Obesity in wild monitors

[mo9e64]

Monitors in their natural habitats can go from one extreme to another such as that in a savannah where it's feast or famine.They can get as much as they can eat and go to fanine where conditions force them to conserve energy-thus hide and conserve.In rainforest Monitors pretty much can eat as much as they need all year round-does this pretty much doom them to extinction due to obesity-intake far outweighs the energy expenditure-less energy to forage,you just need to get to your basking and hiding spots,avoid predators,and breed.How many wild Salvator Monitors die due to obesity-Their predators large pythons large cats and crocodiles are ambush hunters

[infernalis]

Have you ever seen a monitor run at full speed? even an obese monitor can run like mad when the need arises.

I think that the situation with obese captive monitors is...

1. nowhere near the same level of exercise, in the wild they have a lot of room to roam and run around, in captivity they very rarely get that.

2. sustained abundance of food. - In captivity owners tend to over feed continuously whereas in nature, they may feast for a day or two, maybe even a week or two, but the conditions almost always revert back to the lizard relying on stored fat to survive eventually.

3. lack of stimuli - monitors are by far the most intelligent reptiles, scientists have even discovered they can effectively count as high as six. (don't ask me how they know this, I saw it on a documentary) So Captive monitors get bored just sitting in a cage all day, and turn into fat slobs.

Same thing commonly happens to humans. subject #1. & subject #2 both eat the same amount of food. Subject #1 spends all day working hard and subject #2 just lies on the sofa watching TV all day.

after a year of this, Subject #1 is fit and strong, subject #2 is fat and gasping for breath.

[Lankyrob]

To me this is just an attempt to ressurect an argument the OP was having with bighog in another thread.............

[infernalis]

To me this is just an attempt to ressurect an argument the OP was having with bighog in another thread.............

you may be very right Rob..


but as I stated in my reply, one cannot compare wild to captive. The situations are different.

[mo9e64]

forums,are for open discussion-i will not lie that it doesn't have reference to the other topic.i think i still have a good point here.All this in relation to good husbandry-that includes excercise.A monitor will not get fat if you give it proper husbandry-if you're getting those results of obesity could you not admit maybe something is wrong.Maybe all i'm doing is pissing you guys off,not my intention.You can feed entirely insects, but by being closed minded you are limiting others choices.All your examples of obesity you have not shown to be from feeding rodents just improper husbandry.

are you guys saying monitors in the wild are always suffering drought conditions,that there are not times when the monitors have access to an overabundance of food.Poor husbandry is subjecting monitors to drought conditions which catch up to them eventually.Monitors store fat and if they cannot metabolize get obese no matter what the diet-DROUGHT CONDITIONS.

[infernalis]

I'll admit, when we first got chomper we always gave in when he begged for food.
Yes monitors will figure YOU out and learn what it takes to get food from you.

But in time I learned that my Savannah was turning into a football with legs.

Now he gets fed a lot less often and a lot more sparingly.

he does have tantrums when I'm in the reptile room feeding other animals, but I have learned to ignore it.

Although it is relatively normal for their belly to drag when they walk a relaxed gate, However a healthy monitor should be able to lift it's gut up off the ground when needed and run.

We as keepers have to learn to adjust our husbandry practices to find the middle ground.

Whereas I have a ton of land for Chomper to run around on, many people do not. Walking a monitor in a public park is a bad idea, so some people just can't let the animal out to get the same level of exercise.

so what may work for my situation, may not work for another persons situation.

[mo9e64]

According to old monitor references the only social monitor was Varanus rudicollis,the rest were to be kept singly.Progressive husbandry has shown that things such as boredom can be attributed to lack of social interaction amongst monitors.Monitors are intelligent like you say,and don't get along with certain individuals of their own species,but show interaction with others.If we left it as it was,we would not have learned the truth.A lot of knowledge we get,does not come from field research,a lot of things we learn about monitors is in captivity-
when you say middle ground do you mean compromise on their care?

[red ink]

What do you define as "social"? I only have experience with Australian Odatrias and I can assure you V. gelleni can live in groups in captivity even with multiple males in the same enclosure. Fights are ritualistic more than violent and there is no real over domminance issue between males, neither one dominates the other.

[infernalis]

when I said middle ground, I meant what works for your own particular situation.

Lets say if a keeper spends a certain amount of time each day interacting and exercising their monitor, then you can feed the monitor more often and be less fussy about the fat content in the food.

If another keeper keeps a monitor locked in a box 24/7 and does nothing but feed it and water it, then that monitor will not only suffer socially, but will become obese if fed the same exact diet as the first monitor.

