Poor little guy :(

[Hillsberry]

I have had my leopard gecko for 5 months now. Last night 2/8/11 I noticed he wasn't using his hind legs while he was walking. I took him out to see what was wrong but couldn't find a problem. I noticed that his lower back is arched up. I also saw that his vent was puffy and swollen. I brought him to the vet to day and she told me he possible has metabolic bone disease. She wasn't sure what else could be wrong with him. So she told me to go to a specialist. So I will be bring him to the specialist hopefully by this weekend. But I was wondering if anyone might have an idea of why he might have the arch on his back and or why he won't use his back legs. He doesn't seem like he is in any pain. He is still his normal self which is a crazy little guy but he just can't walk right. I saw little tiny movement in his legs but not much. Oh and he doesn't seem like he can lift the front of his body up. If he has metablic bone disease can it be revresed in anyway so that maybe he can get some movement back that would make it so much easier for him? Do you think it would be better for me to just put him down?:no: Here are some pictures I took today.

11601


11602

[Hillsberry]

Oh I have a UVB and UVA light on him now. The one vet said she would recomend giving him a vitamin D shot to help his bones. We took an x-ray and he almost can't see the bones in his back legs and front.

[NennaMeerkat]

Could be a lack of other vitamins as well. Do you dust crickets with calcium powder?

[Hillsberry]

Someone told me if was okay just to let the crickets eat the calcium and then feed it to him. But that isn't enough as I can see so now. Do you recomend any calciums?

[NennaMeerkat]

No I haven't had to deal with that in a while. I would assume any would do. Though they might have some formulated for different lizards I don't know. Just have to look and see.

[Sapphyr]

Yea, I was going to say either a prolonged lack of calcium and other vitamins or a prolonged lack of UVA/UVB. Every time I feed my lizards crickets I dust them all in a blend of calcium and multivitamins. Calcium is an absolute must, though, not sure about if multivitamins is a must, as well, or an optional thing.

Oh, and I don't think it can be reversed, just assisted. I could be wrong.

Edit: I found this really nice article about Metabolic Bone Disease, so it may be worth reading, to you. I'm just now beginning to read it.

Metabolic Bone Disease - Reptiles and Amphibians (http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art37704.asp)

[marvelfreak]

So sorry to hear about your leo. Hopefully he'll get better. Got my fingers cross for him. Best of luck and keep us posted.

[Lankyrob]

WE feed our feeder insects on high quality organic insect food along with fresh fruit and veg three or four times a week. They will also be dusted with calicum and multivitamin dust before being fed to the lizards.

[Will0W783]

Hillary, Repti-Cal is probably the best one out there I know of. I wish you the best of luck and hope he gets better.

[totheend]

Hillsberry it looks and sounds like MBD to me. Your leo isn't getting enough calcuim/D3. You can't reverse what has happened but you can stop it and save his life. When you feed crickets you need to dust the crickets with calcium and every so often with calcium with D3. Also leos know when they need calcium so it is always a good idea to leave a little dish in their enclosure with calcium in it (just plain calcium with NO D3) and they will eat it.

Good luck and I hope your little guy feels better soon.

[Hillsberry]

Thanks guys! I will keep you posted. I have him going to a reptile vet tomorrow. Hopefully I can't get him better! Thanks for all your help!

[percey39]

Sorry to hear mate, i wish you both the best of luck with the vet visit.

[Reptile_Reptile]

How is he doin mate

[mld]

Do you have a picture of his underside, I was thinking that if he had a bad impaction, which can cause paralysis and it could cause swelling and also with his vent looking sore. Is he pooping regularly? if not a nice warm bath may get him going, you can also try some canned pure pumpkin (not pie filling) it a great laxative.
Either way he should be seen by a vet, looks very uncomfortable.
Sending well wishes for a healthy recovery! And a little prayer to go with it!

[Hillsberry]

Bad news guys I did everything I could for him but nothing worked. He stopped eating and is losing weight. I will be putting him down tomorrow. I feel really bad. I feel like I let the little guy down. I just hate to see him like this. So I think the best thing is to let him go. Thank you everyone for the help. May he rest in peace.

[NennaMeerkat]

Aw Hills I am so sorry :( At least you are putting him down instead of letting him suffer. And though you may feel like you let him down look at it as a learning experience for the future. And don't let it make you wary of owning another.

I hope the best for you and am sorry that you are going through this.

[Hillsberry]

Thank you NennaMeerkat. I always do what's best for the animal even if it means losing one. I just hope he knows I tried my very best to make him as happy and healthy as possible. Thanks again

[Sapphyr]

Sorry to hear that Hillary. :c He certainly was a cute little guy, and I'm sure he understood and is thankful he's no longer suffering.

On another note, I really hope this doesn't deter you from enjoying one of these little critters. They're really a joy to have.

[marvelfreak]

I am so sorry Hillary my heart goes out to you.

