Some myths about Thamnophis dispelled

[infernalis]

Rather than repeatedly interjecting on other peoples threads, I felt it would be better to just start a discussion for the sole purpose of "setting the record straight" concerning some peoples beliefs of keeping garter snakes as captives.

I see comments made all the time that I have to resist the urge to hijack a thread to make a point...

1. They smell bad. - This is almost always based on a personal encounter with a wild garter snake that was picked up as it was trying to flee.

These small snakes have virtually no defense against predators aside from musking, Whenever any colubrid feels threatened it will emit a foul smelling fluid in an attempt to gross out the predator, they will perceive you as a predator when you just reach down and pick one up off the ground.

My captives rarely musk me, unless I screw up and spook them. And quite honestly, I would rather wash my hands than bleed from a python bite.

2. They are boring. - I have to disagree here, They are the most active snake you could hope for as a "pet" and will move around in their environment and swim in the water bowl, climb up on on things and pace the cage often staring out at whatever is going on in the room around them.

3. Nothing special to look at. - Once upon a time I thought so too, However there are so many morphs and sub species available that one could spend a lifetime trying to see them all in person. and how many non venomous blue snakes can you ever find regardless of species?? (anyone can purchase a blue garter snake for around $100)

Gartersnakes (http://www.thamnophis.net) - some stunning morphs in my collection ;)

4. Never house multiple snakes in one cage. - This is about the only exception to that rule. The population densities in the wild are normally so thick that these snakes can quite often be found in the wild sharing space and resources. Nearly every Thamnophis keeper I know keeps them in multiples per cage, this reduces costs and space requirements drastically. Each year when I get a new batch of babies, either from my breeder friends or from litters I produce myself, The whole litter only requires one tank for about the first year.

5. Garter Snakes are for children and beginners. - I hear this one a lot, and nothing could be further from the truth. Once upon a time garter snakes were gathered up off the ground and sold in pet stores for $5 each, so people never took them seriously.

If you purchase a morph from a breeder, you are buying a delicate little baby snake no bigger than a pencil and your new baby will require that you feed it 2-3 times a week, and you will be chopping up the food, since they are so small. Or setting up a guppy tank so you can keep feeder fish handy.


Other perks - If you just don't have much space, one to three males can spend their entire life in a ten gallon aquarium, females do nicely in a 20 gallon, and since they do not require "jungle" or "rain forest" humidity levels, an aquarium with a mesh top does fine for housing.

If you don't want a snake that eats mice, these are perfect, Even though we can "condition them" to eat mice, their natural diet is primarily earth worms, fish and amphibians. So if you are one of those soft hearted types that cannot sacrifice a mouse to feed your snakes, A garter can be kept for it's entire life by feeding it fish.

No "extra" heat source is required.. These snakes live from Alaska to Mexico, they have a very wide range of tolerance to temperatures, They do enjoy a nice basking spot, but their overall health will not deteriorate at all if they do not have one.

I'm sure I will think of others, in the meantime feel free to ask any questions.

[marvelfreak]

Very nice myth busting Wayne. Can't wait to hear more.

[Ch^4]

Great addition to the forum Wayne! I really loved Sky (RIP) and someday I might have to snag one....you just can't beat a blue snake! Maybe an expensive blue phase GTP?

[CanadianEryx]

Thanks, Wayne! My first experience with snakes was with garters and, when I took on the role of "Professor MegaNoggin" in our church's vacation bible school program a few summers ago I definitely included a garter in my lab. The kids were completely fascinated, especially since this was in a small town in Ontario where these same kids could find (and not be afraid of) garters around their homes on a regular basis. I love garters and the variety of colors they come in. I can't imagine anyone having a problem with them being pets--if my husband would allow me to, I'd fill an entire room with them!!

[infernalis]

I just added number 5 to the list... thanks for reading folks ;)

[Shmoges]

My earliest memory of snakes has to be of the garter snake. I remember catching them by the hand full and getting stinky all over and loving it lol. I remember saving countless toads from the death garters, I hope now in retrospect I wasn't hurting the garters. Stupid toads I wish I had helped the snakes now that I think about it. I remember being like 17 and a large garter was periscoping its head up through the grass and we saw each other and the fearless beast cam eat me and I was genuinely scared and walked briskly away lol.

[Damion930]

Though I don't keep them garters are my fave they bring back great childhood memories a friend of mine and I made it a goal to catch as many as we could one day and made it in the local paper for catching over a hundred lil guys great fun

[infernalis]

I saw a picture on the Internet and suddenly found myself parting with $260 for one snake, I simply had to have one. Then another & another...

