Live Vs. F/T feeding

[Xanafein]

currently weighing the pros and cons of live feeding against frozen/thawed, my JCP is a very picky eater, ive tried getting her to go for thawed food, but she wont have it, so i feed her live, ive looked around and there seems to be a divide on this subject on other sites, i was simply wondering what everyones opinions where, and how they developed those opinions.

I prefer live, no matter how freshly frozen a mouse or rat is, nutrients are always lost in the freezing process, and i have a difficulty getting my JCP to go for F/T, however with live, she hits it as soon as it passes under her, and its usually dead within a minute or two max of its entering her cage/feedbox

[infernalis]

There are pros and cons both ways.

My personal feelings are that if you always supervise and never leave until the job is complete, then do what works for you.

It's the people who toss a live rat in with a snake and leave or go to bed that wind up with injured or dead snakes.

Even the mightiest python will not fight back when the rat decides that the only food in the cage is your snake.

I went off on a guy once for leaving a rat with a ball python over a whole weekend. It was in his tattoo parlor and when he locked up shop on Friday the rat was still running around in the pythons cage, when he opened up an Monday morning, the rat was still running around in the DEAD pythons cage.

He did not provide a bowl of food for the rat, so when the rat got hungry enough it started on the only food source available to it, the poor BP.

[Jenn_06]

i hate feeding live but sometimes you have to, have you tried P/K rats? if you have to feed live you need to supervise. here is a link what rats can do to your snake...
Thinking about feeding LIVE? Welcome to the Live Pile - Redtailboa.net (http://www.redtailboa.net/forums/feeding/15585-thinking-about-feeding-live-welcome-live-pile.html)

[hauntedone]

I have always feed all of my animals live. Like others have said it requires supervision and some times a little assistance. What I do is keep some pencils/sticks or some other kind of "tools". If the mouse's mouth is able to reach the snakes body, i place somethin it it's mouth to bite on. Same thing with the feet. I place a pencil/stick by it's feet as something it can use to try to push its way away from the snake. When it no longer has the strength to cause harm to the snake I stand back and observe until it's completely dead.

[nanna]

I posted a while ago asking the same thing and got quite a response
Here is the title (sorry I don't know how to post a link) ?frozen vs live


http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/food-thought-forum/84367-frozen-vs-live.html

Edit: Link added.

[Serpantstrike]

I feed live. I enjoy watching the feeding process so supervision is constant. If a rat starts gnawing on my snake I simply take my feeding clamps and squeeze it's head till it's dead or leverage it's mouth away from the snake. I think live feeding satisfies a snake's natural urg to hunt and kill. Plus it's the most exciting thing my snakes have to do. feeding them something dead is like a waitress bringing you something two weeks past it expiration date, you can eat it if your realy hungry but you prefer it to be fresh.

I support supervised live feeding.

[Lankyrob]

You can still entice a snakes hunting urge and predatory nature with a F/t prey item - and it is a lot less dangerous for the snake.

[infernalis]

Plus it's the most exciting thing my snakes have to do. feeding them something dead is like a waitress bringing you something two weeks past it expiration date, you can eat it if your realy hungry but you prefer it to be fresh.

I support supervised live feeding.

No disrespect, but snakes do not have the cerebral capacity to feel any sense of "excitement"

There "emotions" are rather limited to the pre-programmed instinct to feed, reproduce, thermoregulate and avoid predators, that's about it.

When I shake a thawed out rat on the end of the feeding tongs, my snakes strike the dead prey just as vigorously as if it were alive. ;)

[kenchenzo]

i don't think it's right to feed a live myself.
just not worth the risk to the snake.
but that's just me.

[Xanafein]

Honestly i dont see much risk in it, i observe closely with a nake hook and feeding tongs available to step in if there is any sign of trouble, but considering sweets took out an adult mouse before the little bugger new what hit him/her im not to worried, now if i had a snake eating something like say a rabbit i would probably use fresh killed

[Xanafein]

*EDIT*


Just read the live pile, and WTF man, a warning woulda been nice, that is a ****ed up link to post without warning, and ill admit, there are hazards to feeding live, and once my carpet starts eating something that i cant control with my interventions she will be eating fresh killed or disabled, but ive seen how fast and hard my snake strikes, since i started watching her at the breeders home till her last feeding, she has never missed a strike, and never faild to lock the creatures head down, Nutrients are lost in the freezing process so untill the risks (bites scratches ect.) out weigh the benefits i will feed live, once she gets to the point where she is taking adult rats i will be offering fresh killed, then F/T, because at that point intervention beomes rather difficult, i do not apreciate being linked to that disgusting horror thread without warning

[Lankyrob]

I dont see that link as a "horror" thread, in my opinion it is a graphic but necessary warning to all that want to feed their reptiles live prey. Without seeing what can happen some people wont take notice of the warnings.

