U.S. and Iraq

[Them and Us]

For anyone who has been paying attention to world news and this situation between Iraq and the United States. what are your different takes on the whole situation? I for one am opposed and can't figure out why Bush considers Iraq such a huge threat and recently denies North Korea as being a threat, especially when Iraq let the UN in for inspections and North Korea kicked them out and said basically "who cares we are going to make nuclear weapons anyway." Either way it is not our business to police the world. But the president seems to believe it is so. i could say so much more but I'll leave room for others ha.

[Geck-co]

I have not been following this situation but I do have some opinions on whats going on with this phreak you call bush. Bush wants to start a war... and that is what he is/has been aiming for this for awhile. Reasons why i think this. I have two main reasons. Bush is up for re election next year is it i belive? if so... a country in war is less likly to vote him out of office while the country is at war. I think that this has only happened once in history i belive it was England during the time of Winston Churchill. Another reason could be that a war would help hide the recession that the states is heading into. Just my 2 cents...

[Shane Tesser]

It probably boils down to the natural resources available. Iraq=oil, and i believe if they can basically control them, they can control their oil. Korea...im not really sure what they have i dont know much about them to be perfectly honest....but im doubting that they have anything as precious to the United States as oil.
So, get the troops all rallied up by screaming about defence and neuclear capabilities and in the mean time plan your real attack on deepening your pockets with more oil money. Just my opinion.

[Shane Tesser]

Oh, i should add...im totally against war...let the stupid politicians who start the crap in the first place duke it out...leave the innocent and uneducated alone to live their lives, propaganda as with every war rules here...be free thinking. PEACE!

[eyespy]

Seems to me his Daddy got real popular when fighting Iraq so he's carrying on family tradition. Just my opinion, though. Prolly not even worth 2 cents.

[sSNAKESs.com]

I think Bush is handling the situation very well.. What you see and hear from him on TV and what is actually going on are 2 differant things. I am all for the american way... "We do it our way.. if you dont like it.. to bad.."

[hip]

Well this is now a big open can of worms.Sadly it is a true state of affairs that is going to happen wether we wan't it to or not.I have been following this closely for a long time now and I have also been doing research on the situation.There are a few reasons why Bush is after Iraq but one you probably are un aware of.Saddam is the rebirth of Adolf Hitler pure evil(my opinion) he has gassed and murdered his own people! has women raped in public and continues to torture people seeking only to be free!Saddam is a student of Stalin and if you check history he has been a mirror of Josef Stalin in method and in brutality.



The biggest reason for this war (and yes it is coming very soon the middle of Feb I figure) is oil. Before you all riot and call for a firing squad hear me out.The war on terror is yet to be finished and will not be finished for some time here is the method to my reasoning.1 the biggest supplier of oil to the U.S right now is the Saudi's 2 Iraq has the second biggest reserve of oil in the world.3 the Saudi's have been for a long time supporters of terror funding and have been professional about hiding it .4 The U.S cannot afford to deal with the Saudi's untill a steady supply of oil is available(a U.S liberated Iraq) 5 Russia is 4-5 years away from being able to supply enough extra oil to off set a Saudi loss.



We my friends are on the cusp of a change in the evolution of all cultures on this world.It will be hard and it will be long and many will never come home, and many of us will ask why? and we will never get the anwser we want.Such is the way of things such is the way of humanity.



"It is said that the future is always born in pain.The history of war is the history of pain.If we are wise what is born of that pain,matures into the promise of a better world.Because we learn that we can no longer afford the mistakes of the past" (J M S)




I am a ranger!

"We walk the dark places were no one dare venture"
"We stand on the bridge and no one may pass" (m c )




Peace to all in the hour of the wolf



Hip

[nouserpif]

I am pretty much neutral towards the whole thing, but I think bush's attitude is funny...
It seems to me that hes thinking:
"If we find weapons, they are going to use them, SO LTS BOMB THEM! But if we don't find weapons, they are just hiding them.... LET'S BOMB THEM!"
So, overall I think that there shouldn't be a war, but bush REALLY wants one... You see, Canada stays pretty neutral in most wars it seems, like when there was all the fighting in afghanistan, we sent over a whole bunch of battleships and similar boats, to a place that isn't bloodywell touching the ocean! Anyway, Canada doesn't seem to do much, so we could bomb half the world before they realized it was us, people would be saying
"Hmmm... I wonder who is bombing us... Lets go to beautiful, nice canada!"
Yeah, jsut my ramblings...
DAn Conner

[Amazon Spice]

I am in complete agreement with Hip!! Another reason is probably that we still have N. Korea "in check". They are not nearly important, and I do believe it would take a truely evil being to use nuclear, chemical, or biological weapons on the US. It would have to be someone completely unafraid of the consequences. That rules out N. Korea, and puts the focus right on Iraq. Saddam needs to go.

