larger bodied snakes and uth

[Damion930]

So just came across this in another thread and instead of high jacking I figured id start a new thread. Someone posted not to use heat mats with large bodied snakes because of thermal blocking the idea being heat will be blocked and build causing overheating. As I keep Enki my retic and use a uth it made me kinda curious as I am aware of other large snake owners that use them. What are your thoughts.

[Jenn_06]

i use uth with my retics and burm and dont see how its going to overheat if you have a good thermostat that will cut off power of drop temp if it gets too hot.

[Damion930]

Those wher my thoughts to just wanted to bring it out without taking over the other thread seems as if ther has ben a lot of that happening lately

[Dave69]

Thermal blocking is a problem with larger snakes, it is something that can to a point be controlled with a stat, but, if the probe is not on the hot spot, it can be missed by it. Also, if the probe gets moved off the mat, then the stat has no control anway. The blocking happens when the heat from the mat cannot go anywhere, and it builds up, like a cumulative sort of thing, mats have been known to reach silly temps in quite a short space of time.
there have been a couple of instances that i know of, once being a large Burm, kept in a cold room, on a mat, it suffered so many burns that it had to be pts, the other being an experiment, and the mat reached 210 degrees C, subsequently its not only melted, but shorted itself and burned the table it was on, i cant provide you a link to where i saw it, because i cant remember which forum it was on!
the point is, thermal blocking happens, especially with much larger bodied snakes, and as such, i wouldnt risk it. All my boas that are in vivs have bulbs instead of mats for that reason.

[TCS-bot]

Thermal blocking can occur with heatmats even if correctly stat'd.
It's all about HOW the snake will position itself on the mat when it's probed.

If you take a mat out and stat it and plug it in and get 2 temp probes, then put something heavy on the mat with a temp probe and nothing where the stat probe and 2nd temp probe is and leave for 30 mins or so and have a look at the difference in temp.
This more so will happen with larger bodied snakes due to them apparently needing larger mats.

I did have a discussion with someone a while back about a similar thing when they tried to say "a probe for a lamp will get covered by a large snakes body" and yes it will, however larger bodied snakes instinctively know that they need to bask under the sun (or lamp) to warm up and when they get to hot, they will move.
They very rarely notice that the underside of them is burning when the top of their body is fairly cool, which is why thermal blocking burns can occur.

/edited to add:

I have a 4ft heatmat that I *could* use in a large viv with a larger bodied snake, if the stat probe is in the middle of the mat and the snake sits more on one end, then that section will get hotter. Mats (or UTH) work via contact heat.

[Damion930]

Curious are you saying how the snake positons its self on the matt as in direct contact with the matt

[Glasgow Corns]

my comments on the other thread, as assume it was on the boa thread you saw the thermal blocking, are in relation to heat mats, in the UK the heat mats are placed within the wooden vivs with a covering of substrate. My understanding on UTH is that they are placed below the tank hence the name under tank heaters, so apologies if ive confused anyone with this translation if you will. The OP mentioned heatmats so my response was directed accordingly,

And agree with tcs-bot, carry out the experiment its an easy experiment to do.

I have also read on another forum, as i dont use habistat heat mats, that they have a warning saying do not use heat mats with large bodies snakes as they accept that thermal blocking can occur.

not sure on posting links to other forums here but can link to a few threads on another forum if mods approve and is not against the rules

[Lankyrob]

The uk say heatat and the us say uth, both meaning tne same thing as far as i am aware from reading this forum.

[Glasgow Corns]

thanks lankyrob, in that case then yes I would not be using a UTH either with large bodied reptiles, while it may not be an overly common occurrence it is still a risk i wouldn't take with reptiles.

edit: I am not saying you must not keep your reps on mats, all im suggesting is that there is a risk to the animals health an would not personally recommend using mats

[TCS-bot]

Ah yes, neglected to think about any possibilities of a uth and mat being different, so will assume they are the same.
With mats inside a wooden viv, the thermal blocking can occur with a larger bodied snake resting on a mat due to the time it takes for the heat to transfer in their bodies which is when thermal blocking burns could occur.
Smaller bodied snakes don't have that issue as they warm up a lot faster.

On glass tanks it could be different as the heat source will be under the glass, heating all the glass in it's entirety that's in contact with it, so the stat *should* still shut the power off to the heat source regardless of where the snake is in contact with it. THe only issue I can see with that is the chance that the snake might not be warmed up enough so will have to wait for the next power cycle of the stat, unless pulse stat'd of course.