I simply think that keeping this animal requires some progressive thinking.

certain husbandry practices must be adhered to, like temperatures, substrate and large cage size, but the diet must be proportionate to the level of activity the animal is allowed to have.

Just like ANY animal, calories in must equal calories burned, or the critter will simply get fat.

[red ink]

...........How many wild Salvator Monitors die due to obesity-Their predators large pythons large cats and crocodiles are ambush hunters

I would say very few if not none:

1) Crocodiles are extremely rare in their range

2) Large cats are almost extinct in their range

3) It would be very rare that a large python can take on a 10.5 Foot full grown water monitor, even if it was obese. The only "obese" cases of water monitors in the wild are the ones living off human co-habitation, mainly in the waterways of Thailand. How many people do you think would tolerate a python large enough to take a 10 foot monitor amongst their ranks. Within their range elsewhere like Malaysia, Sri Lanka, India and Indonesia large pythons are rare and not tolerated by the populace.

[mo9e64]

Thanks Red Ink,that was a round about way of what i was trying to say.I've seen footage of urban Water Monitors they seemed to be of normal proportions-certainly didn't effect their swimming.

the social behaviour i'm talking about would be the same as the Odatria-

Infernalis-you are right,if the monitor can't burn the fat(low metabolism due to improper temperatures/husbandry practices)the animal will get fat.

[Damion930]

correct me if I'm wrong infernalis but are u saying that diet can be adjusted based on the activity level and need of the animals? makes since to me seems it would be true for any animal if its getting fat provide more activity and adjust diet accordingly

[mo9e64]

can you overfeed a baby monitor?

[bighog85]

Monitors in their natural habitats can go from one extreme to another such as that in a savannah where it's feast or famine.They can get as much as they can eat and go to fanine where conditions force them to conserve energy-thus hide and conserve.In rainforest Monitors pretty much can eat as much as they need all year round-does this pretty much doom them to extinction due to obesity-intake far outweighs the energy expenditure-less energy to forage,you just need to get to your basking and hiding spots,avoid predators,and breed.How many wild Salvator Monitors die due to obesity-Their predators large pythons large cats and crocodiles are ambush hunters

You are right, they do go from one extreme to the other but that is not the definition of obesity. In the wild, they are forced to do this because if they didn't they would die. You really don't see the difference between this and feeding them all they will eat every day of their lives? How many rainforest monitors have you studied and shown to be obese. Have you calculated their average caloric intake compared to what they burn? Food doesn't just come to them even though it is more abundant. They still climb hundreds of vertical feet a day in the trees to find birds and bugs which is bound to burn more calories than those that travel across the ground. Other than animals that live near human habitation, obesity has never even been thought of as a problem in wild populations so I really don't see why you would even bring this up, other than keeping an argument going. Animals in captivity do not get NEARLY as much exercise as wild ones do and if you think that the two are even comparable, it just shows your lack of experience. All I have to do is bring up your statement about how you feed all the mice they will eat every day and any experienced keeper will tell you how stupid that is. Why don't you post some pictures of these supposedly healthy animals. I for one would like to see this.

[bighog85]

can you overfeed a baby monitor?

Yes you can. Overfeeding will cause rapid growth which can put to much stress on the bones and organs of the animal. Rapid growth is expected in young monitors but it can be to much and be just as harmful as underfeeding. It is the same as powerfeeding a snake such as a retic to get extreme growth.

[infernalis]

correct me if I'm wrong infernalis but are u saying that diet can be adjusted based on the activity level and need of the animals? makes since to me seems it would be true for any animal if its getting fat provide more activity and adjust diet accordingly


Yes that's exactly what I'm saying ;)

Think of it like this..

2 obese people wish to lose weight.

One sits on the couch all day talking about it, the other works out every day.

in a month, one will have a more defined sturdy build, the other will still be heavy and soft.

That calories in vs. calories burned holds true for any living creature.

People who keep large (slow) snakes like pythons and boas feed maybe twice a month.

My little garter snakes are all hyper active and almost always in motion.

I have to feed them 3 times a week.

it's all about metabolism.

[mo9e64]

Monitors are more like the hyperactive snakes-always on the go requiring more food than the ambush hunters like pythons,who have evolved that way.You cannot feed a 10' Burmese Python the same as a 10' Cribo-it has more demands,even in captivity.Cribo owners have a grasp of this concept.

And i used the couch potato example to show the differences,Monitors are not warm blooded(okay maybe a Komodo Dragon, a bit).:)

[infernalis]

Back to your original concept: Husbandry.