[hip]

Wow I got to blastin on the Iraq thing and forgot about the North Korea thing.Well there are a few issues with the P D R K (peoples democratic republic of Korea) that we probably don't see as standing out(the news never tells the whole story).We all know of the war from 50 - 53. the armistice not true peace.The P D R K is one of the last communist bastions of the world(well that we all know)So given the information We have at hand I sugest the following.


In the cold war era !945 to 1989 the P D R K relied on the U S S R
and the P R C (Peoples republic of China) for the majority of trade, mutual defence treaties,supply of weapons and traning.Now in the years after the fall of the "iron curtain" substantial changes have been seen.1 Russa has become a free market society (not truly captialist but not comunist either) 2 economic hardship in Russa has led to decline in production but most important a huge decline in funding to the P D R K.3 China though we do not seem to see it is also slowly changing (not leaving comuninistic ideals but softening the hard line ) 4 we can see this with the change of the government of just the last month(new apointments to the places of power and controll) 5 The P D R K is like it or not a third world country who, in the last decade has had may droughts, floods and an on going famine.



The U S knows that the P D R K is trying to black mail for treaty's, trade,and economic aid.To reward them with such after the reicent events is a no go for sure.China wiill I beleive very soon step in and set this strait.The reasoning for this I have is. 1 China is one of the biggest suppliers of finished low cost products to not only Japan but south Korea as well( computers, auto, and consumer goods of marginal value) these products are assembled or re sold out of Japan and South Korea.2 Thusly the P D R K with its nuclear program and missle program presents a huge threat to the finiancal stability of a changing China.



I beleive it will be like a father punishing his son for being bad.China will soon spank The P D R K and make them tow the line once and for all and relations will change in the future as the P D R K changes to meet the times and the global union that is forth coming.


Sorry to bore you all to death just an opinnion from the gallery

Peace

happy new yer

Hip

[Geck-co]

not sure if i'm still up to date wtih what currently is going on with the issues as i said be4 but last i herd russia and china where not taking sides and if anything where going to be siding with iraq... so... that being said.. and the possibility of war between iraq and the states who is to say that russia/china/iraq/and korea and then whoever else jumps on the bandwagon... I know i'm prolly tlaking out my ying yang on this but who knows.. its a interesting thought i entertain from time to time.. its about time someone comes and knocks the states back into place, and help get thier heads outa thier butts. maby that time has come?

now i'm sure i'm goin to get flamed for my comments... go ahead feel free to flame away. these are just my opinions and just that, i havent claimed to know all in whats going on.. but like talking about what I do know.. or what little i know lol

[Quakezombie]

Wow now i know why his name is Hip,cause he got a radio strapped to his :p

For real though, Thanks Hip... As i was wondering why we had'nt "dealt" with N.Korea,but it seems they have their hands full already.
btw: I have a few British ICQ/game buddies that tell me things they hear on bbc news (that they figure i wont hear).

...and now for some comic relief

http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/1134battleship.jpg


:p :D

[Amazon Spice]

ROTFLMAO!!! The pic is just too much!! I've thought about moving to canada once this thing breaks loose!! LOL!

[Jeff_Favelle]

Its totally about oil It was with Big Bush, and it is with the Little Bush. Their family OWNS oil companies and they have extreme vested interest in this.

[Alicewave]

Bush is a freakin idiot. That's my take on it.

Can I just request that whatever your opinion, keep your comments about US citizens to yourselves. Many of the members here are from the US. I personally disagree completely with what Bush is doing. I just ask that we keep that in mind when saying such things as "we need to be knocked on our behinds" or whatever. I completely understand your point of view but Bush is one man doing what he wants in his best interest and no one elses and he does not necessarily represent the views of all US citizens.

