Savannah Monitor diet debate thread

[Jay]

Hey my opa needs to get rid of 15 baby quails just wondering if i could freeze them and feed them to comper once a week

[Jay]

they are small no bigger than his head

[infernalis]

It won't be a problem, just don't make it regular diet.

Do you have a roach colony??

[Jay]

nope ive been looking tho

[Jay]

chompers on the same diet as his parents ...
it has very little insects and i no how much controversy ther is here but im lucky enough that my father keeps savs and owns chompers father...

[Aaron_S]

So your father bred savs? What's your father's name? It's quite the accomplishment to have captive bred savs.

[Jay]

Robert Sprackland i think he has a few articles on the net... but he told me to ask around about the quails

[kriminaal]

Your father is Dr. Robert Sprackland? I thought he was American and lives in Seattle.

[Jay]

i was not born in canada

[kriminaal]

Cool, Robert has written quite a few articles and books on herpetology.
I was not aware that he had bred v.exanthematicus.
You should get his notes and post them. It would be very useful info for those looking to breed them.

[bighog85]

Robert Sprackland i think he has a few articles on the net... but he told me to ask around about the quails

Really? So if I get a hold of him(which I can do. We met in Portland at a show and he offered his help with my rescue/zoo) he will confirm what you are saying here?

[Jay]

i dont see why he wouldn't lol

[mxracer]

Quail is perfectly healthy as long as he can swallow it down. On a few other forum's I know members who breed these just for there monitors. You can feed them all the time ther very healthy as long as it's the whole prey. Remember alway's stick to whole prey items.

[Reptile_Reptile]

Just want to subscribe dont mind me

[Jay]

Just want to subscribe dont mind me
made me laugh dont know why....you changed your pic! i loved the Cheetos one haha

[Little Wise Owl]

Robert Sprackland i think he has a few articles on the net... but he told me to ask around about the quails

I wasn't aware Dr. Sprackland bred V. exanthematicus. Though since you claim he does, I don't know why he'd not know whether it was okay to feed quail or not. Quite peculiar...

In any case, I don't see why you couldn't if they're small enough. Though only as an occasional treat.

[mo9e64]

funny i just read a biography on Robert George Sprackland,i didn't know his dog had access to the internet.The fact that you would need to ask if you can feed birds of anykind to monitors should tell us your legitimacy-amusing though-Almost as amusing as the Sav tongue color post:confused:

[Sapphyr]

I really didn't want to get into it, but I guess I'm the only one that finds it a little on the rude side to jump on Jay for making such a claim and being all,"Well this doesn't seem right! You need proof."

Is it really that far fetched for someone, well known or not, to have a son?

[Jay]

its fine lol im not offended

[Little Wise Owl]

Not at all.

It's just that it's peculiar that someone who has written books and articles on varanids would want to ask people on a forum if they could feed quail...

Anyway, I'm new here and I don't want to get on anyone's bad side just yet for pointing this out. I'm gonna step outty. lol

[Jay]

Not at all.

It's just that it's peculiar that someone who has written books and articles on varanids would want to ask people on a forum if they could feed quail...

Anyway, I'm new here and I don't want to get on anyone's bad side just yet for pointing this out. I'm gonna step outty. lol

its because he Has his "ways" and he just told me to ask if anyone else does i was just curious thats all

[Little Wise Owl]

"Ways"? I don't understand. Can you elaborate?

[TeaNinja]

I really didn't want to get into it, but I guess I'm the only one that finds it a little on the rude side to jump on Jay for making such a claim and being all,"Well this doesn't seem right! You need proof."

Is it really that far fetched for someone, well known or not, to have a son?

i've been thinking this for the last 2 days straight, and i almost made a rude post asking why everyone is questioning his truthfullness instead of answering the original question. it is kind of pissing me off alittle bit.

[Sapphyr]

Well maybe he's just, personally, never tried Quail with his scaley friends before and wanted to check with other experienced beings before stuffing it in their mouths. Better to be cautious than to be wreckless.

You can be considered an expert by a whole nation and regarded as such, but sometimes, even experts, have a question.

[Jay]

he does not feed quail, he sticks his own diet and does not experiment i was looking for an open opinion im terribly sorry

[Little Wise Owl]

I see.

Thank you for answering.

[Sapphyr]

Naw, don't be sorry. You just had a question, it's good to ask questions. At any rate, Wayne said it was ok, just not as a regular diet, so I'm sure it's fine as maybe a treat.

[Jay]

yea he seemed to enjoy them ill probly do 1 or 2 a month

[mo9e64]

i wasn't trying to be rude-it's okay to question things.i should not have made the comment about the other post,i was harsh for that i'm sorry.as far as being Robert Spracklands son it doesn't really effect the question wether it's true or not-Quail is good food:)

[Sapphyr]

Mmk then.

And yes, questions are good and it's good to ask, but some things you just don't question out of respect, or at least try to word it in a way that's less likely to be interpreted as rude. Some questions are bad. Like... (trying to think of one that's not -really- bad) Asking an adult that has bladder control problems when the last time they wet themselves was in front of all their friends and/or family. Very embarrassing, very disrespectful.

[Jay]

Thanks, as far as savs go i never really got into them (call me out on that) But it wasnt until i moved out of state and got one i had several questions i am no expert do you do what your dad does come on now

[Aaron_S]

I really didn't want to get into it, but I guess I'm the only one that finds it a little on the rude side to jump on Jay for making such a claim and being all,"Well this doesn't seem right! You need proof."

Is it really that far fetched for someone, well known or not, to have a son?


Actually Sapphyr I see people's posts in this thread asking for the breeding information from the source. It's not like savannah's breed in captivity in any sort of abundance. Multiple times now people have asked for the data from these breedings purely for the sake of gaining knowledge and they haven't been acknowledged.

[Sapphyr]

Was mainly talking about the comments about why such a well educated man would need to ask others, or ask people on forums, about Quails as a diet item, as well as comments stating things that concerned calling Sprackland to comfirm the information Jay said. Or saying that even having to ask about this or that as a diet item makes it seem like Jay wasn't telling the truth. It just strikes me as a little rude. I wasn't meaning the concerns about breeding Savs and being unaware of such.

[mo9e64]

getting back to the subject of monitors.monitor keeping is not where it should be,and part of the reason is we take everything people say without questioning it.For example i read' feed Quails as a treat not entirely',from my perspective you should question that...why can't i feed Quail entirely.well so and so said so...it must be true.

[infernalis]

Thanks for bringing that up.. I was going to say something yesterday.

Just because "Wayne says" means nothing unless it pertains to forum use and rules.

In reality, you can give virtually any meat to a monitor on rare occasion, that does not mean it's good for them.

As with any wild animal, it's always best to adhere as closely as possible to the natural diet.

Hopefully one day folks will get it straight, I can sit here right now and search around and find a whole bunch of different "advice" on what to feed a Savannah.

One site will say NO MICE, then another site will tell you to "stick with a rodent diet".. So who exactly do you listen to??

Myself, I chose to listen to nature. if an animal survives in the wild on an insect diet, then evolution has decided that is what that animal needs to thrive.

However in reality, it may be really difficult to raise enough roaches to keep a single monitor fed.

[mo9e64]

very few people feed their animals a diet they have in the wild-any stomach contents data i've seen on wild monitors,is it not possible they are opportunists that make due with what's available.My Bluetails are doing fine on mice and that's not the majority of their diet in the wild lizards,snakes,spiders and other insects-roaches is a small part-if we repeat the same things over and over it doesn't change it to fact.

[infernalis]

If our Savannah's behaviour when we take him outside is any indication, yes they are very opportunistic feeders.

He consumes anything that moves and fits in his mouth.

He is very fond of crayfish from the creek, and he will dig around in the rocks looking for them. Beetles and bugs don't stand a chance when he spots them on the ground.

Out here where I live, there is no danger of insecticides or poisons.

[Lankyrob]

The answer with any of this is to find people who consistently keep a particular animal into OLD age. If some one is using a diet but their animals are dying consistently young then you dont follow their advice, if another persons animals are consistently living into what is considered a good age then they are obviously doing something right and their advice should be followed.

[mxracer]

***********************************
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Here's a simple answer. No one in there right mind would bring in one true cbb sav to the country with out bringing other's. Not to mention cost. And im waiting in the info. Cause I actually want to start a breeding project with sav's and want true cbb's to start, but we know it can't happen.

[Sapphyr]

I stated 'Wayne says' since you were the only one that answered the question, at the time.

And yes, just because someone says doesn't mean it's best. We all know many people have come here asking for diet tips and help since some internet care sheets have very conflicting information. It's always best to ask professionals or, as Rob said, people that have fed them on a diet and have kept them alive into the animal's elderly years.

I've personally never kept Savs, and may not ever keep them, so I personally have nothing to contribute as far as an answer goes.

[Jay]

**********************
*********************************** No one in there right mind would bring in one true cbb sav to the country with out bringing other's. Not to mention cost. And im waiting in the info. Cause I actually want to start a breeding project with sav's and want true cbb's to start, but we know it can't happen.
first of all this is my first forum 2nd i have never personally owned an akie and if i did i would not sell it to a 14 year old and who are you to come on here and say that if you no me

[Sapphyr]

And those are the exact kind of comments I was talking about...

Really, guys? Can we -please- just get along and focus on the subject at hand instead of pointing fingers like little squabbling kids?

[Jay]

lol i think i no who this kid is just an old friend i think

[Little Wise Owl]

I was just reading a study by Daniel Bennett and thought I'd share on his findings on what V. exathematicus regularly consumes in the wild.

He states:

"Otheropterans (giant crickets, smaller crickets and locusts), scorpions (primarily the large black scorpion, Pandinus imperator, that is also collected for international live animal trade), snails, slugs and amphibians" for juveniles/adults and large millipedes (lulus spp). for adults only.