It was a picture of one of these. I will be breeding her with a snow albino this spring.

http://www.ssnakess.info/stump/masubi3.jpg

[Sapphyr]

I saw a picture on the Internet and suddenly found myself parting with $260 for one snake, I simply had to have one. Then another & another...

It was a picture of one of these. I will be breeding her with a snow albino this spring.

http://www.ssnakess.info/stump/masubi3.jpg

Oh wow! I really want to see pics of the outcome between those two~ I'm sure you'll have some interesting looking babies :>

[guidofatherof5]

Great thread Wayne.

[infernalis]

Thanks Steve

[Reptile_Reptile]

amazing stuff Wayne thanks!

[infernalis]

bump.... thread was lost behind many others.

[lady_bug87]

I think over the time I have been on here you have converted me... especially with the whole communal tank thing... I think when my Boa grows out of her enclosure I will be making it a Garter enclosure she is in a 20 gal now because shes so small

[infernalis]

You can put a couple in there, just make sure they are same sex, or breeding will occur.

[alessia55]

Question: do they need a heat mat?

[infernalis]

Not at all.

They live outside as far north as lower Alaska.

I just keep mine at room temps, have done so for years.

[alessia55]

Hmmm... so how many can I have in a 10gal? :p

Does their diet have to be varied? Or can they survive on f/t chunks of fish as I've seen on some of your photos? How often do they eat?

[alessia55]

So I'm googling garter snakes and ran across this morph... AMAZING! I had no idea garter snakes could look like this:
http://gartersnakemorph.com/images/piebaldeasterngarter1.jpg
Pied female eastern garter by Chuck Hurd (gartersnakemorph.com)

[infernalis]

That specimen died sweetie.

It was to this date, the ONLY pied garter ever discovered that looked like that.

The upside is one litter was sired, and I know who has the offspring, so there is a remote chance that new babies may one day become available.

[infernalis]

Hmmm... so how many can I have in a 10gal? :p

Does their diet have to be varied? Or can they survive on f/t chunks of fish as I've seen on some of your photos? How often do they eat?

They can be kept on strictly pinkies once they grow, at birth they are entirely too small.

I feed most all of my adults on rat pinkies, I feed most all juveniles on XS mice pinks.

I give them trout to help save some money, I rarely give them night crawlers just because worms digest so fast.

and they eat constantly, unlike larger snakes, these are hyper active, they burn a lot of calories, it's like they all have ADHD, they seldom sit still, and are easily distracted.

[alessia55]

Do they move too fast to be handled then? Are they constantly trying to run away?

How many can you house in a 10gal?

Thanks for all your answers Wayne!

[infernalis]

Do they move too fast to be handled then? Are they constantly trying to run away?

How many can you house in a 10gal?

Thanks for all your answers Wayne!


Babies can be kept in a 10 gallon just fine, but when they grow up, they need a 20 long or better to move around in.

Forget handling males, it's very rare to have a docile (calm) male.

Females on the other hand, most are real sweethearts that will tolerate handling just fine.

[lady_bug87]

You can put a couple in there, just make sure they are same sex, or breeding will occur.


if breeding is the worst that will happen I am not too concerned lol can they be in the same tank and still be different colour morphs?

[infernalis]

Yes, and the same (sub) species.

In other words, if you put a Thamnophis Radix in with a Thamnophis Sirtalis, you will get hybrids that no one wants.

The garter snake people are purists, I have seen people post about euthanizing entire litters because of accidental crossings.

I have one such "Mutt" in my collection, I offered to take him to save his life, because once again, the litter was going to get "put down" otherwise.

The young man who housed the snakes together posted on another forum, and many of the members suggested killing the babies, several of us took the babies off his hands to prevent them from getting euthanized.

I keep mine in same sex groups on purpose for that reason.

With the exception of one Radix pair that breed as often as they want.

[lady_bug87]

o my... dually noted thanks I could NEVER kill the babies if no one wanted them I would keep them myself

but the same sex of more than one sub-species would be ok... right?

[infernalis]

o my... dually noted thanks I could NEVER kill the babies if no one wanted them I would keep them myself

but the same sex of more than one sub-species would be ok... right?

Yes, it's fine.

I keep Ebony and Ivory together.. The all black melanistic is a male T. Sirtalis, and the all white one is a T. Radix snow.

