Caging discussion

[Nektu]

It was some what brought up in another thread about why you shouldn't keep the same kind of snakes of the same sex in the same enclosure. But why not? Discuss here what your thoughts about this are.

I keep my ball python males together. I seperate them to feed. It was brought up that they wouldn't do this in the wild. That may be true, but this isn't the wild and they weren't brought out of the wild they were captive bred. I know the dangers of keeping them together. If one gets sick the other may too. But as a keeper, isn't it my choice, and yours too, to keep them together if the enclosure is the right size?

I keep an herbavor with a carnivore, lizards, and they cohabitate well. But I also know that there are some lizards you can not do this with. I can not put a geko with anything. So, what is the big deal?

(this discussion is not meant to start any arguments but to be civil in ask manners be it an original post or defending your stance)

[stephanbakir]

It depends allot on the species. I know that my friends olive pythons and burms cant be held together (both needed stitches) (2 burms or 2 olives) but i know allot of people that keep corns, balls and garters together without any issues.
Try to give them 2 hides, both with ideal conditions, that way if they both want to bask but don't want to share they can. And NEVER feed together.

[Nektu]

Absolutely feed separately. Ball pythons, if they get the same rat from different ends, will continue to eat and eat the other snake.

[NennaMeerkat]

I kept 2 corns together for several years. Bought them together, they were from the same clutch, and were the same size. I had a large long aquarium with several hides and plenty of room for them to stay away from one another if they wanted. Often times though they would in the same hide or in the same place where my heating pad was beneath the tank. Never had fights and the snakes never seemed stressed.

Honestly I think it depends on the individual attitude of the snakes in question.

[mykee]

Stress.
Illness.
Cannibalism.
Nice and short.
I've wasted way too many words over the last 10 years trying to convince people to seperate their ball pythons.
You'll end up doing what you want regardless of the compelling reasons not to.

[Damion930]

cannablism in ball python pic - Google Search (http://www.google.com/m?client=ms-android-verizon&hl=en&gl=us&source=android-launcher-widget&q=cannablism+in+ball+python+pic&site=images&ei=7sSbTeiEAYimNda976kC&ved=0CBkQ7AkwAA)

[stephanbakir]

pshh one of those is a boa:P not sure what the one the kid is holding is:P

[Nektu]

Yeah, I saw that too.
Honestly, I don't see 2 ball pythons, same age and practically "growing up" together getting to that point unless they are neglected and not fed on a regular basis. I can see the stress aspect also, but only if the enclosure is to small to house them. Illness? If one gets sick because of what you fed it, chances are the other will be also.

[Jay]

Yeah, I saw that too.
Honestly, I don't see 2 ball pythons, same age and practically "growing up" together getting to that point unless they are neglected and not fed on a regular basis. I can see the stress aspect also, but only if the enclosure is to small to house them. Illness? If one gets sick because of what you fed it, chances are the other will be also.

The sad part is you wont be able to see it until its to late
They should be separated but there is nothing i can say or do

[reptile65]

I keep an herbavor with a carnivore, lizards, and they cohabitate well. But I also know that there are some lizards you can not do this with. I can not put a geko with anything. So, what is the big deal?


Just out of curiosity, what lizards do you keep together?

[stephanbakir]

I kept Cuban curly tails together before, but in the wild, its not uncommon to see 10-15 of these living together in one piece of coral

[Damion930]

I just don't see what is so kewl about keeping them together. Dosent seem worth the risk. Ther are lots of reasons not to house reptiles together but no real good reasons to put them together. To each ther own realy but not my snakes.

[stephanbakir]

With curly tails, mine got stressed when housed alone. That being said, with any other animal i would never house them together, i have friends who do, but CUBAN curly tails are different, they are really social.

[Damion930]

Those are cool lookin I had to look them up

[stephanbakir]

The one i had ate from my hands, and did this really cool thing where it tilted its head, gave its prey item the one eyed "rape eye" and charged it lol. then flipped me off with its tail and chewed on my finger to ask for more food lol.

[Reptilians]

eh, the way i see it is...snakes aren't really social creatures as in they don't need talk with or hang out with another snake to keep them happy, so there is no reason to house them together. i don't really believe that two snakes that grew up together and have been together their whole lives will really miss each other if one were to have its own place.
So really the only reason to house two snakes together is for cost effect and space-which both can easily be fixed.

[Lankyrob]

I know of people that keep snakes together and have had no issues whatsoever, i also TOTALLY agree that they are YOUR snakes and you can pretty much do what you like with them, we are all adults and make our own choices.

As stated in the other thread, you find a regurge or a dodgy looking poo and you wont know which one did it, if one gets ill you have to treat both as it may be impossible to know which one it is, and/or the infection will spread to the other.

I did keep corns together for a while, some said it shouldnt happen, others said it was fine and my days of research and trawling the 'net gave a 60/40 split leaning toward it being ok.

