My BP hates me!

[clmclark]

Ok so I know she's an animal and rationally it's not personal... but I swear she hates me. I finally have her eating but unless I take her out when she's hiding she's really snippy. Aside from feeding her I don't handle her at all. I wanted to wait until she's eating routinely before I start handling her. She hasn't gotten me yet but she's tried a few times now and I'm a little gun shy. She's still small so I know she can't do any serious damage but I'm finding get nervous when I try to pick her up. A little jumpy even. I still love having her and happy that I got her. I just want to make her happy and eventually be able to handle her. I'm pretty patient and in no rush.

Generally she hides in her humidity box. Half the time she pokes her head out and lays it on this lid. I initially thought it was cute but now I fear she's just on the defensive. She has 3 hides and room to get under her water dish for another one. She climbs at night, especially when she's hungry.

I am looking for any advice on how to make her happy and not strike at me. Or is that just something I have to get used to?

Her temps are where they should be hot side/cool side. Aside from trains going by she's relatively undisturbed.

[Lankyrob]

She will pick up on your nervousness - when you pick her up do it in one smooth movement, no jerky half hearted movements or that will make her more likely to strike.

Over a couple of months of gentle handling and you increasing in confidence you will find that she should settle down to being handled - she will always be a wild animal tho so if she does get you remember the Bite Club Thread and ensure you get pictures!!

[Reptile_Reptile]

be calm and dont make any jerky movements. a lot of their predators come from the sky and your a big red dot. my advice is go to petco and get a snake hook and hook your snake out of the tank and that should eliminate a lot of stress and overall problems. hope i helped

[kenchenzo]

The more you feed her & don't handle her the worse she will get. As said don't make any sudden movements. She I scared as well. I would strongly suggest using a hook to move her & aid in getting her out. The bites don't heft anyway mate.
Good luck.

[citysnakes]

she will calm down on her own if you just give her some time. i wouldnt handle her if she clearly finds it a stressful event because doing so may just work against what your trying to do.

[kenchenzo]

she will calm down on her own if you just give her some time. i wouldnt handle her if she clearly finds it a stressful event because doing so may just work against what your trying to do.

I do agree with that but if she is only handled when she is fed then will never learn to trust.
I leave lizards alone and let them learn to trust me in there vivs because I am in them almost daily.

[Lankyrob]

is her viv front opening or top opening? Top opening vivs can cause problems where the giant hand comes toward the snake from the sky and in this case a hook could be helpful. My vivs are all front opening so i try to come at the snake at its level rather than above.

[Aaron_S]

The more you feed her & don't handle her the worse she will get. As said don't make any sudden movements. She I scared as well. I would strongly suggest using a hook to move her & aid in getting her out. The bites don't heft anyway mate.
Good luck.

I personally disagree with this. I have bought a number of ball pythons and some were very gentle from the start and some just had to settle in and grow up a bit more. I don't have any that "snap" outright. I have only one snake who isn't a baby that still is very skittish, she's never tried to bite me.

I would go with what Julian said. Just keep feeding her and growing and she'll start to calm down once she's no longer very small.

[clmclark]

She's currently in a front opening tank. I was advised that it's not best as it's just as tall as it is wide... but I do try to approach her from the side rather than from above. I have another tank that I plan to move her too eventually (again, when she's eating regularly). But that one opens from the top. :( Not sure if I should keep her in her current- she seems to like to climb.

She was born in June so still fairly young.

My intention was to get her eating on a regular basis before I handle her. Having her eat is a higher priority to me than handling her. I haven't wanted to stress her out by handling, for fear she wont eat. Once she's eating I planned to start slowly handling her.

She didn't eat last week so I imagine she's hungry again. I'm pissy when I'm hungry too.

I like the idea of a hook. Well, I don't like it. I would LIKE if she liked me. But I appreciate the suggestions. Keep 'em coming. All I want is a happy snake.

Do any of you think the "peek a boo" behavior is abnormal? Half the time she has her head poking out of her humidity box. Not sure if she's on alert, hunting or just naturally curious.

