Ball Python Questions- hiding in the cold...

[clmclark]

For the most part I've just been leaving her alone to get used to her surroundings. I've moved her into my bedroom because it's the quietest room in the apartment (sad I know lol).
In her set up I have a warm hide, cool humidity box, water dish and basking vines/branches... She was hiding under the water dish in the coldest spot in in her set up. I swapped out her hollow bottom dish for a flat dish. She then moved to the humidity box. I checked the other day and it's about 72 degrees in there. I'm concerned that she's too cold or that I'm keeping the other side too warm (85). I took out the humidity box to try to get her to move around a bit. She was very active last night. It was nice to hear her on the go... woke up to find her burrowed under her flat bottom water dish...which she successfully did with out spilling any water. I was impressed... should I be concerned that she's too cold? How do I get her to come out of hiding sooner? I'm trying to be patient. I'm I'm harming her or lessening her chances of coming out if I take her out?

[Ch^4]

72 is a little cold for the cold side temperature. I'd try to get it up to 75-76. I have BPs that hide on the cold side all the time, while others hide on the hot side all the time. It just depends on the animal.

How long have you had her? The moving and reorganizing can be stressful; try to give her a week of isolation. You cannot "force" her to be active, this is something she will do (or not do) on her own.

[Will0W783]

I would have your basking spot be 88-90, with the hot end around the basking spot 85-87 and your cool end no lower than 80 during the day. The temperatures you say you are keeping her at are likely causing a forced hibernation. She can't be active at those temps, because snakes need external heat to raise their body temperature and keep their metabolism going. Once you correct the temperatures you should see her come around a bit. But keep in mind that BPs are some of the laziest pythons- they mostly just sit around in their hide boxes, no matter how ideal the husbandry. They are very calm and docile, but that translates to a mostly inactive snake in its home cage.

[Sapphyr]

I personally have nothing to contribute to this other than a semi-related question regarding his set up. I mean, I may have one thing to contribute, and that's that BPs are generally lazy... Very lazy. Also, if you just got her, you probably are causing stress by rearranging things and trying to force her into being on the go. If anything, I'd worry more about your temps and humidity than where things are placed, for now. Oh, and almost forgot, it may be comforting for you to hear her 'on the go', but what's comforting for you, may not be comfortable for her. We're not the same thing.

Now, my statement is about him having her in the quietest room... I thought snakes couldn't hear.. Am I right or should I be concerned about my yappy puppy? I've read they can't hear, but instead, pick up on vibrations, so having electronics(game systems, tv, computers, etc.) on the same shelf, table, etc. as the snake's enclosure would be stressful for it.

[clmclark]

My ex boyfriend urged me to find a forum to join and I said I thought it was silly. I can't tell you how happy I am that I found this! Thank you guys sooo much. I'm so relieved to have a place to find answers. It's funny, no matter how much research you do before hand, no matter how prepared you think you are...things just creep up on me and I feel lost.
Forced hybernation is exactly what I would describe what she's doing. She hadn't come out at all, I've been peeking in on her in the middle of the night, no movement. I just figured she's prefered it cold but it seems unhealthy. I"m going to bump up the temps on that side. Any suggestions? All I can think to do is get another lamp with a lower watt bulb or just move the one I have over a bit more.

[clmclark]

Now, my statement is about him having her in the quietest room... I thought snakes couldn't hear.. Am I right or should I be concerned about my yappy puppy? I've read they can't hear, but instead, pick up on vibrations, so having electronics(game systems, tv, computers, etc.) on the same shelf, table, etc. as the snake's enclosure would be stressful for it.

By quiet I mean the least active room. Sleeping and changing only. Only a 2 BR apt. The other rooms constantly have lights on and off, company and chaos. I'm a paper crafter so i make noise with my tools and all that. Also keeps company from deciding they want to play with her, or knowing I have her at all.

[Sapphyr]

By quiet I mean the least active room. Sleeping and changing only. Only a 2 BR apt. The other rooms constantly have lights on and off, company and chaos. I'm a paper crafter so i make noise with my tools and all that. Also keeps company from deciding they want to play with her, or knowing I have her at all.

Ahhh. I keep mine in my room, as well, but I've got a cat that wanders in and out, my two dogs(one who's a yappy little 'toy' pup), and 4 ferrets. The taller dog doesn't even really know he's there, so no big issue, and the ferrets can't reach him. The cat -would- lay on the top of his cage if I didn't keep a wet towel on it. So, I think he's fine. If they can hear, though, then I'd be concerned for my snake. It's why I'm making sure, 'cause my puppy barks at the slightest sound outside my door. That's just how toy breeds are.