I'd wager to say 80% (or more, likely much more) of the larger monitors being kept in captivity today are kept in cages that are too small.

I have seen this with my own eyes, a monitor kept in a cage that is too small will get bored and simply lay on it's belly all day and all night.

[mo9e64]

this topic is based on proper husbandry-that would include proper cage size.What i am saying is that when we don't apply all aspects of husbandry we will get results that will be detrimental to the health of the monitor.If in my setup i feed what they need and they don't get obese and in yours they do what does that tell you.They will tell you what they need,young monitors especially for proper growth and calcium absorption.A monitor can get their calcium requirements just from whole prey items without supplements but they need proper husbandry that includes the high basking temps 130F and higher-but without the other aspects you get complications.

[Damion930]

I'm kinda confused on the topic mo9 are u trying to say that its ok to feed ur animal as much as it will take I don't see how that could be healthy for them or good husbandry

[red ink]

Input = output, That's all it comes down to in feeding ectotherms, unlike mammals whose food intake goes to 70% use for internal combustion.

[infernalis]

Where I'm rather confused.. The thread title is "obesity in wild monitors"

But so far it seems like it's mostly a discussion on captive monitors.

[bighog85]

Where I'm rather confused.. The thread title is "obesity in wild monitors"

But so far it seems like it's mostly a discussion on captive monitors.

It is nothing more than an attempt at proving himself right, thats it. He is convinced that savs are best kept on an all rodent diet and he feeds his, if they exist, all they can eat every day. So far there have been no questions from him concerning husbandry even though his is obviously lacking and all he wants to do is convince us that his way of doing things is right, even though it has been proven to be wrong. I like a good discussion as much as anyone but I feel like I am beating a dead horse here.

[Damion930]

well I'm no expert but even if u r able to provide high activity to burn calories u could still over feed an animal no matter what it is as humans if u work out all day and don't eat properly u can still have adverse. sidefects it dosent make for a healthy habit and as opportunistic animals that eat what they can when they can do to food availability in the wild and Ther natural instinct to store food energy I just don't see how feeding any animal all they can eat could possibly be good for them if anything we can hope that others will read this and not follow suit with the poor example of husbandry

[infernalis]

It is nothing more than an attempt at proving himself right, thats it. ......... I like a good discussion as much as anyone but I feel like I am beating a dead horse here.

Couldn't agree more.

well I'm no expert but even if u r able to provide high activity to burn calories u could still over feed an animal no matter what it is as humans if u work out all day and don't eat properly u can still have adverse. sidefects it dosent make for a healthy habit and as opportunistic animals that eat what they can when they can do to food availability in the wild and Ther natural instinct to store food energy I just don't see how feeding any animal all they can eat could possibly be good for them if anything we can hope that others will read this and not follow suit with the poor example of husbandry

Again, I couldn't agree more.

There has to be a balance. I for one quit giving Chomper an all rodent diet years ago, I also quit giving in every time he begs for food.

Chomper gets fed a sparing meal every few days, He's not skinny by any means, and he's certainly not even close to fat.

In closing, since we are on this subject anyways, don't bother with eggs, turkey or dog food. All common items fed to monitors that are very unhealthy, and just plain the wrong food to give them.

My number one recommendation to the fellow Savannah keepers reading this is start a roach colony. My personal choice is Dubia, they are super easy to breed and care for, they are big and meaty, and Savannahs love them.

[mo9e64]

The topic is wild monitor obesity which nobody has addressed other than energy has to equal intake,if there is more intake than energy exerted you get a fat monitor you get fat lizard which is true partly.If a monitors intake in the wild is more than it's energy expenditure-address that.What motive do i have to make up that i have monitors-i don't know you Big hog,other than the fact you take in Sav's for rescue that are kept properly kept other than being fed rodents ,then they die.Sav rescue has been the topic on another forum-of coarse i'm the narrow minded one ,sticking to one forum that doesn't stray from my comfort zone. I'm not saying you have to feed an exclusive rodent diet,but it's better,if you practice proper husbandry.Infernalis, come on-feeding your monitor sparingly-mimicking drought conditions so the monitor will store fat,of coarse he'll keep good weight.This is beating a dead horse-and it does make me sad that it hasn't been constructive-i meant well ,and have to work on my communication.This isn't about being right-that's just human ego,this is about monitors.I am just frustrated that none of this makes sense to you guys.Monitor husbandry hasn't evolved because of people limiting choices-Infernalis,most advanced keepers of monitors don't keep their monitors singly-i know that's just hippy heresy talk.