[dshin963]

Do any of you think the "peek a boo" behavior is abnormal? Half the time she has her head poking out of her humidity box. Not sure if she's on alert, hunting or just naturally curious.
Mine does this too I am also curious as to why..

[clmclark]

Did some more research:
Peek-A-Boo!
Take notice of your ball python when you approach its tank or cage. They will oftentimes peek out at you or extend their heads somewhat to get a better visual. This behavior can mean that the ball python is hungry (believe it or not). Our ball pythons let us know when they want to feed by exhibiting this type of behavior. When either I or one of our staff members approach a cage, we look for this type of body language gesture. It’s very apparent if we bring a bucket full of rats or mice in the room or have just fed the animal. Some ball pythons will eat more than one food item and this simple gesture of them peeking from their hide is a pretty good indicator that they’re still hungry so we’ll offer them another meal. Once they’ve had their fair share, they will stop peeking and completely ignore us while they digest their meal (or meals).

Researchers find that Ball Pythons can actually SPEAK! (http://www.rcreptiles.com/blog/index.php/2008/04/09/researchers_find_that_ball_pythons_can_a)

[clmclark]

This is her peeking. She was just doing it again and skipped her dinner this week. Trying again now. I hope this means she's hungry.

[mykee]

You are correct, you ball python hates you.
It will always hate you and your handling will always be a stressor.
Always.
Ball pythons, had you done your research, are very anti-social snakes.
You cannot "teach" your ball python to like you.
You cannot "teach" a ball python anything.
You ball python will also never "trust" you.
These are emotions.
Snakes don't posess the chunk of brain for emotion.
I hear dogs are better pets for someone looking to anthropomorphize.
My dogs love me.
Snakes are not dogs.

[clmclark]

You are correct, you ball python hates you.
It will always hate you and your handling will always be a stressor.
Always.
Ball pythons, had you done your research, are very anti-social snakes.
You cannot "teach" your ball python to like you.
You cannot "teach" a ball python anything.
You ball python will also never "trust" you.
These are emotions.
Snakes don't posess the chunk of brain for emotion.
I hear dogs are better pets for someone looking to anthropomorphize.
My dogs love me.
Snakes are not dogs.

I love how you assume I'm ignorant and didn't do any research. At what point did I indicate that I was looking for a dog replacement, best friend of critter to pal around with? Other than teasing in the title to the thread I don't see where I've personified her at all. Mentioned flat out that I'm aware she's an animal. Not a person or "trainable" creature. Simply trying to get her less stressed so she's not striking at me. I've bred, trained, showed and owned dogs my whole life but gosh, thanks for pointing out the obvious. lol. My family had a BP before so this isn't my first rodeo. This snake is much younger and the one we had before never showed signs that he had a problem with being handled. You can read until you go blind but when you learn the most from experiencing. Thats the point I'm at now. I'm assuming you didn't learn how to drive simply by reading the manual.

[Aaron_S]

I think you need to realize you've been given advice. Don't handle it. Boom! Done. Sometimes no amount of handling will change a snake.

[vendettaseve]

I love how you assume I'm ignorant and didn't do any research. At what point did I indicate that I was looking for a dog replacement, best friend of critter to pal around with? Other than teasing in the title to the thread I don't see where I've personified her at all. Mentioned flat out that I'm aware she's an animal. Not a person or "trainable" creature. Simply trying to get her less stressed so she's not striking at me. I've bred, trained, showed and owned dogs my whole life but gosh, thanks for pointing out the obvious. lol. My family had a BP before so this isn't my first rodeo. This snake is much younger and the one we had before never showed signs that he had a problem with being handled. You can read until you go blind but when you learn the most from experiencing. Thats the point I'm at now. I'm assuming you didn't learn how to drive simply by reading the manual.


No talking back to they Mykee.



I hope your problem improves. As many have said Im sure with some time your snake will identify you as not being a threat and relax a bit more. As I hope is the case with my own when I get them.