[Will0W783]

Yep, bumping the temps up should make her much more comfortable. What size tank do you have and what wattage bulb do you have now? For example, when I lived in an apartment that was usually at 70-72 degrees room temperature, I had my BP in a 40-gallon breeder tank. I used a 150 watt infrared heat bulb and it got the temps up to about 90-92 right under the bulb, 88-90 around it and about 85 on the far side.

[clmclark]

Yep, bumping the temps up should make her much more comfortable. What size tank do you have and what wattage bulb do you have now? For example, when I lived in an apartment that was usually at 70-72 degrees room temperature, I had my BP in a 40-gallon breeder tank. I used a 150 watt infrared heat bulb and it got the temps up to about 90-92 right under the bulb, 88-90 around it and about 85 on the far side.

I have an 18x18x18 exo terra. Front side is generally 85-87, 88-90 on the basking branches and 90-92 right underthe bulb. I use a 100 watt bulb and I don't cover the screen top. Humidity is 30-40% now that I'm spraying twice a day.

[clmclark]

Here is her set up. The water dish is hidden behind the vines. Oh and I don't keep her next to the tequila anymore :)

[Ch^4]

Yep, bumping the temps up should make her much more comfortable. What size tank do you have and what wattage bulb do you have now? For example, when I lived in an apartment that was usually at 70-72 degrees room temperature, I had my BP in a 40-gallon breeder tank. I used a 150 watt infrared heat bulb and it got the temps up to about 90-92 right under the bulb, 88-90 around it and about 85 on the far side.

I think this is a little high; I've found that my BPs prefer a cold side substrate temp of 77-78, and a cold side air temp of 75-76. Much warmer than this, and they hug the cold side wall day and night.

Warm side temps are consistent, but I *personally* feel that a larger than 3-5 degree temp gradient is necessary for proper thermal regulation. Many suggest an ambient air temp (average) of 80 and an 8-10 degree gradient (Markus Jayne, VPI, LLLReptile, etc.).

Again, it does depend on the particular animal. My adult BP likes it a couple degrees cooler than all my young ones. One of my young ones spends all her time in the warm hide, while another is in the cold hide (identical conditions).

And to the OP, my adult BP is the most active snake I own!!! Give yours some time to settle in, they are very shy snakes! :)

[clmclark]

And to the OP, my adult BP is the most active snake I own!!! Give yours some time to settle in, they are very shy snakes! :)

My brother's BP was very active as well. My brother had him for the attention he got for having an exotic pet... he used to ride around on his bike with hima nd walk aroound with him around his neck all summer. He was always moving around and seeem to be checking out what we were up to. He was also an adult and a rescue, my Fluffy is only 7 months.

Tonight I"m gonna try to feed her. Fingers crossed!
*waiting until after 8pm, in seperate container. Live today just because I really want her to eat and thats what she's used to. I'll switch to F/T soon. I really don't want to end up with a pet mouse though.

[TeaNinja]

i have my bp in a 20 gallon tank i believe? with a screen lid and a 100 watt ceramic bulb on it. i was thinking of bumping it up to a 150 watt eventually but he seems fine atm. i barely ever see the snake cruising around. the times that i do are in the MIDDLE of the night, cuz i stay up all night long. he eats like a CHAMP and poops regularly and is adjusting VERY nicely to handling and everything since i got him a couple weeks ago. after i let him settle in he was pretty panicy and got super stressed out when i would handle him (he probably thought i was going to eat him)
i've just been taking the handling slow and steady and he's coming around beautifully.
he doesn't huff and puff at all anymore and he's MUCH more active and inquisitive when i've been handling lately.

[clmclark]

I've only handled her twice, briefly, since I got her 2 weeks ago. After feeding tonight I'm going to leave her be 100% for the next week. I really really hope she eats for me.

[Will0W783]

Very nice cage setup. I do have one thing to point out...not sure if it's the case with your BP, but wanted to mention it anyway. BPs like smaller cages. The cage still has to be an adequate size, but they like lower, smaller cages than a lot of other species. I used to house my adult male (4 foot) BP in a 55-gallon tank, and he was an insanely picky eater. He would take 2 live pure white mice every other week. He would not eat 3, he would not eat every week, he would not eat them if they had a speck of color on them. In short, he was a major pain in the dookas. However, when I moved him to a 30-gallon breeder tank (3'x1.5' by 1' high), he started eating f/t rats within 2 weeks. He now is in a melamine cage that is 2.5' x 2' x 15" high and eats like a champ. I am wondering if the fact that your cage is so tall might be making your BP feel a bit insecure? Not saying that's the case, but it has happened before.