(edited for clarity)

[Gorelith]

I think little bush is trying to out-do his daddy's legacy........I'm going to move to the northwest territories and develop solar ski-doos, screw oil corporations, long live the little guys who make non-corporate alternate powered vehicles :)

[Them and Us]

I just am not a fan of the US government. Wasn't a fan of Bush and I'm not a fan of the bushling. yeah someone said Sadaam has got to go. yes i agree. but do you really think they don't have someone who holds the same ideals already lined up for office as soon as sadaam is gone.

to whoever complained about complaints of americans. everybody hates us. I'm getting used to it sadly. everybody sees us as fat and stupid. ever read Neil Peart's Ghost Rider. he can't refer to americans without mentioning how fat they are. i still love Rush though.

i don't call myself American . US citizen. Chileans are americans too technically. so are Canadians etc etc.. all live in the Americas. My father got kind of scoffed at at the canadian border ,ha, by the guards for saying he was american. they were right though. so were they.

[krrc]

I dont have anything to add I just wanted to say that picture is great LOL:D :D

[Canadaherp]

war is necessary we'll help control some of our population and by the time theyre done the next generation should be ready to start fights with other countries therefore reducing the worlsd populatio nothing wrong there

[paul_le_snake]

the fact that the bushes are texan oil tycoons says alot, but as we all know every republican president loves to flex his muscles just to show how big and bad america is. remember Lybia? col. kaddaffi, trouble with cuba.
only difference is that this time the target is a real threat to humanity, maybe not just by himself, but with the real enemies that the us has built up over the years. it should be pointed out that osama bin laden was trained by the states to help afghanistan in their war against the ussr.
If war does break out then i for one am laying a brick. the "technology" is so far superior to anything that we can imagine. nerve gas can be used with terrifying results. is any country safe???? no. but it would seem that america has dug itself into a hole on this one. even my mate tony blair hs been hesitant to go all out and bomb iraq.
personally i hate "W" bush he seems as competent as the rats i have in my freezer. but he must have some sort of charm to convince millions of ppl that he was the one to lead them.
changing the subject a little, any ideas y he vetoed the kyoto treaty?????? texan oil family.
cheers
paul

[Amazon Spice]

Originally posted by Canadaherp
war is necessary we'll help control some of our population and by the time theyre done the next generation should be ready to start fights with other countries therefore reducing the worlsd population nothing wrong there
I could not agree more! War, murder, abortion.... all are forms of population control. We all hope it won't happen to us, but everyone comes and goes for a reason! Without them, the world would be hurtling even faster towards oblivion!

[paul_le_snake]

in the end mother nature will always find a way........over the centuries we hv\ave had many fatal diseases and viruses....smallpox..bubonic plague....common cold...influenza....all of these now have vacinnations, but how long will it be before ppl will be shocked to learn that ppl died from cancer or hiv? once humankind finds a cure nature finds another way we now seem to have a real threat from the ebola virus. but, with the advancement of technology ppl do live longer, more babies make it through the first year. so what can nature do to make a stable medium? does it all come down to nature? has nature made these ppl that invent new ways of mass destruction? is it all natural progression that one day someone somewhere will invent a way to completly destry the earth with the flick of a button? how long away is that?
intersting point about population control, ys war does kill thousands of ppl a year and ruins the life of millions, but instead of getting rid of a billion or two ppl, we (humans in general) need to realise that no matter what we do now, our next generation will rely on our decisions. the whole etos of todays society seems to be one of single minded ignorance. look out for number one and all that crap.
sometimes i wonder what it would be like to be a person that hsa so much control over the planets future. could someone be that blind as to have no care for following generations?well it looks like they don't give a flying f**k
cheers
paul

[krrc]

wow, good post i agree

[Them and Us]

Paul. i like you haha. especialy for bringing up the Kyoto treaty. how stupid to veto that. i have so much to say and no time to say it. i think i may stop for now. i need to research more. I'm just very anti-war. Can't help it. its in me. i just don't have the desire to command and conquer like the politicians. how did the cat get so fat?