[Damion930]

Every creature that is capable of forming habits and responding to stimulus is "trainable" using Skinner and Pavlovian psychology the trainable abilitys are limited to the response given for specific stimuli.

[Damion930]

Id fully agree with kenchenzo exept you seem to have a rather skittish snake. Citys advice is sound allow the snake to settle and grow out of its natural skittish young behavior becoming more accustom to your presence in its environment through feeding and water changes and cage cleaning limiting the stress brought on by handeling. Aaron S is ofcourse right that it may never change. Let your snake settle then work on weather or not you can hold it. Best of luck

[emilybier]

There are more reasons for wanting a calm snake than "palling around". He mentioned that both he and the snake are skittish around each other and being able to keep things stress free enough to take it out for cleanings or treatments can be important for some people, especially when it is a snake that has proven to be more handleable than others. That reaction would be a little more appropriate for an aggressive, delicate, or potentially dangerous species, and I would have agreed.

Like Damion and others, I would advise to let it settle, get a little bigger. The snake hook is a brilliant idea. She may come around, give her time!

[Damion930]

I can agree with that. I think in this case a routine of limited handeling during cleaning and treatments would help build confidence in the handeler and comfort in the snake. I think the point that everyone is trying to get across is that you can't force it and doing so could cause more harm than good and he is going to need to learn to be more confident and exept he may be bit. Mabey even setting a scheduled holding time once a week or every two could be in order this would allow time to build confidence for each upcoming event.

[clmclark]

I appreciate almost everyone's comments. Thank you for being there for the newbie and being respectful, again- most of you. :) I truly love this forum and that there is a source for help or simply support when needed.
I have the answers I need so again thank you so much. Was simply looking for some input so that I am able to have a less stressed snake. I am in no rush to handle her on a regular basis for "entertainment" purposes, if I do at all. Simply looking to be able to move her to feed, clean and water. I will look into getting a hook to use while I gain my own confidence with her and allow her to grow up and settle in a bit more.
Main concern is that she eats. If I am trying to move her to feed and she's striking, then I know she is stressed- therefore less likely to eat. For the most part I only go in there when she's in her humitdy box. I tidy up, and clean/refresh her water then. I clean and replace the moss while she's feeding so she goes into a clean box. Just the feeding issue. Thanks again guys! :)

[mykee]

"If I am trying to move her to feed and she's striking, then I know she is stressed- therefore less likely to eat."
Wrong.
A "strikey' ball python in my experiences, make for GREAT eaters. I prefer my balls to hate me and love food and not the other way around.

[mykee]

"Every creature that is capable of forming habits and responding to stimulus is "trainable" using Skinner and Pavlovian psychology the trainable abilitys are limited to the response given for specific stimuli. "
Lol...snake psychology...
I prefer hard facts:
A snakes brain is very similar to a bird's brain but the snakes brain lacks the enlarged cerebral hemispheres found in birds and mammals. The cerebral hemispheres are the part of the brain which contains the ability to learn. With the absence of the cerebral hemispheres, it is correct to say that snakes aren't very intelligent.

[infernalis]

Every creature that is capable of forming habits and responding to stimulus is "trainable" using Skinner and Pavlovian psychology the trainable abilitys are limited to the response given for specific stimuli.


No disrespect, but I have a great rebuttal I simply must post.

There are many cases of snakes getting burned on unprotected heat sources, multiple times, not just once.

If that creature was capable of learning from the pain stimuli, then why on earth would it continue to burn itself?

Think about it, if I touched you with a soldering iron once, would you allow me to do it again?

I personally own snakes that have tried to escape periodically for years, if they could "comprehend" they would have gave up long ago because they would have "learned" that the cage has no way out.

These creatures have very rudimentary brains, they are genetically pre-programmed with necessary instincts.

However one cannot deny basic curiosity, however that is also the survival instinct that was pre-programmed via DNA as they cannot flee a predator unless they look to see if it is in fact a predator.

[Reptile_Reptile]

they cannot flee a predator unless they look to see if it is in fact a predator.
hell i bet most snakes wouldnt even run ive seen quite a few snakes just sit there and get taken out.

