venomous???

[Damion930]

So just read an article of an interview of Dr.Bryan Grieg Fry about venomous snake studys. He talked about colubrids being venomus he said all but specifically mentioned a few. Egyptian cat snakes telepscopus having venom as toxic as king cobra also mentioned Keeled ratsnake (ptyas carinatus), Radiated rat (coelognathus radiatus) and various species of garter (thamnophis) containing 3ftx three finger toxins nerotoxin. So what are your thoughts

[red ink]

Colubrids are venomous.. the only difference is that they are rear fanged where as elapidae and viperidae are front fanged.

[Damion930]

Hm kewl I had heard a little on it but it was always from unreliable sources so I found it kinda interesting when I read the interview and have ben looking into it more

[Shmoges]

Wait, so corn snakes are venomous? Like hognose or vine snakes?

[blindfireak40]

I highly doubt corns are venomous, as that would be a large redundancy...why constrict AND envenomate? Obviously, I could be completely wrong, but I'm fairly certain that corns and other constricting colubrids are non-venomous.

[red ink]

Wait, so corn snakes are venomous? Like hognose or vine snakes?

As I am not familiar with them... but if they are a colubrid then yes. They would "kill/subdue" prey via venom unlike constrictors (pythons and boas) therefore venomous. In saying that their venom is not toxic to us (there are colubrids that are) so therefore "harmless". There are species of Australian elapidae whos venom is not toxic to humans but they are elapids (venomous) none the less.

[red ink]

I highly doubt corns are venomous, as that would be a large redundancy...why constrict AND envenomate? Obviously, I could be completely wrong, but I'm fairly certain that corns and other constricting colubrids are non-venomous.

Being rear fanged colubridaes have to hold on to prey in order to deliver the toxin, contriction is a form of restraint in the process but not the main method of killing the prey.

[blindfireak40]

Without saying so too belligerently or bluntly, I think you're wrong on that one, bud. I was unable to dig up anything on venomous corn snakes, and a quick youtube search turned up these videos. First, Garters and Hoggies. Note the lack of constriction, or even waiting for death, instead, they simply gobble 'em right up

gP_yf--ESaM&feature=related

vsEZXvG6muQ

Now, a corn. Two quick, tight coils, that don't get released until the mouse is well and truly dead. Note also the lack of chewing, which is the primary method of envenomation for rear-fanged snakes. To be fair, this video doesn't show the lack of chewing very well, but others out there doubtlessly do.
rew9O5IlHnk&feature=related

Again, no disrespect meant.

[Damion930]

From what I read they all had an amount of venom potency varied but even garters had reported envenomations with nerotoxic effect of 3ftx lol lil guy would have to chew on you for quite a bit id think kinda crazy.

[Damion930]

So just read another report on rat snakes and they had venom found homologous to and as potent as a comparetive cobra toxin having the same gland corn snake=red rat snake

[Lankyrob]

Corns are not venomous, garters are POISONOUS (one of only three snakes in the world that are) but not venomous.

Can you post a link to the study? Am sure a lot of us would be "interested" in having a laugh.

By the way its April 1st!

[blindfireak40]

CURSE YOU, TIME ZONES!! lol it was still firmly the 31st where I live...Also, I found this guy and his studies. Basically, what he's saying is that all colubrids retain the physiology of a venomous animal. He makes the same statement about crocodiles, sharks, and various mammals.


From what I've been able to gather, making the leap to calling a Corn Snake venomous would be quite akin to saying that a ball python actually has legs due to their spurs, or saying that Humans are technically tailed mammals because we have a coccyx.

[Aaron_S]

I may not be correct in this but I believe that the study holds true that most snakes are indeed venomous. The problem is they lack any real way of delivering that venom. I believe most of these snakes don't even have proper rear-fangs so essentially they have no way of using their venom. I could be wrong but something in the back of my mind tells me this came from somewhere before.

[blindfireak40]

Exactly! Boids are also bipedal, as they have hip girdles and rudimentary psuedo-legs, but they lack any real way of utilizing their pelvic structure for locomotion. That's essentially the kind of thing this guy is saying, and you put it pretty well, Aaron.

They have the physiology, they just can't bring it to bear.

[emilie]

wow good joke guys

[Damion930]

Lol no joke he's the leading researcher in his feild Aaron s touched on what he sez and that's that though they contain venom most is not harmfull to humans or they do not have the means to deliver it to us but others do thers info on him and his studys all over the placehttp://www.venomdoc.com/
the interveiw I read is on another forum am I alowed to link to that?

[Damion930]

I think the term venomous is kinda misleading in the sence that we associate it with dangerous but bees spiders and mosquitos have venom it just wont hurt us unless we havean allergic reaction

[Damion930]

http://www.venomdoc.com/venomdoc/Scientific_publications_files/2008_BGF_Evolution_of_an_Arsenal.pdf
http://www.venomdoc.com/downloads/2009_Fry_Toxicofera_review.pdf

[reptile65]

Corns are not venomous, garters are POISONOUS (one of only three snakes in the world that are) but not venomous.


I'm pretty sure garters are indeed mildly venomous.

[Lankyrob]

Not sure about that, they are definitely poisonous tho. Wayne arre your lil guys venomous and poisonous??

[whoaxmary]

Lol, where is wayne? - I'm very curious to hear more about all this~

[stephanbakir]

I'm curious to know as-well lol, I've been catching garters since before I could walk and this is the first I hear of this lol.

[red ink]

I was going by the classification of colubridae for corn snakes (as I don't or will ever own one) being venomous. My understnding of the colubridae is being rear fanged venomous snake.

