Please help. Corn snake issue.

[Sapphyr]

Sorry, I didn't know where to post this. So, last night I noticed my corn snake began to completely flip out. She was whipping around for no apparent reason and then seemed to go quiet. I picked her up and she seemed to be stiff, almost like she was paralyzed. She wouldn't even flick her tongue unless something came infront of her face. I tried to see if she'd eat something, and she was interested, eyeing it down and striking, but she kept missing. She'd strike and flip backwards or go way to the side, etc, where she normally strikes and hits every other time. I tried to see if maybe she needed water, but she just sat in it. She'd sometimes swim around, get out of it, but half the time she sat in it.

She's normally very quiet, occasionally coming out of her hiding spot to drink water or look around, climb the walls a little, etc. She's also a good eater, so I'm not really concerned with that. Also very energetic while being handled, always moving and looking around curiously, flicking her tongue. She'd always try and slither out of water, as well. So, with all the opposites listed, you can see why I'd be concerned about this.

She does have a heat lamp and a suitably sized enclosure until she grows out of it. I know too much space will stress out a snake. There are, also, no other sort of objects on her 'shelf' that would cause stress via vibrations. She's just over 2 months old and was bought at en expo. Our cricket provider, for our lizards, says snakes bought from expos are generally not taken care of properly and won't live. We weren't sure if she was saying this out of spite or not, since she's a family ran pet store and sells snakes as well.

Also, my mother claimed that the one that sold her the snake at the expo said to feed it once a week. I've read that babies should feed twice a week until they're older. Any input on this? Thanks for the help.

[infernalis]

Welcome to the forum...

I say go to a vet, but you did indicate your snake is a baby, and you are describing a neurological problem, vets are almost helpless with this situation.

Look the snake over very closely, are there any black pepper specks moving around?? any little black specks in the water?

If there is, we are in luck.. I never thought I would say this to anyone, but I really hope your snake has mites. Mites can be killed and the snake will return to it's normal behaviour.

Untreated, Mites will kill a baby snake rather quickly.

Neurological problems are a lot tougher, and incurable. So I really hope that's not the case.

[NennaMeerkat]

I know I feed my baby hognose once a week and she normally eats one to two pinkies during that time.

As for your other problem follow iinfernalis instructions, look for mites and take to a vet.

[Lankyrob]

Unfortunately it does sound like a neuro issue but to rule out anything else can you tell us everything about the snakes home? Temps, size, number of hides, substrate etc etc.

Good luck and hope it is something easy.

[Marica]

Ditto on Rob's questions. Some more husbandry info might help. What size is the enclosure? What's the temperature on the warm and the cool side? Also, just a thought, but can she climb very high in her cage? I ask because little corns sometimes like to climb up to the rim of the lid and an awkward fall could lead to injury, though rare. Maybe she had just fallen and was stunned and stressed out for a bit. How is she doing today?

As for where to buy herps, a lot of professional breeders sell direct to the public at expos, so you're likely to get an animal that is properly taken care of and get correct husbandry information, whereas the opposite is common at a lot of pet stores, esp. chains - there are of course always exceptions so it's good to do your own research before hand and know what signs to look for that indicate an unhealthy animal or improper care/environment.

I wouldn't recommend feeding a baby corn more than every 5 days, otherwise they won't have time to digest their previous meal, defecate, and get some hunting exercise prior to their next meal. I like to use the Munson Plan (http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showpost.php?p=433500&postcount=1) as a GUIDELINE for feeding. I emphasize guideline as the plan is meant as a reference. Every snake is different and as an owner you need to determine how often and what size prey is best for your snake.

[NennaMeerkat]

I like to use the Munson Plan (http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showpost.php?p=433500&postcount=1) as a GUIDELINE for feeding. I emphasize guideline as the plan is meant as a reference.

I have to wonder if this same thing can be used for hognose snakes as well. Would hate to think if I am overfeeding my girl.

[shaunyboy]

feeding once every 7 days is sufficiant for hatchlings right up to sub adulthood

it sounds like a neurological issue

high temperatures in your tank can also bring on similar issues

what temperature is your hot end of the tank ?

re buying at expo's
i have bought many snakes at snake shows in the uk and all have been healthy

sounds like your pet shop owning friend may have issues with expo's imo

cheers shaun

[Sapphyr]

Unfortunately she passed before I could get her to a vet, but for the information asked, she was in a plastic container about a foot tall and maybe 16 in. long. When she grew a little more she had a long 20 gallon to move into. There was a coconut shell hiding spot on the cool side and a rock cave on the warm side. In the middle of the tank, there's a rock water dish big enough for her to soak in. Warm side is around 80 F., cool side is 70F. As for bedding, I used Aspen. There were no mites on her at any point of owning her, nor signs of their presence in her bedding. Sorry for the bad news, but thanks for the help.

[infernalis]

So now you go get a healthy baby corn or you will get "empty cage syndrome"

[Marica]

Sorry about your loss. Are you able to contact the person your mom purchased the snake from? Some breeders/stores will offer a refund or replacement, but if not, it's still good to let them know that one of their snakes has passed. Your setup sounds pretty good. I hope this experience hasn't deterred you from getting another reptile, they are such wonderful creatures to have as a pet. However, you'll want to thoroughly disinfect and possibly replace some items in case it was something that could pass to the next occupant.

[Ch^4]

My sincere condolences to you and yours.

(Healthy) snakes can live many years, so as mentioned, hopefully it doesn't deter you from owning one of these majestic animals!

[Sapphyr]

Thankyou so much everyone. It doesn't deter me one but, as it has been a dream for me since childhood to own one of these gorgeous creatures, especially to watch it grow into adulthood and be a buddy. I will miss Agatha, but I still wish to own a snake. Plus, no use in wasting a perfectly fine cage and a whole bag of aspen. Unfortunately, the expo was out of state and my mother didn't take any details. Though, there is a local expo happening in a week or two. I was thinking maybe trying a rainbow boa, but I think they get too big for a 20 gallon enclosure to be a minimum. So, how about redtail boas? Are they the same or worse as far as size goes? Otherwise I'll try another corn or a ball python. I'd go for a milk snake but I heard they defecate as a self defense.

[Lankyrob]

Corn will musk as a defence mechanism too but less often if they are used to you, i rehomed an adult that would cover me every tiem i picked him up for the first couple of months.

With regard to the temps for corns the hot side should be 86f rather than 80f.

[infernalis]

All I'd like to say is that any boa or python will grow entirely too large to humanely house in a 20 gallon tank.

Smaller colubrid snakes are about the only right choice for a tank that size.

I keep milk snakes and Garter snakes in 20 longs just fine, and they have plenty of room to move around.

I have seen red tails jammed in 55 gallon tanks and felt bad for the snakes, they always have to fold over on themselves to fit in the tank.

[NennaMeerkat]

Your best bet for a 20 gallon would be a corn. Redtails get pretty big and I am 70% sure the same goes for rainbows. Besides it might be easier for ya to get a snake that isn't tropical in nature. IMHO they are just easier to take care of in general.

[infernalis]

Most female garter snakes only get as big as a 2 foot long piece of garden hose.

I say female, because males are skittish and don't care to be handled, most will musk when picked up, unless handled a lot.

Females on the other hand are big sweethearts and usually tolerate handling very well.

Garter Snakes (http://www.thamnophis.net/)

http://www.thamnophis.us/Macro/handix.jpg

and there are morphs too, but they cost a bit more...

http://www.thamnophis.us/Macro/Iowa.jpg

http://www.thamnophis.us/2010/masubi.jpg

[Marica]

I have never had any of my Corns musk, maybe I've been lucky. Our new little Mexican Black Kingsnake (like most Kings and Milks from what I hear) musks every time we take him out of his enclosure and we always have a piece of paper towel handy to wrap him in until he's done. However, after a few moments of protest he settles down and is a pleasure to handle. Here's a link to a list of some Corn Snake Breeders in the US (http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76317), some of whom may also work with other colubrids such as Milks and Kings. Like others have stated small colubrids are a good choice for your setup and their husbandry requirements are fairly simple compared to other species. Most boas and pythons are going to require an enclosure a lot larger than a 20 gal, and as adults some grow large enough to require an additional person when handling. A quick Google search on most species will get you caresheets on basic information, but it's always good to confirm with actual keepers on forums as there is a lot of incorrect information online.

[NennaMeerkat]

Oh god speaking of musk I think I got a whiff of my hognose musk this morning! Anyways I am thinking my own next snake might be a garter snake. Though would a 40 gallon be to big for a garter? And since they hibernate together does it make them more okay to house together? Probably not.

Anyways not trying to derail another forum but I do think you should get another cornsnake! They were my first snakes and I enjoyed them so much.

[Sapphyr]

Mmk then. I may still consider it if I can find a store that sells a decently priced 30 - 40 gallon tank to move a ball python into later, which I think I did find way before I did get a snake. Redtails and Rainbows would be something I'd consider later in my life.

Tropical species aren't an issue for me, seeing as how I've cared for several tropical lizards and frogs. Have leftover reptibark if it's suitable. It even creates water droplets while sitting in the bag. If reptibark wouldn't be suitable, I'm fine to get something different, no big deal to me. Also got misters and a waterfall deoration that can be used to up humidity if needed. Any thoughts on additional things I may need?

Also, if it needed to be hotter, the bulb may have been to blame. Was using a different one than my usual brand.

Edit: I'd get another corn, but I've always been intrigued by ball pythons, and to a similar extent, milk snakes. Though, if I can find a creamsicle, candycane, reverse oketee, or a silver queen, I may reconsider. At any rate, I used to have a Biology teacher who kept a full grown Ball Python in her classroom. I'd always love to come in after school and just relax in a chair, him over my shoulders. He'd fall asleep at times, I swear. Sweet thing.

[Marica]

If you are willing to look into larger caging in the future, then the 20 gal would be fine for some of the small to medium boas and pythons for the first couple years. My 2 little Dumeril's Boas are in 20L Critter Cages at the moment and I doubt they'll require larger caging for some time.

[Sapphyr]

So it takes a couple of years for them to get passed the 20 gallon mark? If that's the case then I could handle the ones I have in mind, right now I only make about 100 each month on commissions and little tasks until someone hires me for the long term, which by then I'd hope to make around 600 - 700 a month. So, even with the amount I make now, I could definitely save up for a larger tank when they get to the point of needing it. Growth rate would be handym as far as knowing when I should be expecting that point goes. I mean, it's obvious when you compare them, the cage and snake, face to face as an owner, but for future planning it isn't. I like to plan out things before I dive in. As long as they don't grow so quickly that I'd need to buy a tank, passed 20 gallons, for around 3 - 6 months, I'd be fine. If they do grow that quick and you'd recommend stunting growth by restricted feeding, I'd really rather not. I don't think that's all that humane. I do plan on buying a baby, which is why growth rate from 'baby' to 'passed 20 gallons' would be nice to know.

Also forgot to mention above that I have a left over ceramic heating bulb from when I had a Sugarglider. Also, I found Agatha to be very mobile before all of this happened. Always moved. I heard that even the breeder said corn snakes in general are squirrely and pick a direction and go for it. I'd prefer a snake that's pretty mellow in temperament and is cool to just hang around, like my old teacher's ball python.

Also, I looove hognoses. Had no idea they musked, though. I've always been fascinated with how they fake biting, as far as I've observed. I specifically love the albino or orange colored hognoses. As far as price goes, though, aren't they pretty pricey to get from breeders or stores?

[NennaMeerkat]

Also, I looove hognoses. Had no idea they musked, though. I've always been fascinated with how they fake biting, as far as I've observed. I specifically love the albino or orange colored hognoses. As far as price goes, though, aren't they pretty pricey to get from breeders or stores? You won't really see a lot of the behaviors you see in the wild with a bred hognose. The most my little girl does is the smell and it doesn't stick to you or anything but is like this bitter spicy scent that they have on them. I think that paired up with the "playing dead" act they are supposed to do makes for something that you don't want to eat...if you were a predator that is. I know they also flatten out their heads like a cobra and hiss along with rattling their tails to mimic a rattlesnake. But as I said before a hognose that has been hand raised and not harassed isn't going to do it. The "fake biting" isn't always that since they like to burrow and they will try to burrow into anything. My little girl often tries to do it to my shirt or my jeans.

Anyways hognose even full grown fit nicely in a 20 gallon and are easy to take care of like a corn snake. So your aspen and hides would work nicely. I think needed temps are the same as well (never good about exact temps). When we went to an expo to get ours they had many different sizes and both genders. Ranged from 65 for the smallest to 85 for the largest...which is what we got. The only thing I can say is sometimes hognose are picky eaters and may not easily eat even after settling in. So you have to work to find what conditions they like to eat. Mine won't eat if her lamp isn't on, if it isn't daytime, and if she hasn't been moving around already. She also won't eat if she isn't in her home. And if you move around while she is eating she will retreat and just give up on it. So yeah once a week I am perched in front of her home until she gets done eating her two pinkies in fear that I could discourage her from eating...oh and I have yet to get her to eat anything but live.

Our girl is normal colored keep in mind, not sure how much an albino or almenistic would cost. Though to me they are like a BP when it comes to being normal colored...they already have such dynamic markings.

[serpentshideawa]

i good place to look at hognose morph pricing would be BHB reptiles (http://www.bhbreptiles.com)

[serpentshideawa]

ok i dont know why its talking about a canadian drugstore but it still takes you to bhb enterprises

[infernalis]

Anyone who saw this before I edited it...

Please NEVER take matters in your own hands.. If anyone sees a questionable post of any kind, please PM me with a link to the post.

[Sapphyr]

Oh I looove BHB reptiles. I've been watching their Snakebytes channel on Youtube for several months, absolutely love it, and the 'fake biting' tid bit is from them, actually. Brian was showing off one of his and it kept tapping its flat nose against his fingers.

At any rate, I'm kind of skeptical about this upcoming expo as far as variety goes. Then again, the one Agatha was bought at even had Silver Queen morphs, Blopals, etc. and I'm certain it was held in a smaller city than ours. So, maybe there'll be more variety to pick from than I'd think, we'll just see.

Also, my question wasn't answered about if a baby would surpass a 20 gallon long tank in 3 to 6 months, as far as ball pythons go.

[serpentshideawa]

let me see if i can remember lol i dont think so but i could be wrong im not a big bp fan i prefer boas amongst other larger boids

[infernalis]

Someone should contact them, a quick HTML edit on their page will fix the bogus Viagra link.

[Sapphyr]

Someone should contact them, a quick HTML edit on their page will fix the bogus Viagra link.

I didn't get any spam, oddly.

[infernalis]

I didn't get any spam, oddly.

Because I used the "magic moderator edit button" to fix the link so it no longer says anything about Viagra.

[Sapphyr]

Because I used the "magic moderator edit button" to fix the link so it no longer says anything about Viagra.

Ahhh :x Yey for no spam~

At any rate, I'd forgotten BHB's prices on hognoses, but they're a smidge too pricey for me at the moment, if I were to find one at this next expo for a similar price. I think BHB's is around $200+, and I currently don't have that much at the moment. No big deal though, there's several other interesting kinds, morphs, etc. Loving that albino gartersnake up there, but I'm not too fond on the thought that they only get 2 ft. And, I know, I've never seen a looong hognose, but they've kind of stolen my heart despite it. Size is another reason I was looking into corns, redtails, and ball pythons. I'd like something that can span over my shoulders, so at expos, I could take them with me. Maybe some public appearances since kids love how mysterious snakes are, show people that they're not as bad as media portrays. Lord, I'd say snakes are just as misunderstood as pitbulls. At any rate, I guess I'm one of those people that likes larger versions of animals. 'Cept Geckos, they're just too awesome to not admire, despite most of them being on the small to medium scale, excluding the Caledonian Giant Gecko, which I'd love to own one day.

And yes, with public things I know I must exercise caution, as I do have a pitbull I like to go out in public with. Her main issue is getting too excited and jumping on people, but I'm working with her on that. At any rate, I do realize snakes could get stressed over so many strangers, but that's why I'd make sure it's been handled and tamed for several months before ever considering taking it with me. I don't know if having other people hold it would be something to consider, you know, if it'd make a difference. Similar to socialization with dogs.

[serpentshideawa]

it might help but just a handful of months might not be enough