[lady_bug87]

lol ok.

In case you can't tell I love interesting display animals thats why my Lacertas are my favourite because they are so active and so curious and when I can I will hold back a couple hatchlings and make them a lacerta heaven, my green tree is also a fantastic display animal and I am hoping when my 20 is free to add a lovely garter display to my collection

[redsided]

I think they do better with a heat LAMP then anything else, mat, or nothing. I think they benefit from it. But they can go without it fine.

[redsided]

Garters... now you guys will never be have enough! You have been assimilated!!

[lady_bug87]

Garters... now you guys will never be have enough! You have been assimilated!!


ha its true I'm going to be addicted to yet another species

[infernalis]

Garters... now you guys will never be have enough! You have been assimilated!!


A borg fan?

[alessia55]

All this talk has made me really think about getting garters... though I really shouldn't... :rolleyes:

[TeaNinja]

resistance is futile..

[redsided]

None can resist!

[alessia55]

Redsided's avatar doesn't help either... so darn cute ><

[Lankyrob]

For the first time ever i saw a Garter in real life this week, they have one for sale in the reptile shop that i use. £95? Is that a good price for one?

[redsided]

How much is that in dollars? what kind of garter?

[infernalis]

Around 175 dollars..

Better be sanfrans.

I know the market there is different, but my Infernalis' are around $200 each.

[jaleely]

wow, i have to admit I have never even considered a garter snake...but i've only been into snakes since January. They sound really awesome. I'd want one i could hold every now and then though...so maybe a female. Although getting a specific sub species and breeding sounds fun!
Maybe a couple females to start out though... ;) i mean if they can be housed together, why only get one? muwahaha!
Okay i'm obsessed. 9 and counting...

infernalis...what's your recommendation on first time garter snake owners? What should we expect to spend on just a regular nice one? How expensive to morphs get, and what are the rarest kind? Any other advice? How often do you feed the juveniles...and then how often for adults? How big is the biggest one you've owned? etc., etc...I love how big their eyes are!

[Lankyrob]

How much is that in dollars? what kind of garter?

Not sure what type it was to be honest, i was too busy playing with the albino retic in the next viv to take too mUch notice, next time i go i will see ifi can get pics.

[redsided]

Not many garters are gonna be that much so I'd figure out what it is first before dropping $200.:D

[infernalis]

infernalis...what's your recommendation on first time garter snake owners? What should we expect to spend on just a regular nice one? How expensive to morphs get, and what are the rarest kind? Any other advice? How often do you feed the juveniles...and then how often for adults? How big is the biggest one you've owned? etc., etc...I love how big their eyes are!


Thamnophis Radix (plains garter snake) & Thamnophis parietalis (Red sided garter snake) are both well known for being easy going, so I would easily recommend them as a first garter to anyone.

A "regular" nice one is $50 or less, I often "give away" my extra babies to a good home provided that shipping charges are covered.

I feed my juvies every other to every third day.

The biggest one I have ever owned is my girl that I rescued from a mower last year, she's unusually large for a garter snake..

http://www.thamnophis.us/stump/tread2.jpg

http://www.thamnophis.us/stump/tread.jpg

The rarest would be any of the Mexican/Central American species, They only started showing up in US collections last year and are still pricey.

Other super rare Morphs are Silver Easterns, Albino Flames and Albino Erythristics.


http://www.ssnakess.info/critters/images/flamintote.jpg

[Kayla90]

Woo that is one sexy red snake!

[infernalis]

Woo that is one sexy red snake!

Albino Flame, First ever specimens appeared 2 years ago, and they were undoubtedly the most expensive garter snakes I have ever seen/worked with.

Now that the cross has been out for a while, and people have been breeding the hets together, the price dropped to about $300-500 depending on the degree of red.

Some people (not me) will "power feed" babies and start breeding the first year, I prefer to allow natural growth, so I won't breed until year 3 when they are truly adults.

[redsided]

I like normal flames better but that's a heck of a snake!

[Guest]

For the first time ever i saw a Garter in real life this week, they have one for sale in the reptile shop that i use. £95? Is that a good price for one?
that price is outrageous they can be found for as little as £35, if you lived closer i would have given you a young checkered garter for free but i would have to keep secret forever the fact that i helped a man united fan :eek:

[infernalis]

Welcome to our zoo mate...

[redsided]

that price is outrageous they can be found for as little as £35, if you lived closer i would have given you a young checkered garter for free but i would have to keep secret forever the fact that i helped a man united fan :eek:



Welcome!

