change within the next couple days i will b calling my vet. thanks for all the advice and i will keep you posted

[infernalis]

Aha.. makes perfect sense. without good heat, the food will go sour in the snakes tummy, and it will barf..

[whoaxmary]

Maybe try moving the snake to a smaller, and therefor easier to heat room? I had to curtain my room (which is in the basement~) off and made a smaller section with basically just my reptiles, my bed, and a small space heater. Before doing so I had an aweful time keeping my temps up inthe tank of my first snake, which was a ball python to. Although I never had anything like you described happen. Maybe that's just because it would be ok for a few days, than a lil chill for a day or two, than ok, and so on... Just an idea? Hopefully it is just a temp issue, rather than something being up with your ball python.
Maybe take a picture next time you see it! :O :P I'm sure someone here will be able to figure it out. I'd still consider a vet visit to be safe though. Good luck with everything. :)

[Lankyrob]

If he is throwing food up then once you have the temps up leave him for two weeks at the right temps before attempting to feed again. Snakes take a while for their stomach acids to settle after being sick.

[Ch^4]

Definitely get those temps up. Get a space heater if you have to.

[blindfireak40]

We have had our ball python for about a month or two...Since we have had him he has only had about 5 regular poops (brown an white).

This sounds about right for a Ball, doesn't it? Even at a full two months, that's an average of only 11 days or so between poops, and it sounds like they're healthy poops. Obviously, I could be (read probably am) wrong, but from what I recall from my ball-keeping days back in the mists of time, mine didn't poop super-frequently either.

The mouse isn't fully digested an it looks like a fleshy pink mound coming out of the bum of my snake.

Also, if all he's seeing is a "Fleshy Pink Mound" emerging, that sounds like the distended cloaca that seems to accompany snake bowel movements. Malus, can you actually make out any details of the mouse itself, or does it look just like a pink mound? Does it fall out of the snake?

Anyways, I'm not an expert on snakes by a long shot, but does this sound reasonable, Wayne and Mykee, and others? Basically that it's healthy and the "undigested mouse" is a case of mistaken identity?

[Lankyrob]

I am assuming that if the "undigested mouse" is being found in the tank it isnt attached to the snake so wouldnt be the distended claoca.

Malus - can you elaborate a little???

[blindfireak40]

And see, that's the exact thing that gave me pause--he never said he found an undigested mouse in the tank, just that when the snake poops a "Pink mound" appears where the poop comes out. I mean, obviously, if the "Pink mound" is elsewhere in the viv after the deed is done, my theory's all bunk.

I just figured he might not know what a snake pooping looked like...I didn't, until mine crapped on me lol :)

[Lankyrob]

Just reread the original question again and you may well be right!! There is no mention of a "poo" being left - i reckon you could have hit the nail on the head Blindfireak!! :)

[infernalis]

Now that it's been brought up, Yep some of my snakes and def. Chomper seem to show a bit of pink flesh at the cloaca when going potty.

I believe the physiology of reptilian rear ends is such that a portion of the rectum extends partially to keep the reproductive organs clean and free of bacterial contamination from their own feces.

[infernalis]

Just reread the original question again and you may well be right!! There is no mention of a "poo" being left - i reckon you could have hit the nail on the head Blindfireak!! :)


I just did myself, and am now humbled by just how off track we were here.

the sum of the words adds up as normal pooping with a flash of pink.

This folks is a perfect example of why it is frowned upon to offer advice to people with PM messages! Imagine if this conversation was not open to "public scrutinizing by the community" the original poster could have very well been given bad info by anyone including mykee or myself!

Read this whole thread, we all had a snake owner with a perfectly normal animal worried about something that happens every day.

[Malus]

this is a pic from last night of what i am talking about

[Malus]

i think the distended cloaca theory may b correct. how long does it just hang out there like that though?

[Lankyrob]

If it pops straight ack in then no worries, if it is like that for a period of time i would be seeking medical help, prolapses need specialist treatment to stop massive infection sinking in. If it is prolapsing then make sure the snake is kept on newspaper so that no substate can get stuck to the prolapse.