There's no mention of them consuming birds so as you stated above, I'd personally only feed the quail once a month as a treat.

Here's the PDF if anyone's interested in reading:
http://library.mampam.com/bennettbullchicherpsoc.pdf

[bighog85]

very few people feed their animals a diet they have in the wild-any stomach contents data i've seen on wild monitors,is it not possible they are opportunists that make due with what's available.My Bluetails are doing fine on mice and that's not the majority of their diet in the wild lizards,snakes,spiders and other insects-roaches is a small part-if we repeat the same things over and over it doesn't change it to fact.

Very few people can keep their monitors alive for more than a few years so obviously these people that you speak of are experts. While many species are opportunists, savs are not one of those species. It is possible to feed a monitor a specialized diet, you just can't be lazy as a keeper. You might want to know what you are talking about before you make a comment like that. By the way, how old are your blue tails? Monitors can live for a while on a terrible diet. Just being alive does not mean that they are doing fine. I guarantee that if you keep feeding a bunch of mice, your animals are going to die young. Very few animals can survive while being fed little balls of fat.

[Jay]

havent we done this already? close the thred before it snow balls
im feeding him one or two every month and i have nothing to prove if it makes you feel better then keep bashin people on the net lol

[mo9e64]

why is it that the other author of the book, Ravi,did not feed his Sav's that he bred this wild diet.someone who is as smart as you imply would normally see the correlation between husbandry and diet--you like to focus on diet instead of 'complete' husbandry.if you do not get the results others do,i think you need to question your practices.i've talked to you (bighog)about this before-the people i consult get positive results with animals that breed and die in their late teens-you just tell me what i can't do-they tell me what i can do.I posted pictures of my monitors like you requested and yet you were silent!!!

[Jay]

why is it that the other author of the book, Ravi,did not feed his Sav's that he bred this wild diet.someone who is as smart as you imply would normally see the correlation between husbandry and diet--you like to focus on diet instead of 'complete' husbandry.if you do not get the results others do,i think you need to question your practices.i've talked to you (bighog)about this before-the people i consult get positive results with animals that breed and die in their late teens-you just tell me what i can't do-they tell me what i can do.I posted pictures of my monitors like you requested and yet you were silent!!!
its an endless and pointless fight lol have you ever fed quails?

[mo9e64]

no ,i haven't LOL i 've been told i can't:confused: sorry but open minded should be promoted.There are a lot of choices of diet that people can feed their monitors, that can be the right choice-what Lankyrob said earlier is a good point-positive, based on results successful people have.

[Jay]

yea he eats them no problem but he will eat anything lol

[mo9e64]

Infernalis stated that his Sav eats anything that will fit into his mouth when he's roaming outside.Doesn't commonsense tell you that's the definition of opportunist.

[infernalis]

havent we done this already? close the thred before it snow balls
im feeding him one or two every month and i have nothing to prove if it makes you feel better then keep bashin people on the net lol

First of all let me say this.. All discussion of who is realted to whom stops now.
Family liniage is irrelivant to the discussion, and all comments as such will be deleted.

Secondly, The discussion about sav diet will continue. This topic is always a very passionate heated topic on any forum I have ever seen, and trust me I have seen most of them.

We cannot just terminate a valid discussion because it gets a little heated, That would be censorship. One persons opinion over another is the very foundation of the word "forum". (look it up ;) )

However on a case by case basis, ocassionally certain threads that have been overtaken by drama trolls will be shut down, however since we have a zero tolerance for drama trolls here, that rarely happens.

"This has been a public service announcement, Now back to our regularly scheduled programming"

[infernalis]

And those are the exact kind of comments I was talking about...

Really, guys? Can we -please- just get along and focus on the subject at hand instead of pointing fingers like little squabbling kids?

Excellent reply.

[Little Wise Owl]

We cannot just terminate a valid discussion because it gets a little heated, That would be censorship. One persons opinion over another is the very foundation of the word "forum". (look it up ;) )

Holy moly... I wish other forums followed this...

Threads get closed left, right and center on most other forums I frequent if it gets a little heated...


As someone whose sole interest and hobby is in animal nutrition I find it incredibly frustrating when I see people feeding incorrect diets whether it be to dogs, cats, ferrets, monitors, turtles, lizards... I can understand why it's such a heated topic. lol

As animal keepers, we've been feeding dogs and cats an inappropriate diet since pet food came around and look where we are now... Allergies, obesity, food intolerances, cancers, very poor pet food regulation... I worry that reptiles will fall into the same unfortunate state in the next 20-30 years with similar improper feeding habits...

ANYWAY, I've severely digressed... I apologize. haha

[Sapphyr]

Thanks alot Wayne~

At any rate, very true statement, Owlie.

A proper diet is honestly like a test. You have to work with each diet through a whole generation if you want to see the ultimate outcome of it, which means a -long- process unless you have more than one 'experiments' going at once. Though, even with multiple diets running at once with different groups of animals of the same species, it's lengthy nonetheless. When I say working through with a whole generation, I mean seeing the ultimate outcome of the diet, meaning how long the animal lived on it and how healthy they were throughout. Obviously, if the animal seems to become gradually unhealthy, it's best to take them off the diet and try another. Trial and error. For experimenters(but, ofcourse, experimenters that love the testers as any other scaleybaby), I'd recommend more than one animal to a diet and observe. You don't know if one may have poor genetics or has caught something, developed a disease, etc. I'm sure there was tons of trial and error going around when dogs, cats, reptiles, rodents, etc. hit the markets as pets, and there still is trial and error today as far as 'the perfect diet' goes.

[Lankyrob]

I agree with bighogs point about an aninmla surviving not meaning it is helathy and long lived.

As humans we can decide to smoke a lot, drink alot and eat junk food - we will survive but there is little doubt about the fact we will not have a long life. A helathy diet and healthy amount of exercise (along with a few treats now and then) lead to a long and happier more fulfilling life. The thing is humans, in the most part, have CHOICE.

The animals that WE keep, outside of their NATURAL HABITAT, rely on us to look after them properly, proper housing, proper heating, proper humidity and PROPER FEEDING. IF animals are dying consistently early in their lives then something in their husbandry is wrong, as most people seem to agree on most reptiles housing/heating/humidity requirements then diet must be hte cause of the shortened life. I dont have a Sav myself but i will have one in the future, hopefully by then there will be a more defined diet without so much disparity in the world of herpers.

[mo9e64]

if you search around the net,you will find that Sav's are no different than any other medium to large monitors.when given choices,they are as active and fast as any other monitors-and need whole prey items to maintain growth.If you give your monitors subpar conditions,it doesn't matter what you feed them they will just subsist and eventually get obese and live short lifespans.It's all in the context of husbandry.

[bighog85]

why is it that the other author of the book, Ravi,did not feed his Sav's that he bred this wild diet.someone who is as smart as you imply would normally see the correlation between husbandry and diet--you like to focus on diet instead of 'complete' husbandry.if you do not get the results others do,i think you need to question your practices.i've talked to you (bighog)about this before-the people i consult get positive results with animals that breed and die in their late teens-you just tell me what i can't do-they tell me what i can do.I posted pictures of my monitors like you requested and yet you were silent!!!

I don't know what book you are referring to so I cannot comment on that. But I will say that if the discussion that we are having here was focused on "complete husbandry", then I would be commenting on that because of course I believe in it. I do get results with my animals which is why I feel that I can talk openly about this because I have something to say that most people need to know. Also, who is it that you are consulting with(I don't remember having discussed this before)because I don't know of to many people that are breeding varanus doreanus. There really aren't to many CB monitors in this country at all so I am curious as to where you are getting this info.

Infernalis stated that his Sav eats anything that will fit into his mouth when he's roaming outside.Doesn't commonsense tell you that's the definition of opportunist.

Ya but look at the list that he gave. Crayfish, beatles, bugs. They focus on things that science and research has proven to be their natural diet. If they were offered pre-killed mice out in the wilds of Africa, you can bet they would take it, but that does not mean that they know what foods are best for themselves. It blows my mind that people like yourself can be shown actual research from people that have gone to Africa and studied the stomach contents of the animals and still say that your way is best. How can you prove that? If you really believe that doreanus' eat strictly mice in the wild then show me the research. I don't care what these "breeders" that you know of say. Show me that you can feed an animal something that they are not designed to eat and have them live a long, healthy life. Or better yet, test your theories on yourself, maybe it will sink in then. Go eat at McDonalds every day and see how long you last.

if you search around the net,you will find that Sav's are no different than any other medium to large monitors.when given choices,they are as active and fast as any other monitors-and need whole prey items to maintain growth.If you give your monitors subpar conditions,it doesn't matter what you feed them they will just subsist and eventually get obese and live short lifespans.It's all in the context of husbandry.

This post proves your lack of knowledge. People using Google to find their care sheets is why most reptiles live a fraction of how long they are supposed to live. Again, there is no research involved with most of those sites, it is just people saying what they think(much like yourself here). You can give a sav perfect conditions but an incorrect diet will significantly shorten its life. A guy that writes on a couple other forums has some of the nicest savs I have ever seen but was feeding them an improper diet. He started to notice that one of his males was getting lethargic and within a couple months, it was dead. I think it was three or four years old. He had a necropsy done and found serious fat buildups around the internal organs which caused his insides to just shut down. If you don't feed them what they are designed by nature to eat, then they will not thrive. This is true of any living organism on the planet. Just because other monitors of similar size eat more meat does not mean that it is a universal diet. Raise your animals according to actual research, not what someone that wants to make money off of you said.

[mo9e64]

Ravi wrote The Savannah Monitor Book with Daniel Bennett,it had been brought uo earlier in the post-that's the book i was refering to.