It's not outrageous depending on what kind it was... but probably is overpriced.

Rob, you can probably tell them it's overpriced and i'll buy it for this-and-that, they probably have trouble selling a $200 garter snake...

[millertime89]

Welcome!

It's not outrageous depending on what kind it was... but probably is overpriced.

Rob, you can probably tell them it's overpriced and i'll buy it for this-and-that, they probably have trouble selling a $200 garter snake...

its possible, turnaround is more important than overall profit. I've used it on pawnshops and car dealers alike. If they've had it for an extended period of time then they're probably wanting to get rid of it because, not only do they have money tied up in the initial purchase, they have to keep feeding it too.

[jaleely]

infernalis...i love that snake on your hand. I'm actually a weirdo for a snake owner, I guess. I'm not that into the reds or albinos or anything. I think your girl is a beauty!

[infernalis]

infernalis...i love that snake on your hand. I'm actually a weirdo for a snake owner, I guess. I'm not that into the reds or albinos or anything. I think your girl is a beauty!

Not a weirdo.... She's one of may favourites too.

[redsided]

I love normal easterns and stuff too! Don't need reds and blues to be awesome looking!

[jaleely]

he's out of stock! boo....oh well i need to wait anyway, we're going on vacation and there's no money for new snakes! boo again! hehe

[infernalis]

when you get back, drop me a line, I almost always have Garters available.

Have 9 "normal" easterns from the copper mom still left over. and a "normal" male radix with a one year head start.

[infernalis]

Bump.... I found this looking for some of my old Thamnophis threads.

[LadyWraith]

I like this thread a lot. Thanks for the useful garter info. I'll admit, I share a lot of these misconceptions about them as captives lol. Seeing people on here talk about their experiences with them makes me want to look into it I'm always looking for species that are interesting.

[infernalis]

I like this thread a lot. Thanks for the useful garter info. I'll admit, I share a lot of these misconceptions about them as captives lol. Seeing people on here talk about their experiences with them makes me want to look into it I'm always looking for species that are interesting.

My garter snakes watch me vacuum the floor. They are bright and inquisitive, always looking out to see what is going on in the room.

[bigsnakegirl785]

This is a great thread! I was thinking about getting a garter snake from one of my friends. She got a surprise litter, and is giving some of the babies away. At first I was only going to go with one, but this is making me think about asking her if she could maybe send another my way. :P How big does the enclosure need to house two snakes together? They were born in July, and she won't be shipping them until warmer weather next spring. I have a 5gal tank and a 115qt tub free at the moment.

[infernalis]

As with any animal, bigger is better. I would insist on a minimum 20 long for two snakes.

and as with any reptile, be extra careful at feeding time, never introduce food and look away.

I feed my garters (that have roommates) in separate containers to prevent fights.

[Mikoh4792]

is a diet of just mice okay if a garter can be converted? how many would you house in a 4x2x2?

[bigsnakegirl785]

As with any animal, bigger is better. I would insist on a minimum 20 long for two snakes.

and as with any reptile, be extra careful at feeding time, never introduce food and look away.

I feed my garters (that have roommates) in separate containers to prevent fights.

I double-checked the label again, and it's actually 106qt, so I got the two mixed up. The bigger one is upstairs, and I plan on trashing it if I can't find a new top, since the lid got busted up. So, the tub is roughly 26.5gal. Dimensions are: 27in long by 12in tall by 14in wide (taken at the lowest point of the tub so I get the actual ground coverage). She's working on switching them over to mouse pinkies. I believe she has them on pinkie parts and earthworms right now. So, they should be on f/t mice when I get them. I'll be sure to feed them separately. How long should I keep them separated before I re-introduce them?

[infernalis]

I put mine right together when I get them.

[infernalis]

is a diet of just mice okay if a garter can be converted? how many would you house in a 4x2x2?

I know quite a few people who feed mice exclusively.

I would stick with 2 or 3 same sex individuals.

[wrecker45]

25555
Caught this little guy on my property.

[infernalis]

Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis. Eastern garter. Nice orange colors too.

[KORBIN5895]

I put mine right together when I get them.

I think she meant after separating them for feeding.

[bigsnakegirl785]

I think she meant after separating them for feeding.

Yes, I meant after feeding.

I was just wondering how long they needed to be separated. I'm guessing an or two?

[infernalis]

I leave them in the feed box, depending on the meal.