[Will0W783]

Aw, Hillary, I'm so sorry to hear! I'm sure he had a good life with you and knows you did your best....sometimes these things happen. I keep my geckos on calcium sand, and dust the crickets when I feed, but sometimes my fiance feeds them and he never bothers to dust. They really are great lizards to have; don't let this deter you from trying again after you heal from this loss.

[Sapphyr]

I keep my geckos on calcium sand, and dust the crickets when I feed, but sometimes my fiance feeds them and he never bothers to dust.

Not to stray from the subject, but you do know calcium sand can become impacted in their gut, right?

[Will0W783]

Really? I was told it was good for them, because they can eat it when they need more calcium. What substrate would you recommend? I am admittedly more of a snake person than a lizard person...my fiance bought the geckos.

[totheend]

Agreed Calcium sand can cause impaction. I think it is one of the worst products out there. Leos love to eat calcium and having it right in the sand just encourages them to eat the sand.

I use ceramic tiles...they work great. Easy to clean, leos can't get impacted from them, cheap and looks good too.

[mld]

So sorry that you have to go through this! Poor little guy, at least he will go comfortably and not suffer. Stay strong in knowing that you did the best thing for him.
Will you be having a Necropsy done to find out what the exact cause of this?

On the Calcium Sand thing, it is worse than play sand for impactions because it contains calcium which they will want to eat. Best bet is to just keep a little bottle cap with pure calcium in it.

[Lankyrob]

Not sure with geckos but i use calcium sand in my lizards vivs, not just sand but as part of the flooring, as if they should ingest some it is meant to be harmless to them. Maybe its because they are bigger lizards than geckos?

[Sapphyr]

Well I really wanted to use Calcium sand for my leo when I first got him, 'cause calcium is good for them, but many people I talked to, and even reading things, it said that it -can- be ingested and become impacted by your leo, which can be fatal if not treated. I didn't want to take any chances, so I went with repticarpet. Don't know if it's specific to leos, but that's what I know about leos and calcium sand, or sand of any kind for that matter.

[NennaMeerkat]

Not to stray from the subject, but you do know calcium sand can become impacted in their gut, right?

Coming from several breeders from a reptile expo I went to this past weekend I had asked them about bedding for various lizards, frogs, and snakes. This is what they told me...

Mostly for sand boas and various lizards the breeders had said that impaction is a secondary issue. Healthy animals that aren't compromised in some way (liver problems ect.) can ingest some of the sand and be just fine, passing it without problem. Lizards do ingest some sand while eating but they do not gulp down mouthfuls at a time. The only time impactions happen is when the animal is not healthy in other ways. If you do get an impaction then you have to look at other things as well because it is a symptom.

Leos in the wild do not have carpet, tile, or newspaper in the wild. They eat dirt and whatnot in their normal environment. If it were such a big problem how would the species survive?

[Sapphyr]

Coming from several breeders from a reptile expo I went to this past weekend I had asked them about bedding for various lizards, frogs, and snakes. This is what they told me...

Mostly for sand boas and various lizards the breeders had said that impaction is a secondary issue. Healthy animals that aren't compromised in some way (liver problems ect.) can ingest some of the sand and be just fine, passing it without problem. Lizards do ingest some sand while eating but they do not gulp down mouthfuls at a time. The only time impactions happen is when the animal is not healthy in other ways. If you do get an impaction then you have to look at other things as well because it is a symptom.

Leos in the wild do not have carpet, tile, or newspaper in the wild. They eat dirt and whatnot in their normal environment. If it were such a big problem how would the species survive?

Eh well... I'd personally still not want to take the risk. I'm happy with my repticarpet and lid of calcium. I'd hate to think of losing my little leo.

[NennaMeerkat]

Everyone has their personal choices and are entitled to them. When I get my own leos I plan on doing a mix of the sand and another substrate. To me tile in a lizard's home is denying the lizard of natural behaviors of digging and such.

[totheend]

Coming from several breeders from a reptile expo I went to this past weekend I had asked them about bedding for various lizards, frogs, and snakes. This is what they told me...

Mostly for sand boas and various lizards the breeders had said that impaction is a secondary issue. Healthy animals that aren't compromised in some way (liver problems ect.) can ingest some of the sand and be just fine, passing it without problem. Lizards do ingest some sand while eating but they do not gulp down mouthfuls at a time. The only time impactions happen is when the animal is not healthy in other ways. If you do get an impaction then you have to look at other things as well because it is a symptom.

Leos in the wild do not have carpet, tile, or newspaper in the wild. They eat dirt and whatnot in their normal environment. If it were such a big problem how would the species survive?

Absolutely, reptiles will eat some dirt. But the problem with calcium sand....is that is has calcium in it! So animals like leos love to eat calcium so therefore they eat the sand. Not just eat a little while hunting, but set out to eat the sand because of the calcium. Regular sand is safer.

Maybe we should stop derailing this thread and start a new one if the discussion is going to continue....

[Will0W783]

Thank you guys for your advice and input...I will change the sand to another substrate right away. I too don't want to take any chances with my little guys.