[Damion930]

Ah gottcha that makes sence. I think the same warning is found on the lable here in regards to direct contact and weight being an issue. Its always ben my understanding that it is risky for ther to be the possibility of direct contact with any heat source. I think most have some form of separation between the uth heat matt or other not letting the weight or snake itself to rest on the matt.

[infernalis]

because you put the mat under the tank.

Hence UTH - Under Tank Heater

[Jendee]

because you put the mat under the tank.

Hence UTH - Under Tank Heater

LOL! I was thinkin the same thing"..ummm..guys" you never want to put a heat source in the cage with your animal, one of the main reasons heat rocks went out of style. Its important that you put the uth under the cage..for tubs its safe to be directly on the flexx watt but on cages you want to put feet on the cage so the flexx watt can breath and doesn't trap heat under the cage to burn up.
I have large boas some up to 7 ft. I have always used uth (flexx watt with a ranco) and have never had a problem.

again..never put the heat source in with your animals :)

[TCS-bot]

Never put the heat source in with the animals???

In that case would it be wise for me to remove my heatlamps out of my vivs?
Would the heatmats still function through 18mm thick contiboard??
Looks like I shall have to have a total rethink of of my stack, and while I'm at it, I should remove the radiator from the kitchen where the dogs sleep, the heat tube from the fishy tanks and the fireplace from in the lounge where the cat sleeps.


I'm sorry (not really) for seemingly taking the pee a bit with the above phrasing, but if someone could tell me then how the jimmy to use an heatmat and show that it works in a wooden viv without putting it inside the viv, then I will listen.

[infernalis]

Never put the heat source in with the animals???

In that case would it be wise for me to remove my heatlamps out of my vivs?
Would the heatmats still function through 18mm thick contiboard??
Looks like I shall have to have a total rethink of of my stack, and while I'm at it, I should remove the radiator from the kitchen where the dogs sleep, the heat tube from the fishy tanks and the fireplace from in the lounge where the cat sleeps.


I'm sorry (not really) for seemingly taking the pee a bit with the above phrasing, but if someone could tell me then how the jimmy to use an heatmat and show that it works in a wooden viv without putting it inside the viv, then I will listen.


Isn't it customary if you have a wooden viv (or boaphile cage) to place a tile or something over the mat?

Just asking.

[Damion930]

Some ppl use tile or cement bord or both I've also heard of ppl having succes placing it directly under 3/4 inch plywood or placing a framed peice of glass temperd plexi or other over it. Ther should be a form of ventalation as most need air flow to properly regulate. Ther are several options some you can find in ppls cage builds in the enclosure forum. Id have more for you but haven't actually built mine yet but I have read about a million cage build pages lol

[Damion930]

I guess that is going in the viv though lol in a lot of cases but in a way wher ther isn't going to be pressure placed on it more important obviously with larger snakes

[Isaac's Ark]

Never put the heat source in with the animals???

In that case would it be wise for me to remove my heatlamps out of my vivs?
Would the heatmats still function through 18mm thick contiboard??

Yes & Yes

You see snakes are rater stupid creatures if any heat source be it a UTH/Heat Matt (from what I can tell is the same only the application being different) or a heat lamp your animals should never be able to physically touch the source. I like a warm summer day I would also appreciate not shaking the suns hand. For instance I once witnessed a Chondro Python choose to perch on the accessible heat lamp that was turned off via timer once the lamp came on in the event of a temp drop the animal never moved and baked it's self, same problem seen in hot rocks and yes internally placed heat pads. We are some what off in reguards to why these peices of equipment are actually being used. we will hear people go on and on about how reptiles are cold blooded and require external heat sources to survive. All in all it sound close enough to the truth but the truth is a touch more complex then that. Reptiles are thermal regulators that require a heat gradient threw out their enclosures in order to thrive this is why the UTH works so well once under the cage it will create a hot spot of course but it will also create a warm spot not to far from the hot spot and the further the animal is from the location of the heat source the cooler the floor gets and presto instant heat gradient threw out the floor of the cage. This will then translate into a warm atmospheric enclosure complete with proper heat gradients. If no choice is available and the UTH must be installed in the enclosure then covering the entire floor with tile or Plexiglas is also a proper way to promote a heat gradient. As long as something is between the large body of the snake and the UTH the snake can not smother the heat pad and create this blockage that has been mentioned since the pad is heating the floor and not the snake.