[Damion930]

Read page 8/9 second paragraph I belive it talks about garters http://www.kingsnake.com/toxinology/venomdoc/Scientific_publications_files/2004_BGF_colubrid_neurotoxicity.pdf

[blindfireak40]

I was going by the classification of colubridae for corn snakes (as I don't or will ever own one) being venomous. My understnding of the colubridae is being rear fanged venomous snake.

Ah, see that's where the inaccuracy lies...in one of his articles, the statement is made to the effect that although all colubrids possess the GLANDS, the constricting colubrids entirely lack the TEETH for envenomation (they are not even rear-fanged). Thus, they are not venomous, as the ability to envenomate is part of the definition.

Garters and Hoggies, however, do have the rear-fangs to deliver their (admittedly mild) venom.

[Shmoges]

I was going by the classification of colubridae for corn snakes (as I don't or will ever own one) being venomous. My understnding of the colubridae is being rear fanged venomous snake.


lol thats not a very good reason to not own a corn snake. they are wonderful snakes :D I bet you just like bigger snakes. Or have I misread your parenthesized statement?

[colender]

im looking into getting a poisonous snake like vipers and i was wondering if anyone could give me some input on the subject, ive had about 13 years of experience with snakes.

[red ink]

lol thats not a very good reason to not own a corn snake. they are wonderful snakes :D I bet you just like bigger snakes. Or have I misread your parenthesized statement?

Don't and will never own them as I'm Australian....

[percey39]

Just seen this thread and none of you guy's have mentioned the boomslang ( Dispholidus typus ) yet. This snake is a member of the colubridae and has the potential to kill a human quite easily ( especially if left untreated ) and has done so in the past. Their venom is hemotoxic and will cause internal bleeding and bleeding through any oriface.
Their venom is slow acting but can definetely be fatal within 2-6 hours, their venom yield is very small but due to the nature of the toxin the symptoms can often be perceived as a day to day annoyance ( ie headaches and sleeplessness ). Often left untreated as the victim does not believe they are suffering due to the envenomation. Accurate accounts for the statistics of bites/envenomation and the amount of deaths attributed to the boomslang are non existant due to their location and the amount of deaths annually in the area that have been uninvestigated over the years.

Venomous and poisonous are two completely different things. Poisonous means that something is potentially deadly when ingested ( eaten ), whilst venomous means that something is potentially deadly when injected ( directly into the blood stream )

[stephanbakir]

im looking into getting a poisonous snake like vipers and i was wondering if anyone could give me some input on the subject, ive had about 13 years of experience with snakes.
If you are serious about it, get a mentor to teach you the ropes and get a few years of experience with hots under your belt. As a candian you cant own a venomous snake, but we do have a rattlesnake native to canada.

That being said, I have about 15 years experience with snake, and when i was 10 i started catching more dangerous herps, caught lots of vipers in the wild and after learning some hard lessons, DON'T ever handle a hot unless you need to, its a risk that generally isn't worth taking.

I'm not saying don't do it, im just saying that if you are serious about it, take the proper steps and do it correctly or you are taking a huge risk..

[infernalis]

I'm pretty sure garters are indeed mildly venomous.

Not sure about that, they are definitely poisonous tho. Wayne arre your lil guys venomous and poisonous??

Lol, where is wayne? - I'm very curious to hear more about all this~

Garter snakes do indeed posses a very mild toxin to basically slow down the struggle of small items like minnows and earthworms.

The toxin is known as 3FTx produced by the Duvernoy's gland at the rear of it's mouth.

However, I have been bitten way more times than I can count, draws blood, mild itch and thats it.

As far as poisonous, I'd never eat my pets, so I can't really say:rolleyes:

[vendettaseve]

As far as poisonous, I'd never eat my pets, so I can't really say:rolleyes:

No matter how delicious they may look ;) *evil laugh*

Thats actually news to me, Iv been nailed by garter snakes many times as a kid, feels pretty much the same as any breaking of the skin, painful at first(not really) then a little itchy as it heals.

This begs the question, now that we know they have said venom, would we notice it more when it happens?

[mistersprinkles]

im looking into getting a poisonous snake like vipers and i was wondering if anyone could give me some input on the subject, ive had about 13 years of experience with snakes.

If you're in Canada, you'll never get the permit. They won't issue you one without a doctorate or a prayer.

So not only are you in danger from venom, you're also in danger of a (read: S E V E R E) fine. We're talking like five thousand dollars. Also, obviously, they would take the snake.

I don't know if you remember the story of the idiot from Ontario who had a tiger and a proper crocodile in a bachelor apartment but apart from getting badly injured by the tiger, he got fined something like twenty thousand. That's about as crippling as fines get.. I would have just said he learned his lesson when a tiger almost killed him but there you go.. You'd be fined under the same law. Scary.
IMO, having a venomous snake as a pet is really stupid. It's like "Instead of owning a rifle for hunting deer, I'm going to own that rifle AND keep it loaded AND leave the safety off and always hold it with the business end toward myself".

Not worth it.

Also--- this thread is about garter snakes and a very very mild poison they have. This poison is the equivalent of a large case of beer for a toad. They become extremely dopey, confused, and helpless. We're not talking about proper venom from a viper that literally rips your body apart from the inside out. look up pictures of viper bites. Even if you get antivenom immediately, the necrosis you can get is horrible. You can lose a hand- or end up with one so deformed it becomes useless. That's if you don't die a horrible painful death by the way which is entirely possible.

It's literally owning a loaded gun aimed backwards as a pet. There are too many snakes you can buy legally that won't kill you. Don't do it.