[Xanafein]

The topic is wild monitor obesity which nobody has addressed other than energy has to equal intake,if there is more intake than energy exerted you get a fat monitor you get fat lizard which is true partly.If a monitors intake in the wild is more than it's energy expenditure-address that.What motive do i have to make up that i have monitors-i don't know you Big hog,other than the fact you take in Sav's for rescue that are kept properly kept other than being fed rodents ,then they die.Sav rescue has been the topic on another forum-of coarse i'm the narrow minded one ,sticking to one forum that doesn't stray from my comfort zone. I'm not saying you have to feed an exclusive rodent diet,but it's better,if you practice proper husbandry.Infernalis, come on-feeding your monitor sparingly-mimicking drought conditions so the monitor will store fat,of coarse he'll keep good weight.This is beating a dead horse-and it does make me sad that it hasn't been constructive-i meant well ,and have to work on my communication.This isn't about being right-that's just human ego,this is about monitors.I am just frustrated that none of this makes sense to you guys.Monitor husbandry hasn't evolved because of people limiting choices-Infernalis,most advanced keepers of monitors don't keep their monitors singly-i know that's just hippy heresy talk.



Being that im new here, I may be over stepping my welcome, But you sound like the kind of opinionated **** that i deal with on gaming forums daily, no matter what anyone says to you, you are gonna do what you damn well please, you continue to stress that you are not in the wrong to justify it to yourself

again i know that open flaming is frowned upon but ive been lurking this thread for a while now and i could no longer contain my irritation

[mo9e64]

that i respect-i do come off like that you are right-like i said i meant well-but i won't justify my behaviour,i definately went about it wrong.there is a lot of good advise here i went over some old threads-i'm just passionate about monitors which still does not justify my behaviour.Thanks Xanafein,and sorry if i offended you guys.

[infernalis]

On that note, lets all just group hug and agree that it's been a learning experience for everyone. ;)

fair enough?

The one thing about this group that makes me proud to be here and moderate is the fact that this is one of the most accepting and tolerant groups of people I have ever been around.

I gave up posting anything at all on the KS monitor forums, the constant bickering and name calling clouds any REAL information exchanged.

Especially from the "big guns" who all seem to do things differently from each other and all think their way is the only way.

[Xanafein]

Agreed infernalis, its very nice Btw, cought a california redsided my last trip, it was male, and didnt like me much

[bighog85]

You are right, they do go from one extreme to the other but that is not the definition of obesity. In the wild, they are forced to do this because if they didn't they would die. You really don't see the difference between this and feeding them all they will eat every day of their lives? How many rainforest monitors have you studied and shown to be obese. Have you calculated their average caloric intake compared to what they burn? Food doesn't just come to them even though it is more abundant. They still climb hundreds of vertical feet a day in the trees to find birds and bugs which is bound to burn more calories than those that travel across the ground. Other than animals that live near human habitation, obesity has never even been thought of as a problem in wild populations so I really don't see why you would even bring this up, other than keeping an argument going. Animals in captivity do not get NEARLY as much exercise as wild ones do and if you think that the two are even comparable, it just shows your lack of experience. All I have to do is bring up your statement about how you feed all the mice they will eat every day and any experienced keeper will tell you how stupid that is. Why don't you post some pictures of these supposedly healthy animals. I for one would like to see this.

This was my first response to this thread and I am pretty sure that it covers the topic fairly well. I know what the topic is but there is only so much that can be said about a problem that doesn't exist. Monitors in the wild do not get overweight, other than the ones such as the salvators that live near humans and feed on scraps. Like I said, animals that gorge themselves and then have to starve do not constitute being obese. It is a survival strategy, nothing more and lots of animals do it.

You are wrong, about nearly everything you have said. You are not going to convince anybody here that your way is right, especially concerning your diet choices. It is pure ignorance that is driving you, nothing more. I couldn't care less if you were trying to be an A#* because if you were making a valid point it would make sense. But you aren't. You are just trying to stir up the troops. Until you show me some animals I am going to continue not taking you seriously. Pictures speak a thousand words and I would rather see those than read your nonsense anymore.

[bighog85]

Sounds good Wayne, I am done with him anyways.

[mo9e64]

I don't regret the point i was trying to get across, just the way i did it.I'm sorry you didn't get anything from what i posted

[mo9e64]

earlier i read that someone didn't like KS,it does have the bickering,but it also has the widest range of hobbyists from beginner to advanced,i try to
use as many resources i can-this is definately the most unified sites i've been on,kinda like the republicans LOL sorry i watch alot of news.