After a couple of months of no apparent issues one of them turned on the other (they were identical ages and sizes and had been together pretty much from hatching), he chased him, harassed him and just wouldnt let him rest so i separated them and wouldnt ever bother trying it in the future.

[Nektu]

Just out of curiosity, what lizards do you keep together?
My spiny and chukwala are housed together. Both female. Will "cuddle" under the heat lamp.

Damion, never said it was "kewl" to keep them together, but it works on multiple levels.

[infernalis]

The only snakes I ever house together are my garter snakes, they are species that spend a great deal of time in groups out in the wild. It is very common to find them on multiples while herping, they mass den over the winter and even participate in massive breeding "orgies" called breeding balls when they mate.

To avoid any problems, I raise them together and separate them for feedings.

all of my other snakes are housed solo.

[stephanbakir]

Besides garters, no other snake comes to mind, Lots of lizards however can be described as social.

[EvaS]

I keep my gophers together.Ive not had any problems so far.I pull one out for feeding in a bin, the other stays in the enclosure.
I used to house a pair of corns together as well.
When I go out "herping" I often find more then one snake under something.Mainly garters or ringnecks.Im willing to bet even ball pythons occasionally den up together if its a prime spot.
Not that Im saying it should be done.But Im willing to risk it with the colubrids a bit more then the boas or pythons.I couldnt even tell you why.

[marvelfreak]

It was some what brought up in another thread about why you shouldn't keep the same kind of snakes of the same sex in the same enclosure. But why not? Discuss here what your thoughts about this are.

I keep my ball python males together.


The reason you shouldn't do this is, because when they get breeding age they can turn on each other. Males will become very aggressive towards other males when breeding season comes around.

[citysnakes]

cuddling is a sign of competition. competition is a source of stress. constant stress caused by constant competition with a cagemate will lead to illness. an educated, responsible keeper will house animals separately to prevent unnecessary stress and illness.

social animals or not, a captive environment can never match the same dynamic as nature and a cagemate will always be a source of stress to a captive reptile.

to me, Rob's 60/40 split just represents the irresponsibility of many reptile keepers out there. get educated and give these animals the quality of life that they deserve.

my 0.02

[Nektu]

The reason you shouldn't do this is, because when they get breeding age they can turn on each other. Males will become very aggressive towards other males when breeding season comes around.

Like with other animals? Where males will "challenge" one another and usually the strongest more dominant one will end up breeding with the female? Because that is what you are describing.

@city, I can't help but feel as if you are calling me an irresponsible keeper.

Anyhow, I've been doing research while at work to find out what other breeders have to say about keeping ball pythons together and have decided to build a rack system of my own where they can be kept separately yet comfortably.

[Damion930]

Oh I know you didn't say it was because its kewl but that or because people don't have the room and want to save space is usualy the reason people give for wanting to house together ther just isn't a valid reason to do so imo.

[TeaNinja]

Like with other animals? Where males will "challenge" one another and usually the strongest more dominant one will end up breeding with the female? Because that is what you are describing.

@city, I can't help but feel as if you are calling me an irresponsible keeper.

Anyhow, I've been doing research while at work to find out what other breeders have to say about keeping ball pythons together and have decided to build a rack system of my own where they can be kept separately yet comfortably.

i don't know if it matters that a female is actually on hand. once they mature they might just get pissed that another male is near them.

and good call, ball pythons probably love racks.

[Ch^4]

Stress.
Illness.
Cannibalism.
Nice and short.
I've wasted way too many words over the last 10 years trying to convince people to seperate their ball pythons.
You'll end up doing what you want regardless of the compelling reasons not to.

x2

cuddling is a sign of competition. competition is a source of stress. constant stress caused by constant competition with a cagemate will lead to illness. an educated, responsible keeper will house animals separately to prevent unnecessary stress and illness.

social animals or not, a captive environment can never match the same dynamic as nature and a cagemate will always be a source of stress to a captive reptile.

to me, Rob's 60/40 split just represents the irresponsibility of many reptile keepers out there. get educated and give these animals the quality of life that they deserve.

my 0.02

x2

[Lankyrob]

Like with other animals? Where males will "challenge" one another and usually the strongest more dominant one will end up breeding with the female? Because that is what you are describing.

@city, I can't help but feel as if you are calling me an irresponsible keeper.

Anyhow, I've been doing research while at work to find out what other breeders have to say about keeping ball pythons together and have decided to build a rack system of my own where they can be kept separately yet comfortably.


Just wanted to say "Kudos" to you for listening, researching and making changes to help the health and wellbeing of your snakes. The easy route is to dig your heels in and not listen, it takes a big person to make the changes (and to state that you are doing so publicly).

:):):)

[mykee]

"cuddling is a sign of competition. competition is a source of stress. constant stress caused by constant competition with a cagemate will lead to illness. an educated, responsible keeper will house animals separately to prevent unnecessary stress and illness."

I could not have said that any better myself.
Bravo Sir.