[infernalis]

hell i bet most snakes wouldnt even run ive seen quite a few snakes just sit there and get taken out.

Yep, now there is a sign of "intelligence" eh :rolleyes:

[Reptile_Reptile]

i dont think you can gauge a snake in intelligence because they run off instinct. plus they seem stupid to me they are just majestic ^_^

[Damion930]

Yeah ill agree after I posted that I thought to myself what actual habits do any of my snakes have. They truly seem to be creatures of action and reaction they respond to direct stimuli rather than any kind of learned response. If at all possible it would probably take a considerable amount of time exposed to the stimulus to acheve a conditioned response. Now you have me very curious see my retic appears to favor me over others but im wondering is it recognition or is he somehow responding to my demeanor...the vibe I give off. Does anyone have an example of what seems to be a learned response to outside stimulus. Oh and very good point with the lamps Wayne.

[citysnakes]

on feeding night, after the lights go out and the snake room has been pre-scented with frozen, thawing rodents, most of my ball pythons are seen in the striking position at the front of their tub awaiting their meals.

that seems like a conditioned response to me so i would assume that ball pythons have some capacity for learning.

[citysnakes]

hell i bet most snakes wouldnt even run ive seen quite a few snakes just sit there and get taken out.

i would assume that animals that rely heavily on camouflage or crypsis rarely run from a predator as doing so would completely contradict the evolution of such a defense and therefore a snake's intelligence cannot be gauged due to a behaviour that you may not completely understand.

[mykee]

"that seems like a conditioned response to me so i would assume that ball pythons have some capacity for learning"
There are decades of hard science that prove you totally wrong.
It's nice to think that though.
As an egotistical species, we as humans find it hard to comprehend with our limited mental faculties that we would keep pets for our amusement that are dumber than us.

[infernalis]

on feeding night, after the lights go out and the snake room has been pre-scented with frozen, thawing rodents, most of my ball pythons are seen in the striking position at the front of their tub awaiting their meals.

that seems like a conditioned response to me so i would assume that ball pythons have some capacity for learning.

No disrespect Julian, I have seen this with my Royal, and my colubrids.

They are responding to scent, another pre-progammed response.

It's most apparent with my Garters, bring a stinky trout into the room, they all start looking for food.

They are responding to the scent in the air, nothing more.

My hand looks nothing like a fish, tastes nothing like a fish, but if I touch a fish and then open a garter snake viv, I am going to bleed for sure, it's unavoidable.

Even my sweetest most docile ladies will try to eat my hand when they smell fish.

[emilybier]

Yeah ill agree after I posted that I thought to myself what actual habits do any of my snakes have. They truly seem to be creatures of action and reaction they respond to direct stimuli rather than any kind of learned response. If at all possible it would probably take a considerable amount of time exposed to the stimulus to acheve a conditioned response. Now you have me very curious see my retic appears to favor me over others but im wondering is it recognition or is he somehow responding to my demeanor...the vibe I give off. Does anyone have an example of what seems to be a learned response to outside stimulus. Oh and very good point with the lamps Wayne.

Now that is an interesting topic. My leos always seemed to recognize me. After checking for hand warmth and finding them the same, me and a friend handled my guys. They laid flat on my hand and raised on their feet on his hand. This was the same outcome with several other people and myself. I know I've heard somewhere that Iguanas recognize the sound of their keepers voice. There was some big study on it, I can't find the link to the article. Wonder if it is the same with snakes? Maybe recognition of a heat signature? Or are their brains just as different from lizard species? I've never noticed it with my ball python.

[infernalis]

Lizards have bigger brains..