[clmclark]

What would be a good size for her with out being too big- but also putting off another upgrade?

[Ch^4]

My brother's BP was very active as well. My brother had him for the attention he got for having an exotic pet... he used to ride around on his bike with hima nd walk aroound with him around his neck all summer. He was always moving around and seeem to be checking out what we were up to. He was also an adult and a rescue, my Fluffy is only 7 months.

Tonight I"m gonna try to feed her. Fingers crossed!
*waiting until after 8pm, in seperate container. Live today just because I really want her to eat and thats what she's used to. I'll switch to F/T soon. I really don't want to end up with a pet mouse though.

PLEASE do not do either of these (ride a bike with him around your neck or have him around your neck, period). If your brother fell, he could easily kill the snake. I'm sure the BP did not enjoy the breeze either. Also, if the BP got scared, he could constrict around the neck and cut off oxygen supply. This would lead to a crash that would most likely be fatal to the snake and potentially fatal to the rider.

I'm not yelling at you, but just wanting to make sure you and your snake are safe!

[Aaron_S]

Do you have hiding places, nice tight ones on both the cold side and the hot side? A snake will always pick security over the temperatures and that would be why it burrows under the water dish. It's very tight fitting under there.

[clmclark]

PLEASE do not do either of these (ride a bike with him around your neck or have him around your neck, period). If your brother fell, he could easily kill the snake. I'm sure the BP did not enjoy the breeze either. Also, if the BP got scared, he could constrict around the neck and cut off oxygen supply. This would lead to a crash that would most likely be fatal to the snake and potentially fatal to the rider.

I'm not yelling at you, but just wanting to make sure you and your snake are safe!

My brother was (and still is) a complete tool!! He was like 13 years old but my mom should've known better to let him.

[clmclark]

Ok, I'm trying to feed her now. Waited until 8pm, lights low and no movement around. Just patiently waiting... she knows the mouse is there and she's watching it. It's been about 30 minutes... she's started to look bored. At what point should I just give up?

[Reptile_Reptile]

is it F/T? if so leave it overnight, if its live take it out if she isnt eating it

[clmclark]

She didn't eat. :( Oh well. I'll just try again. She didn't seem stressed out at all. Didn't ball up, just checked things out. I got the mouse out of there, washed up and took her out of the box. Went to put her away and she moved up my arm, around my hands and what not instead of going into her terra... held her for a bit and she never balled up or seemed tense. She's back in there and basking now.

[citysnakes]

I have an 18x18x18 exo terra. Front side is generally 85-87, 88-90 on the basking branches and 90-92 right underthe bulb. I use a 100 watt bulb and I don't cover the screen top. Humidity is 30-40% now that I'm spraying twice a day.

you should try to provide a 90-92 degree hot spot on the floor of the enclosure. your snake will spend most of its time hiding on the ground and may not climb up the branches under the bulb to bask so ideally youd want proper temps in the places where your animal spends the majority of its time.

also, youd have an easier time maintaining higher levels of humidity if you covered most of the screen top.

[Steph]

what i do is feed my snake in a tub i give him some privacy but i also have the lamp on the floor facing towards the mouse to give it some heat on the side the F/T mouse is in that's the only way my snake would eat

[Aaron_S]

That's the only way your snake will eat? That's quite the ritual.

[Steph]

i didn't mean actual tub where i bathe in lol i meant tub container i leave the mouse in the corner my snake tries to get out but i put a towel over the container for some privacy and place the heat lamp on the floor on the same side the mouse is in within 3 min my snake just opens his little mouth he doesn't constrict he just opens his mouth and eats him

[clmclark]

I hope I can get Fluffy to eat soon. I'm really sick of this annoying little mouse.

[Lankyrob]

Lol, my BP just went twelve weeks without eating, you may want to get a wheel to exercise the mouse in!!

[TeaNinja]

my bp just ate for the 4th time in a row for me yesterday, he eats like a champ.

[Reptile_Reptile]

My Royal has never missed a meal either, i swear he is part carpet he gets a lil crazy when i get the food out of the freezer.