Doreanus do not normally eat mice in the wild from stomach contents i've read,nor did i say that.You are right ,i only know of one person who has bred Doreanus-and i'm following their husbandry practices.

I believe that there are options to what you feed monitors whole prey items be it mice,rats,crickets,roaches,birds(quails),lizards and/or in combination.

Monitors in optimal conditions,are very hard to overfeed.You seem to believe that if you get different results like obesity blame diet-to me that's lazy(subjective)

I found your posts via 'GOOGLE':confused:

[Damion930]

Honestly I don't think u can realy use the stomach content of wild savs for picking a "healthy" captive diet as opportunistic eaters they are bound to eat what they can instead of what they should in keeping an animal it is our job to research what has ben proven to work for keeping them fit and healthy in captivity though I do agree that keeping them as close to a natural diet as possible is probably the best place to start wich is all just my opinion and not backed by my personaly keeping though I would like to someday

[mo9e64]

if you look at it, it does make sense that following a natural diet would be preferred-but people are getting results going outside.And what we think they can eat is only our perception,maybe the diet is restricted to what is available and is broader.The success overall of Sav's is no better than any of the medium to larger monitors-but tends to get, more attention due to their numbers and they get into more of the hands of the least experienced(price)

[Little Wise Owl]

Honestly I don't think u can realy use the stomach content of wild savs for picking a "healthy" captive diet as opportunistic eaters they are bound to eat what they can instead of what they should in keeping an animal it is our job to research what has ben proven to work for keeping them fit and healthy in captivity though I do agree that keeping them as close to a natural diet as possible is probably the best place to start wich is all just my opinion and not backed by my personaly keeping though I would like to someday

That's... an odd logic. Without using their natural diet as a guideline how would we know what to feed? That'd be a lot of unnecessary trial and error in my opinion...

I think nature's a pretty good example of what's "proven to work".

[Damion930]

Well for example as infernalis stated his will eat anything it finds that does not mean that the bug or what not it ate was good for it in the wild they eat what they can to survive not to be exactly healthy and ther is no telling how long the animals would have lived and you are only seeing ther diet of a few days worth of catches not ther diet and health over ther life span so looking at the stomach contents and finding a rock dosent mean u can feed them rocks or that the frog in ther will make a staple diet I fully agree that after a long study it could and I belive has ben shown that they eat mainly insects but wich of theis could u keep or find that would make a healthy diet for them unfortunately to move an animal from the wild and find a good healthy available diet does more often than not take trial and error and I thank those that came before me for this knowledge

[bighog85]

Ravi wrote The Savannah Monitor Book with Daniel Bennett,it had been brought uo earlier in the post-that's the book i was refering to.

Doreanus do not normally eat mice in the wild from stomach contents i've read,nor did i say that.You are right ,i only know of one person who has bred Doreanus-and i'm following their husbandry practices.

I believe that there are options to what you feed monitors whole prey items be it mice,rats,crickets,roaches,birds(quails),lizards and/or in combination.

Monitors in optimal conditions,are very hard to overfeed.You seem to believe that if you get different results like obesity blame diet-to me that's lazy(subjective)

I found your posts via 'GOOGLE':confused:

I really don't understand what sort of logic you are using in both your care for your animals and your posts here. Why would you not feed your animals what they are designed to eat. Do you really think that all monitors eat the same foods? Certain animals still have specific dietary requirements. I remember who you are now and what discussions we were having. You are the one that feeds "all they can eat every day". I am assuming that you are relatively new at this because anyone with experience would see how ridiculous that is. I also remember the pictures you sent of your blue tails and I believe they are quite young animals. That shows why you are not seeing overweight animals yet because all of that food will go directly to growth. That is not necessarily a good thing because extremely rapid growth can harm their bodies just as much as stunted growth.

You can believe whatever you want but that does not make any of it true. Monitors certainly can benefit from variety in their diet but that variety does not need to encompass every possible food option you can find. For insectivorous species like savs, you can do roaches, worms, mealworms, crayfish, mussels, and some fish. That is a very good diet that will still make a very healthy animal when done in the proper amounts.

Ok, we have had the discussion concerning obese monitors and you proved that you knew nothing concerning the topic. You are right that monitors kept in idea conditions will not get overweight. Unfortunately, those ideal conditions can only be achieved in their native habitat. Therefore, in captivity we have to do things so that we compensate for the lack of activity that is unavoidable in captivity. I certainly do NOT blame every reptile ailment on diet but in reality it is the most common problem. You can have a perfect enclosure(which is really the easiest part of monitor husbandry)but if you are feeding the wrong diet, you will still have an unhealthy animal. That is true with humans as well. I work out every day of my life but if I don't eat the right foods, it would not do me much good. Ask any bodybuilder and they will tell you that what they do is 70% about their diet. What is it going to take to get you to understand that what you are doing is wrong? You are being given proof and yet you still are resistant. Is it just a pride issue now? I guarantee I put more work into my animals diets than you do. It is a lot easier to thaw out a bunch of mice than it is to raise thousands of roaches, cut fish, find places to buy crayfish, etc. and yet you call my way of doing things lazy? I don't understand what that last line is supposed to mean so I will ignore it.

Honestly I don't think u can realy use the stomach content of wild savs for picking a "healthy" captive diet as opportunistic eaters they are bound to eat what they can instead of what they should in keeping an animal it is our job to research what has ben proven to work for keeping them fit and healthy in captivity though I do agree that keeping them as close to a natural diet as possible is probably the best place to start wich is all just my opinion and not backed by my personaly keeping though I would like to someday

First of all, lets all practice some proper punctuation in our posts if we can. Nobody likes to read posts that appear to be written by a five year old. Secondly, you completely contradicted yourself in one post by saying that we shouldn't use the stomach contents of wild savs and then saying that keeping them close to a natural diet is best. None of that really matters because you said yourself you have never kept monitors but you still need to think before you throw words up on a forum.

[Little Wise Owl]

Bighog, I agree with what you're saying almost completely but I'd make do without some of the harsh comments.

You can have a perfect enclosure(which is really the easiest part of monitor husbandry)but if you are feeding the wrong diet, you will still have an unhealthy animal.

I agree with this 110%. Nutrition and diet is the cornerstone of good health.

[infernalis]

Lets not forget exercise. A monitor locked in a box gets bored.

You have to spend some time and keep your animal active.

We take ours out and keep him occupied as often as we can, It's amazing how intelligent they are compared to snakes. He likes to explore the house and find trouble to get into.

[mo9e64]

you need to read peoples' replies more carefully.i thought i was wording things improperly,but you're just not getting it.Damion90's comment made sense to me,i'm not sure why the attack.

[mo9e64]

Adult Sav's diet in Senegal mostly comprised of millipedes.who feeds this to their Sav or more importantly who decides what to replace millipedes with fish and crayfish,which are not part or similar to anything in their natural diet. And the enclosure is not the easiest part of monitor husbandry-there are alot of variables which Bighog attributes to diet ,which are caused by improper caging.This is the death of female monitors due to reproductive issues(improper nesting sites)

[Little Wise Owl]

I was literally just reading a thread on Varanus.nl of a keeper feeding scorpions and millipedes to his V. exanthematicus.

It's surprising what dedicated varanid keepers do to keep their animals healthy.

[Little Wise Owl]

Also, it makes more sense to replace an invertebrate (millipede) with another invertebrate (crayfish) as opposed to vertebrate (mammals, birds, etc...)

[Damion930]

Lol sorry could your massive comprehensive skills not deduce my meaning without a.. sorry that's just petty and funny to me all I was saying is that u can't just look at what an animal ate and say that's the best food for ther health thers a little more to it than that and I belive that's somthing most can understand whether or not they keep the animal in question ofcourse it can be used to get an idea of starting point for a proper captive diet its just not a tell all because again they will eat what they can not what's good for them oh almost forgot.

Sorry if the comments I made seemed offensive. Was not at all my intentions bighog I greatly respect your knowledge and advice even though you come across kinda harsh somtimes lol it dosent bother me I can see you are only trying to educate for the benefit of the animals

[mo9e64]

all the current monitor husbandry techniques were brought about by people who tried new things,they failed but learned from their mistakes.Just becareful who you get your facts from because i tell if this was 10-20 years ago he would have fought against alot of the techniques we use today.but people would believe him-sounds like he's done this for along time tell us,what technics have you brought to monitor husbandry.Without trial and error we would not see the correlation of calcium absorption and high temps-monitors and other reptiles can grow properly without uvb completely indoors

[Aaron_S]

Damion, I think you're off by saying that we can't use the stomach contents to provide us with a real idea of a natural diet. You seem to suggest that it's only a single animal or two animals that were "inspected" when in reality it's been hundreds. When you take a sample size that large then yes you are entitled to believe that our captive animals should be eating what's closely related to the natural diet.

[mo9e64]

exactly,i did not read the varanus.nl about feeding millipedes and scorpions. but there is also a multitude of other types of food in their diet different species of crickets,reptile eggs,locust,snails etc.And if if you go with this line of reasoning ,you need to consider what the prey is feeding on as well.Can we just pick and choose or can we try to find animals to feed them which are more complete packages.i have no problem with feeding millipedes and scorpion to a Sav but that's just part of their natural diet.

[infernalis]

I think that the general consensus among monitor researchers is that the majority of prey consumed is Arthropod based. (look it up if you have to)

However I'm certain that if a Savannah Monitor happened upon a mammal carcass on the ground, it would most likely feed from it. Now I can only base that assumption on the fact that from what I have personally seen, Chomper has never turned down a plate of meat, regardless of what species that meat was "harvested" from.

So when we give him raw meat, I chose to feed strips of venison cut from the leanest parts of the deer. To me that seems a lot more natural, since the Savannah region has several species of grass grazing animals closely related to deer and the big cats will leave enough behind for opportunity feeders and scavengers to pick from.(maybe I'm wrong, only time will tell)

Further I'd wager that if a wild monitor wandered into a nest of baby birds, the lizard would probably feed from it.

