A couple of question about feeding mice

[NennaMeerkat]

So my baby hognose ate again, this time she didn't hesitate when we put the two pinkies in the aquarium with her. Yes they are live, and yes I am feeding her in the home she lives in. Next week, since she ate in front of us without a towel, I will try removing her into a separate container and see how she does.

Anyways, most of you will probably throw eggs and such at me for wanting to continue feeding live but I am. Thus I need to know what is the oldest "stage" of a mouse that I can get my snake when she is older that will not harm her. I cannot remember if it should be a hopper or not. I do plan on trying stunned mice but just in case she doesn't want to eat them for whatever reason I would like to know what the stage that won't be able to hurt her once she is an adult.

The other question I have is how often should I feed my snake a week while she is a baby? With our Corns we used to have years ago we always kinda fed them (once again live) until they would not eat anymore...but I have read in a couple of places that hognose snakes are notorious for overeating and I certainly don't want a fat snake. Right now we feed her 2 pinkies once a week (Thursday or Friday).

If anyone can help me out that would be great.

[Nafun]

Nothing wrong with feeding live as long as the eyes aren't open.

As far as feeding live once the snake outgrows rats/mice w/ eyes closed..

You'll hear a lot of noise from both sides.

The pro side will tell you that live prey is more natural, it leads to fewer wasted rodents, and can be safe.

The con side will tell you that most snakes won't give a damn bit of difference whether their prey is fresh, that the money saved buying frozen in bulk over buying live every week outweighs any losses due to refused feeds, and that feeding live can lead to serious, even life threatening injuries to your snake.

The problem is, both are 100% right. It's like breast feeding, or circumcision. There are valid arguments on both sides.


My snakes, lizards, and turtles take a mixture of frozen, freshly killed, and live prey. Here is the advice I feel you need if you plan to continue feeding live.

1> Always put some of the rodents food in the feeding container so that if it gets hungry, it won't attack the snake out of hunger.
2> Never put a hungry rodent in with a snake. Make sure the rodent is well fed and watered. (makes it a healthier meal anyway).
3> NEVER leave any rodent unattended with your snake if the rodent's eyes are open. If you get a snake that will only eat live prey, and refuses to eat while people are watching, and has outgrown rats/mice with closed eyes, look to rabbits, or baby chicks.
4> When feeding prey with eyes open, watch them closely. Do not be afraid to get between them if the rodent bites your snake. It is up to you to protect the snake from the prey if you choose to feed live. No not be afraid to get bitten, you will probably be bitten by both the snake, and rat (rat bites hurt infinitely worse) but it's a price you have to pay to keep your snakes safe sometimes.

I've always fed my juvenile snakes as they're hungry. They get the largest prey item they can safely take once a week (barring brumation). If they start begging for food early, I bump them up. Adults get fed every two weeks, more often if they have a history of going off of feed during the winter.

While obesity is a risk to all reptiles, I wouldn't worry about overeating at that age. It's when snakes get older and they realize all they have to do is stick their head out once a week to get free food that obesity becomes a problem.

[NennaMeerkat]

Thanks for ALL that advice hun. Cost really isn't an issue with me since my family and I only get smaller sized snakes meaning no Burmese no Red Tails ect. Sticking to generally small snakes is easier on the pocketbook whether we buy frozen or fresh food.

I guess for now I will stick with the 2 pinkies once a week and maybe up the amount after her first shed...shedding is a sign of growing and growing is a sign of needing more food when they are babies at least.

[infernalis]

Although I am not opposed to feeding live, Unless you have pre-existing mice colonies you are working with, a bunch of pinks in the freezer is not all that expensive to have around, and it simplifies life, really it does.

On feeding days, I just thaw and serve.

[NennaMeerkat]

True dat infernalis however having a baby snake that has yet to eat a frozen thawed (once I got in touch with the breeder she did say that the snake we got was only eating live for her as well) makes it a bit more difficult to feed than just "thaw and serve". I have tried more than once to feed her f/t but she would not take it. Tried all the techniques as well, jiggling, scenting, ect. and she showed no interest. Now we threw in a couple of live pinkies and she dove upon them (so to speak) and ate immediately.

Thus live is the way to go for me, at least for now, since I don't want her not to eat or stress her out in an attempt to feed. Honestly the price is negative considering that she is the cheapest animal we have in our home right now. Now if she were a big snake then yeah we might have more problems.

[Aaron_S]

Live feeding is OK even when the prey items eyes are open. It'll just have to be closely monitored.

I recommend the same feeding schedule you're currently on and keep feeding her in her enclosure for a few more feedings before you try to move her out of it to eat. I also recommend just feeding her forever in her home enclosure. Less hassle.

[NennaMeerkat]

Yeah I never left my corns alone with prey that could hurt them...at least not until they dispatched them all. Then I would just cover them up and let them eat in peace. Hognose don't constrict and so monitoring is a must. Thankfully she is no longer shy and will eat in front of me without the cover.

And everything I have ever heard suggests that it is not a good idea to feed them in their home enclosure due to the risk of bite and considering hognose are supposed to be mildly venomous it is something I want to avoid. However, I will take it upon good advice to wait a bit longer before trying to feed in a different home.

[Aaron_S]

I don't understand that logic that a snake will bite more because it thinks it's getting food every time the enclosure is open. Doesn't anyone figure that if the snake is taken out to eat that every time it's taken out it's going to bite because it thinks food is coming?

I have a modest collection of snakes and have various other ones in the past. I have never encountered this association the way people describe it. Some species are just hungry no matter what, like king snakes.

[NennaMeerkat]

Dually noted there I suppose. It probably would be less stressful on our new girl to not be moved into a strange place every time to eat. Never owned any larger snakes to know how they act and certainly never owned a King before.

[Lankyrob]

I have started feeding in the enclosure just for my easiness. I just put a plastic plate in the enclosure and put the preyitem on it to minimise the risk of substrate ingestion. Three feeds donelike that for my seven snakes so far and no issues to report. I totally agreebwith arrons logic with regard to the feeding in or out of the enclosure too.

[NennaMeerkat]

Thankfully she is on a reptile carpet type thing and so there is NO chance of ingesting something besides her prey. Live or dead. Kinda did it on purpose that way since we did end up feeding her in her enclosure instead of somewhere else. She might not get to bury and such but with no chance of accidental ingestion I think it is the better option.

[Reptile_Reptile]

I don't understand that logic that a snake will bite more because it thinks it's getting food every time the enclosure is open. Doesn't anyone figure that if the snake is taken out to eat that every time it's taken out it's going to bite because it thinks food is coming?

I have a modest collection of snakes and have various other ones in the past. I have never encountered this association the way people describe it. Some species are just hungry no matter what, like king snakes.

aaron is right by the logic of feeding in a tank will make them tank aggresive, then taking them out to feed them will make them aggressive outside of the tank. after a while you can just see that this is all rubbish and really feeding in the tank is good, because its less hassle and less stress on the snake, and i personally like to think that it makes them feel better cause they dispatched a intruder.

[Ch^4]

I do not oppose to feeding in or out of the enclosure. I personally feed out of the enclosure for sanitary reasons and to prevent impaction....nothing to do with "aggression."

I don't believe that snakes are more or less likely to be "aggressive" if fed in or out of their home. However, I must argue that none of my snakes have ever mistaken opening their cage as feeding time, and if fed in the cage, they may mistake your hand as food (they may also mistake your hand as food if you feed in a separate enclosure, but I feel that it is less likely and they only make this mistake after feeding).

They all know the smell of cardboard and newspaper...this means dinner. They all know the only time they get fed is when they are in their feeding box. All other times out of the cage are for exploration and exercise, and I feel that they "know" this!

I've been (defensively) bit countless times, but only by my younger snakes; my older snakes never assume the "s-position" unless in their feed box.

(sorry for the digression)

[NennaMeerkat]

I love a good "debate" so to speak on feeding in and out of their normal home while giving me plenty of information I did not know before. Since there is no chance of impaction from my snake's home as it has reptile carpet down I will just continue to feed her in her home.

And since no one seems to object with me continuing to feed her 2 pinkies once a week and then increase to 3 when she has her first shed I guess that will be my game plan. I am also thinking of just sticking with live food and once she is old enough for full grown mice I will just stun them a bit before feeding.

Though honestly a hognose shouldn't have problems with having hoppers or whatever (isn't that the last stage where they can't hurt a snake?) for her entire life, even if I end up having to give her several a feeding?

[presspirate]

and i personally like to think that it makes them feel better cause they dispatched a intruder.

I like that philosophy. I just cant picture Mickey Mouse as a home invader.:crazy2:

I don't believe feeding live is generally frowned upon. It's the people that just throw live prey in and then just walk away. Personally, I always feed F/T because it is far more convenient for me. But if I had to, I would feed live in an instant.

[shaunyboy]

as said if you apply the same logic to feeding outside the tank as you are applying to feeding in the tank then surely the result will be they think they're getting fed everytime you take them out so get bitey outside the tank

the folk that say feeding in the tank causes the snake to be agressive everytime the tank gets open never cease to amaze me.

that being they only apply this logic to one part of the equasion...!!

the part that seems to back up their statment (not aimed at the op aimed at everyone who tells new folk this)

imo hoggies are in danger as much when they are adults from a large live mouse as at any other time after you give them small mice or larger

ive seen plenty hoggies eat

they dont care if they strike the head bang on like say a carpet or constrict powerfully

ive seen hoggies take frozen thawed mice from the middle of the mouses body and litterally fold the mouse in half as they eat it

im thinking a live mouse would be able to bite a few chunks out the hoggie before the mouse died if it was taken this way

I AM NOT AGAINST LIVE FEEDING AND DO NOT JUDGE THOSE WHO DO IT

i preffer to lessen any risks for my snake by feeding frozen thawed

re getting eggs thrown at you

i'm sure you'll find out once you get to know the folk on here we do not force our ways on others or throw eggs

if we do happen to have a go at someone its usually because a snake is suffering or someone is telling us to do something dangerous

we are a very passionate bunch

cheers shaun

[NennaMeerkat]

As I said once she is older (I mean she is still a baby right now) I will probably still give her stuff like hoppers...they don't have their eyes open right?...that won't hurt her even if she has to eat several of them to get her full.