[red ink]

The topic is wild monitor obesity which nobody has addressed other than energy has to equal intake,if there is more intake than energy exerted you get a fat monitor you get fat lizard which is true partly.If a monitors intake in the wild is more than it's energy expenditure-address that.What motive do i have to make up that i have monitors-i don't know you Big hog,other than the fact you take in Sav's for rescue that are kept properly kept other than being fed rodents ,then they die.Sav rescue has been the topic on another forum-of coarse i'm the narrow minded one ,sticking to one forum that doesn't stray from my comfort zone. I'm not saying you have to feed an exclusive rodent diet,but it's better,if you practice proper husbandry.Infernalis, come on-feeding your monitor sparingly-mimicking drought conditions so the monitor will store fat,of coarse he'll keep good weight.This is beating a dead horse-and it does make me sad that it hasn't been constructive-i meant well ,and have to work on my communication.This isn't about being right-that's just human ego,this is about monitors.I am just frustrated that none of this makes sense to you guys.Monitor husbandry hasn't evolved because of people limiting choices-Infernalis,most advanced keepers of monitors don't keep their monitors singly-i know that's just hippy heresy talk.

What exactly are you trying to find out be specific about the question and you will get specific answer.

Do monitors expend more than they intake generally yes, they do not give up unlike mamalian hunters and could chase down fast prey over longer periods than their mamalian counterparts. In a herpetological meeting I attended last year a footage was shown of Varanus giganteus running down and catching a rabbit over a distance of 300m.

Is there monitor obesiety in the wild YES, in places were they co-habitate with humans, live of refuse and their pressence is tolerated.

A limited or variant diet in captivity is PROPER husbandry, they are not exposed to wild conditions and do not have the range of teritory in captivity. This therefore affects dietary adjustments in captivity to maintain optimum health. As an example a male Varanus varius has a home range of 65km square while a female has 50km, how exactly are you going to replicate that in captive husbandry? As most large varanid species would have a range somewhere in this vacinity, it will bring us back to the point that in the wild intake is generally less than output or at least at a given balance where the specimen is "lean".

So to conclude varanid obesiety in the wild only happens in specific living conditions, is this the norm, DEFINITELY not. I have personally observe several large Australian varanid species in their teritory and I am yet to find one that is considered obese. Comparing wild conditions to captive husbandry is a moot point.

[infernalis]

earlier i read that someone didn't like KS,it does have the bickering,but it also has the widest range of hobbyists from beginner to advanced,i try to
use as many resources i can-this is definately the most unified sites i've been on,kinda like the republicans LOL sorry i watch alot of news.

To me the big problem with KS is how in the hell can anyone get much useful information when the "pros" are calling people "idiot" and such...

the good info is buried in the fighting.

hard to glean anything from it, unless you WANT to fight.


I refuse to name names, but I had a nice private talk with one of the few I have a great deal of respect for, he simply lost patience with the crap, so his advice is alway "buy Daniel Bennett's book"

[mo9e64]

yeah,i know what you mean infernalis-i like The Bennet book but i find it pretty basic.I wish Robert Faust's Nile Monitor book would get updated.KS is a lot of BS,but Jobi and FR(Frank Retes) are there to bring sanity.And fighting as i have shown is something an individual chooses to do.

And Red Ink,let's just agree to disagree

[red ink]

And Red Ink,let's just agree to disagree

Early morning where I am on the globe so I'm not really sure where the disagreement is mate??

[Damion930]

I believe he thinks its ok to feed his animal as much as it will eat based on monitors in the wild being able to eat whenever they want I am ofcours assuming because its kinda unclear if I am mistaken my apologies I just don't see the logic in it

[mo9e64]

Damien930 you don't have to speak like i'm not in the room LOL.I get it you don't understand my logic,it's okay.I am trying to make peace

[Damion930]

sorry mo9 not trying to pic a fight or anything

[infernalis]

Frank is hard to handle... no people skills.

He's one of the biggest fighters there, in fact I think they ran him off once.

[mo9e64]

I can see how people can have a problem with Frank,he's pissed me off-i just bite the bullet what you can learn from him far outweighs the abuse He's seen and heard everything and he just makes sense and the success to back him up.

[infernalis]

One thing he has is that most of us do not, he's in Arizona.

If I had the same spread of land that I do here, but located in Arizona, Chomper would have a massive roaming range and everything would be different.

I know what your saying, but the same information is widely available but without the condescending arrogance attached.