[Xanafein]

I dont see that link as a "horror" thread, in my opinion it is a graphic but necessary warning to all that want to feed their reptiles live prey. Without seeing what can happen some people wont take notice of the warnings.


I agree its intended to be a Warning, But had i known that there were going to be images of ball pythons and other snake with bites so bad their spine was visible, i wouldnt have gone to it.

That thread should have its title changed, to something like this

The Live Pile, The risks of live feeding *WARNING GRAPHIC CONTENT*

the thread has a valid point, and makes its arguement well, but with such carnage displayed a warning should be put on it


and im well aware of the damage a rat could do, as i had to help my best freind rehab his Adult Ball python after a rat nearly took its eye out

[DeesBalls]

I feed all frozen except my bp who won't eat f/t, or pre killed... I've tried sever attempt at f/t, and once at pre killed, and I will never kill a mouse again just to get rid of out side, waste of money and waste of a life....

When I feed my bp I do in cage, 2 small rats every two works or so. I stand right by with tongs and gloves ready to intervene. I hate feeding live, but I honestly think In my case it won't touch f/t so the snakes got to eat. I prefer frozen just because its a whole lot easier and cheaper, but she just won't taje it.

I use to feel bad feeding live, but know its just a part of life.

Also I want to add as long as a live feeding is supervised all should be okay, there may be a few nick and scratches occasionally so there is a risk.....

I am rambling on so I should end this...

[Serpantstrike]

lets just take note...that link was about a snake that was left ALONE with a rat for three days. thats just a bad snake owner. The snake wasnt hungry so the rat ate the snake. unless you have a show snake that needs to avoid scars or scratches i see nothing wrong with live. in the past 3 years of having my 10 year old corn she has only eaten live and so far she has gotten... 3 tiny bite marks on the surface of her skin. I just put on some snake bite anti-bacterial and it heals and dissapears in a week or so. snakes have been surviving eating live mice and rats since before we even evolved enough to domesticate them. i guess some people love their snakes so much they fear them feeling any pain or discomfort but trust me, to the snake it's not a big deal.

im not going to pretend i know best but not once have i ever put my snakes in danger by feeding live. if the prey causes damage to a snake then its likely the prey is too big. at the very least I will suffocate a large rat prior to feeding if i feel unsure. but the F/T idea has allways been a waste of money and warm water for me. my snake looks at me like im ******** and i totally get why she wouldnt want some bloated stiff smelly thing.

anyways im done with my rant :D

[Xanafein]

i was refering more to a BP that was left alone with a starved rat over night, and had to be put down because so many sections of flesh was gone, the spine was exposed and knaawed on, i would have liked a warning before that horror show, i observe all my feedings as well strike

[candyraver69]

There is a bit more to how nutritious a prey item is than if it's been frozen or not. You might want to consider the quality diet that rodents eat at places that mass breed and freeze rodents compared to what your live ones are eating.

If you buy them from a store live, you might find out what they are actually eating. If you are breeding your own, what type of food are you feeding them?

I looked into rodentpro to find out what their feeders eat and they are given a very high quality diet. If you buy live at a local petshop you could be buying an unhealthy specimen that has less nutrients to begin with than a frozen has left after freezing and thawing. Also consider the parasites and such that could piggyback on your feeder and get at your snake.

Let me also tell you, breaking up a strike-gone-wrong isn't fun either. Trying to stun a rodent biting your snake without hurting the snake in the process isn't exactly simple sometimes with the snake attempting to strangle it.

I personally think feeding f/t is better because there is NO risk the snake can be injured, its more convenient (even though I will breed my own, freezing will allow me to save up just the right sizes I need instead of having an inconsistent size and supply). So that's what's best for me.

What is best for you may be different, but if nutrition is the sole reason you are choosing live you may want to make sure the live prey you are feeding are in fact nutritious and free of any disease, and keep doing what you're doing watching the entire feeding because it doesn't take long for something bad to happen if you leave the room.

No matter what anyone says, I'm sure most people that feed live do it because it excites them. These people NOTHING you tell them will convince them otherwise, they want to watch a snake eat and that's what they are going to do. Eventually it will get boring and they can teach the snake to eat f/t. I was one of those people with my first snakes but eventually I figured out what a hassle it was and listened to the people I should have in the first place.

[Xanafein]

I thank you for your post candy, it was one of te more informative ones ive seen, i get my feeders from a freind of mine who feeds them a mix of various oats and grains, ill ask him next time i pick one up exactly what that mix is, i do enjoy watching my snake feed, but its just as entertaining to wiggle a fresh killed in front of her and watch her go for that, ive yet to have much luck with F/T though

my plan is this, ill switch her to rats using live rat pups and fuzzies, then once she takes rat consistantly, ill start going pre kill, then begin efforts to switch to F/T

[marvelfreak]

There is a bit more to how nutritious a prey item is than if it's been frozen or not. You might want to consider the quality diet that rodents eat at places that mass breed and freeze rodents compared to what your live ones are eating.