[shaunyboy]

this is a pic from last night of what i am talking about


how long does it take for it to go back to normal from the way it looks in the picture ?

that looks like a partial prolapse to me

if that does not pop back in immediatly after poo'ing i would take it to a vet

is your snake due to shed ?

if that part ever doesn't go back in you need to keep it moist until you can get vetinery treatment

mixing up a little sugar with water and spraying paper towel substrate with it should keep it moist enough

cheers shaun

[infernalis]

My bp never looks like that :(

[shaunyboy]

My bp never looks like that :(

i'm thinking its heading for a complete prolapse due to weakness in the rectal muscles wayne (just my opinion)

to the op
it may be worth while getting your vet to examine the snake as soon as possible

cheers shaun

[infernalis]

It would be nice to hear what a vet has to say, it looks rather painful.

[Malus]

ok thx guys. the first time it took a day to go back...now it hasn't gone back in a few days. i will get it looked at as soon as possible.

[Malus]

ooo it shed a few weeks ago... i keep the temperture about 80 but i am hain a har time with humidity staying above 30%...i will try and put wet newspapers in there to keep it higher

[mistersprinkles]

That snake has a prolapse. It's pretty bad. Also the snake generally doesn't look right. The skin doesn't look good and it looks dehydrated. 80 is an ambient temp but you need there to be a spot that's in the 90s for the snake to be able to warm itself up. Wet newspapers are not a good way to increase humidity. You want to either reduce air flow and mist periodically or get an automated mister.

[blindfireak40]

And if it's dehydrated, I think that could actually be exacerbating the prolapse! If the poops have low water content, I believe they may be more difficult to pass; I seem to remember hearing something to that effect. This could lead to the prolapse being made worse. Best of luck, try to get him to a vet ASAP!!

[Lankyrob]

The hot end temp needs to be 91f and humidity needs to be a minimum of 55%, personally i would be looking at getting the snake to a vet today, the longer the prolapse is outside of the body the more risk there is of massive infection or damage to the tissues.

Rather than having wet newspaper try putting a large surface area water bowl directly under/over the heat - this will increase humidity.

[shaunyboy]

ok thx guys. the first time it took a day to go back...now it hasn't gone back in a few days. i will get it looked at as soon as possible.


imo its a complete prolapse and you need to keep it moist until the vet treats it

mix some sugar with water and keep the paper towel substrate wet so it keeps the prolapse moist

your vet may be able to manipulate it back in and pop a few stitches in to keep it in place

cheers shaun

[shaunyboy]

This folks is a perfect example of why it is frowned upon to offer advice to people with PM messages! Imagine if this conversation was not open to "public scrutinizing by the community" the original poster could have very well been given bad info by anyone including mykee or myself!

Read this whole thread, we all had a snake owner with a perfectly normal animal worried about something that happens every day.

all i can say on the above is if someones offering advice via pm they should be 100% on the advice they are giving if they have not dealt with the problem hands on themselves or are unsure in any way then advice should NOT be given out

i have personally helped a few folk out via pm and i'm happy to say all the snakes made a complete recovery

the last snake i helped was a guy who got a mite cure off the net

the cure was to lock his jungle in a tub a third full of olive oil and water for 3 weeks (do not use this method)

needless to say the snake was riddled with water blisters and stressed to the max after following an alternative cure for the blisters the snake made full recovery and went on to breed this year.

so imo there is a place for help via pm

then that help can be shared with the public after the health issue of the snake in question has been resolved

i think this thread prooves a picture is worth a thousand words;)

cheers shaun

[Malus]

ok. trying to see if there is a vet in my area that does snakes. i guess i can tape up the top of the cage as the lid i have has the kind with lots of air holes. also i forgot to say the area that is 80 degres is the end of the tank that is away from the hot lamp(100 watt infrared) and under cage heating pad

[Malus]

quick update. after soaking him in water the last 2 days the prolapse has gone down alot. it is still there just not as bad. i am thinking he may not be drinking his water unless we soak him in it. that is what we have been doing when we change his tank. we will keep you informed as to how it goes

[Jenn_06]

sorry did not read everything , but you need to put him in a tub with wet paper towels and make a thick paste out of powdered or granular sugar and water that should help but need to see a vet because you might need to get it stitches to hold everything in.