However logic also says that since the savannah climate alternates between "feast and famin" that only the stupidest of bird would dare nest on the ground there, far too many predators around, so just exactly how many nests would a wild Savannah Monitor actually find that would be easy to feed from??

In my quest to back up what I say, I found this....

The Savannah Monitor, Varanus exanthematicus – Feeding Intro (http://savannahmonitor.org/feeding)

Since the article is quoting Daniel Bennett, I tend to trust what it says.

When examining the reasons behind the frighteningly low survival rates of the Savannah Monitor in captivity, improper diet is found to be the third arm in the trifecta of substandard monitor care, closely intertwined with inadequate housing and overhandling. Feeding a Savannah Monitor a diet meant for other monitors, other reptiles, dogs or cats, or even humans, will cause all sorts of health problems and ultimately a drastically shortened lifespan.

Food choice and frequency seems to be an area of high controversy. To avoid simply stating opinion, we will always go back to study the animal’s behavior in the wild. As previously stated, the monitor itself is the greatest teacher. In feeding, the monitor keeper does not need to reinvent the wheel and come up with wild concoctions and diets. In the wild, the monitor eats what is nutritionally best, and our job as responsible keepers is to try to reproduce this as best we can.

There have been enough studies done of the diet of the Savannah Monitor in the wild that we simply no longer have to guess or argue about the monitor’s list of prey items. For instance, Daniel Bennett writes in the Little Book of Monitor Lizards 1, “I have examined the stomach contents and fecal samples from over 200 of these animals in the wild. Only one specimen was recorded as having eaten a vertebrate, the rest had fed only on invertebrates.”

Bennett’s year 2000 study in Ghana found the Savannah Monitor eating crickets, centipedes, locusts, slugs, and other such invertebrates 2. Cisse, in 1972, examined the stomach contents of 28 individual monitors, and found the prey consisted of millipedes, crickets, grasshoppers, snails, and scorpions 3.

The Savannah Monitor, as such, is an invertebrate feeder, foraging almost solely on insects, as well as mollusks and crustaceans. In this manner, this monitor occupies a very small niche in the monitor world. Unlike almost all other monitors, it has never been found to be an “opportunistic feeder”, nor is it the “garbage disposal” that other monitors have a reputation for being. Given all prey options, it specifically hunts down invertebrates, and only invertebrates.4

From an evolutionary standpoint, you can further see below in the MRI of a Savannah Monitor skull 5 that as it ages the monitor adapts rear blunt teeth used in crushing as opposed to sharp, serrated teeth used in tearing

[bighog85]

Adult Sav's diet in Senegal mostly comprised of millipedes.who feeds this to their Sav or more importantly who decides what to replace millipedes with fish and crayfish,which are not part or similar to anything in their natural diet. And the enclosure is not the easiest part of monitor husbandry-there are alot of variables which Bighog attributes to diet ,which are caused by improper caging.This is the death of female monitors due to reproductive issues(improper nesting sites)

Millipedes are something I would love to feed to my monitors but my wife is SERIOUSLY against it, lol. She barely lets me keep the roaches so millipedes are just something I can't do. The reason I feed fish and crayfish when I can find it is that it is very nutritious without being fatty. Invertebrates digest differently that vertebrates do so feeding crayfish is a natural choice. Fish are just very nutritious. What I meant by the enclosure being the easiest part is that it really is a onetime deal. Assuming you set it up right the first time, there is rarely a need to do a ton of maintenance aside from water changes and such. Diet, when done properly, is often a never ending process of preparing food which often makes a keeper lazy. Why do you think those monitor meatloaf concoctions come up all the time? It is because keepers are looking for an easy solution to feeding a high maintenance animal. Wow, you just won't get off this kick of yours where you think that I believe diet is the only answer. You are getting desperate.

Lol sorry could your massive comprehensive skills not deduce my meaning without a.. sorry that's just petty and funny to me all I was saying is that u can't just look at what an animal ate and say that's the best food for ther health thers a little more to it than that and I belive that's somthing most can understand whether or not they keep the animal in question ofcourse it can be used to get an idea of starting point for a proper captive diet its just not a tell all because again they will eat what they can not what's good for them oh almost forgot.

Oh I can comprehend what you are saying, a little punctuation would just add some credibility to your posts. Again, it appears that a five year old wrote it and I don't know many young children that I would take seriously on a reptile forum. So what you are saying is that people know better than millions of years of evolution for what these animals should eat. It is not like these researchers went out and looked at one animals stomach contents and called it quits. They studied hundreds of animals and when any study shows that kind of consistency, it is generally proven as fact.

Sorry if the comments I made seemed offensive. Was not at all my intentions bighog I greatly respect your knowledge and advice even though you come across kinda harsh somtimes lol it dosent bother me I can see you are only trying to educate for the benefit of the animals

I'm not offended at all, I love discussions like this. I am fully aware that I come across harsh and most of the time I do it on purpose. If they as adults(I'm assuming we are all adults)cannot handle some harsh words, then they need to grow up. So no worries, I'm not going to throw a tantrum because of some harsh words.

all the current monitor husbandry techniques were brought about by people who tried new things,they failed but learned from their mistakes.Just becareful who you get your facts from because i tell if this was 10-20 years ago he would have fought against alot of the techniques we use today.but people would believe him-sounds like he's done this for along time tell us,what technics have you brought to monitor husbandry.Without trial and error we would not see the correlation of calcium absorption and high temps-monitors and other reptiles can grow properly without uvb completely indoors

It is funny that you mention this because it just so happens that a lot of the techniques that you are proclaiming here are those that were "correct" ten or twenty years ago. You are wrong though that all of the current info was learned by trial and error. A lot of it, such as the diets for savs, was learned from these studies that I have mentioned. Daniel Bennett did captive savs a great service when he conducted his research and found that they are primarily insectivores. Fifteen years ago, most people were keeping their monitors at the same temps as snakes but we learned through research that they need basking spots upwards of 140 degrees. The point is, it is not twenty years ago so why suggest that the old ways of doing things have anything to do with our discussion here? I have been keeping reptiles for almost twenty years though monitors have only been in my life for about ten of those. I am not a scientist who has studied these animals for the last fifty years. I never claimed to be a pioneer of monitor husbandry so I'm not sure why you brought this up. I just follow the guidance of people that know a lot more than I do and then try to teach what I have learned. If you are just trying to get into a pissing match then just go somewhere else. Forums are meant to teach and be learned from and you are doing neither.

[infernalis]

Reading that data that I just quoted, reinforces what has already been said in this discussion.. The primary diet has virtually zero fat tissue in it, so that tells me that the physiology of the animal is such that Savannah Monitors do not "process" fatty tissues and therefore it builds up inside the monitor and eventually will cause organ shutdown (death)

Brian had posted a nice necropsy photo once in the past, I wish I could find it. The photo shows the fat buildup around the animals vital organs. Not good.

I recently posted this photo on another thread, Have a look at how firm that belly is, it's not dragging on the ground, and he does not waddle when he walks. He has a nice gate to his walk, he can run a lot faster than me, and if you look close, this animal is fit.

most captive monitors I have seen have big bellies that drag, why is that?? too much fat in the diet maybe??

http://www.danceswithreptiles.com/herp/standing.jpg

[Little Wise Owl]

You mean this isn't healthy?! :rolleyes:

http://www.stingersexotics.com/sting1008001.jpg

[infernalis]

Glad you used the rolling eyes, I almost took you seriuosly.

That my friends is one morbidly obese Bosc.

[Little Wise Owl]

That monitor is 28lbs and his diet is:
"Chuckie eats a variety of foods from defrosted large rats, defrosted chicks & quail, monitor diet, scrambled eggs and scraps of this and that"

- Chuckie that fat monitor (http://www.stingersexotics.com/sting1_008.htm)

[Damion930]

Oh no def not better than evolution or mother nature both responsible for the extinction of millions of animals do to minuscule changes in environment lol. No I def get the point and agree for the most part but still think that a time line of healthy keeping on a specific diet is more beneficial than the stomach continent because well even researching hundreds of animals within the same environment ther are still going to consistently be unhealthy items in ther wild diet on a regular basis with virtually no way of distinguishing between the healthy and unhealthy content what if they eat those millipedes because they are the yummyest things ever they would always be in the stomach in large amounts. I guess my only point realy is that you have to look at what others have had true success with and failure to determine a suitable healthy diet and sorry punctuation is a pain on my phone and most people that can read over a 5 yr old level don't need it words and context punctuate themselves

[infernalis]

No offense, but that is one reason why I refuse to enter the "texting phone era"

slews of words all jammed together and abbreviated annoy me. but I was raised differently than today's generation.

I used to get corrected and scolded if I even used "ain't" in a sentence.

[Little Wise Owl]

Hey now ;)

I text like a monster but my texts all contain proper grammar and punctuation. :D

[infernalis]

I sometimes use Dorothy's blackberry, but those keys are so damn tiny, and I have huge hands it's difficult to type.

[mld]

No offense, but that is one reason why I refuse to enter the "texting phone era"

slews of words all jammed together and abbreviated annoy me. but I was raised differently than today's generation.

I used to get corrected and scolded if I even used "ain't" in a sentence.