If you buy them from a store live, you might find out what they are actually eating. If you are breeding your own, what type of food are you feeding them?

I looked into rodentpro to find out what their feeders eat and they are given a very high quality diet. If you buy live at a local petshop you could be buying an unhealthy specimen that has less nutrients to begin with than a frozen has left after freezing and thawing. Also consider the parasites and such that could piggyback on your feeder and get at your snake.

Let me also tell you, breaking up a strike-gone-wrong isn't fun either. Trying to stun a rodent biting your snake without hurting the snake in the process isn't exactly simple sometimes with the snake attempting to strangle it.

I personally think feeding f/t is better because there is NO risk the snake can be injured, its more convenient (even though I will breed my own, freezing will allow me to save up just the right sizes I need instead of having an inconsistent size and supply). So that's what's best for me.

What is best for you may be different, but if nutrition is the sole reason you are choosing live you may want to make sure the live prey you are feeding are in fact nutritious and free of any disease, and keep doing what you're doing watching the entire feeding because it doesn't take long for something bad to happen if you leave the room.

No matter what anyone says, I'm sure most people that feed live do it because it excites them. These people NOTHING you tell them will convince them otherwise, they want to watch a snake eat and that's what they are going to do. Eventually it will get boring and they can teach the snake to eat f/t. I was one of those people with my first snakes but eventually I figured out what a hassle it was and listened to the people I should have in the first place.
So very well put. I to use to be one of them people. Until a mouse half the size of what my RTB would usually eat bite it on the neck and killed it. All it takes is a split second and you could have a dead snake. It's not hard to switch snakes over to f/t. Just stop feeding your snake for a month then try a f/t if it don't eat wait a couple weeks and try again. Eventually they will get hunger enough they'll eat. It's worked for all my snake. Any more when i get a new baby snake i start them on f/t.

[DeesBalls]

lets just take note...that link was about a snake that was left ALONE with a rat for three days. thats just a bad snake owner. The snake wasnt hungry so the rat ate the snake.

that too is what i wanted to say as well, i feed live and i dont leave the rat in the cage for 3 days!

thats irresponsible owner, and hate to say this, but not the rats fault either...

[Deej85]

Could someone please point me toward the source that says live animals contain more nutrients then dead ones? Does a frozen hamburger have less nutrients then one that has never been frozen?

Where did all the nutrients go when it died?

[Ch^4]

i guess some people love their snakes so much they fear them feeling any pain or discomfort but trust me, to the snake it's not a big deal.


I am certainly not trying to be rude or initiate an argument, but there is no way that pain or discomfort is "not a big deal" to any animal (humans are exceptions), especially an animal you are willing to call your pet. Simply put, you should respect your pet.

I am not saying to those who feed live (as I did too in the past) that you should stop feeding live. It's your preference and as long as you are responsible and pay constant attention, go for it. What I don't appreciate is the fact that you disregard the animals well-being. We have no idea what is going on in their heads, but I am confident they do not in any way, shape or form, appreciate being attacked by their prey, no matter the severity of the attack.

Regardless of if you feed in the cage or in a separate enclosure, natural hunting behavior is not being exhibited by the snake. To my knowledge (I welcome corrections and I am by no means an expert), a snakes hunting behavior is that of ambushing their prey; they are not typically confined in an area with their prey (again, please correct me if I'm mistaken).

Someone posted a video earlier of a juvenile corn snake being attacked by a praying mantis; I'm pretty sure he or she did not enjoy that event...

[kenchenzo]

if you worry about nutrients and that put some nutribal or calci-dust in the mouth of the f/t mouse/rat.

[Lankyrob]

The praying mantis attacking a corn snake was a wild event caught on camera i think - not someone putting a mantis in with their captive corn - its a totally different situation.

[Jenn_06]

sorry i did not put a warning label on the link, but just wanted you all see what can happen and yes the rat was in there for 3 days but it can take 1sec for a adult rat to hurt or kill your snake.

[candyraver69]

Could someone please point me toward the source that says live animals contain more nutrients then dead ones? Does a frozen hamburger have less nutrients then one that has never been frozen?