[mistersprinkles]

It shed recently and it's current skin looks terrible which means it's been sick for some time and it didn't form this current skin properly. That takes the condition back several months. Add that to a prolapse and dehydration, even if it appears to have gone down, and this animal will (sorry to say it but I'm being honest) not survive for too long without medical attention. It definitely has a digestive problem and it has to be serious for all of those symptoms to be showing up. You may have to travel long distance to find a vet but you need one urgently. Like yesterday.

[Jay]

how long does it take for it to go back to normal from the way it looks in the picture ?

that looks like a partial prolapse to me

if that does not pop back in immediatly after poo'ing i would take it to a vet

is your snake due to shed ?

if that part ever doesn't go back in you need to keep it moist until you can get vetinery treatment

mixing up a little sugar with water and spraying paper towel substrate with it should keep it moist enough

cheers shaun
I keep seeing the use of sugar mentioned what does it accomplish ?
(I'm not doubting you just wondering)

[mistersprinkles]

I keep seeing the use of sugar mentioned what does it accomplish ?
(I'm not doubting you just wondering)

If anything it'll reduce the irritation and swelling but that'll do nothing about the root cause of the dehydration and skin condition or the prolapse so it needs medical attention to get better really urgently imo.

The vet will definitely want poo samples so I'd save whatever comes out in the fridge in baggies to bring with you.

[Jay]

Ah cool but yes that bp looks like he needs a vet trip

[Malus]

the pet store we got it from had aspen shavings for bedding an this is what was given to us as bedding. i wonder if he mite hae swallowed some wood chips when they fed him. i hae tried to feed him on a bare spot away from the chips but even then he could have gotten some then also. i have since taken away the chips an used newspapers as bedding. i also intend to soak him daily.

[Lankyrob]

Have you found a vet yet? Let us know how he gets on.

[shaunyboy]

If anything it'll reduce the irritation and swelling but that'll do nothing about the root cause of the dehydration and skin condition or the prolapse so it needs medical attention to get better really urgently imo.

The vet will definitely want poo samples so I'd save whatever comes out in the fridge in baggies to bring with you.

the main thing it does is stop the tissue from drying out and dying

it don't fix it but it keeps it healthy and moist until a vet can manipulate the prolapse back in and put a couple of stitches in to keep it in place

cheers shaun

[shaunyboy]

the pet store we got it from had aspen shavings for bedding an this is what was given to us as bedding. i wonder if he mite hae swallowed some wood chips when they fed him. i hae tried to feed him on a bare spot away from the chips but even then he could have gotten some then also. i have since taken away the chips an used newspapers as bedding. i also intend to soak him daily.


you need to soak his paper towels 24/7 until you see a vet the prolapse MUST be kept moist

if it drys out the tissue can die and thats not good for the snake

if you keep spraying the paper towel substrate enough to keep it wet hence keep the tissue moist

i have had plenty carpets swallow aspen substrate with no ill effect thats not to say it can't cause damage

you would be better with paper kitchen towel as when you wet the newspaper the dye might come out

cheers shaun

[infernalis]

I always use an old plain white tee shirt. never had a problem.

Soak the shirt, wring it out and lay it down on the floor of the cage.

nice and moist, don't rip or fall apart, and snakes can hide in the folds.

[mistersprinkles]

Eating a couple of aspen shavings won't hurt your snake. It isn't my favorite bedding but it is definitely not going to hurt him for swallowing a couple of pieces. Have you found a vet?