[TeaNinja]

My Royal has never missed a meal either, i swear he is part carpet he gets a lil crazy when i get the food out of the freezer.

i feed mine in a shoebox. as soon as i drop him in he assumes the S position and gets the mouse like 2 seconds after i drop it in every time.

the last time i fed him before yesterday he was facing the wall and the mouse was the other way, so i figured i'd put my finger on his butt and spin him around. he saw the heat from my hand and took a pot shot!! lol

i dodged his bite like a ninja and took a step or two back and said "i guess he's got it on his own" then he Flipped around and got the mouse lol.

it was super random, my subconcious must have been thinking about the missed bite, cuz i had a dream that my BP bit me last night. lol

[Reptile_Reptile]

i have to put the rat in his tank while he is in a hide. cause he will tag it out of my hand. and if i place the rat then put him in the tank he will coil it from my had witch is a trip.

[Aaron_S]

I just use hemostats to dangle my thawed out rats. Works like a charm. Best part is I don't use a different feed bin so no worries for being bitten by accident!

[Reptile_Reptile]

sorry what is a hemostat?

[TeaNinja]

hemostats are the things that are shaped like scizzors but have a flat part at the tip to grab things and they have little rungs that click shut so they stay closed.

[Reptile_Reptile]

thanks... learn something new everyday

[serpentshideawa]

I i use giant tweezers when feeding

[Lankyrob]

Also use giant tweezers (about 10 inches long) for holding the prey.

[clmclark]

So basically- if she's gonna eat for me it's going to go down quickly? That's how it was with my brother's BP...but it was years ago and I rarely watched the feedings. I just want to get rid of this noisey smelly little mouse! Plus I feel bad for it- all alone and nothing to do but eat and poop. I'll let it go outside before I get a wheel for it.
I'm going to try to feed her again tonight. No one else there, lights out and silent. I haven't touched her since I tried feeding her on Wednesday night. Just changed her water and sprayed in her tank.

I covered 3/4 of her tank with plastic wrap and then towels on the sides. The temp is much more consitance and I think it might make her feel more secure in there with the sides covered for now. I still plan to move her to feed her. I have just a rubbermaid container that the mouse can't get out of. Would a smaller container be better though? Less room for the mouse to run around? I just figured she wouldn't have trouble getting it. Last time she cornered the mouse and pulled back like she would strike but just never did.

[clmclark]

Ok, she's in the "S" position and watching the mouse pretty good but it's been 10 minutes so far and she's not going for it at all.
I have her in a paper box, lid half on and all but one little lamp on in the apt. no sound and I'm not even watching, just listening.
Nothing. Trying to not get me down or discouraged but I really really want her to eat for me. I've left her completely alone since Wednesday. Her temps are up, humidity up and she's just been hanging out in her hide(s).

[TeaNinja]

how long has it been since she's eatin?

[clmclark]

3 weeks today. TCR fed her every monday and said that she always ate for them great. Last week when I took her out she seemed curious about me so I let her hang out and she sort checked me out and seemed to get comfy while I was holding her.
Tonight she seemed stressed and so I put her back right away and she immediately went under her water dish.
Would tomorrow be too soon to try again if I leave her in her tank?

[Lankyrob]

You want to leave it at least a week really before trying again, otherwise the stress just builds up. No handling or interaction except to change water for seven days and then try again.

My guy ate last week after 12 weeks so you could be in for a long wait. As long as the snake looks healthy then try not to worry.

[clmclark]

Thats the plan. I'll try again next monday and I'm going to try feeding her in her tank. Until then water will mysteriously appear and I wont... :)

[clmclark]

Tried again last night. Positioned herself to strike, then decided she wanted to check out the room instead and tried to get out of the box. Letting her go another week.

[citysnakes]

i think if you want to get your snake to eat then youre going to have to switch up its enclosure.

[clmclark]

I was going to pick up a new one this weekend but we have a foot and a half of snow droppped on us AGAIN! I found a 20 gallon Critter Cage online. Just have to pick it up but it's not exactly close to me. Once we get plowed out then I'll pick it up and make the switch. Should be this week. I think thats the problem too. I expect that she'll be happier with more room and one thats not so tall. I'm not trusting the thermometers right now either. Uping the wattage until I get the new tank. Investing in a temp gun too.
A friend was over and helped attempt to feed her while I tended to her water dish and what not. He was trying to talk me into handling her more so that she gets used to me and less stressed. I told him that if he's going to be her "daddy" then he needs to do more research! (Best friend and "silent partner" in snake ownership. By silent partner I mean, I do all the work and pay for everything while he shares the intrigue and feeds her when I don't wanna touch the icky mice.)