I agree, I guess we are showing our age!
"i hate words that r jammed together 2 it drives me bonkers and i dont understand what there trying 2 say have the time if they would just put some sort of punctuation in there sentences it would make it more readable and understandable but hey thats the generation these days and hopefully when they write their resumes they will consider trying to puts more efforts into it oh i can understand if they are paying for each and every syllable but not sure if that is the case do text myself so how does it work do you pay for each text sent or for each word oh well i ain't gotta clue what im talking bout anyway and thats what spell check is 4"

[mxracer]

Quail can be feed daily, same as baby chicks. But savannah's will thrive better on an insect diet. And don't go from saying you never sold me the ackie, to saying im an old friend. I had to drive to the best western in hamilton to meet you. But because this is the internet you get to lie and be the good guy. Soon I will be purchasing 4 savannah's so that I end up with a male and female hopefully. We need people to try breeding these. So try pairing yours up and give it ago.

[Lankyrob]

Quail can be feed daily, same as baby chicks. But savannah's will thrive better on an insect diet. And don't go from saying you never sold me the ackie, to saying im an old friend. I had to drive to the best western in hamilton to meet you. But because this is the internet you get to lie and be the good guy. Soon I will be purchasing 4 savannah's so that I end up with a male and female hopefully. We need people to try breeding these. So try pairing yours up and give it ago.

Why is it some people enter a post into a long thread without actually reading the majority of the information posted first? Everything that has been posted leads to the conclusion that feeding anything other than arthopods on a regular basis is unhealthy and you jump into the end of a thread with the totally opposite.

Either that or a, you arent intelligent enough to understand or b, you are just looking for a fight.

[Reptile_Reptile]

Quail can be feed daily, same as baby chicks. But savannah's will thrive better on an insect diet. And don't go from saying you never sold me the ackie, to saying im an old friend. I had to drive to the best western in hamilton to meet you. But because this is the internet you get to lie and be the good guy. Soon I will be purchasing 4 savannah's so that I end up with a male and female hopefully. We need people to try breeding these. So try pairing yours up and give it ago.
dude dont be a ****. sorry but this thread is pissing me off i dont even know why i keep looking at it. probably cause Wayne and bighog are actually producing content i can learn from.

[Lankyrob]

Same reason i keep reading reptile, i want one of these guys someday and want it to have the best opportunity of a long and happy life. I know without a doubt who i will be listening too in terms or husbandry when that day comes.

[Reptile_Reptile]

Same reason i keep reading reptile, i want one of these guys someday and want it to have the best opportunity of a long and happy life. I know without a doubt who i will be listening too in terms or husbandry when that day comes.
for real........... just a heads up Rob you can call me JR

[Jay]

Quail can be feed daily, same as baby chicks. But savannah's will thrive better on an insect diet. And don't go from saying you never sold me the ackie, to saying im an old friend. I had to drive to the best western in hamilton to meet you. But because this is the internet you get to lie and be the good guy. Soon I will be purchasing 4 savannah's so that I end up with a male and female hopefully. We need people to try breeding these. So try pairing yours up and give it ago.

ok well hi my name is jay0133 i am the only one who can use this user name, i just moved down here lol and no quails cant be fed daily if you are who i think you are then lol

[bighog85]

Oh no def not better than evolution or mother nature both responsible for the extinction of millions of animals do to minuscule changes in environment lol. No I def get the point and agree for the most part but still think that a time line of healthy keeping on a specific diet is more beneficial than the stomach continent because well even researching hundreds of animals within the same environment ther are still going to consistently be unhealthy items in ther wild diet on a regular basis with virtually no way of distinguishing between the healthy and unhealthy content what if they eat those millipedes because they are the yummyest things ever they would always be in the stomach in large amounts. I guess my only point realy is that you have to look at what others have had true success with and failure to determine a suitable healthy diet and sorry punctuation is a pain on my phone and most people that can read over a 5 yr old level don't need it words and context punctuate themselves

No words can describe...

[infernalis]

Either MX racer starts posting something worthwhile, or lose posting privileges altogether.

[Aaron_S]

Wayne I appreciate that quote of Mr. Bennett. It was rather informative.

I think it proves what has been said along and does it with proof. I also like the picture of your savannah. He's looking great. Just because it can eat it doesn't mean it should. Just as someone else pointed out about humans and McDonald's.

[infernalis]

Many Thanks Aaron.

Hopefully the money will present itself this year to finally get his outdoor pen together.

[infernalis]

Quail can be feed daily, same as baby chicks. But savannah's will thrive better on an insect diet. And don't go from saying you never sold me the ackie, to saying im an old friend. I had to drive to the best western in hamilton to meet you. But because this is the internet you get to lie and be the good guy. Soon I will be purchasing 4 savannah's so that I end up with a male and female hopefully. We need people to try breeding these. So try pairing yours up and give it ago.

I never thought I would see the day I would do this here......

I don't even feed mine daily.

http://www.reptard.info/funny/doublefacepalm.jpg

[Jay]

Wayne just a semi off topic question, when you had chomper out side would he try and climb lol mine always goes to this big tree and tries for hours to get up its kinda fun to watch

[Sapphyr]

I was absent for about a day and WOW did this thread flare up! I gotta say, Wayne and BigHog did a wonderful job of outlining a natural Sav diet and I agree with their quotes/statements 100%.

And hey, I text but all of mine have proper grammar and punctuation as well. ;c If I ever say 'u' as you, please shoot me.

I also agree about MxRacer.

[mo9e64]

it's official ,discussion over ,Sapphyr has given 100% i haven't seen groupies on forums before LOL

[infernalis]

it's official ,discussion over ,Sapphyr has given 100% i haven't seen groupies on forums before LOL

Thanks, I needed that. I rarely chuckle involuntarily to myself while reading posts, but that one just just did it....

[infernalis]

Wayne just a semi off topic question, when you had chomper out side would he try and climb lol mine always goes to this big tree and tries for hours to get up its kinda fun to watch

No he does not seem interested in climbing. Logs laying on the ground are interesting to him, but I'm thinking it because they are great spots to find bugs.

He does love to hide in the grass, and I have to be really careful to keep him far away from woodchuck holes, the burrows are deep and just the perfect diameter.

Back on the food subject, I'm picking up a bag of uncooked shrimp and see what he thinks of them.

Since he is so fond of the crayfish, I bet he'd really like shrimp.

[bighog85]

it's official ,discussion over ,Sapphyr has given 100% i haven't seen groupies on forums before LOL

Ya, boy those damn "groupies" that want the best for their animals and aren't in it for personal pride...the nerve...

[Damion930]

Lol sorry fellas I will try and take the time to punctuate a lil better lol.

[bighog85]

Wayne just a semi off topic question, when you had chomper out side would he try and climb lol mine always goes to this big tree and tries for hours to get up its kinda fun to watch

I am thinking he might be doing that because he is feeling insecure and looking for a place to hide. Savs aren't climbers at all except for when they are young and trees provide some protection. Just a thought.

[Jay]

could be, i think he got spooked that day as well. It was also last last year and he was only a few months old ill have to wait until summer to see what he will do

[infernalis]

quick question Jay.. do you have an area available that there is no other people around??

I'm just curious, or do you have to go to a public park?

[Damion930]

Curious is ther any line of thinking to keeping them on a feast and famine diet as they partake in in the wild. I can't realy see any benefits to this except possibly to reduce fatty build up that they are designed to store. Just wondering for the sake of wondering.

[infernalis]

from what I have seen and gathered, once a monitor becomes obese, it's extremely difficult to get them healthy again. ( I base that statement solely on what I have read, and not on personal experience. Chompers food intake has been regulated since the day we got him as a hatchling. )

One thing that has to be taken into consideration, if you allow the animal to eat until it's "satisfied". it will consistently overeat.

No matter how much they beg, no matter how much of a temper tantrum that lizard throws, don't give in.

In the wild, even with feast/famine conditions, they have to hunt and chase the prey, in captivity people hand them the food, not much going on to promote exercise and get the ol' heart rate up.

[Sapphyr]

it's official ,discussion over ,Sapphyr has given 100% i haven't seen groupies on forums before LOL

Pardon, but no where did I say my word was an end all. I'm just saying that all of their information and quotes adds up and from all the details they've given, and proof, quotes, links, etc. it all seems to be the healthiest and best decision for a Sav's diet by date and from what's been stated by far.

Absolutely NO WHERE did I say my OPINION was -definite- and the end all say all for this conversation. I don't have a fat ego, I don't think I know everything, please don't go off on a whim and make such rude remarks based on absolutely nothing.

[Reptile_Reptile]

Pardon, but no where did I say my word was an end all. I'm just saying that all of their information and quotes adds up and from all the details they've given, and proof, quotes, links, etc. it all seems to be the healthiest and best decision for a Sav's diet by date and from what's been stated by far.

Absolutely NO WHERE did I say my OPINION was -definite- and the end all say all for this conversation. I don't have a fat ego, I don't think I know everything, please don't go off on a whim and make such rude remarks based on absolutely nothing.
i dont think he was trying to be mean

[Sapphyr]

So you don't think,"It's official, discussion over, Sapphyr has given 100%. I've never seen groupies on forums before. LOL" strikes you as rude? To me, it's a rather snide statement.

He's stating that since I said I agree with Wayne and BigHog 100%, then OBVIOUSLY the discussion is over because I've given my opinion, like it's the most important, therefore everyone has to listen to me. I made no claim to such a horrid assumption, nor would I ever -ever- think my opinion is almighty and everyone must abide by it. That's just plain old stupid and anyone that thinks that of themselves could stand to have their ego knocked down a peg or two. An opinion is an opinion, it's not fact. A fact is a fact. Example: I think ball pythons are prettier than corn snakes. = Opinion. I think ball pythons are bigger than hognoses. = Fact.

Furthermore, he's saying that, since I agree with them, I'm obviously a forum groupie and only agree with them since they're so obviously my friends. I don't know BigHog, nor do I claim him to be my friend. Maybe if I actually talk to him more, I'd consider him to be, but I don't know him well enough. Wayne? He's a good guy, but I don't know if he considers me a friend.