[Malus]

no vet yet however the prolapse is gone completely and has been for the last 24 hours or more. i also have been keeping him real moist and his skin is much better looking. i will post a new pic tomorrow and you an tell me if he looks better

[infernalis]

sounds like good news..

[mykee]

I missed a lot of this thread, but all I can say here is that snake looks to be in rough shape.
Dehydration (which as mentioned exacerbates the issue) is also causing terrible sheds.
Poor humidity in the enclosure is to blame and/or a lack of drinking water.
Vet trip in order for sure.
I suspect internal parasites.

[mistersprinkles]

no vet yet however the prolapse is gone completely and has been for the last 24 hours or more. i also have been keeping him real moist and his skin is much better looking. i will post a new pic tomorrow and you an tell me if he looks better

But you are going to a vet right? Because if you don't that's kinda bad.

[Malus]

i fully intend to take him as soon as i can find a vet that deals with snakes. pic to come later to day

[Malus]

sorry so long on the pic, things are busy round the house cuz my wifes mother from Cali is coming out for a visit soon. Snake is still doing great. Think it was just dehydrated bad. still haven't found a vet round these parts. sucks living in BFE. here some pics.

[Malus]

and i know everyone is just really wanting me to take a trip to the vets but I still am looking around in my spare time for one that sees snakes. and a trip to the vet costs quite a bit of money, which we just aren't rolling in around here. I think we have worked out the kinks for now but i'm still gonna vet shop just in case it happens again. love my snake, just like all the other animals and I treat them all the way I want to be treated when i get reincarnated as an animal haha.

[mistersprinkles]

http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/attachments/python-regius/12538d1303177406-constipation-dscn1403.jpg

Head too big for rest of body. Skin looks 3 months old rather than 1 month. Spine too easily visible. Too thin. Skin looks dehydrated, appears floppy and weak.

In the second image, there is a visible bump before the cloaca that shouldn't be there. No baby ball python's skin should ever look that old, work, kinked and wrinkly, or dark. That snake has the skin of a 10+ year old adult. I'm making out kinks and dimples on it's back scales that should not be there. The scales should be smooth and shiny and look almost wet when taking a photo with bright light or flash. It is like this because it is sick. Only a vet can tell you why.

If you can't afford to take the animal to a vet when it's in dire straits, you can't afford the animal. It's really sh*tty to say, but that's the bottom line here.

You really ought to take it in, because in the condition it is now, nobody's going to adopt it then take it to the vet. People don't think that way. They'd rather spend 1/3 as much and get a 'new' one.

And I don't know about the whole looking for a vet in my spare time thing. I'm not being rude, I'm just a little pickled by the whole thing. It takes 20 minutes. yellowpages.com 'veterinarian ; reptile .... city/state'

I feel that in my near 3 decades of mostly reptile and odd creature experience, and very little human experience, I can say with 90% certainty, that this animal will not make it if it is not treated. It's suffering from some very severe signs of malnutrition and dehydration. When something is chronically malnourished like that, you can't just feed it and make it better. The root cause needs to be adressed. That's not even considering the prolapse.

I can say for sure that if you had that snake coiled tight around two fingers and tried to open them, you could. A month old ball python should be able to put one coil tightly enough around two of your fingers to hold on that you can't make the peace sign without feeling like you're going to snap something.

[Lankyrob]

http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/attachments/python-regius/12538d1303177406-constipation-dscn1403.jpg

Head too big for rest of body. Skin looks 3 months old rather than 1 month. Spine too easily visible. Too thin. Skin looks dehydrated, appears floppy and weak.

In the second image, there is a visible bump before the cloaca that shouldn't be there. No baby ball python's skin should ever look that old, work, kinked and wrinkly, or dark. That snake has the skin of a 10+ year old adult. I'm making out kinks and dimples on it's back scales that should not be there. The scales should be smooth and shiny and look almost wet when taking a photo with bright light or flash. It is like this because it is sick. Only a vet can tell you why.