[citysnakes]

i'd would go with something closer to the size of a 10 gal. you dont even need to buy a critter keeper. hit up wal mart, they have these 12 QT sterilite tubs with locking lids that should work well. pick up a couple digital therms and youre good to go. drill a few ventilation holes and use paper towel or newspaper substrate, add two hides and a water bowl and youre done. you can house him in this set up until he starts feeding consistently for you and puts on some size. then move him into a nicely set up terrarium but dont forget that it still must provide for the basic needs of a ball python.

[clmclark]

Why would a tub be more beneficial than a tank? I have 3 sides of the current tank covered with a black towel so he has security/privacy. As well as the top 3/4 covered with plast wrap and a towel as well. The only thing I don't like with her current set up is that I would prefer more ground space rather than height.

[Reptile_Reptile]

tubs hold humidity better and warmth better and they are much easier to heat just throw a UTH under them and voila, plus it saves a bit of the electricity bill because your not using a light. Royals also like smaller enclosures much better they like to feel snug and secure. its just not as aesthetically pleasing

[citysnakes]

you can use a tank if you want. the point is that you need to set up an enclosure that promotes a strong feeding response. a basic set up like the one described in my previous post works well in doing that for me. a similar set up may work just as well for you.

[clmclark]

I spoke to the breeder this morning. He said that all their snakes are fed in deli cups or small boxes. His theory is simply that the box I've been feeding her in is too big. I'm going to give it another day and try. She's roaming around with her tongue since i tried to feed her. Going to find a shoebox and close the lid and just listen. Works perfectly since I don't want to watch it. he said if the mouse tries anything I'll hear it. Can't waith to get her eating and switch to F/T!

[Lankyrob]

What size mouse is it eating? If it is big enough to bite the snake then by the time you have opened the box it could be too late. Live feeding should be closely supervised at all times.

[clmclark]

Give me some credit :P Mouse isn't big enough and after 3 feeding attempts I've discovered this is a very very scared little mouse and knows to stay the heck away from fluffy. The will be supervised.

[Lankyrob]

What size/age is the snake? I have assumed following the thread that we are talking about a yearling like mine? The size of f/t mouse that he is eating could cause some serious damage if it was live. If i have the wrong end of the stick then i apologise.

My concern is only for the animal, not trying to criticise you.

[clmclark]

I was teasing, I took no offense :) It's a small hopper. BP is about 8 months old. The breeder told me to leave the mouse with her in a shoe box over night in her set up if I need to and I'm not willing to do that. I'm thinking an open shoe box inside a paper box with my sheer black curtain draped over it so I can still see inside. I'll just set her on the floor next too me and keep everything but 1 light on. I'm going to keept he box on a heating pad too.

[citysnakes]

see thats what im saying, it shouldnt be that complicated to feed a snake. if you were to set up a proper enclosure for this animal then it is more likely to eat and you wouldnt have to go through this complicated feeding ritual that obviously isnt working.

you need to have the basic security and temperature needs of a ball python met before it will start to eat well for you.

i would highly consider changing its enclosure to one similar as previously suggested and also feeding it inside the same enclosure.

[Lankyrob]

A hopper is big enough and has enough teeth/claws that it COULD seriously harm your snake - PLEASE be careful!

[Sapphyr]

I'll never forget when Wayne posted this image, and I'm sure you won't after seeing it, but if you don't watch the snake and the mouse together, this could happen. You wouldn't think a snake would allow a mouse to do such damage, but it very well could, and it obviously has happened before should the snake not be hungry or something else.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v704/ladycrotalus/ball_chew.jpg

And I also found this:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_f98opUNuVXc/SO3AU2jfLRI/AAAAAAAACyw/pqkMHlj5ZOI/s400/Mouse+snake2.jpg

Beginning to nom a snake.

[mld]

I'll never forget when Wayne posted this image, and I'm sure you won't after seeing it, but if you don't watch the snake and the mouse together, this could happen. You wouldn't think a snake would allow a mouse to do such damage, but it very well could, and it obviously has happened before should the snake not be hungry or something else.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v704/ladycrotalus/ball_chew.jpg

And I also found this:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_f98opUNuVXc/SO3AU2jfLRI/AAAAAAAACyw/pqkMHlj5ZOI/s400/Mouse+snake2.jpg

Beginning to nom a snake.

If these pictures don't deter people from feeding live rodents I don't know what would.

[clmclark]

She ate for me tonight. Smaller box, put a screen over the top and a heat lamp. BAM! She got the little guy. I'm a very happy girl. Feeling soooo much better now that she's eaten for me. Thank you guys for all the help. And for the record, I supervised at all times. I'm going to try F/T next week to see if I can get her to switch.