This is how I see the statement, and it's very rude to make such an assumption, even more to actually go with it and make such a remark. Not all assumptions are right.

At any rate, none of that is near relevant to this conversation. I'm really tired of these attacks, I wish -some people- in this thread would stay focused about the DIET discussion and not about talking crap on people.

And yes, I know that I may also go into that talking crap category, but it's only defense of someone being rude in my direction. I personally feel like it was an unprecedented attack because I haven't done or said anything rude to anyone, though some might of taken offense to my statement of 'stop pointing fingers LIKE little kids'. I said LIKE, not you ARE. I mean, to me, that statement he made came from absolutely no where.

[Reptile_Reptile]

even wayne took it as a joke. im sorry you feel that way.

[Sapphyr]

even wayne took it as a joke. im sorry you feel that way.

Yes, well, I find it offensive to just randomly be picked on for absolutely no apparent reason. It's very annoying.

[infernalis]

Yes, well, I find it offensive to just randomly be picked on for absolutely no apparent reason. It's very annoying.


I honestly believe Mo had no intentions of offending you. ;) I really think he was just trying to lighten the mood on a heavy debate.

Had I perceived his post as malicious toward you, I would have deleted it and said something.

His post could be taken in a few ways, maybe he called the whole forum "groupies" maybe that implies I am a sheep herder and the flock follows... maybe it was a lighthearted stab at a situation that needed a little "tickle" to bring some smiles...

Think about the BS that Jay has endured throughout this discussion, and he was the one who launched the thread in the first place..

[mxracer]

I don't need to read most of it to understand most of you have very little to no expeirence with monitors. Yes im younger then probably all of you, but probably have more expeirence then most of you on here. I don't care if you think im an a hole cause it doesn't matter what you think. I post on forums cause I have lots of knowledge on monitors. This is a pitifull forum for monitors cause theres not any knowlagable keepers on here. Go to another forum cause this ones crap. Why don't you post some pics, every one loves pics.

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff219/189981/Picture026-2.jpg
http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff219/189981/Picture015-1.jpg

[mxracer]

Plus all the post on here don't even pertain to the op or question. It's mostly BS convo.

[Lankyrob]

If you think the forum is that bad why dont you take your opinion elsewhere and let those of us who enjoy this forum carry on without having to listen to your pitiful whining.

[infernalis]

What I see is two very young monitors who have not been around long enough to get all messed up inside yet. housed in a cage that looks far better suited to Iguanas than Savannah monitors.

Terrestrial burrowing animals housed in an arboreal cage and being fed the diet that you endorse are doomed to die at a young age.

and yes you do need to read the entire discussion, any idea how stupid it makes you look when you jump into the middle of a discussion and make statements that have already been proven false several posts prior??

Then back up your "claims" by posting a picture that clearly displays improper housing?

Daniel Bennett is known the world over for his Savannah research, he went to their native habitat and did bona fide research, yet you challenge his findings.

[infernalis]

Plus all the post on here don't even pertain to the op or question. It's mostly BS convo.

Again, you are freaking clueless.

Im really big into reptiles and I want to work with them for a living.

Then you need to open up your mind and be willing to learn!

************************************************** *********
So far you have done nothing but make yourself look like a fool, harass people and then call the forum names...

See ya!

http://www.reptard.info/ssnakess/banhammer.jpg

[Jay]

.

Think about the BS that Jay has endured throughout this discussion, and he was the one who launched the thread in the first place..
what BS ? because you think its wrong its BS?

[infernalis]

what BS ? because you think its wrong its BS?


You put up with some crap (BS) in this thread haven't you?

Nothing to do with your question, That punk motocrosser wannabe called you a liar didn't he?

Now can we please move on and continue the Monitor discussion.

[Jay]

You put up with some crap (BS) in this thread haven't you?

Nothing to do with your question, That punk motocrosser wannabe called you a liar didn't he?

Now can we please move on and continue the Monitor discussion.

. When i took chomper out i was still living in the country i had chomper out back in the woods and by brother fired up his dirt bike and it spooked him also a squirrel was in that tree i have no idea whats going on in his head

[Sapphyr]

Mmk then, sorry for my statement then. I took it as what I'd said and also as,"Who cares what you think? Your opinion doesn't matter.". If it was a joke, then sorry for misunderstanding(I'm not good with some/most jokes).

And Wayne, that banhammer pic amuses me.~

Also, I've never owned Savs, possibly never will, and therefore don't have alot of personal experience, but the ones in the pic do look kind of young... and I think one of them looks to be developing some 'chub' on them. Also, is there more to the cage than that?... Because if that's all it is, it looks really inadequate(probably an understatement), even to someone that's never owned them. :/ Your setup is worlds away from other setups(that are really good for them) I've seen for Savs.

[bighog85]

Mmk then, sorry for my statement then. I took it as what I'd said and also as,"Who cares what you think? Your opinion doesn't matter.". If it was a joke, then sorry for misunderstanding(I'm not good with some/most jokes).

And Wayne, that banhammer pic amuses me.~

Also, I've never owned Savs, possibly never will, and therefore don't have alot of personal experience, but the ones in the pic do look kind of young... and I think one of them looks to be developing some 'chub' on them. Also, is there more to the cage than that?... Because if that's all it is, it looks really inadequate(probably an understatement), even to someone that's never owned them. :/ Your setup is worlds away from other setups(that are really good for them) I've seen for Savs.

If you are talking about the pics that mxracer posted, then those aren't savs. They are ackie monitors and they are adults though you are right about them being a bit chubby. His enclosure is actually pretty nice for a pair of ackies. He is a kid though and thinks he knows everything. He may be knowledgeable for a teenager but he has no respect for those of us that have been doing this longer than he has been alive. I see him on other forums and he does the same thing there that he did here, only the other places put up with it. I wouldn't mind meeting him in a dark alley sometime, I HATE people like that!

[Lankyrob]

Ackies should look more like this

http://i375.photobucket.com/albums/oo200/Lankyrob1975/Reptiles%20Nov%202010/DSC_0054.jpg

He is a Spiny tailed monitor, bighog, what specific genus do you think motos are? They look a lot bigger than my guy, even with being chubby.

[Sapphyr]

Ohhh, those were Ackies? I'd thought he'd posted pics of Savs since that's what the topic is on. I know absolutely zero about Ackie's and I only know a -little- about what a Sav's enclosure should look like. I know the general idea of a Sav's enclosure. Nothing about Ackies, though.

and, if that's what a normal, healthy Ackie should look like.. then I'd say they are both on a little on the chubby side, one not so much than the other, but still a little.

[Jay]

Just some updated pics of chomper begging for his dinner and posing for my cam sorry about the quality i didnt have my good cam on hand

[bighog85]

He is a Spiny tailed monitor, bighog, what specific genus do you think motos are? They look a lot bigger than my guy, even with being chubby.

Rob, there are a couple different species of ackies in the pet trade. Acanthuras acanthuras is known as the red ackie and acanthuras brachyurus is the yellow ackie. I think his are brachyurus but I am not 100% on that. It is hard to tell with the bright lights on them. His are probably bigger because of the diet that he feeds them even though acanthuras are supposed to be bigger.

[mo9e64]

Sapphyr sorry that i used you to lighten the mood-it was my way of saying let's move on. best regards Moe

[mo9e64]

In another thread science and scientists were discussed.The example we used, perhaps isn't a good example, but serves my point.Daniel Bennet is a scientist,i don't dispute his findings on Sav's.But when you just take things you read as fact-things you can miss is alternative motive or agenda.In posts by Daniel Bennett i was apart of, his agenda is clear,and it was apparent he would bend facts a bit to make his point.Scientists are human and not infallible.His view is monitors should be banned from export-a view i don't entirely disagree with.If we talk about monitor husbandry what have scientists actually brought? other than diet,please don't get into diet LOL

[bighog85]

In another thread science and scientists were discussed.The example we used, perhaps isn't a good example, but serves my point.Daniel Bennet is a scientist,i don't dispute his findings on Sav's.But when you just take things you read as fact-things you can miss is alternative motive or agenda.In posts by Daniel Bennett i was apart of, his agenda is clear,and it was apparent he would bend facts a bit to make his point.Scientists are human and not infallible.His view is monitors should be banned from export-a view i don't entirely disagree with.If we talk about monitor husbandry what have scientists actually brought? other than diet,please don't get into diet LOL

Bennetts findings ARE the alternative. All of the other ways of doing things have been tried with savs and only when you treat them true to their nature do you get results. What facts has he bent? Because his findings go against your "feed them till they die" approach? All you do is question other peoples ways of doing things, usually when the ways don't need to be questioned. I understand your philosophy of always trying to better husbandry but when it comes to this, it is more important that you do it right rather than keep questioning things. Have you noticed that you never actually contribute anything helpful or knowledgeable, you just tell us that we are wrong. I can't figure out why you even mentioned the exportation thing so I will leave that alone. Biologists are the reason we know anything about these animals. Eric Pianka, Daniel Bennett, Robert Sprackland, these are the guys that have devoted their careers to learning about monitors and we all benefit greatly from that. Go read a book on monitors rather than what you find on Google and then ask questions as to what they have brought to our hobby.

[mo9e64]

somehow my new thread entitled 'science' got diverted to this thread somehow.No offense to Jay,but Robert Sprackland has not added to husbandry-i got Giant Lizards the older version,and it wasn't very good, saying it nicely.He has contributed to his field just not husbandry.The only books i haven't read are by the germans-i'm wary of buying expensive books especially when it's known most monitor books as far a husbandry is concerned are not very good.I like the Sav Book and The Nile Monitor by Robert Faust-they are good books but are vague as far as husbandry IMO.To say not to question is just ignorant,and my contribution of trying to make people think ,is my failure.the internet is a valuable tool,you just have to sieve through the junk.If you,Bighog,feel the need to be right,just go ahead and attack my views you can be right.
ps on a posting on KS ,Daniel Bennett correlated natives storing live monitors for food-to inhumane exportation conditions-they were for food-not export.when you have an agenda ,whether it is right or wrong-lying to make facts fit is wrong.i personally agree with his views,just not methods.