[shaunyboy]

As I said once she is older (I mean she is still a baby right now) I will probably still give her stuff like hoppers...they don't have their eyes open right?...that won't hurt her even if she has to eat several of them to get her full.

imo a snake thats eating too small a prey size won't get the same nutrition as from something larger

hoppers ?with you saying their eyes are not open i'm assuming they are what we call rat pups or mouse pinkies

if so they don't have much nutrition for older snakes

their bones are not properly formed not much meat on them,etc

can i ask why you feel the need to feed live ?

i'm just curious thats all

if you don't wish to answer my question thats ok mate

cheers shaun

[NennaMeerkat]

I gots no problem answering any legit question thrown my way. The reason I am choosing to feed live to this snake has many reasons. The main one being, that is what the breeder told me she was eating, I tried f/t and the snake showed no interest, she is indeed eating live with much vigor, and a few years ago we had a baby hognose that we tried feeding strictly f/t and for nearly a month never ate thus fearing that it would not make it gave it back to the breeder we got it from (we were told 2 days later it was eating again...interestingly enough live).

Also at a zoo I worked at they gave all the snakes (big and large) live/stunned prey. A lot of the snakes were big so it was rabbits and small chickens. Worked there for almost 5 years and never saw the snakes get bit or otherwise hurt from these live/stunned prey items. They even had a couple of full grown hognose (why and where I fell in love with them) and they were given live mice without problem or injury. The first snakes I ever had, which were 2 corn snakes, also ate live for the entire time we had them and they never had a problem with it. Though I know cornsnakes constrict and hognose do not.

~~~~~

Also isn't there different stages for mice/rats. Thought it went something like: Pinkies, Fuzzies, Hoppers, Full Grown. Though I could have sworn there were more stages...maybe not though. Whatever the case Hoppers have their eyes open are basically weaned from their parents and "hop" a lot. At the same time they may or may not have the bite force to hurt a snake. I also think the bones are good and formed and besides size (and possibly bite force) are just like adult mice.

[totheend]

I agree with Shaun. Hoggies will eat from any end of the mouse.......legs, head, tail, side.....
So feeding live when adult could be a little dangerous for the snake. My females eat adult mice and sometimes more than one at feeding time. You are gonna have to feed alot of hoppers to make that up.

I have no issues with feeding live if done properly and find some snakes don't care to take f/t. But I do think that she will eat f/t eventually. Let her settle in, feed her 3 or 4 more meals and then try f/t again. No harm in trying. Have you tried feeding f/t since she started eating for you?

When it is feeding time for my hogs here they are up at the top of the cage waiting to take the f/t mouse off the hemostats. I think that you shouldn't worry about it now and just wait it out.

[NennaMeerkat]

I have no issues with feeding live if done properly and find some snakes don't care to take f/t. But I do think that she will eat f/t eventually. Let her settle in, feed her 3 or 4 more meals and then try f/t again. No harm in trying. Have you tried feeding f/t since she started eating for you?

I tried a few days before we fed her the first time and no interest, and this past time I tried the day before. Still no interest. She smelled at it and recognized that it was there, but moved away. I checked the temp of the pinkie and it was warm without being overly warm. I will continue to try and feed her f/t before the live but honestly I would much rather just feed her live.

So the next thing is if I could stun a grown mouse when it comes to that time would anyone consider that unsafe for a hoggie?

[Reptile_Reptile]

lots of snakes dont have interest at firsst but its your job as the owner to how should i say... inspire interest you see, there are many ways you can get the little lady to eat w/e you want

[totheend]

Once she gets eating on a regular schedule in her new home things will change. She will soon love to eat and f/t will be on her menu :D

I have started baby hogs on live and they do switch over. Many baby snakes like live food at first but swich over.

I see no problems in a stunned mouse at all. No harm to your snake.

Don't give up and don't get frustrated she will take f/t on her own time.

[NennaMeerkat]

I will continue to try F/T however I hate constantly throwing away a mouse and eventually money every time she doesn't eat one. I know some people say there is no harm in refreezing but I personally wouldn't refreeze anything I eat thus not going to do it to her either. Though if she can and will eat stunned I really wouldn't have problems. Besides I have a feeling it is going to be a bit before I have to stun anything. She is still VERY small.

Maybe I will try to feed her f/t in a month or so, or maybe after she gets a little bigger overall and possibly not so finicky. I am not gonna stress one way or the other though cause I know I can keep her safe if she eats live her entire life.

[Lankyrob]

Solution to save throwing away the mice - buy a young Carpet python - they eat anything and everything so instead of throwing the mice away you give it to the Carpet ;) :yes: ;)

[dragunov.762]

if you stun a mouse or pre kill it there should be absolutely no harm in feeding it. hoppers have there eyes open but usually don't have the strength to injure a snake. i have fed my king live hoppers before and it bit her as she was constricting it but it couldn't get enough of the snake in its mouth to injure it.