If you can't afford to take the animal to a vet when it's in dire straits, you can't afford the animal. It's really sh*tty to say, but that's the bottom line here.

You really ought to take it in, because in the condition it is now, nobody's going to adopt it then take it to the vet. People don't think that way. They'd rather spend 1/3 as much and get a 'new' one.

And I don't know about the whole looking for a vet in my spare time thing. I'm not being rude, I'm just a little pickled by the whole thing. It takes 20 minutes. yellowpages.com 'veterinarian ; reptile .... city/state'

I feel that in my near 3 decades of mostly reptile and odd creature experience, and very little human experience, I can say with 90% certainty, that this animal will not make it if it is not treated. It's suffering from some very severe signs of malnutrition and dehydration. When something is chronically malnourished like that, you can't just feed it and make it better. The root cause needs to be adressed. That's not even considering the prolapse.

I can say for sure that if you had that snake coiled tight around two fingers and tried to open them, you could. A month old ball python should be able to put one coil tightly enough around two of your fingers to hold on that you can't make the peace sign without feeling like you're going to snap something.

You can tell all that from a pic!! Wow you must have super diagnostic powers!!

How can a snake be TOO dark for its age?? Ever considered that it may be a darker coloured snake than others? And could you explain what you mean by the head being too big for the body?

I see a snake that looks relatively healthy - hard to diagnose all but the most severe cases of malnoutrition from a picture and to my eyes that looks like a normal shaped ball python.

I do agree that with a prolapse like it had it needs looking at by a vet but not living anywhere near the OP i wouldnt like to say whether he should be able to find a vet easily or not.

In the pic with the snake around the fingers it looks to me like the snake is supporting its own weight with its grip.


TO THE OP - there were previous mentions of humidity being a little low - is this up where it should be now?

[mistersprinkles]

You can tell all that from a pic!! Wow you must have super diagnostic powers!!

How can a snake be TOO dark for its age?? Ever considered that it may be a darker coloured snake than others? And could you explain what you mean by the head being too big for the body?



On a 32" IPS panel, yes, I can.
I was begged to work at a shop repeatedly when I was 14 because I could spot mites in a snake's heat pits from six feet away.

The head is too big for it's body, a sign of stunting. Compare that snake to another ball with the same size head. And another. And another. You only need the head size as a ratio.

The snake is too dark for it's age. No baby ball python's patterning is that dull. There is a fundamental lack of any kind of sheen to that animal's skin. I can make out wrinkles in it very easily as well as kinks- especially if I blow up the image and alter the gamma.

The snake has no muscle tone in the posterior third of its body where its on the bed. It should always be flexing mildly so that if you lift it, it does not flop limply, but remains relatively rigid.

Of course the snake is supporting itself in the other picture. A constrictor no longer able to support itself in such a way is a lost cause, which this snake is not.

I'm not a nice person, but I have yet to meet anybody that is as good with animal morphology as I am. Honestly.

I've corrected 4 decade experts on fish identifications. This is just something I'm good at.

That snake needs a vet. It won't be alive this time next year. They last a long time sick because of their very low energy consumption compared to other kinds of animals, but they don't last forever if they're sick.

I'm just giving my opinion, which I know is right, in a very stern way at this point because I don't think that people are recognizing the severity of this animal's condition.

Once something is clinically and chronically dehydrated- just in and of itself, it needs help.
We have a prolapse (the fact that it's gone back in means nothing), likely intestinal damage, likely parasites, a definite nutrient uptake problem, chronic dehydration, stunting...

[Lankyrob]

When does your tv show start? Surely with these skills you must be in such high demand by all networks?

[SnakeyJay]

When does your tv show start? Surely with these skills you must be in such high demand by all networks?

Lol ur on a rampage today rob..

[mistersprinkles]

When does your tv show start? Surely with these skills you must be in such high demand by all networks?

I'm holding out for more money. :freakedout:

Hopefully I'll have something on local TV by the end of the year. Bigger national networks and even the BBC have expressed interest as well.