[Jay]

somehow my new thread entitled 'science' got diverted to this thread somehow.No offense to Jay,but Robert Sprackland has not added to husbandry-i got Giant Lizards the older version,and it wasn't very good, saying it nicely.He has contributed to his field just not husbandry.The only books i haven't read are by the germans-i'm wary of buying expensive books especially when it's known most monitor books as far a husbandry is concerned are not very good.I like the Sav Book and The Nile Monitor by Robert Faust-they are good books but are vague as far as husbandry IMO.To say not to question is just ignorant,and my contribution of trying to make people think ,is my failure.the internet is a valuable tool,you just have to sieve through the junk.If you,Bighog,feel the need to be right,just go ahead and attack my views you can be right.
ps on a posting on KS ,Daniel Bennett correlated natives storing live monitors for food-to inhumane exportation conditions-they were for food-not export.when you have an agenda ,whether it is right or wrong-lying to make facts fit is wrong.i personally agree with his views,just not methods.
no offense taken can you post some links to these German books?

[mo9e64]

monitor lizards:natural history,captive care,and breeding by Bernd Eidenmullen, the other one i can't think of i think is by the same author.The one i can't remember i hear is known for it's great photos LOL.

[kriminaal]

The fact is, there is no one breeding Savs successfully. By that, I mean documented evidence of repeatedly breeding the same female. There are not many trying as it's expensive and hard to compete with $15 imports. So you can't really compare Daniel Bennetts fact findings of wild Savs with others claiming they "know" what a Sav diet is.

They can't "know" as they don't have evidence of breeding generations of Savs.
Reproduction for monitors is something they are programmed to do. It's not the hardest thing to accomplish. The harder thing to do is keeping them alive after they have and getting them to do it again.
So you see what I mean, there is no start to finish. Only start to somewhere in the middle.
The best thing we have to go on is the stomach contents of those wild-caught specimens Daniel Bennett examined.

[mo9e64]

You are right nobody is breeding the same female multiple times.Frank Retes says sometimes you don't see reproductive problems till up to the third clutch-these deathes caused by husbandry issues.i think the error is thinking Sav's are different than any other monitor.few would disagree that Prasinus are not a more difficult monitor to keep-yet they are being kept successfully feeding mice or lizards whole prey items-the only thing that hasn't lead to their success in breeding is nobody seems to have figured out their nesting preferences.
The area of reproductive problems is an area not covered because people don't get that far.and from discussions i have with people that understand this area,it contradicts alot of what is said-such under proper conditions female monitors need alot of food-these animals in the wild search and feed -and stop feeding when their needs are met.but if kept in conditions that are not acceptable they will continue feeding and store fat, be lethargic, if it's too cold or dry ,and starve if they aren't fed enough in hotter conditions.
The context of what i am saying is under proper husbandry-so exercise as many will interject is included.

[sickvenom]

Because you are a knowledgeable and responsible owner :)

rodents are fine for them as an occasional treat.

[infernalis]

I honestly fail to see what "treat" has to do with it??

He dives on Jumbo shrimp with gusto, so they must be a treat, He can't resist night crawlers, so they must be a treat.. Etc.

Easter is right around the corner, Should I colour some eggs and put them in a basket for him??

[sickvenom]

I honestly fail to see what "treat" has to do with it??

He dives on Jumbo shrimp with gusto, so they must be a treat, He can't resist night crawlers, so they must be a treat.. Etc.

Easter is right around the corner, Should I colour some eggs and put them in a basket for him??

I used to own a lot of savannahs back in the mid 90s. Back then we were feeding them a lot of rodents. Then reports came out about fld, so we cut back to once every month or two. I believe rodents are important in moderation, only to provide a variety. Unless there have been newer studies since 2000, that I am not aware of, I do not see any harm in feeding savs a rodent here or there. Do you have information that I don't have? I haven't owned any since 2000 therefore I am not up to date. Please inform me if you know something I don't. That would be a better approach than having max713 imply I'm not knowledgeable.

[Max713]

Where did I say you weren't knowledgeable? You're a reading too far into an 8 word sentence that wasn't even aimed in your direction.
All I was indicating is that Infernalis is a knowledgeable and responsible owner, that doesn't feed rodents as he knows it's not in their best interest health wise.
If your only reason for feeding rodents every month or two is to provide variety, I don't see the point. There are so many other things you can offer to add variety to the diet, and as Wayne said, there are plenty of other things a Sav would consider just as much of a "treat".
I'm sure there would be no harm in feeding a rodent every month or two, but I fail to see the benefit as well, other than for the personal enjoyment of the owner.

[infernalis]

That would be a better approach than having max713 imply I'm not knowledgeable.


Excellent point made.. A compliment directed toward one person should never be perceived as an insult directed at another.

May I ask you this? If you and a friend were at a club/bar/pub and a hot lady/guy (whatever) said your friend was cute, would you jump right in with "so I must be ugly"?? "what does he have that I don't"?? because if you did, I can assure you this, in time even the best friend in the world will tire of hearing it.

************************************************** ********

Now for variety. I feed Chomper this menu.

Raw jumbo unpeeled shrimp (Arthropod, same as insects) Expensive, but I don't care..

Dubia Roaches, Crayfish, Night crawlers, trout and venison.

The only "study" I need is Daniel Bennett's findings while actually in the African Savannah plains. Of 200 monitors who's stomach contents were examined, only one was found to contain any evidence of consuming vertebrate prey, 199 of them had only consumed arthropods and worms.

Now I ask, who knows better? Mother nature & evolution, or the human beings who thoughtlessly capture these wild animals for their own personal amusement and/or financial gain??

There may be no harm in feeding the occasional rodent, but there is also no harm in refraining to do so.

[Max713]

Excellent point made..
Thanks Wayne.


************************************************** ********

Now for variety. I feed Chomper this menu.

Raw jumbo unpeeled shrimp (Arthropod, same as insects) Expensive, but I don't care..

Dubia Roaches, Crayfish, Night crawlers, trout and venison.

The only "study" I need is Daniel Bennett's findings while actually in the African Savannah plains. Of 200 monitors who's stomach contents were examined, only one was found to contain any evidence of consuming vertebrate prey, 199 of them had only consumed arthropods and worms.

Now I ask, who knows better? Mother nature & evolution, or the human beings who thoughtlessly capture these wild animals for their own personal amusement and/or financial gain??

There may be no harm in feeding the occasional rodent, but there is also no harm in refraining to do so.

Sounds like Chomper is quite the spoiled Sav!
Thanks for the Daniel Bannett info, I think I'll be referencing this new info when arguing the disadvantages of feeding rodents, to new or rather inexperienced owners.

[sickvenom]

Where did I say you weren't knowledgeable? You're a reading too far into an 8 word sentence that wasn't even aimed in your direction.
All I was indicating is that Infernalis is a knowledgeable and responsible owner, that doesn't feed rodents as he knows it's not in their best interest health wise.
If your only reason for feeding rodents every month or two is to provide variety, I don't see the point. There are so many other things you can offer to add variety to the diet, and as Wayne said, there are plenty of other things a Sav would consider just as much of a "treat".
I'm sure there would be no harm in feeding a rodent every month or two, but I fail to see the benefit as well, other than for the personal enjoyment of the owner.

Maybe it was just the timing of your post. If I have falsely accused you, then I apologize.

[mo9e64]

I don't know why i do this to myself,but.There is nothing wrong with feeding Sav's exclusively rodents in the context of proper husbandry.Negative results are the result of improper husbandry.Sorry Wayne, nothing you feed your monitor,at least listed is part of a Sav's natural diet,but you are experiencing success. Moe

[infernalis]

Find me a source for steady african insects, I'll buy some.

The Savannah Monitor, as such, is an invertebrate feeder, foraging almost solely on insects, as well as mollusks and crustaceans. In this manner, this monitor occupies a very small niche in the monitor world. Unlike almost all other monitors, it has never been found to be an “opportunistic feeder”, nor is it the “garbage disposal” that other monitors have a reputation for being. Given all prey options, it specifically hunts down invertebrates, and only invertebrates.

Food choice and frequency seems to be an area of high controversy. To avoid simply stating opinion, we will always go back to study the animal’s behavior in the wild. As previously stated, the monitor itself is the greatest teacher. In feeding, the monitor keeper does not need to reinvent the wheel and come up with wild concoctions and diets. In the wild, the monitor eats what is nutritionally best, and our job as responsible keepers is to try to reproduce this as best we can.

Say what you want, I am not going to sway from what nature/evolution/god or whatever you chose to believe in has already mandated.

More soon Moe... I'm digging just for you

Cool, slugs and snails are listed, I have tons of those.....

[Little Wise Owl]

.Sorry Wayne, nothing you feed your monitor,at least listed is part of a Sav's natural diet,but you are experiencing success. Moe


And rodents are...?

Goodness, it seems that any Savannah Monitor thread is unable to avoid the rodent/no rodoent argument.

Wayne, Chomper looks fantastic and you're doing a wonderful job with him.

[infernalis]

And rodents are...?

Goodness, it seems that any Savannah Monitor thread is unable to avoid the rodent/no rodoent argument.

Wayne, Chomper looks fantastic and you're doing a wonderful job with him.


Thanks so much.

Since their natural physiology is not geared toward rodents, why would I feed them to my beloved pet??

[Little Wise Owl]

My thoughts exactly.

[Jay]

I highly doubt a monitor in the wild eats whats nutritionally best vs readily available prey. Unlike most monitor owners I will agree with both diets but why change what works for me?