Fish is smelly, if the snake has fish smell on it, I (to their disliking) plop them into the water bowl first for a rinse.

If the meal is pinkie mice, not so.. just drop and leave.

I am currently shying away from the whole cohab idea anyhow, follow my history in the thanophis section, some bizarre fights have broke out, Once over a regurgitated minnow, the snake puked a fresh fish ten minutes after feeding, then the two faught over it.

I had another where a female laid "jellybeans" (infertile eggs) all over the cage floor, the snakes started eating them, boom a fight broke out.

at the moment, I only have 2 pair together, everyone else is split up.

[bigsnakegirl785]

Alright.

So, would you advise not putting them together at all, or should I just keep a close eye on them after feedings? They're both going to be male, so hopefully I won't have to worry about the eggs. I can find a lid for the other tub, or get a whole new tub if I need to.

[continuum13]

THanks for all the great info on this thread. i've had an neon blue infernalis since it was born at the end of june, I was told it's a male. It is very flighty and nervous all the time but used to handle getting picked up fine. Recently he's become more bitey which is ok since his teeth do no damage. Is there potential to "tame" a bit or will I be dealing with teeth the rest of his life. Also, as his teeth get bigger, whats a good way to handle the little guy during cage cleanings etc. ??? any info would be great!!

[Hotchkiss]

Anyone know the best way to find wild garters? I was wondering if it is too late in the year to catch them (I live in Maine and it's getting colder) If I do catch one how would I got about taming it? And what temperature should I keep it?

[Hotchkiss]

Anyone know the best way to find wild garters? I was wondering if it is too late in the year to catch them (I live in Maine and it's getting colder) If I do catch one how would I got about taming it? And what temperature should I keep it?


Bump.... Waiting on an answer to any of this :hmm:

[drumcrush]

Bump.... Waiting on an answer to any of this :hmm:

Yeah, I would like to know too. I just get lucky and run across them. Like when I don't even try, I find them. When I do try tho, I end up finding toads and insects:/

[Starbuck]

I typically look in woodpiles (large, heavy logs), and under flat pieces of plywood etc on the edges of fields. I'm no professional snake catcher though lol, and im not sure about seasonality in maine at this time of year...

[Hotchkiss]

anything on how to go about taming a wild garter?

[Starbuck]

i dont feel like its all that different from 'taming' any other WC snake... some take to it some dont.
The ones i've caught about 60% musk right away, but i've never had one bite me/try to bite. Just handle respectfully and calmly, make the snake feel secure, etc.

I dont think its really about taming, just letting the snake know 'Im not going to eat you'

[Hotchkiss]

Well, It's going to be about 70°f tomorrow and then getting colder from there... I'll look in/around the woods next to my house (I see them there often and I don't live near any large fields) hopefully I can nab at least one... any tips on baiting them? or should I just try to look under rocks/logs/in stumps?

[Starbuck]

infernalis/someone else will have to help you there; I look for them, but never have baited or lured them out, i just find them if theyre there.

[Hotchkiss]

Well I've only had my one snake (Normal ball python "Ozymandias") for a short while and I'm already trying to get more! They're like potato chips... or crack cocaine...

[Mikoh4792]

They're like crack cocaine...

Nothing compares to crack cocaine....




jokes

[infernalis]

Look under big flat things. Flip over debris, logs, big rocks. They like to hide.

[Hotchkiss]

well, I'll be going out at about 11am tomorrow and will be out for a few hours (or less if I find one!) and if I do find one I'll post a new thread with pictures

[Starbuck]

I would gonout a bit earlier if you can. They will be under flat stuff soaking up early morning heat, once thwy warm yp they'll be on the move looking for food.

[Hotchkiss]

I've captured a few (and released them later.... kind of regretting that) in the horse barn next to my house... there was one living in there for what i can only assume was a while as there were 2 shed skins in the barn.

[infernalis]

I don't keep the wild ones unless they need help. My snakes are CBB morphs or het morphs.

[ErikBush97]

I've never had negative thoughts or feelings towards garters, but the info I've learned here really makes me want a few! Maybe I'll pick a few up.

[lisas]

I see them (wild) all of the time and have since I was little. I've been musked and bitten, but I've also had them stay really still and just check me out. Sadly, they get run over a lot here. I was near a river this summer and there were about six of them crawling all around my son and I - it was pretty cool. I'd never thought of them as pets, but why not, they sound interesting. I didn't know that they came in colors either.