[Quakezombie]

My view:

The idea of any war is insane i agree,but so is any fistfight any of us have ever been in.
Ever had you car keyed by someone you KNOW cant afford to pay for it ?
What if a guy down the street broke your baby sisters arm?

My point ?
Sometime around mid to late 90's while in N.Y ( I live in N.C.) a friend and i went into the South Tower trying to get to the top.
We only made it a little over halfway before we got the urge to go look out a window and got pegged as tourists by security.

OUT we went,by the time we got to the door you would have thought we had been caught with a bomb ourselves (Massive security waiting downstairs)

The cause for this (obviously) was the previous attack on these buildings.

Now take my earlier simile about the broken arm scenario:
What if the same guy that broke your sisters arm killed her ?

As far as Iraq's oil:
I wont sit here and deny that the U.S. wants/needs the oil,but take this into consideration as well.
Everything Saddam has that is worth any value can be used to fund terrrorist cells (and will be in my opinion).

I have more ,but ive ranted enough for now.

[Lizzy]

OK...War just plain scares the crap out of me. I have a good friend in the military and I would be devistated if he were to be sent overseas to fight in a war. I also have a boyfriend living in Ottawa and I am nervous about something happening that would make another contry want to take out our nation's capital. I have been trying not to pay close attention to it because I get to upset...especially after the whole trade center thing. Sure sadam is an *******, and sure I think he needs to be kicked out of his position, but I don't think Bush should be so worried about trying to make sadam behave himself. Maybe Bush should be comcentrating on not pissing off sudam so that the US and it's allies aren't targets of any weapons that he might be making.

[eyespy]

I come from a family with several folks in the military and my brothers are both draftable so the thought of war scares me senseless. One of the patients in the doctors' office where I worked was shot down and taken hostage during Desert Storm under Papa Bush. Nobody in the US is very far from military ties it seems, and most of the citizens I know wonder why it is our job to remove the terrorists. We certainly weren't chosen as the world's police force.

We are certainly not the only country which has suffered attacks, although 9/11 was very shocking in its brutality and senselessness. I still strongly wonder if intelligence has uncovered plans for another attach which make us so intent on moving in, or if once again we've taken it upon ourselves to police the world.

The oil aspect plays heavily as well. Horrible acts were carried out in the former Yugoslavia, in Rwanda, in Somalia, yet we were very late in acting and really just worked to keep the people from rioting rather than trying to overthrow the leadership there. Is it truly our oil interests which make Iraq so different? I'm afraid that it is. Why else would we go after the country with the greatest assets and probably a large stockpile of chemical, biological and nuclear weapons?

Again, just my opinion. Mostly generated by fear for my uncle, 3 cousins, and 2 brothers safety as well as the safety of all who have volunteered to serve our country.

[josefg]

I agree with Shane when he said that Bush wants to attack Iraq because of the availabilty of natural resources and not because Bush feels that the United States really need to police the globe.

If Mr. Bush would really like to police the globe why doesn't he interfere in Palestine where the land of the Palestines is being stolen from them by the Israelis who altough wouldn't really pose a threat for the United States, are not really humane when they attack the refuge camps or when they fire from a tank on a teenage kid that is throwing a rock at them. When I see this, I have to beleive two things:
1. The United States only police the globe when profit is involved.
2. They are afraid of the Israelis.
IMO, if they police the globe when only profits are involved, they should refrain from using the word "police" and just declare war on the country involved.

Also as for the Afghanistan campaign, the United States may have did a good thing when they removed the Taliban goverment, however I think that while watching the news bullettins, I missed the part where the US soldiers destroyed the things related to Opium production (including the burining of the fields where the poppies are grown). Like I already said, I could have missed that part, however one has to keep in mind the price Opium gets on the market.

Just my humble opinion. Like Alicewave said, this critism (attack?) is directed to the administration and not to any citizen of the United States.

[Lizzy]

Here's an idea...why not poar all of the resources that Bush is using to pick on iraq into developing the oil free energy technologies that are already being developed. It would be beneficial to the environment and they wouldn't need to go after a country with so much oil.

[frogman]

It think it is very interesting that Bush has Chosen to fight with iraq about it's "weapons of mass distruction" which that can't even really prove that Iraq has any. Yet he refuses to even consider fighting Vietnam over the nuclear weapon it has and it admits to having them.