[Little Wise Owl]

200 Sav. monitors' stomach contents examined means nothing, I guess.

[Jay]

and i still highly doubt a monitors in the wild eats whats nutritionally best vs readily available prey

[Little Wise Owl]

I guess 200 Savannah Monitors were just self conscious and decided to eat healthy that month.

[mo9e64]

If what you feed your monitor works,power to you.I am just saying you have more options-rodents being one of them.Someone explain too me the success of Prasinus on mice,they have just as much a specialized diet as Sav's and more delicate.

[infernalis]

Oh time for more quotes.. ;) XD

The feeding of rodents to a Savannah Monitor is an increasingly controversial topic, centered around both profit motive and a profound lack of knowledge. No one is sure the origins of the idea to feed vertebrates to an invertebrate feeder, but it’s evident today that the few loud, dominant proponents of an all-rodent feeding regimen actually own lucrative frozen rodent feeder businesses. It would be worth it to maintain a healthy skepticism when receiving any information on this monitor, before determining just who has what financial stake in the purchases you are making for your reptile.

As Bennett observed, the Savannah Monitor is an invertebrate feeder and had fed on mammals with a frequency of less than .2%. If the animal feeds primarily on insects and mollusks in the wild, why feed it anything else in captivity?

The first argument is that keepers in captivity have a great opportunity to offer food items to the monitor that are “nutritionally superior”, an opportunity to give the monitor variety it doesn’t have in the wild. It is argued that rodents are part of this nutritionally superior feeding plan.

The truth is nothing but the opposite. It doesn’t take a zoology degree to take a quick look at our “success” in captive care of the Savannah Monitor and see a long string of obesity, subsequent health problems and causes of death related to feeding monitors a diet incredibly high in fat. If this rodent-based feeding plan is supposed to be superior, are we really doing all that well? Compare the lean body structure and limb strength of any wild Savannah Monitor with a tubby, fat-bodied, stick-legged captive, and it will be more than evident that something in the food/metabolic cycle is severely off.

The second argument is that the Savannah Monitor only eats insects and mollusks due to low availability of rodents in the wild.

On the contrary, rodents and many other prey are plentiful in the regions in which the monitor inhabits, and the senses of the Savannah Monitor are acute in that a quick flick of the tongue and the monitor would know exactly what sort of animal is at the bottom of the burrow it is peeking into.

The Savannah Monitor is simply a specialized feeder, unlike the majority of other monitors. It eats what is best for it, and what its body has adapted to eat, namely insects and mollusks.

[Jay]

I would not only feed my sav rodents but he does get 4 - 5 rat pups a week

[Little Wise Owl]

Here's the study: http://library.mampam.com/bennettbullchicherpsoc.pdf

[Jay]

cool where is your study

[mo9e64]

Little wise owl,have you ever considered availabilty or ability of Sav's to catch and consume rodents in the wild.What commonsense says that means they cannot digest and utilize them.

Have you guys seen any footage of wild Sav's they are not the lumps of inactivity that you describe but animals that are vigorous and have high energy requirements to sustain them.Contrary to conditions some give them in captivity.I might come off as a know it all,but is there no commonsense,maybe failure is because you're doing something wrong.

If given the conditions they require it would take huge amounts of insects to meet their needs(in the wild they can forage for food,constantly)Some people fail to realize their care puts the monitors in various states of emergency,thus they don't need as much food-and in the case of rodents store them as fat-till conditions improve.In the wild they only have this forced upon them in a drought.Can you imagine the available food in the rainy season

[Jay]

I assume most people feed them daily< w.e the case stop ruining this thread lol

[Max713]

Little wise owl,have you ever considered availabilty or ability of Sav's to catch and consume rodents in the wild.What commonsense says that means they cannot digest and utilize them.

Have you guys seen any footage of wild Sav's they are not the lumps of inactivity that you describe but animals that are vigorous and have high energy requirements to sustain them.Contrary to conditions some give them in captivity.I might come off as a know it all,but is there no commonsense,maybe failure is because you're doing something wrong.

If given the conditions they require it would take huge amounts of insects to meet their needs(in the wild they can forage for food,constantly)Some people fail to realize their care puts the monitors in various states of emergency,thus they don't need as much food-and in the case of rodents store them as fat-till conditions improve.In the wild they only have this forced upon them in a drought.Can you imagine the available food in the rainy season

Have you not read the multiple posts before yours stating there is an abundance of vertebrates inhabiting the exact region Sav's are found, that they have plenty of opportunities to feed on them, but they choose not to?
You have been shown multiple studies proving Sav's do not eat vertebrates by their own choice. I don't see how you can argue this further, you have no leg to stand on.
Feeding them vertebrates in captivity does not improve their diet in any way, and offers absolutely no benefits. The only case I could see feeding rodents appropriate is in the case of an extremely malnourished animal, that needs to put weight on fast. Even then it is probably not the best thing for them.

[mo9e64]

jay0133 i don't know what you mean.But if i were to guess under proper conditions it's hard to overfeed a monitor in the proper conditions.Females especially for reproductive purposes.They quit feeding when they have enough-if conditions are improper they get fat and lethargic.
Not ever discussed on this site is deaths of females due to reproductive issues.Most older monitors are males-

[mo9e64]

that makes no sense if that were true they would not eat rodents in captivity.maybe they are not able to catch the rodents or abundance of insects and such require less energy you guys use one source as your bible-and ignore those that breed larger monitors on mice

[Little Wise Owl]

I think those who are adamant about feeding rodents to specialized feeders such as V. exanthematicus should do their own personal study. The first 5 years of it's life will probably not yield any health issues.

This is the same case with cats and dogs fed an inappropriate diet. "My dog's doing fine on grocery store brand food" but then later in life their dog is ill and itchy and they just don't know why.

[Jay]

i believe chomper would eat himself to death ill take some pics tomorrow and show you how "fat" mine is also when the weather warms up a vid of how fast he can run

[Jay]

I think those who are adamant about feeding rodents to specialized feeders such as V. exanthematicus should do their own personal study. The first 5 years of it's life will probably not yield any health issues.

This is the same case with cats and dogs fed an inappropriate diet. "My dog's doing fine on grocery store brand food" but then later in life their dog is ill and itchy and they just don't know why.

I like that kibbles and itches

[Little Wise Owl]

I don't doubt how healthy and active Chomper is at this age.

He's what, 4 months now?

[mo9e64]

i've mentioned this before,Sav's have no more specialized diet than any other monitor.i've read stomach contents studies of other monitors-not really that different bugs lizards snakes athropods -people who rely on limited resources don't have the whole picture or ability to sort the facts or increase their knowledge

[Jay]

so savs 15- 20yrs plus fed strictly worms turkey chicken organs and rodents are unhealthy my cousin had a sav for 6 months when he died he was fed crickets mealworms and a mouse hopper once a month ?

[Jay]

I don't doubt how healthy and active Chomper is at this age.

He's what, 4 months now?
close to a year

[Little Wise Owl]

so savs 15- 20yrs plus fed strictly worms turkey chicken organs and rodents are unhealthy my cousin had a sav for 6 months when he died he was fed crickets mealworms and a mouse hopper once a month ?

This is going absolutely no where.

I'm sorry for the derail, Wayne. I'm stepping out of this thread because it appears that such opinions will not be reconsidered from this pointless bickering.

[infernalis]

My back yard includes a 14 acre meadow, a grassland.. as close to the Savannah plains as you are going to get in central New York state, We let chomper run and forage out there as often as the weather permits, he has a vast choice of food to prey on out there.

Time and again, he chases down bugs, he sucks down every beetle, grasshopper, cricket, and Dorothy just pointed out to me, slugs clinging to the blades of grass that he encounters.

He will dig through the rocks at the creek and catch his own crayfish.

Their teeth are specifically "designed" to crush insects and mollusks, not tear flesh.

I believe in science and forensics, not voodoo and made up fairy tales.. sorry.

google my signature if Latin escapes you, I live by that creed my friends...

[Jay]

This is going absolutely no where.

I'm sorry for the derail, Wayne. I'm stepping out of this thread because it appears that such opinions will not be reconsidered from this pointless bickering.
Agreed, Wayne when you feed chomper night crawlers how many does he get a dozen ?

[mo9e64]

that's good,foraging outdoors we can just agree to disagree- i think you misunderstood that i have nothing against your diet- i am not quit sure what Jay is talking about or to whom LOL

[infernalis]

six at a time, In the "spirit" of variety, each feeding consists of around 6 adult Dubia roaches, 6-8 of the jumbo shrimp, the night crawlers and that's it.

I feed trout to my garter snakes, and give Chomper the leftovers, but just the flesh, no skin, no bones. He only gets the venison about every other month, usually when my Dubia colony is "recovering" (I need a bigger colony)

He only gets to power feed in the summer when he goes outside. Since he gets infinitely more exercise running around out on our property, we allow him to eat as he pleases.

during the winter when he spends far more time cooped up, it's diet time. Maybe when I get his room ready I may up the diet.

What the plan entails is to frame up a 10 - 12 foot corner of the basement, lay down radiant heat pipes and pour a slab over it. effectively creating a giant "hot rock" that will be plumbed directly into my house boiler system, with an integrated thermostat I can maintain that floor at whatever temperature I chose.

We have an abundance of prime soil from the creek banks that is rich in clay and will hold a burrow forever, so I would take a front end loader and scoop up a few cubic yards of this and dump it down on the floor until it's several feet deep.

Then I would install a camera up high on the ceiling looking down, to observe him at will without actually disturbing him.

This would be as close to a zoo paddock as I could possibly replicate inside my home.

The laws of physics mandate I put it down there, my floor could never support the weight if I filled one of the bedrooms with soil.

[Reptile_Reptile]

superb idea