Where did all the nutrients go when it died?

actually yes. a frozen re-heated food does have less nutrients than raw. anything that we do to food before we eat it whether its adding stuff, thawing it, microwaving it or anything causes proteins to begin breaking down, and other such things that our bodies don't absorb it the same way. hence all the "raw food" fanatics. fruits and veggies are far more venerable than meat but it still happens. it's not that the nutrients "go somewhere" it's that the composition changes inside the food.

but once again, there isn't much nutrition to lose if you are starting with a malnourished rodent in the first place. there has to be nutrients in there in the first place to lose them.

and yes, some of the powders and things you can add to the rodent can be great supplements if you are worried about nutrition, but do keep in mind vitamins are never quite the same as the real thing. our bodies don't absorb very much of vitamin powders or pills because the composition is different, especially calcium. snakes aren't any different. best thing is to have a healthy rodent in the first place, and freezing isn't going to hurt the nutrients so much, it's the re-heating that does. DO NOT microwave them if you are worried about it, that is the WORST way to prepare food. bagging and putting in scalding hot water is the best method for f/t.

[candyraver69]

a little OT but somewhat relevant to the point of food changing:

I have an allergy to fresh produce. I cannot eat ANY fresh fruit or vegetable or my mouth breaks out in hives and my airway starts closing up. However, I can eat canned or frozen fruits or vegetable as much as I want. The fresher the produce, the worse the reaction is. If I were to go pick an apple off a tree and take a bite the reaction is horrendous. How is that possible? The enzymes in the food break down the proteins in the food as it ripens, causing the composition to change. This is why rat food that's been sitting on a shelf for 2-3 years has almost no nutritional value. Cooking food speeds this process because of the heat involved. It's just like how you can get sugar to dissolve faster in kool-aid if you use hot water and stir it. Heat makes the ?nuerons? (been a while since I took chemistry I think that is the correct word but I could be wrong) move faster something and they combine quicker.

[infernalis]

Neurons are electrochemical cells that transmit signals (AKA nerves)

I think neutrons (atomic particles) may have been the word you were looking for.

The problem with cooking veggies is that it breaks down enzymes, sugars and naturally occurring starch causing reactions that also break down certain vitamins.

Properly flash frozen foods (including feeder rodents) actually preserves these essential nutrients.

The breakdown process has far more effect on vegetable matter than it does meat tissues.

I cannot be certain, but I don't recall any nutritional studies performed on frozen rodents VS live rodents.

If so, someone please direct me there, I would be fascinated to see it. ;)

[Ch^4]

The praying mantis attacking a corn snake was a wild event caught on camera i think - not someone putting a mantis in with their captive corn - its a totally different situation.

I agree that it's a completely different situation. I wanted to reference the video to just give an example of a snake being attacked, regardless of if it was in captivity or in the wild. I was just trying to verify my comment that animals do not like pain.

[candyraver69]

Neurons are electrochemical cells that transmit signals (AKA nerves)

I think neutrons (atomic particles) may have been the word you were looking for.

The problem with cooking veggies is that it breaks down enzymes, sugars and naturally occurring starch causing reactions that also break down certain vitamins.

Properly flash frozen foods (including feeder rodents) actually preserves these essential nutrients.

The breakdown process has far more effect on vegetable matter than it does meat tissues.

I cannot be certain, but I don't recall any nutritional studies performed on frozen rodents VS live rodents.

If so, someone please direct me there, I would be fascinated to see it. ;)

yeah might be neutrons, definitely not neurons now that you point that out lol.

I don't recall any studies on the matter of frozen vs thawed nutrition either but I have seen studies about heating methods for human food causing nutrition loss. You freeze something, you have to thaw it somehow. If you just let it sit at room temperature till it thaws that increases the chance for rapid bacteria multiplication, so you have to defrost it fairly quickly.

Yes you are correct meats are far less effected than veggies, but meat still looses some, protein and fat being the greatest percentage of loss. A large portion of the loss of nutrients in meat is from the liquids that come out. Having meat in soup or something you wouldn't lose that, but by grilling or boiling meat in water that won't be ingested you lose that. I'm sure you've noticed a little bit of liquid come off of f/t when you prepare them. Or how about if you take frozen chicken or beef and thaw it in the fridge, all that juice that leaks all over the package.

Like I said, I am on the f/t side, but just trying to show the pros and cons of both. I'm willing to bet the rodentpro and other similar companies f/t's have more nutrients left in them after the freezing and thawing than most live feeders have to begin with. Unless you are getting live feeders from someone you are certain feeds a nutritionally balanced diet to the rodents you just can't beat quality like that. If the rodent is eating grain mix from petco or petsmart, the food the rodent is getting has almost no nutritional value because it's been harvested and packaged YEARS ago.

Ideally buying a fresh rodent from someone who feeds a perfect diet and gives the rodents good exercise would yield the absolute highest nutrition... but even then- I would stun/prekill just before feeding to the snake because of the biting and scratching risk.

[infernalis]

Please don't ever think I'm a combative sort, I just think things over too much ;)

[candyraver69]

Please don't ever think I'm a combative sort, I just think things over too much ;)

haha right there with you. I have been told my analytics are way over the top at times :P