Hope this helped

Isaac's Ark

[TCS-bot]

I shall go remove the heat lamps from my beardie vivs, and my chameleon tanks now then.

As it stands though anyone in their right mind who uses a lamp in a snakes viv without sensible protection from the lamp, really needs to start keeping nothing but goldfish.

This thread has me puzzled now, as by all accounts some people believe that mats are the only heat source required, and that lamps shouldn't be in vivs.
What a load of rubbish, I'd like to see how the hell my beardies, plated, chameleons, even the turtle get on when I remove their lamps.

Can someone digitally sign to say that's what's been recommended then, so that my years of keeping has someone to go back to if I have problems, thanks.

[Lankyrob]

I dont think anyone mentioned taking heatlamps out of the viv - you are deliberatley exagerating what has been said to try to create some sort of issue, no idea why you would do that.

Anyone that uses heatlamps of what ever kind inside the enclosure should have the bulb guarded so that they animal cannot make direct contact with the heat source.

[Jenn_06]

if you have a heatlamps in the cages you need this so the snake will not get burned.
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o284/joejenn06/BfO4ongWkKGrHqIH-D4ErefeUnBLbZsYYg_3.jpg

[Sapphyr]

Exactly what Rob said about you blowing this out of proportion, seemingly on purpose, and what Jenn said about the lamp guard.

We're saying UNGUARDED heat sources are dangerous to your reptile since it could climb, slither, jump, etc. onto the heat source and potentially burn themselves lightly, if not severely. I'd certainly hope you wouldn't want to take the chance of even lightly burning any of your pets. Animals aren't the brightest creatures around and don't always make the best decisions for themselves. It's our responsibility as responsible owners to try and reduce the risks of them injuring themselves as much as possible.

And since you seem to enjoy taking someone's words and blowing it out of proportion, I don't mean doing things such as not letting your dog outside because it can break its bones or some crap. I'm mostly talking in reference to the reptiles, not your dog, not your cat, not your fish. Don't try and take my words and twist them. Use some common sense. I'm sure you know exactly what I mean.

[Damion930]

It was mentioned that heat sources not be kept in cages but the intention I belive was unguarded or heat sources wher the animal can come in direct contact with said heat source no need to get all upety with your vast experience u claim to have u should understand this

[sassy_snake_lady]

Yes & Yes

You see snakes are rater stupid creatures if any heat source be it a UTH/Heat Matt (from what I can tell is the same only the application being different) or a heat lamp your animals should never be able to physically touch the source.

Isaac's Ark

I have heat mats inside vivs??

They are statted but they are unguarded so the snakes can lay straight on them. Thats not a problem unless the snake is heavy bodied. All my corns have heat mats inside the vivs.

[Isaac's Ark]

I shall go remove the heat lamps from my beardie vivs, and my chameleon tanks now then.

As it stands though anyone in their right mind who uses a lamp in a snakes viv without sensible protection from the lamp, really needs to start keeping nothing but goldfish.

This thread has me puzzled now, as by all accounts some people believe that mats are the only heat source required, and that lamps shouldn't be in vivs.
What a load of rubbish, I'd like to see how the hell my beardies, plated, chameleons, even the turtle get on when I remove their lamps.

This holds no water in this thread considering the thread is in regards to LARGE BODIED SNAKES not turtles or lizards I understand that simply responding to this may feed the drama mill I would like sSnakeSs.com members to know that Isaac's Ark stands by all advise ever released here on a public forum although we may not reference many source materials a lot of our husbandry advice stems from personal experience. We are herpaculturalists not herpetologist we make no claim that our techniques are the absolute way that things should be it is just how things are ran here and have yet to fail us our animals are healthy eating,drinking, growing, shedding & breeding :) this is why we feel some advice we offer may help people by all means do it your way nothing you do affects our Ark so have it my friend.

Cheers folks

Isaac's Ark

[TCS-bot]

My apols on going WAY off topic in regards removing heatlamps, it was mentioned on the previous page that someone suggested not having a heat source in with the animals, and further up this page where someone said 'Yes' when I said "shall I remove heatlamps from my vivs".