We're playing with a few names, such as "The insightful prick's journal of animal husbandry"

[Malus]

to respond to every one who is not a natural born animal god
he is about 4 months old
the snakes head is smaller then the width of my finger while his body is easily twice that
his skin has a very nice sheen to it as well as all the left over scales have rubbed off with the exception being right behind his jaw. also according to the humidity gauge it is around 60%
the lump at the bottom of his but is all gone and he is once again plotting escape at nite as he tries to climb his cage. hopefully it is just a case of bad info from the pet store on the water dish(which i now realize was way to small)
also i found a vet to get him checked but they want a 100 dallor bill just to look at him and as my money needs are not the greatest right now i hope he can wait a month or two longer. i have since fed him and he has passed it no problems

[Malus]

see, the snake can hold itself up. and i just got done disentangling him from the wife's hair and he DID NOT want to go, so now she has a bald spot LOL
and his nice shiny heiny

[Lankyrob]

He certainly looks and sounds like he has fully recovered, personally i would still want him checked tho you say he has fed and passed poop since with no problen so hopefully it was a one off.

Hope all is ok now and in the future

[mistersprinkles]

also i found a vet to get him checked but they want a 100 dallor bill just to look at him and as my money needs are not the greatest right now i hope he can wait a month or two longer. i have since fed him and he has passed it no problems

It'll likely be more than $100.

It just occurred to me that what you might have is a muscular issue leading to the prolapse. I've seen it. Is the enclosure very tall? So tall that the snake has to literally stand on its tail to prop itself all the way up? They do things like that at night. I had a BP ten years ago that ended up causing a muscle rupture by standing on a part of its tail it wasn't supposed to. It pulled the muscle, this caused a bit of internal bleeding (a pink spot) right behind the vent. I took the snake in to be looked at. There was no permanent damage and it did end up healing by itself. I had to change the setup though.

At least if you don't take him to the vet, feed him small prey, like fuzzies, for a couple of weeks to minimize any stress or stretching to the digestive tract. If the snake passes normal (log shaped, brown) waste a few times in a row and there is no sign of prolapse (you shouldn't see anything funny when the snake poos, it just comes out and that's it). for a few weeks and the snake is growing it'll be ok. If you see strange poo, any more signs of prolapse, weakness, eyes that look a bit dry and sunken, anything like that, I would urge that the snake needs to be looked at by a professional.

You might be able to find a vet who's also a hobbyist, or a hobbyist that has an unusual amount of anatomy knowledge that will look at the snake over a few beers for you for free. I've lucked out like that.

If you're friends with a dentist you can probably get an Xray out of him for the cost of the Xray sheet itself. The low power small dental xray machine for molars is powerful enough to see through a small snake. No danger to it.

I want to say sorry for sounding too rough earlier.

I get too worried about animals sometimes. More than people. Kind of strange that way.

[Malus]

we have been feeding him f/t fuzzies since that is what he ate at the shop. the tank is a 15 gallon fish tank about 14 in tall he usally doesn't try to stand all the way up on his tail but will get about 1/2 up hen move down some more.
on a side note i was reading other posts about people cages/tanks/etc and was wondering
on the "hotend"(where the infared light and heating pad is) stay a constant 90 with about 60% humidity and the cool end changes between 78ish to 83ish depending on the outside temp with about 45-50% humidity. half of his lid is covered with newspaper wrapped in aluminum foil with shiny side down to reflect heat back in as this is the only way i can keep the temps high. is this fine or should i try other things. i have changed his bedding from the aspen shavings to news paper and wet it down with a mister bottle 2-3 times a day and have his water dish sitting on his heating pad so his water is warm as well as adding to the humidity. since i have made these changes he has gotten alot better and was just wondering if this is fine or should i be looking for something else to house him.

[Lankyrob]

If you can keep consistent humidity and temps then no need to change, if not then it is a quick fix to change rather than fiddle with what you have. We use reptibark as our substrate, it is great for holding moisture without mould like aspen does.