[Damion930]

I still believe ther must be some conditional response for example go in the wild pick up a wild retic your most likely getting bit and it will try and get away. Reach in my tank and he wont do ither. This must be a learned behavior or they would just bit and never be able to be held. Ther is an easy test to check if they have the capacity to be conditioned you simply need the existance of a unconditional stimulus that elicits an unconditional response in the subject. The ucr is usually a physiological response that can be caused by an ucs for example pupil constriction is an ucr caused by light hitting the eye this is the ucs. We also need a cs a stimulus of which the subject can be made aware but which initially does not cause the ucr. The cs is presented in several trials followed closely by the ucs causing the ucr. After several times of blowing the whistle while shining a light in the eye you should if conditioning is possible be able to blow the whisle and cause a cr pupil constriction. It would be very interesting to know for sure if snakes can be conditioned at all though now that im thinking about it can they hear a whistle lol.

[citysnakes]

There are decades of hard science that prove you totally wrong.
It's nice to think that though.
As an egotistical species, we as humans find it hard to comprehend with our limited mental faculties that we would keep pets for our amusement that are dumber than us.

and i may be completely wrong but the fact is that conditioning is a form of learning and if a response can be conditioned in a ball python then it has some capacity for learning.

but thanks Mike, here i was thinking my ball python enjoys watching tv with me....:rolleyes:


No disrespect Julian, I have seen this with my Royal, and my colubrids.

They are responding to scent, another pre-progammed response.

It's most apparent with my Garters, bring a stinky trout into the room, they all start looking for food.

They are responding to the scent in the air, nothing more.

My hand looks nothing like a fish, tastes nothing like a fish, but if I touch a fish and then open a garter snake viv, I am going to bleed for sure, it's unavoidable.

Even my sweetest most docile ladies will try to eat my hand when they smell fish.

Wayne i completely agree with you in that the scent of food in the air will trigger a feeding response in hungry animals. obviously this is only natural.

what may be conditioned is the tendency to take position at the very front of their tubs ready to strike at anything coming in when it opens. i dont see many of my balls positioned at the back or side of their tubs waiting to strike in a random direction. the majority of my hungry ball pythons are ready to strike in the direction of where their food always appears and thats wherever the enclosure is opened.

this is just an observation of mine and maybe others with much larger collections than mine dont observe this but my observation tells me that these animals remember the direction of where their food comes from or are conditioned to position themselves in a direction where food is most likely to be located after picking up its scent.

if they where to randomly be positioned in their tubs waiting for food to come from any direction then i would believe that no form of learning has occurred but based on my limited observations i believe this not to be the case.

as i said i could be wrong but many believe some form of conditioning can occur in ball pythons and the debate will continue i guess...

[Damion930]

Nice city I like the directon thing unless the sent comes strongest from the direction of the front of the enclosure lol. But, positioning and facing the direction the food comes from when they get a sent would most definitely seem to be a cr.

[infernalis]

One thing about this discussion that has made me wonder, I have snakes here that would never touch a pinkie unless I rubbed fish on it first, then eventually I could quit scenting, what's up with that?

[TeaNinja]

One thing about this discussion that has made me wonder, I have snakes here that would never touch a pinkie unless I rubbed fish on it first, then eventually I could quit scenting, what's up with that?

i'm sure it'd smell like both pinky AND fish, so they'd eventually expect that food is supposed to smell like pinky also. that would be my assumtion.

[Damion930]

It would seem Wayne that the fish smell would be your ucs eating fish sented food your ucr pinky smell your cs. Eventualy you remove the ucs and the cs causes a cr. Ther could ofcourse be other factors but that would seem to be the way it works out. Very interesting stuff

[Damion930]

Very interestingSnakes Show Surprising Capacity for Learning (http://www.rochester.edu/pr/releases/bcs/snake.htm)

[zer213]

I had a grey rat snake that was ALWAYS pissy with me. She never grew out of that.
ANYWHO my bp was a bit sketchy at first but shes warmed up nicely over a few months. Couple of things I do, I handle her at night when she is awake as opposed to waking her up, I dont approach her head as she is still head-shy, and I only hold her gently by the middle and let her decide where she wants to roam around on my hand/arm.
After a few seconds of holding her she will get comfy and start wriggling around, invariably she will end up inside my shirt or trying to bury herself in whatever im sitting on (sheets, couch cushions, laundry).
Keep trying, dont give up.