Think that heatlamps should still be included in this thread though as they are (IMO) much better for larger bodied snakes than mats because of the same reasons I have already stated on this thread.

[Sapphyr]

I'm sure Jendee meant don't use unguarded heat sources in with you're reptiles. Animals is a general term. I'm sure you knew exactly what she meant, you just took it into its most technical and literal terms. I have no idea why.

[Jendee]

This thread is so crazy to me..every breeder I know uses..and every reptile person Ive ever talked to in the past 20 yrs lol uses under tank heating for all size reptiles. I have boas and blood pythons. One of my female blood pythons weighs 40+ Ibs. I have never had a problem with a uth..ever!! They need belly heat to digest properly. What is being used?? I use Flexx watt, what kind are or brand is being dicussed in this thread??
what TCS-bot stated about snakes not knowing if there getting burned on there belly is crap!! All of my heavy bodied animals move from cold side to hot side when wanted/needed. Maybe you guys have opened topped aquaruims which isnt wise for large bodied snakes..and the heat escapes the top of the cage which is why you would state that there top half wouldn't get heated with a uth. With my cages the "air" temp stays at 86, Because the uth heats up the whole cage. I dont know anybody who uses lamps on boas/pythons until this forum lol its a whole new thing to me. Infact Ive known people to make fun of "noobs" using lamps for large bodied snakes. Which isnt fair at all..we all start some where and learn eventually. When I was 14 I used a heat mat directly pasted to the bottom of my fish tank lol and a lamp..my snakes were all ****ed up...no burning..but serious humidity, shedding, eating problems. I didn't know any better..then I found the internet and the entire Bci/bcc networks and the gods shined down on me lol hallelujah lol my snakes have been in tubs or abs cages with flexwatt a t-stat and perfect temps, sheds, feedings since lol 13 yrs later!! :)

[Jendee]

I'm sure Jendee meant don't use unguarded heat sources in with you're reptiles. Animals is a general term. I'm sure you knew exactly what she meant, you just took it into its most technical and literal terms. I have no idea why.


yes sorry, Im a strictly boa/python girl..i tend to assume everyone else is lol out of habit of going to strictly boa/python forums.
But this thread is stated as "large bodied snakes"...sooo I would assume that my earlier assumpution was spot on lol

Heat pads, heat rocks, heat rope, heat tape, heat emitters, heat lamps should never be in your tank with your boa/python!
Ive seen people use heat emitters because there temps dont get high enough due to where they live, my answer to this is make sure its in a guard (even the guard can get hot enough to burn mind you) or get a space heater...20 bucks at your local walmart lol raise the room temp to 80 degrees voila!! :)

[TCS-bot]

I wonder if there seems to be a sort of country divide in regards differences in knowledge/recommendations.

From what I've always known (and heard from many other keepers in this country) mat heating has always been the recommended and prefered for smaller bodied snakes, but larger bodied snakes have always been recommended to use heating from above (ceramic, lamp etc) or an AHS.

[Jendee]

I wonder if there seems to be a sort of country divide in regards differences in knowledge/recommendations.

From what I've always known (and heard from many other keepers in this country) mat heating has always been the recommended and prefered for smaller bodied snakes, but larger bodied snakes have always been recommended to use heating from above (ceramic, lamp etc) or an AHS.

I think there is 100% because once you pointed this out I realized that all of my other places are 98% our U.S people.
Humm thats interesting.

[Jendee]

you know you Uk guys should sooo find a plastics place and start making abs or pvc cages!! its cheap to make and you would easly make a killing out there!!! tons of money!!
way better then wood or glass..you know like the U.S has boaphiles or prolines. All my cages are prolines..made with abs...AWESOME!!
then all these heating problems would be out the window!

[Aaron_S]

Two words. Heat panels.

[Damion930]

Hm interesting kinda reminds me of a ceramic heat emiter only more coverage first I've heard of em. I guess the radiant heat would heat the tank surface providing proper belly heat and with the low surface temp no real worry of contact burns though id probly still cover them just my paranoia lol. I like the overheating safety fuse feature as well good call aaron s. But...always a but I still think a properly installed heat matt or uth or flex watt is a good way to go but I may just have to upgrade to heat panels I like the sound of them you have a good experience with them arron?

[Aaron_S]

You can mount them to the side of an enclosure as well. Granted that may not be the most ideal heating solution but we're heating a very large space. I think that's what some people do with large reptiles.