inbreeding?

[Wolfus_305]

Hey everybody,

I've been reading a lot about breeding because the genetics interests me. I've noticed a lot of people saying that it's acceptable to breed siblings from the same clutch with each other, as well as breeding offspring to parents.
What do you guys think?

Kendra

[mykee]

I have never bred sib to sib, but have and will continue to breed parent to child for one generation.
I do my best to outcross genetics as often as I can.

[Wolfus_305]

that's interesting, i didn't realize you could do that.

[stephanbakir]

From what I understand, you don't get noticeable issues till you pass the third generation of inbreeding,

[Wolfus_305]

hmm what would possible issues be?
What about half siblings, same thing?

[stephanbakir]

Buggy eyes and minor facial deformations are the only ones I've personally noticed.

[NennaMeerkat]

I guess there is no real problem with it as long as you don't do it over and over and over for several generations...but I would personally never do it. Only a personal preference though.

[Jendee]

They dont call it inbreeding they call it "line breeding" you must breed related snakes if your looking to bring out a certian charastic in a snake, or if your trying to figure out the type of genetics involved. When you get the deformities its usually a weakened line without enough outbreeding. So inline, inline, outline, inline outline, inline, outline, hets unrelated hets bam then you have your own outcrossed line :) something like that lol

[Wolfus_305]

thanks for the correction :)

I'm considering getting two het piebalds. The guy said that he has some from different clutches but that they have the same father because he only used one male pied last year. I am asking him how far back they are related. is that a good place to start? I want to make sure i'll have as few complications as possible if in a few years when i'm done school i decide to try breeding.

any suggestions for picking out snakes would be great :)

[Jendee]

Oh I wasnt correcting you lol it is inbreeding..its just kind of a funny hahaha that people call it "line breeding" so it doesnt sound so bad lol

[Wolfus_305]

ahah you're right, that doesn't sound quite as bad :P

[infernalis]

Two snakes from different bloodlines may not exactly produce the results you are after.

So getting two hets from different bloodlines will most likely not produce any piebald or albinos in the clutch.

if you want to ensure that the same genetic "defect" appears in your litter, chances are greatly enhanced with "line breeding"

[Shmoges]

Buggy eyes and minor facial deformations are the only ones I've personally noticed.

We just got a KSB that seems to have buggy eyes and a more slender face than our other KSB's. We were thinking it looked slightly more like a Russian sand boa or rough scale in terms of facial structure.

[mykee]

"So getting two hets from different bloodlines will most likely not produce any piebald or albinos in the clutch."

Not the case with ball pythons, a het albino from Line A will successfully produce albinos when bred to a het albino from Line B.
Same deal for OG's, clowns, axanthics, and ever other recessive ball python morph out there.

"From what I understand, you don't get noticeable issues till you pass the third generation of inbreeding"

Never heard this; so "3" is the number, eh?

Wolfus; breeding step sibs is ok, because they only share one half of their genetic make-up. I breed step sibs (back and forth for five generations now) and have not had an issue.

[infernalis]

I have also seen abbreviated tails, increased stillborns and too many runts.

One of the problems encountered with many snakes, so many people want to become the next "big breeder" and order pairs, many times those pairs are siblings, so here would be an example of where this becomes a problem...

I am using made up names here to prevent slander of anyone.

Stan Smith is a breeder of corn snakes, he produces some of the coolest morphs around.

Peter Griffin is interested in cashing in on the new "caramel candy creamed corn morph" so he places an order with Stan for one male and one female.

Stan ships a pair of siblings to Peter, Peter raises them and breeds them, then he places advertising on queensnake offering his snakes.

Brian and Roger want to breed these same morphs, but they find Peter's prices better than Stan's so they order a pair each from Peter, raise them and breed them....

see where this is heading??

I just happen to know firsthand that several of my snakes were already F4-F5 upon obtaining them.

[infernalis]

Not the case with ball pythons, a het albino from Line A will successfully produce albinos when bred to a het albino from Line B.
Same deal for OG's, clowns, axanthics, and ever other recessive ball python morph out there..


That's good to know Mykee.. I learn something new about Royals from you constantly.

[shaunyboy]

Hey everybody,

I've been reading a lot about breeding because the genetics interests me. I've noticed a lot of people saying that it's acceptable to breed siblings from the same clutch with each other, as well as breeding offspring to parents.
What do you guys think?

Kendra

i do it with specific line bred projects

i am currently growing on a pair of 2009 F2 specific line bred irian jaya reduced patterns brought into the uk by myself from a breeder in holland.they were specifically bred for for their reduced pattern and high yellow colour i hope to get even better looking F3's from them.

i would take a carpet line breeding project as far as F4's as has been done many times with carpet pythons with no health issue's

its generally agreed on by most carpet enthusiasts that carpets can be bred up to F 4's without any issue's

its only carpets i keep so can only comment on them

cheers shaun

[Wolfus_305]

wow, thank you for the great information everybody. It was very helpful :)

F4's would be 4 generations from the original pairing?

That's neat about the BP's and the recessive morphs

Wayne... your story kind of lost me.. I know you simplified a lot of things. So it's bad that your snakes are F4, F5 because you want them closer to F1?

Thanks again everybody!

Kendra

[infernalis]

Exactly.. I have a couple Albino Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis (Red sided garter snakes) that normally retail for a few hundred dollars each, produce litters (on average) of 20+ babies per breeding cycle.

So even if I sold them at prices below the other breeders, I could easily take in $3000 from one pairing.

However, once they grew up, they displayed big bug eyes, So I contacted the breeder and found that my snakes have already been inbred 5 times over before I even got them.

so.. I refuse to breed them, thus losing out on 3K I could really use....

[Wolfus_305]

oh wow, that's horrible!

I'm toying with the idea of trying to breed once or twice when i'm done school. and I came accross these two het pieds that have the same father, different mothers. They look nice and if I was going to purchase them I wanted to make sure it went along with my future plans so that I wouldn't need to sell one or both to get something to breed with or that no issues would be caused by breeding them.

Very interesting stuff i'm learning here

[infernalis]

I would listen to Mykee, he knows a lot more about BP than I ever could.

that sounds like a great investment, the BP market is strong, and pieds get great money.

[Wolfus_305]

Thank you for the encouragement! I'm excited and very willing to learn and take any advice that people are considerate enough to give to me.

I would hate to find out later down the road that I couldn't breed the two I bought

Thanks again everybody!
Kendra

[Jendee]

I have also seen abbreviated tails, increased stillborns and too many runts.

One of the problems encountered with many snakes, so many people want to become the next "big breeder" and order pairs, many times those pairs are siblings, so here would be an example of where this becomes a problem...

I am using made up names here to prevent slander of anyone.

Stan Smith is a breeder of corn snakes, he produces some of the coolest morphs around.

Peter Griffin is interested in cashing in on the new "caramel candy creamed corn morph" so he places an order with Stan for one male and one female.

Stan ships a pair of siblings to Peter, Peter raises them and breeds them, then he places advertising on queensnake offering his snakes.

Brian and Roger want to breed these same morphs, but they find Peter's prices better than Stan's so they order a pair each from Peter, raise them and breed them....

see where this is heading??

I just happen to know firsthand that several of my snakes were already F4-F5 upon obtaining them.


Good point!! I never looked at this way!!

[infernalis]

Good point!! I never looked at this way!!


The "Macfarlane rule" :yes: