Very rare piebald caught in the wild

[infernalis]

The bidding went nuts, price went way over my head, Someday maybe if the genes are carried on, I'd like a pair.

http://www.reptard.info/snake/pied.jpg

[Ch^4]

That is beautiful! Where did they find it?

[infernalis]

Near Chicago. Hope to see offspring someday.

[Ch^4]

That will be nice. I'm assuming they'll have to breed the offspring back to the visual unless they can find another one?

What was the final price on that pretty snake?

[frost]

wow! this is amazing... maybe, just maybe it just escaped from a breeder? hehe

[infernalis]

it was bought for $2200

Found by an 11 year old boy!

Not escaped from a breeder, I know almost all of the garter breeders (the real ones anyways) and they were the ones bidding the price up.

Scott Felzer (The nations biggest garter breeder) walked away from this, the whole thing turned into a circus.

It will require "line breeding" (Inbreeding) to produce more.

[NennaMeerkat]

It is a shame it will require inbreeding to keep going >.< You would think that if it is possible randomly in the wild they would be able to eventually breed them without the inbreeding part.

[Ch^4]

^^ The odds are astronomical though!

[NennaMeerkat]

You never know CH they could just get REALLY REALLY REALLY lucky and get it in what 3 generations of the breeders family? Sort of a family tradition to get another of these guys.

[infernalis]

Inbreeding happens in the wild too.

There is a whole colony of melanistic garter snakes near Toledo Ohio that obviously started by siblings breeding, it happened so often that there is now large numbers of melanistic in one area.

[NennaMeerkat]

Isn't it dangerous for the snakes that are born to be inbred? Ya know like lesser immune, other mutations you don't want, ect. ect. Or are reptiles "immune" to the dangers?

[infernalis]

Isn't it dangerous for the snakes that are born to be inbred? Ya know like lesser immune, other mutations you don't want, ect. ect. Or are reptiles "immune" to the dangers?

It takes several generations for the defects to surface.

I have a couple albino garters that are F5 and they are just now getting bug eyes.

I will not breed mine, the offspring would most likely all have bug eyes.

This snow is F4, and has one bug eye, the other is normal.

http://www.thamnophis.us/MoreTham/snose.jpg

[Ch^4]

Inbreeding happens in the wild too.

There is a whole colony of melanistic garter snakes near Toledo Ohio that obviously started by siblings breeding, it happened so often that there is now large numbers of melanistic in one area.

That'd be a sight to see!

[infernalis]

The Buckeye Herps Blog: Melanistic Garters of Ohio (http://buckeyeherps.blogspot.com/2009/10/melanistic-garters-of-ohio.html)


My wife is from Toledo, next time we drive out to visit, I'm going herping.

Her brother recently purchased a "fixer upper" house out in the dairy country behind the automobile factories, He is constantly telling us of the black snakes he sees.

[NennaMeerkat]

Just cause I am new to breeding terms in general...what does F4 ect. mean?

[infernalis]

Just cause I am new to breeding terms in general...what does F4 ect. mean?

Number of generations of inbreeding...


Filial: 1. In genetics, the first generation that results from the crossing of two parental lines, as the filial generation. 2. In general, pertaining to the relationship of children, both sons and daughters, to their parents. From the Latin filialis, from filius (son) and filia (daughter).

F5 means 5 generations of inbreeding. (The F is defined above)

[NennaMeerkat]

Ah gotcha okay then :) Thanks for clearing that up.

[Ch^4]

The Buckeye Herps Blog: Melanistic Garters of Ohio (http://buckeyeherps.blogspot.com/2009/10/melanistic-garters-of-ohio.html)


My wife is from Toledo, next time we drive out to visit, I'm going herping.

Her brother recently purchased a "fixer upper" house out in the dairy country behind the automobile factories, He is constantly telling us of the black snakes he sees.

Thanks for the link! That sounds fun...the wife visits the family, and you look for new additions to the family! (Unless your herping is catch and release.)

[infernalis]

Thanks for the link! That sounds fun...the wife visits the family, and you look for new additions to the family! (Unless your herping is catch and release.)

There is so many of them that I plan on bringing home a pair or a trio.

This population is so big that they get run over by cars, killed by homeowners who are afraid of them, hit by mowers, eyc...

A couple snakes will hardly make a difference.

[Ch^4]

Very true...And with you, they'll likely enjoy a longer and healthier life (as opposed to facing predators, cars, and people).

[Freebody]

that pied looks so frickin sweet, i love the color of the pattern on it as well, looks green. thats up their with my fav garter, maybe top 2 or 3, thx for sharing :)

[serpentshideawa]

something like fourth generation i think dont quote me on that though

[edens]

sheesh i feel like i will never learn! lol what are piebald? is that a breed of snake all on its own? or can that be refered to different breeds...... cus i looked at the post of someone else and it looked nothing like your pic... also is there a place to look up the different breeds of pythons and other snakes? thanks!

[Lankyrob]

Pie bald are any snake that has basically totally white scales but with patches of perfect patterning on the body.

[infernalis]

This snake raised a funny conversation elsewhere.. Thought I would share it here.

A little background first to put this in proper context. "Mike" catches endangered shorthead garter snakes and feeds them to regal ringnecks (Snake eaters) simply because he lives in about the only area these little garter snakes can still be found.

on to the thread..

Any news about the Piebald Garter found back in May? Would love to see an update and perhaps offspring?

Yeah I bet that snake was either released or confiscated a long time ago.

Actually Mike she is in the possession of a breeder and he hopes to make some hets this spring

Pretty sure that's against the law Jeff...

Coming from someone who FEEDS shorthead garters to other snakes, the hypocrisy of your "concern" amuses me Mike

I got some KUDOS emails from my statement..

[stephanbakir]

You never know CH they could just get REALLY REALLY REALLY lucky and get it in what 3 generations of the breeders family? Sort of a family tradition to get another of these guys.

If the piebald was male it would increase the breeders chance at getting pied offspring wouldnt it?

A male can breed with more then 1 female so assuming he gets lucky with some het pied female babies and picks them out to breed with the male hes golden?

My understanding of breeding garters involves 1 female and 6+ males. Will the female accept a male if there is no competition?

[infernalis]

My understanding of breeding garters involves 1 female and 6+ males. Will the female accept a male if there is no competition?


Yes, the females will be receptive if only one male is presented.

[mistersprinkles]

Ugh.
Seeing this picture just made me realize that the 'sick, weird' snake I found when I was little was a piebald.

I found either a dekay's, ribbon, or garter under a rock like this once when I was a little kid but I though it must be diseased and ignored it. I saw a leucistic something or other once too but it was moving too fast for me to id or catch it. I spent about 2 hours a day in a field for the first 15 years of my life.

Sigh...

[sickvenom]

wayne, why would the garter be illegal?

[infernalis]

Wayne, why would the garter be illegal?

A common misconception that requires just a bit of a history lesson to understand.

Not so many years ago it was a common practice for pet stores and wholesalers to gather herps in massive quantities in the early spring when they were all coming out of brumation.

Turtles, garter snakes, ribbon snakes, water snakes, toads and salamanders were getting wiped out by greedy merchants with no regard for the welfare of any species.

Bullfrogs were gathered up during breeding cycles and their hind legs chopped off for "gourmet food" the still living frog was then just discarded in the trash to die slowly & turtles were slaughtered for turtle soup.

Many states passed legislation forbidding the gathering of native herps, (can't say I blame them) that was intended to end that madness, to simplify paperwork the laws were written that it was illegal to gather any and all reptiles & amphibians, the laws were targeting the money grubbers.

So realistically if someone encountered a forest ranger with a bug up his arse, the ranger could exploit (enforce) the written laws.

However, think about this, every moron that chases down little colubrids and chops them up with a shovel, lawn mower or hoe should be prosocuted under these laws, and it never happens.

[Reptile_Reptile]

Kudos on the response wayne.

[infernalis]

Thanks man...

[mistersprinkles]

However, think about this, every moron that chases down little colubrids and chops them up with a shovel, lawn mower or hoe should be prosocuted under these laws, and it never happens.

Take the law into your own hands. When I was seven a kid I was hanging out with picked up a frog and whipped it into the ground to kill it, so I punched him in the head so hard he went flying :yes:.

Street justice is the best justice.

[infernalis]

at my age, facing assault charges do not appeal to me.

[Reptile_Reptile]

^^ intelligence at its finest

[sickvenom]

at my age, facing assault charges do not appeal to me.

such charges shouldn't appeal to any decent citizen, at any age!

[mistersprinkles]

such charges shouldn't appeal to any decent citizen, at any age!

Yeppers. Sometimes a good shot to the face is just what the doctor ordered. Much more effective than wasting court time, etc etc etc. The point gets across.

How many people do we all know that would be less prickish had they gotten a couple of good punches to the face in highschool to straighten out their attitude?


at my age, facing assault charges do not appeal to me.

He killed an innocent frog man. If I saw someone else my age doing it today I'd at very least kick them in the shin. Not sure about actually punching them in the head at this point. You'd have to do it to a kid for that.

[Reptile_Reptile]

truthfully ive known a few

[mistersprinkles]

But I'm not one of them, right?

[infernalis]

I have learned to just not let my blood boil so much about that, people in general can be morons, I accept that..

Lay a finger on my family though, and I don't care what charges I face.. Just make sure the jury sees my side of it.

But going to jail and getting a criminal record over a garter snake or whatever is just not worth it.

[mistersprinkles]

When you're 7, being grounded is a worse case scenario. Definitely couldn't really get away with it now.

[stephanbakir]

sometimes a get out of jail free card would be fantastic