[NennaMeerkat]

Thank you guys for your advice and input...I will change the sand to another substrate right away. I too don't want to take any chances with my little guys.

I would still say do a mixture. But that is up to you. And I want to see pictures of your leopard :)

[Aaron_S]

Eh well... I'd personally still not want to take the risk. I'm happy with my repticarpet and lid of calcium. I'd hate to think of losing my little leo.

You do understand that repti carpet harbours terrible amounts of bacteria so you're not doing your lizard any good with it. You should be replacing it with new repti carpet every week if you keep using it.

Hillberry, never listen to anyone who said to allow the crickets to just eat the calcium. I would not listen to their advice again.

[Sapphyr]

You do understand that repti carpet harbours terrible amounts of bacteria so you're not doing your lizard any good with it. You should be replacing it with new repti carpet every week if you keep using it.

Hillberry, never listen to anyone who said to allow the crickets to just eat the calcium. I would not listen to their advice again.

Even if you thoroughly clean it every other day? ,:l

[Aaron_S]

Yep still harbours terrible germs. You can't clean everything out of fabric like that. It has too many places to hide. Besides, after so many washes you're just running it down anyway and it's integrity will start to fail.

[Sapphyr]

Yep still harbours terrible germs. You can't clean everything out of fabric like that. It has too many places to hide. Besides, after so many washes you're just running it down anyway and it's integrity will start to fail.

Hmm... Got any suggestions that doesn't concern substrate that can be ingested? I just really don't want to cause harm to my leo and don't want to risk impaction either. I've switched to just some basic paper towels for now and will switch it out daily 'til I know a better solution. Completely sanitized his cage too.

[Aaron_S]

Newspaper, paper towel, mulch.

[Sapphyr]

Newspaper, paper towel, mulch.

Mulch can be used without being ingested/impacted? Like what kind of mulch? 'Cause I know that there's some kinds you'd want to stay away from, something about parasites/pests, just not sure.

[totheend]

Hmm... Got any suggestions that doesn't concern substrate that can be ingested? I just really don't want to cause harm to my leo and don't want to risk impaction either. I've switched to just some basic paper towels for now and will switch it out daily 'til I know a better solution. Completely sanitized his cage too.

Ceramic tiles work great.

[Sapphyr]

Ceramic tiles work great.

After reading so many posts, I've seen this pop up quite a few times, and it always makes me think of a slab of some form of stone/earthen material, kinda like what I used as a cooling spot for my chinchilla... I'm probably wrong.

So where would one get ceramic tiles and how much is the cost?

[Aaron_S]

I've never used tiles so I can't suggest them. I don't see why they wouldn't work though.

Personally, I've just used sand. Mulch, as in cypress mulch you find the stores. I have used countless bags of it in the past and I never once had a problem with pests or parasites.

[totheend]

Just regular ceramic tiles that you get from Lowes or wherever...
I just buy the ones with some texture (so that they aren't all slippery and hard to walk on for the leos). They are really cheap. I have used them with leos for years and have used them with fat tails and other geckos too.

[Sapphyr]

Just regular ceramic tiles that you get from Lowes or wherever...
I just buy the ones with some texture (so that they aren't all slippery and hard to walk on for the leos). They are really cheap. I have used them with leos for years and have used them with fat tails and other geckos too.

Mmk then~ I like a more natural look than paper, so I'll probably get something sand colored. :>

[mld]

Mmk then~ I like a more natural look than paper, so I'll probably get something sand colored. :>

There are so many great natural looking tiles out there, texture is the way to go plus it also helps with filing their nails down. I just used left over tile from our last house, which is slate. looks great, tumbled marble is nice also a little porous though. Just don't get wall tiles, they tend to be too smooth.

[Lankyrob]

I use reptibark for my lizards, the pieces are big enough not to be swallowed, i then section of part of the floor area with natural rocks and build a sand area using calcium sand, iff the lizard wants to dig etc it can in this area, i put the sand under the heatlamp as it retains heat as a substrate better than the bark.

[Sapphyr]

There are so many great natural looking tiles out there, texture is the way to go plus it also helps with filing their nails down. I just used left over tile from our last house, which is slate. looks great, tumbled marble is nice also a little porous though. Just don't get wall tiles, they tend to be too smooth.

Oh I hadn't planned to, was going to get floor tiles :>

And your set up seems good Rob, but you know my opinion on sand ;c Do like the thought of digging though.

[Lankyrob]

When we put the bugs in for feeding they go in the end opposite where the sand is, it is very very rare for one of them to make it the four foot odd to the end where the sand is and if they did i dont think the lizards would ever get enough sand to make it an issue.

[Sapphyr]

When we put the bugs in for feeding they go in the end opposite where the sand is, it is very very rare for one of them to make it the four foot odd to the end where the sand is and if they did i dont think the lizards would ever get enough sand to make it an issue.

Ah. Yanno, I think I've read you stating this before xD lol