It would seem to me that Bush needs a war to keep him president (no president has ever lost an election during a time of war). He wants to fight Iraq because really he knows that they are no threat to him.

Also Just as a side note what right do americans have to say anything about other people have weapons of mass destruction ?? like they don't have Nuclear Chemical and Biologial Weapons armed and ready to fire ?? cuz I really don't believe that for a second.

Charles

[Alicewave]

And what about the weapons of mass destruction the US has? Maybe someone else needs to police Bush. I have no idea what we have for wepons but I know we've got em.

[gunnerslakeshor]

My take on the whole thing is that goverments american and canadian alike make decisions based on what (they) want not what the people of each country want.
Its always been this way as long as there have been beaurocrate's they say jump we say how high there over fed over payed under worked ***'s arent at stake here its you me our familys and friends wholl pay the price there safe in there tax payed for bunkers and will emerge unhurt after the dust settle's.
So take my thoughts on this sorry mess for what its worth personally i dont think im far off the mark but its my opinion
Sorry if it offends anyone.
Phil

[reverendsterlin]

I must say that the US sticking it's nose into everyone else's policy and economics is horrible. We have used our military, economic, and political power to manipulate people and governments around the world including the use of US military against US citizens. If some country came up an told us to stop our neuclear, chemical, or biological programs (I firmly believe we have all three), we would react even nastier than anyone else has.
Bush said how successfull his year was!? no al-quida, no ben laudin, no hussien, economy sucks, unemployment sucks, medical care availability sucks, he backed off ecology issues, gave more breaks to the elite earning bracket, got caught flat footed when his corporate buddies got caught with their hands in the till, and has ignored (except elite issues) class issues both nationally and internationally.

[Alicewave]

Amen Rev

[josefg]

Well said Rev!!

[Simon R. Sansom]

Let's not forget where the Iraqi's got the raw materials for their biological weapons program...AMERICA.
Let's not forget that AMERICA supported Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war.
Let's not forget that AMERICA has used it's own soldiers to evaluate the effects of radiation during nuclear tests.

It's all about OIL, people. Bush says that it's about freedom and liberty for the Iraqi people, but that's not the case. If he does "liberate" Iraq, he'll install some U.S.-controlled puppet to govern the country and make sure that the oil flows cheap and plentiful, and meanwhile the poor, average, "liberated" Iraqi will be no better off.
Okay folks, after years and years of following world events, I have arrived at this conclusion, and it's the bottom line on this situation...
Unfortunately, like it or not, our world economies are based on the Internal Combustion Engine, which requires oil and gasoline. Until we can develope alternatives to the "I.C.E." the Western world will be dependent upon the oil producing nations.
If Bush would just come clean and publically state that "it's about the oil" and quit using "freedom" and "liberty" as his rallying cries, then perhaps I'd support this business venture.

Just my humble opinion.

Happy New Year Everyone!

Simon

[sheri]

Just wondering if anyone here has read any Noam Chomsky.
If not, I would suggest:
"Understanding Power"
or
"Hegemony or Survival".

Both clearly illustrate some of the gigantic problems that the global economy is facing as a result of many factors, with American government (regardless of partisan politics) being the catalyst.

[RepTylE]

I agree that it has all been about oil. Once the big oil companies replenish their stockpiles with the (now ) lower priced oil, they will start up the crap again that will force the price up again and sell at a tremendous profit. The US has been hugging the Chinese and have them to keep north korea in check. After all who would want a couple billion chinese screaming for their blood? China is making contacts in order to build up their economy and given that the US is a large consumer of goods. China is going to want to keep in their good books (within reason).
Still the international stage requires alot of smooth handling these days and I would not be convinced that the Bush administration is up to the challenge.

[Slannesh]

Necroposting aside (this thread was dead for nearly 2 years before the last two posts) Doesn't anyone read the Terms of Service anymore?

Political and Religious discussion is specifically not allowed. I don't really care what anyone's political bent is but I really shouldn't have to read political opinions on this site since i'm not allowed to post my own :)

[BOAS_N_PYTHONS]

SLANNESH:

AMEN...........and war sucks.

Cya...

Tony

[DragnDrop]

Lets re-bury this thread. I don't know why it was even dug up to begin with, but it's going back where it came from.